Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping => Invertebrates - Shrimps and Snails => Topic started by: Sue on August 04, 2013, 03:06:49 PM
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I'm starting this new thread as a follow on from my thread in the plant section (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,389.0.html). Since it's gone completely off the subject of plants I thought I'd better do something.
Quick summary:
I have had problems keeping cherry shrimp alive in my 50 litre tank. I was down to the last three (a berried female - that is, one carrying eggs - and two juveniles). Two weeks ago I set up my quarantine tank and moved them there together with some decor from the 50 litre.
One juvenile died a week and a half ago, and the berried female died last weekend with no sign of eggs in the corpse. I put the last juvenile back in the 50 litre and was clearing the QT when I discovered both baby shrimps and baby pygmy cories - the adults must have laid eggs in one of the plastic plants I moved over.
Now:
A week on and I can't find a single baby cory. They went missing overnight midweek. There are no bodies either, but between the baby shrimp and the tiny ramshorn snails, I don't think there would be much left to find.
But I do have a lot of baby cherry shrimps. I'm doing a daily water change using airline tubing as a siphon tube, and before I empty the bucket, I scoop the water into a small tub to check for babies. It takes ages, going through the water a scoop at a time. Today I had hoovered up 2 babies. There are less and less in the bucket now. Possible reasons
A. there are less of them
B. they are getting bigger and can swim away from the current going into the tube
C. they are getting bigger and I can see them better to avoid them.
I have been finding quite a few tiny shed skins in the scoops of bucket water, so that's a hopeful sign.
I'm using a 50:50 mix of new water and water from the 50 litre to refill the tank. The reason for using water from the 50 litre is that is the tank they'll be going in when they are big enough, so I want to make sure they can cope with the water in there with any bugs that are in it. That was the most likely cause of the bought ones dying - bugs in my tank they had no immunity to.
In the tank with them are 2 algae ridden plastic plants from the 50 litre tank, and a piece of wood with java fern attached. I shook the spherical plastic plant thoroughly mid week so I could swap it with the other one in the 50 litre, and loads of shrimps came out. In addition to the algae on the plants and micro-organisms on the wood, I'm giving them crushed Hikari Shrimp Cuisine - and by crushed, I mean pulverised into a powder with a mortar and pestle. I'm also adding Beta G to the tank on a weekly basis. I have the toe of a knee high sock over the filter so they don't get sucked in, and they have started grazing on that, so there must be something growing on it.
Fingers crossed they don't all go the way of the shop bought shrimps!
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Aww, I'll definitely keep my fingers crossed for you, can't wait to see pics of them when they're a little bigger.
I'd say the reason you are seeing fewer of them in the small tub is because they are getting bigger, you can see them better, and they can avoid the siphon better.
It'll be interesting to see how they get on. :)
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Hi Sue,
I am happy to know that my advice has helped and at least you have some baby shrimps... Who knows matbe in time you may move towards more challending kinds of shrimp... :)
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Hi Natalia,
If you pop back in and read this:
Is it OK to add some water from the 50 litre when filling up after a water change? Am I right that it will help build up immunity to whatever is in the 50 litre for when they get big enough to go in there? I am using new water as well, not 100% old water. That and using decor from the 50 litre. I should add the tank is bare bottomed - should I put sand in it? It is easier to clean it without any......
Is algae on the plastic plants, micro-organisms on the wood and powdered Hikari Shrimp Cuisine enough for them to eat? Should I be feeding something else in addition/instead?
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Congratulations Sue! I haven't lost any shrimp recently either :-) After the move will look into buying more shrimp and hoping for babies!
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I've just done the water change on the QT and found 2 newly hatched cories. That's one reason for swapping the two spherical plastic plants back and forth with the 50 litre. The cories lay eggs in these plants, and I know that they often spawn after a water change if you use cold water as it simulates the melt water coming down from the mountains in spring. I swapped the plants the day after last week's water change on the 50 litre.
The reason for the daily water changes is just so I can hoover the mess off the bottom of the QT. It's surprising just how much appears in 24 hours between uneaten food and the digestive system of baby shrimps and those tiny ramshorn snails.
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Congratulations Sue! I haven't lost any shrimp recently either :-) After the move will look into buying more shrimp and hoping for babies!
??? Shrimps.... or do I need to start knitting? ;D
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Hi Sue,
Well, I popped back in – for you and your shrimplets! :)
Right, first of all, everything I will say should only be related to Cherry Shrimps. Even though the broader Neocaridina genus and related Yellow, Blue, White Pearl, Red and Blue Rili ones are very close to Cherry Shrimps, these morphs are even more selectively bread... As for other dwarf shrimps – this gets more and more complicated. Although the fundamental principles are the same, each of them is more complicated care wise – and the more expensive a shrimp is, the more complicated care is. So, for the advice you will be giving to other people in the future – I have no doubt you will! :) – I would limit this to Cherry Shrimps only...
Well, a disclaimer is done... Sorry.
Well, I think so far your routine with them is pretty much O.K.
A couple of notes. Biofilm and microorganisms are a very important part of the diet of dwarf shrimps (and especially shrimplets). They would not survive without it. Substrate is the media providing this better than anything else. Prolific shrimps’ poo actually serves as a perfect food for those microorganisms which are so important for shrimps’ diet (the amazing act of nature – yet another one!). Every time I disturb substrate in my tanks with dwarf shrimps they go absolutely bonkers – a festival, a Christmas dinner and a party combined. This is because they graze on substrate constantly anyway, and when I disturb it they have soo much new supply of loved and very much needed food... So, although I know some people keep them in bare tanks, ideally they like some substrate. As you are keeping them in that tank only temporarily, it’s up to you to decide what you want to do – they should be O.K. for a while and substrate is only valuable when it is mature anyway... The fact that you put artificial plants and wood from the “main” tank in is great – there will be biofilm there. Mind you, they will strip it off very quickly... Although some fresh supply is meant to keep on growing...
Doing water changes with 50/50 water – I think it is a very good idea. The shrimplets will get used to the water they will be in. I think this should work (theoretically) but in any case it is the best what can be done. The Hikari shrimp food powdered as you do is also fine (one of better brands).
So all things considered I think you have done whatever can be done, really... Now it is down to the shrimplets’ genes about the survival....
Long term ahead – I would get them into the “main” tank as soon as they are bigger than any fish in that tank can swallow. Also, hopefully, with them maturing and growing and starting to breed you will need to introduce some “fresh stock” of shrimps from time to time – ideally from various suppliers. That will keep the gene pool fresh. Every 6 months is fine and you only need literally a couple of females (luckily already berried!) for the number of shrimps you have now (increasing the number of additions as your population grow and starting selling/giving away/swapping your shrimps).
So, fingers crossed for the youngsters – it is now up to them to be good and survive and grow. :)
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Oh, and another thing - sorry, I don't remember if you have Amanos in the tank where the Cherries are going to. To my experience, Amanos may be if not a direct threat but quite intimidating to Cherries - and one more reason for dwarf shrimps to die is stress... Plenty of plants (artificial or real) as hiding places can help.
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No the amanos are in the 125 litre. As I have Apistogramma cacatuoides in there, I wouldn't risk cherries in that tank. I have just 2 male amanos left as the one female died a week or so ago. I did buy them in Feb 2009, so they are over four years old. My researches so far suggest that is a good age for amanos, so perhaps the female died of old age. I had noticed that over the last six months she had spells without eggs for the first time since I bought her.
The cherry babies are growing well. Some are almost double the size of others - is that something to worry about?
And I do keep swapping the plastic plants back and forth with the ones in the 50 litre. Hopefully that will serve 2 purposes - replenish the biofilm, and add any bugs to the shrimp QT to 'acclimatise' the babies.
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Well, all is good! Amanos lifespan is about 6 years but as we buy them from shops – wild caught – it is always unknown what age they are when we get them (surely, the ones sold as “large Amanos” and therefore being more expensive are not the ones to go for – they are simply older!). With your shripmplets being different size it could be: a) weaker and stronger ones developing at a different rate and b) males and females. At this stage, honestly, there is no way to know...
Beta G should be helping them quite a lot – so, fingers crossed....
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Just an update a couple of weeks later....
I'm not changing the water as often now since Natalia mentioned shrimp poo being a good breeding ground for the micro-organisms the babies eat. And after her comments about substrate, I carefully hoovered the top layer of sand from the 50 litre and put it in with the baby shrimps. There's enough to cover about two thirds of the bottom with a layer 1 grain thick. The downside is I can't see the shrimps.
I have one shrimp about 1cm long, one a bit smaller and the rest are still only a couple of mm. I still check the bucket for sucked up babies when I do a water change. Today I found 1 live baby cory and 2 live shrimps. And three shed skins. So far, I've found 3 dead shrimps in the weeks since they hatched, but a lot more skins.
I also checked the bucket when I cleaned the 50 litre this afternoon and found 2 more baby cories which are now in with the shrimps.
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I have just done a water change on the QT with the baby shrimp. Normally, I just move the decor out of the way to hoover the bottom but today I removed all the decor, giving each piece a good shake over the tank to remove any livestock hiding in it.
Now that I could see clearly I discovered that I have 10 shrimps (I think, they wouldn't keep still). Two are about half the size of the others. And two of the bigger eight are definitely female - besides being redder than the others they have white saddles.
I also moved a baby cory into the 50 litre last weekend. Baby pygmy cories are transparent with black stripes across their backs. Adult pygmies are grey with a black stripe nose to tail. The baby in question changed from baby colour to adult colour in 2 days, I couldn't believe how fast it changed. It's about quarter of an inch long and still alive as I found it this morning cleaning that tank. I have spotted it a couple of times, grubbing around in the sand alongside the adults.
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Glad to see all the babies are doing well! Once my tank is settled again I'm going to get a few more RCS preferably male since my 3 survivors (still doing great) are all female. Im pondering adding an Assassin snail too at some point
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I have just discovered that one of the shrimps with a saddle is now berried (ie carrying eggs)........
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And so it begins again!!
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I was all set to move the shrimps into the 50 litre any day now. I've been watching them get bigger and bigger and the smallest is now big enough to move. I now have a dilema. Do I move half of them, keeping the berried female in the QT with a few more for company or move them all into the 50 litre and let the baby shrimps take their chance when the eggs hatch in a few weeks. It is very tempting to keep the female in the QT but I did promise my husband that this tank would be taken down this coming week :-\
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This morning I moved 6 shrimp into the 50 litre, including a small saddled female. The other five are still white in colour - males or slow colour developers? This is a bit of an experiment as I'm not sure how they'll cope in there. The fish have changed a bit since I last had shrimp in this tank. The pygmy cories are still there but the male endlers have been replaced (they are in the 125 litre). There are currently 4 Microdevario kubotai (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-kubotai/) in the 50l. Yes, I know 4 isn't enough. I rang round and one not-quite-so-local shop said they could order any number I wanted, so I ordered 12. Only four turned up from the wholesaler :( . The wholesaler is currently listing them as out of stock, and I'm just waiting to get some more. I thought they may as well be in a group of 4 in my tank rather than the shop tank.
But I still have 5 shrimp in the QT, two of which are berried females. These are my back up in case something goes wrong in the 50l.
Saddled = a female with eggs in her ovaries, visible as a paler saddle shape on her back
Berried = a female carrying eggs under her abdomen. The eggs are said to resemble a cluster of berries.
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Ooh your new fish look lovely Sue, hope to see some pictures of them (and all of your tanks really!)
Fingers crossed for your little shrimps. Since my two endlers died I'm holding off on any new additions to my tank until I know there's nothing wrong with it. Hopefully it won't be too long as I'm not known for my patience! I intend to add to more endlers (ideally two similar to ace, he really was a pretty fish) or another variety since I now have two Japanese Blue, two 'Green' and two bars. My tank seems so empty. Hopefully I can get some male shrimps too
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Photos will be tricky, they don't keep still. I still haven't got anything other than orange blurs for my ember tetras.
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...I found it this morning cleaning that tank...
I wish my fish would do that! You must pass on your training tips Sue. ;)
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You'll learn that the way I write isn't always the way things should be said ;D
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I noticed a couple of days ago that one of the females in the QT was no longer carrying eggs and she had developed a saddle (ie more eggs are growing in her ovaries). But I couldn't see any baby shrimps, though they are very difficult to see on the sand on the bottom of the tank.
I did a water change this morning and checked the old water before throwing it away - and found 7 baby shrimps, which are now back in the QT. There are probably a lot more than that, I just hoovered up 7.
I have moved the female that is now saddled but no longer berried into the 50 litre. Once the eggs carried by the second female hatch, I'll move all the older shrimp and just keep the new babies in the QT.
Anyone know how long it takes for cherry shrimp eggs to hatch? I noticed the first female carrying eggs on 5 Oct, 17 days ago. She may have had them before that and I just didn't notice. I am sure the second female didn't have eggs until 9 Oct because I was looking for them since she had a saddle when I found the first one with eggs. Will they hatch any day now or will it be a few days yet?
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Hi Sue,
The gestation period for Cherries is about 28 days. However, it is almost impossible to get the exact day of “start” and “end” of this period with an average home aquarium shrimps – we, the humans, only notice things when we notice them! :)
Also, water temperature, general conditions and the “mother” herself can alter the time the shrimps are developing. It is just like humans – with all premature births, etc.... ???
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Thank you, Natalia. Female number 1 had probably been carrying eggs for several days before I noticed. It is tricky spotting individual shrimps in a tank with a lot of hiding places ;D
I have made notes on what I noticed and when.
On 20 Sep, I noticed 2 shrimps had saddles. On 5 Oct I realised one was berried. That's when I started checking the two red shrimps every day with a magnifying glass. Number 2 did not have eggs on 8 Oct, but she did on 9 Oct. The temp is 26oC. So expect more babies around the beginning of November?
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The second female had no eggs on Sunday (27th). That's the 9th to the 27th; 18 days. I also found a shed skin with four or five eggs inside. Presumably these are infertile eggs? I have them in a tub to make sure.
I have moved the remaining 4 adult shrimps (3 males and one newly saddled female) into the 50 litre, and have the QT with just babies. Hoovered up a load of babies again yesterday during a water change..........
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Just over a month after hatching, five of the babies were big enough to go in the 50 litre.
I always check the bucket after a water change on both the QT with the baby shrimps and also the 50 litre just in case I hoover up any baby cories. No shrimps from the QT today but there were 2 tiny baby shrimps in the water from the 50 litre. I am most surprised, I didn't think any newly hatched shrimps would stand a chance in there with pygmy cories and Microdevarios looking for a tasty snack.
Oh, and there are now six Microdevarios - I found another shop with just two left to add to my four. There are now two shops trying to get me some more as I want twelve altogether.
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I have now moved all the shrimps to the 50 litre and shut down the QT. My husband is pleased with that ;D
According to my notes, I have moved a total of 23 shrimps into the 50 litre - 11 from the female I bought; 10 that were from females born in the quarantine tank; and the two babies I found in the bucket after cleaning the 50 litre. I saw some very small shrimps in the 50 litre so thought the 2 I had put in the QT would be OK back in the 50 litre. If I try to save them all, there will be no rooom for the fish ;D
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Ok read all this and the only thing I'm not doing is the beta glucans. I've been syphoning water from the surface, leaving the poop and only removing 1 litre a week from a 25 litre tank, there's an old piece of bogwood in there planted up with established java ferns, quite a few other plants in there, there's catappa leaves on the bottom, I've been putting pieces of trimmed plants from the 200 litre tank in every week so there's fresh bio-film and they get fed a pellet between them and the mts once a day.
Fingers crossed they hang on in there for the beta glucans
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I've noticed another difference.
You mentioned feeding a pellet - what kind? When the babies were in the QT I fed them crushed Hikari Shrimp Cuisine - crushed with a pestle and mortar into powder. Since they've been in the 50 litre with fish, I feed a mixture of shrimp cuisine, sinking pellets for the cories and flakes for the mid water fish, though of course they all eat everything.
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I just put a normal shrimp pellet in, which they started indulging in earlier this week. Prior to that they were feeding off the biofilm and algae. I've been swapping in stems of plants from the main tank that are covered in diadoms and they seem to love that.
I'm assuming thats sufficient.
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Shrimps will actually eat almost anything. Once the shrimp cuisine is finished, mine will be on fish food. We just need to feed them enough if they multiply till they take over the tank. A couple of weeks ago I rescued 37 shrimps from the bucket during a water change, and that is just a small portion of what's in there.
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I've seen 9 babies at one time on the feeding station so I guess there's a few I'm not seeing. I reckon atm with the decomposing catappa leaves there's enough to go round and I'm quite guilty of overfeeding, so if I'm satisfied, they must be ;D
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I'm guilty of over feeding my shrimp too