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IT'S DONE YAY

Author Topic: IT'S DONE YAY  (Read 6154 times)

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Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2017, 10:08:21 PM »
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In a plantless cycle, ammonia is turned into nitrite as bacteria grow to eat it, then on to nitrate as more bacteria grow to eat nitrite. Both nitrite and nitrate are acidic so they tend to make the pH drop.
Tap water has some carbonate in it; it comes from the rock the water flows over. Some places have a lot of carbonate because the reservoir or river flows over a lot of limestone. Other areas, like Northumbrian Water's Kielder Water doesn't sit on limestone so there is not much carbonate in the water.
Carbonates react with acid. If there is a lot of carbonate in the water, the amount of acidic nitrite and nitrate isn't enough to use up all the carbonate so the pH stays constant. But in places with very little carbonate it can all get used up and then there is nothing to stop the acids dropping the pH.

The problem during cycling is that our filter bacteria need carbonate to grow properly, and they need an alkaline pH. At below pH 6.5 they stop multiplying. And if there is not much carbonate in the water there may not be enough for the bacteria to grow well enough to multiply.

So in places where KH in tap water is low, it is easier to add bicarbonate of soda to artificially boost the amount of carbonate in the water. All the sodium in bicarb (the soda bit) is not very good for fish, but we do a big water change at the end of the cycle to remove all the nitrate the cycle has made and that also removes bicarb.

My KH (carbonate hardness) is 3 degrees. When I did a fishless cycle (no plants) in 2013, my pH dropped from 7.5 to below 6.



But when there are plants in the tank, they use ammonia as fertiliser. They don't turn it into nitrite or nitrate so there won't be as much acid formed. There will be a bit because of plant waste (yes plants do make waste just not on the scale of animals  :) ) so there is less risk of a pH crash than when there are no plants.
I didn't test my pH in 2013 until I realised that the cycle seemed to have stopped and that's when I found the very low pH. Your cycle with plants may never suffer a pH crash but as pH is the simplest of all the tests (no waiting 5 mins for the colour to develop) testing for pH when you test for all the others will catch the pH starting to fall if the does happen.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2017, 05:48:46 PM »
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My fishless cycle re-start on the 4/10/2017
water reading
 I tested the water that was in the tank before I started the change,
PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 8.0
Nitrate: 5.00
Nitrite 0.50

Took out all but a few centimeters of water, all the plants as they were just mush, cleaned the filter in the old water, (a bit to much dead plant matter clogging it up). Replaced the water adding 1ml de-chlorinator per 4.5L I did not put anymore bi-carb in, replanted new plants. tested water

PH 7.4
Ammonia: 2.oo
Nitrate: 4.00
Nitrite: 0

Switched everything back on and tested after 30mins.
PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 2.00
Nitrate: 4.00
Nitrite: 0

7/10/20017
PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 1.00
Nitrate: 5.00
Nitrite: 0
I am worried that the Nitrate is going up, should I do anything. B xx


10/10/17
PH: 7.4
Ammonia:0
Nitrate: 7
Nitrite: 0

Do I now add 2ppm Ammonia?
Added the Ammonia

Today's reading 13/10/17
PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite; 0.25

Added new plants and 10ml Fertilizer. (after tests done).

Snails very active above ground and climbing tank walls during the day, but not coming out of tank do I possibly need to put some food in for them or will there be enough plant matter for them to eat.?

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2017, 08:13:58 PM »
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It looks like something is happening. You have a tiny amount of nitrite, possibly caused by the plants not using all the ammonia, and bacteria staring to multiply to eat the bit the plants don't use.

You could try adding a tiny bit of food for the snails. But what would be better is some vegetable matter. Depending what you have to hand in the kitchen, a thin slice of courgette or a thin slice of cucumber or a small piece of lettuce leaf. They will like it better if it is soft so blanch whatever you have in a bit of water in the microwave for a few seconds. You will need to weight it down, something like a small stone, or even sacrifice a teaspoon and use the handle to skewer the veg. Remove the veg after 24 hours or it will go off and make a mess of the tank - and confuse the cycle. Doing this once a week will be fine for snails.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2017, 09:08:22 PM »
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So I test again in 2 days to see if the readings have moved. I have put more plants in today, and now I have found what might be a baby snail n the glass, whatever it is it is moving about so not a bit of debris from the plants.  ::)

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2017, 09:14:40 PM »
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Yes, test again in 2 days.
If ammonia is zero but nitrite is not zero, wait another 2 days and test again.
But if both ammonia and nitrite are zero, add another 2 ppm ammonia and test next day.

This is not what I wrote in the 'how to' thread, but it is because you have a lot of plants so the cycle won't be the same as without plants.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2017, 09:35:37 PM »
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Thanks, Sue I had realized it was a bit different that is why I am posting it in this way then I will print the whole thing off at the end so I have it to refer back to. Thank You for all your help it is really appreciated. I will put some food in tomorrow and see how it goes. B xx

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2017, 05:37:35 PM »
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[FCMF DELETING LARGE SECTION THAT WAS A COPY & PASTE OF THREAD REPLIES #50 & #51 AND THUS POTENTIALLY CONFUSING. C:-)]

CONTINUATION OF WATER QUALITY RESULTS FROM REPLY #51:  C:-)

Fed snails a piece of lettuce not sure if they ate any, but I definitely have baby snails more showing each day.
today's test
16/10/17

PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0

do I wait another 2 days and test again?

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2017, 06:58:38 PM »
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Yes I would wait and test again. The good news is that you don't have any nitrite, but you need to make sure the plants can remove all the ammonia before getting fish.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2017, 07:17:47 PM »
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But what about the Nitrate it just seems to be getting higher and higher is that not dangerous. I really do not understand about them. I need to re-read it so I can try and get the gist of it all.

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2017, 07:37:07 PM »
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Ooohhh, I missed that  :-[

Yes it does seem a bit odd.

Did you use a bacterial starter at any stage, either when you overdosed ammonia or when you started again? And if so, what was it?
Did the plants come out of a tank that had fish in, or was it a plant-only tank?

1 ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7 ppm nitrite, which is then turned into 3.6 ppm nitrate. Since your tap nitrate is zero, that 10 ppm must all have come from ammonia, and 2.8 ppm ammonia is turned into 10 ppm nitrate.


So....
if you did use a bacterial starter, it could be that it contained nitrite eating bacteria
or
if the plants came from a tank that also had fish, there would have been bacteria on the plants.



Nitrate is only a problem at higher levels, though there is now evidence that we should keep our tanks below 20 ppm nitrate. You don't have fish yet so I wouldn't worry about nitrate. The main thing is that your tank (be it bacteria or plants) can remove all the ammonia made by your future fish, and any nitrite that may be made from that ammonia.
This is why I am concentrating on making sure that your plants are well growing and can take up all the ammonia that you add, or that you grow enough bacteria to eat any ammonia that the plants can't deal with.

A thought has just occurred to  me - are you using any nitrate containing plant fertiliser?

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2017, 07:56:17 PM »
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When I first set the tank up I overdid the ammonia, after a few days use some put Tetra Safe Start Water Conditioner, 50 ml into the water, but since then have done a 90% water change and not added any more, my plants were from a plant only tank from a shop, I added some amazon swords from Andy earlier in the week I think they were from a tank with fish but it was going up before I added them.
 
The Plant food is " Love Fish Plant Food is nitrate and phosphate free so avoids encouraging unwanted algae."
I have only added 20 ml of this over that last 2 weeks as it is a weekly feed.

My Plants are growing I can see new growth on all and the grass that died off is sprouting in some places as well so all seems good for them.

I do still have the fine sponge in the filter alongside the carbon one should I maybe take that out now.?

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2017, 07:59:57 PM »
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If you remove anything I would remove the carbon  :)

In that case I would just wait until the tank can get rid of all the ammonia. Once the plants are growing really well, it shouldn't take too long. And just ignore the nitrate for now. Once you do have fish, you can test nitrate then to make sure it doesn't go over 20 ppm.

Offline Matt

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2017, 10:08:47 PM »
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The carbon will be removing the fertiliser and getting clogged by it so I would agree on removing it

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2017, 05:27:05 PM »
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So what should I put in place of it. ?


Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2017, 07:07:47 PM »
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What is the carbon? It could be a bag of granules, a carbon impregnated sponge or a cartridge (a flat bag of carbon held on a plastic frame). What to replace it with depends on what shape it is.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2017, 08:41:37 PM »
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It is a carbon impregnated sponge you can have a look at the filter here.

http://www.interpet.co.uk/Media/InterpetUK/Skoo/2201/2201_7.pdf

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2017, 09:09:57 PM »
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In that case, all you need is another piece of sponge, any brand, and cut it to the same size and shape as the carbon sponge. I would look for a cheap filter sponge so that it will be the right type of sponge. A bath sponge isn't, for example. (Some sponges are designed to hold water, others to allow water to run through them. Obviously filter sponges need to be the kind that let water run trough  ;D )

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2017, 01:51:18 PM »
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I have ordered some thanks,  we have just had a card from Northumbrian Water they are going to be cleaning the pipes between the 26th oct-1st nov  I am hoping this is not going to cause any problems after all the work I have put into getting the tank right.   ::)

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2017, 03:42:59 PM »
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I have't had problems when they've done that because I do a bigger than usual water change the day before the first date on the card and the next one at least 2 days after the second date. That way anything in the pipes has had chance to be flushed out before I put any water in my tanks.
It is annoying though when you get a second card saying they couldn't do it the first time so they'll be doing it instead on these new dates.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2017, 05:11:21 PM »
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I was thinking that might be worth doing but as not finished cycling yet might not have fish by then anyway so will be lucky. I forgot to do reading today and it is getting too dark to get good readings now so will do it in the morning. fingers crossed it is ok. B xx

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2017, 09:23:31 PM »
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Ok so The tests today are.
PH: 7.4 ish,
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 20-30
Nitrite: 0

I was worried about the Nitrate so took a sample to A.M. Aquatics on the team valley Gateshead they tested my water and it is ready to go. I showed him all my reading he did a test with their testing equipment and all was spot on with my readings. I bought 2 Assasin snails as I am getting loads of Malaysian snails after a bit chat with him, he suggested that my tank will get overrun with them and would be better with Assasins as they do not breed as much and will be just as good for the tank. Tomorrow I am picking up my first fish  Yippee.... :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2017, 10:15:41 PM »
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Take it slowly with the fish, not too many to start with. And test every day till you are sure that ammonia and nitrite stay at zero. This is the only problem about cycling with plants, the cycle runs differently  ;D

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2017, 11:01:32 PM »
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I am getting some neons as he says they would be fine, and happy to test everyday fingers crossed. Thank You to everyone that has helped me out I am very happy it has finally worked. Bxxxx :cheers:

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2017, 09:01:43 AM »
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Barbara, if you read this before you go out - neons should be OK.

But........
Don't believe anything a fish shop tells you - first rule of fish keeping. Yes there are some good ones but they are very few and far between so it is safer to assume they are all talking rubbish. The problem we have at the moment is that there still seems to be something wrong with Seriously Fish so we can't check on there - their profile pages are blank.
For example, very very few shop owners/workers know anything about cycling. Most of them don't know what the word means.

With plants in the tank you can't use enough ammonia to cycle for a tank full of fish so you need to take things slowly so that the plants can use all the ammonia made by the fish. As the plants get bigger they'll be able to use more ammonia, so then you can get more fish.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2017, 10:00:44 AM »
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@Aquarius Barbara new fish day is very exciting. Please post pics when your fish have settled.  ;D

@Sue I'm glad that you mentioned problems with the SF site as I was wondering where all the information was and thought it was a problem with my computer.  ::)

As for information and advice given at fish stores, it can be very variable. I've only been enjoying the wonderful world of fish for a couple of years, and have spent a lot of time at various stores talking to the staff and listening to them talk to other customers. I have checked information given with that available on various sites, and also here, and am now generally comfortable with who to listen to at the shops. I have even met a member of staff at a branch of Pets@Home who gave me a faily detailed grilling about my tank and quarantine tank when I wanted to buy some otocinclus (there were none in stock at the stores I'd usually go to). This lady was very firm about the requirement for fishless cycling, and also only adding otos to mature tanks. I was quite pleased with what I witnessed, so perhaps some P@H are more reliable than others.
Last weekend I was at a local MA and saw them testing the water sample that a customer had brought , as she'd had a problem with her fishless cycle. After testing the sample and talking to the customer they found that she'd rinsed the filter media in tap water. They explained the problem to her, told her what to do, and refused to sell her any fish, telling her to return with another sample when the cycle was back on track.
Yesterday I was at an independant LFS to pick up some live food, and was chatting with a member of staff who I trust. He'd gone to the George V Joe aquascaping competition recently, and had taken a detour or more than 20 miles to visit another store. He said that he was very disappointed to see that they were selling tank buster fish, and that the tanks didn't seem to have enough decor/hides for the fish they contained, both things that he obviously felt quite strongly about.
There is a lot of conflicting information available everywhere, which can be very confusing. I feel that sites like this one are absolutely invaluable for the years of experience available, and the friendly atmosphere that encourages people to ask questions. Sometimes it's a case of finding out as much information as possible, discussing the information with trusted sources, trying our best to get things right, and keeping a close eye on all of the aquatic friends under our care.
 :)

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2017, 10:09:27 AM »
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There are some good fish store workers, the problem is working out which ones they are.

Like the chap at MA when I bought my betta. He keeps discus but said that it was OK to keep plakat bettas in community tanks, just not long tailed bettas. He may know discus but he obviously doesn't know bettas.

But in my favourite shop I came in half way through a conversation with another customer - no I'm afraid you can't keep those fish with the ones you already have ....... no you can't keep those either.......well what would you suggest?.....how about these, or these or these......

Customers can be as bad. In one shop I overheard - I bought these fish a few weeks ago, they were this big Now they're this big, what are you going to do about it! She was talking about bleeding heart tetras which she bought at half an inch long and were now 2 inches long


Regarding SF, I even turned on my Kindle Fire to check it wasn't a problem with my laptop  ;D

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2017, 10:47:23 AM »
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This is all making me very worried the guy at the shop really seemed to know what he was talking about, I also had the same conversation with the gut at Fish Alive in Durham and he told me the same, I am going to go ahead and get the fish today and just see how it goes. Thanks for all your comments. Bx

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2017, 12:01:11 PM »
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The thing that has me worried is that you haven't said that you added another dose of ammonia and that cleared to zero ammonia and zero nitrite in 24 hours. But as I have said before, with plants things are different. Provided you don't stock the tank to the max in one go, you should be fine.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2017, 04:28:05 PM »
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Yes I did and it cleared that is why I had it checked. Just putting in my fish now 6 neon tetras and 6 harlequins. Fingers crossed.

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2017, 04:36:57 PM »
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That sounds a nice combination of fish  :)


Just a warning that it is not unknown for the odd one or two shoaling fish to die shortly after purchase. Considering what they have been through it's not surprising. They've been shipped from the breeding farms to a UK wholesaler, then to the shop where they've been gawked at and chased round with a net every time anyone bought fish from that tank, then caught and put in a bag before arriving at your tank. All stressful for the poor things.

Offline fcmf

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2017, 05:05:43 PM »
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Yes I did and it cleared that is why I had it checked.
Relieved to read of this. I had been reading this thread with the same concerns as Sue but unfortunately haven't been in a position to reply until today.

This is all making me very worried the guy at the shop really seemed to know what he was talking about
This is a common issue in LFSs - they sound but aren't necessarily very knowledgeable, particularly around fishless cycles. There is still a widespread view out there by prospective fishkeepers and LFSs alike that a fishless cycle involves just having the filter switched on for a/several week(s) in a fishless tank and that readings of 0 ammonia/nitrite and <20 nitrates means that the tank is fish-ready, whereas the filter actually needs to go through the preparation phase so that it can process the fish waste/ammonia. On the issue of sounding authoritative, that's part of their role - I overheard a conversation in a LFS involving a customer wanting "one pink coloured tetra, one blue coloured tetra...", etc, until I was able to breathe a sigh of relief when she was correctly advised to purchase them in shoals as they were shoaling fish, only for the next sentence to cause me to audibly wince as the authoritative voice said "...shoals of at least two...".. It takes time to learn - on here - what is correct/incorrect advice and therefore whether the authoritative-sounding voice is actually imparting correct information or what they think the customer wants to hear / is likely to get a sale / may get sales further down the line (of medication / replacement fish).

Just putting in my fish now 6 neon tetras and 6 harlequins.
I approve highly of your choice of fish. :D :cheers: Best of luck with them.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2017, 07:54:21 PM »
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I hope that your new fish love their new home and settle in quickly.  :cheers:

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2017, 09:07:57 PM »
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Well, they seem happy enough they have had their supper and having a good look around.

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2017, 09:17:44 PM »
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Looking good  :)



Can I make a suggestion? Get some floating plants  :) Even demolishing a plastic plant with large flat leaves and placing them on the surface would help.
I have Espei's rasboras which are closely related to harlequins. My Espei's rasboras do not like swimming under an exposed surface. Until I got some floating plants, they spent all their time huddled in a corner. They still won't come out from under the floating plants even to eat - luckily the plants now cover 3/4 of the water surface.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2017, 09:39:40 PM »
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Great stuff.  :cheers:

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2017, 10:02:05 PM »
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As It is a small tank and I do not want to get overrun with plants I am going to see if some rubber matting laid over the top of the lid will diffuse the light a bit.

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2017, 10:10:38 PM »
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It doesn't have to be live plants. Something this could work, if you could find anything like it - I once saw a tank that had a silk plant attached to the upper part of the back of the tank with a sucker. The plants had long thin leaves and they were allowed to float on the surface.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2017, 12:24:11 AM »
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The Harlequins were a bit odd today but I covered part of the Lid with some matting so the light was more mottled and subdued and they are as happy as larry now. It is a rather strong light for such a small tank but glad it's sorted now

I tested the water and there is no change so all's good today.

Offline Matt

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2017, 07:04:43 AM »
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Can you raise the light up a bit as well? This will result in less light reaching the tank...

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2017, 01:22:27 PM »
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It can't go up much but I have turned it away a bit so its more at the back than full on the top.

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2017, 02:01:43 PM »
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If you could find some aquarium safe plastic floating plants, they would help too. As long as the light didn't melt them.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2017, 02:54:20 PM »
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Hi sorry I have not been about bit of a hectic week.

The fish are still doing ok my daily water reading stayed the same for 3 days then the nitrated dropped a bit but then ph, ammonia and nitrates spiked so I did a 20% water change yesterday fish still happy but will test shortly and see how it is today.

Offline Sue

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2017, 03:11:16 PM »
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That's the way to go, daily testing and water changes as necessary (ie whenever you see either ammonia and/or nitrite above zero). Once they both stay at zero you can go longer between tests - until you get more fish, then start testing daily again.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2017, 12:52:49 AM »
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Today's test was back to the same as the day I put the fish in the tank, it was only a small spike but did it so would not get worse. we will see what tomorrows test is like I have been doing the test at 4 pm each day but I will be out tomorrow at that time so will either do it earlier or in the evening. Getting into a routine with the tank is helping me to make sure I don't forget things, on the next water change I will remove the carbon and replace with plain filter sponge.

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2017, 09:25:33 AM »
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When you replace the carbon it is possible (but not certain) you'll have another spike as you will remove some bacteria. If you do, it won't last long and just do extra water changes.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2017, 11:42:18 PM »
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Water testing still going well, added two Honey Gourami's yesterday and they seem happy enough.

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2017, 07:50:46 AM »
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Oooh, which colour gouramis did you get? They come in natural, yellow and red. (The natural form has a tan male and beige female).

Offline Littlefish

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2017, 09:24:08 AM »
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Lovely.  :)
Please post pics when you have time.

Offline Aquarius Barbara

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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2017, 10:14:42 AM »
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Yesterdays reading

PH: 7.6
AM: 0.25-0.50
N/Ri: 0
N/Ra: 20+

They are a red/orange a male and a female, we had our grandchildren with us, they insisted we name them so they chose the names, James & Michelle, all seem happy enough,  small spike again yesterday so did a 30% water change and replaced the carbon filter for a plain one. will test again tonight



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Re: IT'S DONE YAY
« Reply #99 on: November 01, 2017, 06:57:04 PM »
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Pictures please  :isay:

I am considering seeing if I can get honey gourami to get on with my rams as whilst Im a massive ram fan, I do miss the characters of the gouramis.  I've heard some mixed experiences with this however...

Will yours 'wave' at you with their feelers if you wiggle your finger up and down on the glass??

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