Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping => General Fishkeeping Chat => Topic started by: Extreme_One on July 21, 2015, 09:19:56 AM
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Lovely video, it shows the behaviour very nicely. She is chasing away some tiger barbs that are much bigger than she is.
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What a great quality video and music. The tank and fish are beautiful too.
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Thank you for the kind words.
I hope The Duchess manages to fight off the attackers for the next few days, I reckon she's lost almost half of her eggs so far. :-\
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Don't forget the mother would have eaten any eggs that were infertile or became fungused. But that won't account for half of the total :(
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Yeah, even accounting for her eating some, I think she's got a hard battle ahead.
She's a lot more aggressive today even, and sticking right to the side of the coconut shell shielding the eggs with her flanks.
I'm so impressed by her tenacity and courage! I really hope she's rewarded with a few surviving offspring.
I've started with the Liquifry drops today so we're all remaining positive. :)
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Beautiful tank and fish, good luck with the fry. :cheers:
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Thanks Anne. :cheers:
Oh dear, I just checked the nest and there are only four eggs left. :(
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The Duchess has just spawned again. :cheers:
This time I've partially blocked off the entrance to her coconut nest, so she should find it much easier to guard and fend off any attacks.
The only thing is, I don't know when she spawned so, I'm concerned that the male hasn't gone and fertilised the eggs yet.
I hope I haven't made it so he won't complete his part in the process.
Another interesting few days ahead ... :)
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I gave my cockatoos a selection of 'caves' and found that they usually chose the one with the smallest entrance, though one female did go for a hollow at the top of a tall piece of wood. So making the entrance smaller fits in with that.
The only safe way to see them breed and watch the parental behaviour though is a separate tank. When I did that I knew from previous experience that the male in question was an incorrigible egg eater so I had to remove him once he'd done his bit leaving the female alone with her eggs.
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I don't expect success, but feel responsible for ensuring the best chance of success, if at all possible.
I don't specifically want to breed the species, and dont really have the room to set up a breeding tank.
The QT tank might end up being a breeding tank for one brood though, in future, just because I do feel that after all her effort she deserves some success.
Maybe she'll have some luck in the community tank, all by herself though ... Fingers crossed. :)
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I had to do some fish shuffling to give the 60 litre to the apistos :) Then it was all for nothing when the tank started to leak. I suppose it could have been worse, the 60 litre could have been full of fish instead of just the female apisto and fry. The female had to go back in the 125 litre and the fry into the QT. Once I replaced the tank I never tried breeding them again.
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...Once I replaced the tank I never tried breeding them again.
Do they spawn in your community tank? If so, what do you do when they do, just let nature take it course presumably?
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I've had both Apistogramma cacatuoides and A borelli spawn several times in my community tank over the years. Apart from that one occasion when I set up the 60 litre for them, the eggs or fry have always been eaten.
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... the eggs or fry have always been eaten.
It seems a shame but it has to be the most likely outcome and the one I'm prepared for.
I guess fish aren't as sentimental as humans and they don't see their failures as something to mourn.
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There are perhaps 15 or 20 eggs left this morning, and I'm certain she ate them this time.
Oh well. She's only young, plenty of time to get it right one day.
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American cichlids do have the reputation for eating their own eggs the first few times. One theory put forward is that they need to have been brought up by their mother to know how to be good parents themselves. Most commercially raised fish (ie those on sale in shops) are removed as eggs and reared away from their mother. They have to learn how to be parents by trial and error.
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Hopefully in a couple of weeks she'll go for third time lucky.
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Before work this morning Duke and The Duchess were both in her coconut nest.
She was rolling over and over and shimmying.
A short while later and he swims away leaving her behind guarding a clutch of eggs.
Hopefully this time, third time lucky. O:-)
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I appreciate that it's unlikely the eggs will survive, but it is fascinating watching the behaviour surrounding the spawning and nesting process.
Each time has been slightly different from the last. Some of the new behaviour may well be related to the different tactics I'm employing to try and enable The Duchess to maintain a viable clutch. I'm determined to give her the best chance seeing as she's putting in the maximum amount of effort.
This time I put a largish pebble in the entrance to her nest. This is designed to block access for any Tiger Barbs, whilst still allowing good water flow and visibility.
I came back from work today and had to laugh. The Duchess had managed to place a small pile of fine gravel on top of the pebble. I would love to have seen her spitting pieces of gravel onto her pebble, even more so I'd love to know why she did it.
My wife is convinced she was decorating.
I'm wondering if she was hollowing out the nest to give it some more depth.
Anyway, whatever the reason, whatever the outcome, it's such fun to observe.
I highly recommend a pair of Dwarf Cichlids in a community tank if you have the space.
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With sand substrate, there are reports of the female piling sand in the cave entrance, almost sealing herself in.
And moving things around by mouth is normal for apistos. That's how the female gets her fry where she wants them. The one time I had fry survive to free swimming was when they were alone in the tank. The pair spawned in a cave, then I moved the male out. She guarded the eggs and wrigglers as though the tank was full of other fish. When the fry became free swimming, she herded them round the tank to feed. Those that strayed too far away were sucked up and brought back to the main group. But as the tank light went out leaving just the room light (ie what she thought of as dusk) she collected the fry one by one and took them back to her spawning cave then blocked them in with her body. It was really fascinating to watch :)
Even if you only manage it once, it is worth maybe setting up a small tank to watch this behaviour.
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Yes, good idea, I think after I've finished using the QT tank for my new stock I will put The Duchess in there to raise a brood.
I have the base clear of substrate when quarantining - will this suffice when she nests or will I have to put a substrate in first?
And as far as this, third, attempt : I looked in the nest this morning and couldn't see any eggs, although she is still guarding.
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Bare bottomed would be OK but if you could lay your hands on a bit of sand, a thin layer would be better. You wouldn't need much for a layer a few grains thick in a small tank. Do you know anyone who has playsand for their children, for example, who might give you a cupful?
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Thanks Sue that's a great idea.
I have about two thirds of a bag of playsand.
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That's even better :)
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Been reading this trail with fascination. Looking forward to further updates.
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Me too! Fascinating. I would love to keep Dwarf Cichlids ....... oh dear .......aaaaargh :yikes: ....MTS !!
Skittler
ps I will stick to shrimps, I will stick ....... oh dear .......
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any up dates on this? Its been facinating reading
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Thanks for asking Fiona.
Well she is regularly spawning every 14 - 18 days.
It's been really interesting to watch because we know a couple of days before it's going to happen.
She starts off by frantically housekeeping, moving gravel around in her coconut, all the while whilst becoming a lovely lemon-yellow colour.
I know female Cichlids have a reputation for being drab but when she's ready to spawn she's a stunner, in my eyes.
She also becomes very territorial at this time, Tiger Barbs have to stay clear, any that stray within a 20cm radius will hurriedly be chased away. She's far more tolerant of the Cardinals although if they come very close to her nest they are chased away too. She's ignored the Gobies so far.
The last few times spawning have been fascinating to watch.
It starts with the pair swimming in close unison around the tank in circuits, beginning and ending in her coconut. It looks like a dance and they're literally rubbing flanks as they parade around the tank.
When the time comes she enters the coconut nest and starts turning somersaults carefully positioning her eggs on the underside of the coconut 'roof'.
He stays near the mouth of the nest fanning his milt towards the eggs.
Each time I've estimated there have been about 100 eggs and she guards them viciously.
Unfortunately each time when I wake on day three they're all gone.
I will be moving her into a tank set up for breeding, one of the weeks before Christmas.
He'll go in too until the eggs are laid and then he'll return to the main tank leaving her to care for the eggs in peace.
Actually, perhaps I'll plan it around Christmas time as I'll have some time off work.
I'll keep you posted...
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Thankee, I'll look forward to it. :)
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I just don't know what to do.
I've spent the past few weeks preparing a breeding tank, ensuring the filter is cycled and planned to move the pair in today. I'm sure she'll be happy but she and her mate don't seem to want to leave the jungle.
What possessed me to think I might be able to catch a pair of healthy Apisto's from a heavily planted tank?
I'm tossing up between giving up on the idea, or removing my bogwood and some plants and trying to catch them again in a couple of days.
It's stressful for the fish and for me, chasing them all around the tank.
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There is one alternative, though not the preferred one. Wait till they've spawned then remove the cave, or whatever she uses, complete with eggs. It is possible to raise the fry alone but this tends to lead to adults which don't know how to look after eggs/fry in their turn.
The slightly better option is to allow them to spawn and try to move the cave and the female together. If it works, she'll look after the fry quite happily on her own. The danger is that the process will stress her too much and she'll eat the eggs.
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Thanks for the suggestions Sue.
I have a couple of questions to help me decide.
I've noticed in the past that when she's laying her eggs in her nest he's nearby, presumably fanning his milt over them.
How soon after do you reckon I'd be able to move them, ensuring they've been fertilised?
If I were to decide to move the eggs and not her, how could I minimise the chance of them becoming infected by fungus?
I'm leaning towards the idea of moving her with the nest. The whole point was to allow her the experience of raising a clutch of young.
How does this sound as a plan?
When she's laid her eggs, very slowly and carefully pick up the coconut cave raising it very gradually to the surface.
Hopefully she will follow close behind and I can then try and scoop her and the nest together into a net (I do have one large enough).
Does that sound plausible to you?
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The male will have finished his bit almost as soon as she finishes laying.
If you could trap the female inside the cave with her eggs, it might work better. First lower a box of some sort into the tank right next to the cave then move the cave into the box. If the female follows the cave into the box, so much the better. Then lift the box out and into the new tank. Maybe leave the box on its side for a couple of hours to let the female explore before removing the cave and taking the box out. That's how I'd do it. Empty ice cream tubs are good things to have in the cupboard.....
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Thank you again Sue.
I'll have to suss out if I can get a box in the tank - there's not much room. :)
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Oooo good luck with that, catching fish in a tank full of plants is a bit of a nightmare. I look forward to seeing the outcome.
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She laid eggs again this morning. I had been a little concerned as she's a couple of days overdue.
Perhaps the stress of me trying to catch her the other day had made her late.
I tried lowering a breeding trap over the coconut cave, trapping her inside but I just couldn't manoeuvre the net into place to scoop the lot.
So, instead I lowered the net behind the nest and with my other hand gently lifted the coconut into the net.
To my amazement she followed! She ended up swimming into the net by herself.
Getting her and the coconut into a fish bag was probably the most difficult thing I've encountered, in this hobby of ours.
So now, she's in a fish bag, along with her nest, acclimatising in the breeding tank.
She seems fairly calm but only time will tell if she's been so stressed by the move that she eats her eggs.
Still, if she does I only need to catch the male within the next fortnight and she can try again.
I'll keep you posted... :)
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Well done!
If you do have to wait till next time, keep an eye on the male after spawning. I'm assuming the new spawning tank is smaller than the main tank? You could find the female will turn on him in a smaller tank if she sees him as a threat to her eggs. When I bred cockatoos, the male always sneaked in and ate the eggs so I had to remove him as soon as he'd done his bit.
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Thanks for all the tips and support Sue, not just in this topic but everywhere on this forum. :cheers:
I hope you realise how valued you are and I sincerely hope you take a great deal of satisfaction from passing on your knowledge. :)
As for the topic in hand, so far The Duchess seems quite happy and with no other fish or snails attacking her eggs (I'm pretty sure the Assassin Snails have been snacking), I'm hopeful she'll succeed this time.
If I do end up putting the male in for next time I'll heed your advice and remove him after he's done his bit. ;)
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Thank you for those kind words :)
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I just looked into the coconut nest and saw that most of her eggs were gone. Then I noticed that they appear to have been repositioned and spread out along the top edge of the coconut and inside a couple of cutout recesses.
Has anyone heard of Apisto mothers moving their eggs?
(EDIT) I just found this: The female plays a major part in caring for the offspring, which can number as high as 100. The eggs might be laid in a “cave” (e.g., an overturned flowerpot or a coconut shell); after about three days (depending on the temperature), the newly hatched larvae are moved by the mother to another location (i.e., another cave).
Hmmmm. I don't think these are 'wrigglers' as they are basically motionless. However, they do look a little different to the eggs, as they look a little rounder and somehow paler.
However, the breeding tank isn't lit and its not very easy to see exactly what's going on.
In other news I've just ordered a small airpump and some Brine shrimp eggs and salt to make my own hatchery. :cheers:
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Oh well done Simon!!! I can't wait to see what happens :)
And I appreciate our Sue too, she's saved my bacon a time or two. Ta Sue :wave:
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Well she's been in the breeding tank for 9 days now and no sign of any fry.
I've moved the male in with her so hopefully in a few days she can try again.
In the meantime I've had some almond leaves and alder cones in there for about a month, they are both supposed to encourage minute organisms that the fry will eat.
I've been adding Liquifry every day and have my Brine shrimp hatchery producing loads of BBS.
The temperature is 76°F which is meant to be the optimum temperature to produce roughly equal numbers of male and female offspring.
I think I'm about as prepared as I can be.
Fingers crossed ...
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Good luck!
What will you do with the babies when you eventually get some?
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Good luck!
What will you do with the babies when you eventually get some?
Thanks Fiona. My favourite LFS will buy them. :)
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She laid eggs this morning. It's funny how frequently she lays on a Wednesday! :fishy1:
I've removed him and put him in the main tank and will be watching her with crossed fingers over the coming days...
I've decided, if unsuccessful, this will be the last time I'll try and breed them, I'll simply let nature take it's course in future.
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Fingers crossed for you. It is quite fascinating watching the female care for the fry.
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I look forward to some photographs )
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Wrigglers! :cheers:
All the eggs had disappeared from the coconut nest on Sunday and I thought she might have eaten them.
Then yesterday we noticed that she was still very yellow so wondered if she might have moved the eggs.
This morning I found them. She has made a new nest beside a half flower pot and there are lots of little 'blobs' beside it and there is definite movement.
Time to set up my Brine shrimp hatchery! :))
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Ooooo how exciting. Congratulations :cheers:
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Wait till they become free swimming and she herds them round the tank. I was surprised with my cockatoo female - every evening after the tank light went out - room light still on - she took them all back inside the cave she laid the eggs in. We'll have to wait and see if agassizis show the same behaviour.
Don't be surprised if she appears to be eating the fry - fish don't have hands so sucking them up and spitting them out is the only way mum can get them where she wants them.
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I've had a pretty awful day really what with it being my mother-in-law's funeral, but I've been thinking about The Duchess and her brood and its been a blessing to have something to take my mind off things.
So the first thing I did when I arrived home was to check the breeding tank.
I was utterly amazed to discover she's moved them again!
I'm guessing there are between 30 and 40 'blobs' now nestled under the flower pot, and she's guarding them quite forcedly .
It's fascinating how she's chosen a completely different place from the one where she laid her eggs!
It makes me wonder if she'd done similar before, in the community tank, without me realising, but then what had happened to the fry?
We're all so excited!!!
We, being me, my wife Marina and my four kids all watching and waiting to see what happens next...
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Very sorry to hear of the really bad time you're having but glad that you're all trying to take your mind off things with the development of The Duchess' brood - I really hope, for all of you, that therein lies a happy ending ie some surviving fry which make it into childhood/adulthood.
Looking forward, in a mix of excitement/nervousness, to reading the next instalment...
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The last couple of days have been pretty tense as I keep thinking she's eaten the eggs.
It turns out she's having a game of hide-and-seek with me.
She has moved the clutch about three times but, because she doesn't stray too far away from them, she gives away their position eventually.
A quick recap:
Today is day 8 since she laid them.
Days 1 - 3 The eggs were attached, as usual, to the underside of her favourite coconut nest. The eggs are orangy coloured and small and oval shaped.
Day 4 - When we finally found the eggs, which had been moved beside the flowerpot, discovered that the eggs had changed, now look like browny 'blobs', much larger than when they were attached to the coconut, and they're showing occasional movement. We're assuming these must be 'wrigglers'
Days 5 - 8 Hide-and-seek! It seems every time I look into the tank now she's moved them. I haven't witnessed the move yet.
Until next time ... fingers crossed!
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The eggs last 3 to 4 days and the wrigglers another 4 to 6 days. So they become free swimming fry anywhere between 7 and 10 days after the eggs were laid. You'll know when they are free swimming as you'll see these little brown things, well, swimming :). And the mother will round up any that get too adventurous.
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Day 9 I can see about 20, maybe more, baby Apistos swimming close to their mother, The Duchess.
They appear to be eating the baby brine shrimp.
I'm really pleased! :))
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Aw - brilliant news. This was the update I was hoping would appear today but, every time I checked, the website was down. Delighted to read this.
What size are each of the baby apistos?
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I reckon they're about 4mm, bigger than I expected actually.
I'm going to try and video them tomorrow. It's what grandparents do. :rotfl:
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Well done! Or should that be well done Duchess ;D
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Beautiful - lovely mother and lovely to watch her protecting her tiny fry. At the end of the video, was that her picking up one of them in her mouth to move it elsewhere?
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At the end of the video, was that her picking up one of them in her mouth to move it elsewhere?
It may have been, I wasn't watching her whilst I was recording.
However, I have just watched her do exactly that with three or four babies that had strayed a little further than she liked.
I've just tried to count them again and I think there must be more like 40 or so.
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WOW!!! Simon you must be well chuffed! There's so many of them. What a lovely video :)