Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping => General Fishkeeping Chat => Topic started by: fcmf on September 05, 2020, 05:05:49 PM
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After a wearing 8 months (Dec2019-July2020) with 9 fatalities - the last 3 of the elderly x-rays, 3 elderly harlies, and 3 young cardinals, I really hoped it would be a fresh start with the new additions added last week following 4 weeks' quarantine. Not to be, it seems!
One new cardinal started displaying all the characteristics that seemed common in the 3 cardinals who died - rapid breathing / faster gill movement than the others, dark spine turning white the full length of it, body very pale (especially as soon as lights out and for a long time in the morning), bloating (visible when viewed from above), gill losing colour. He's too small to determine whether he's got the 'fuzziness'/borderline distended scales when viewed from above but has additionally developed what initially looked like a lump/cyst/spot similar to the second cardinal that died but on the edge of his gill - and, additionally, it had white fungus sprouting from it. To my horror, Wee Harley, my last remaining harlequin rasbora of whom I'm very fond and protective, actually tried snapping this off the cardinal's gill yesterday morning - but without success. This is a lot worse today with a visible white marking - photo attached - but, ironically, the whitened spine and pale body has 'improved' / is scarcely visible today although the bloating remains. One of the older cardinals has also been breathing faster, although not as fast as this cardinal, but so far there are no other symptoms in that particular fish (touchwood).
I and Mr FCMF tried in vain yesterday and today to catch the affected cardinal to remove him for treatment, including during yesterday evening's water change when the water level was low and all decor removed, but to no avail - those cardinals swarm in protectively round one another and are extremely good escape artists! I wouldn't be in the least surprised if this is going to spread to the others given their close proximity and WH's attempt to remove the spot and then tight shoaling with her new shoalmates...
As a recap, 1st fish responded poorly to Epsom salt baths, isolation/eSHa2000 (Dec2019); 2nd fish died comparatively swiftly within days while deliberating whether/how to treat (May2020); 3rd fish delayed treatment due to repeated difficulty capturing although used Melafix in main tank, but died just after deterioration and capture/isolation/eSHa2000 (July2020). I've resorted to Melafix-ing the main tank for the past couple of days, if only for the sake of feeling I need to be doing something but not keen on subjecting the entire tank to treatment. Aware that Waterlife Protozin has some evidence of potential effectiveness, I enquired elsewhere about its ingredients, and in the process received some extremely helpful advice about possibilities which I'm currently exploring while trying to figure out the best course of action.
There's definitely something to be said about a single-fish tank - no need to consider other inhabitants, invertebrates, removal for treatment, etc.! Whatever way this evolves, I won't be getting cardinals again, that's for sure...
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Not been able to provide an update until today but, oddly:
* the white fungus and 'thing' (solid white, several millimetres long that was surrounding the gill) evolved later on Sat 5th to hang from the gill and float out in the water current as the fish swam;
* fungus and 'thing' had fallen off completely by Sun 6th morn.
The previously mentioned characteristics still remain albeit with the pallour on spine and body remaining at the less-pronounced level - an untrained/ less vigilant fishkeeper probably wouldn't notice it or the other symptoms.
Fish in good form otherwise.
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Sounds like a potential step in the right direction @fcmf
Keep us informed! :cheers:
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Glad to hear that the fungus and "thing" have fallen off. I will admit that my immediate reaction is "did you find them and have you tried looking at them with a magnifying glass?". Just out of curiosity.
Luckily I have access to microscopes in work, and I would't rule out taking odd samples in for further inspection. ;D
I hope healing continues and all fish remain in good form.
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Thanks, both.
I did try to find the fungus and white 'thing' as I was keen to remove it - and would be delighted to have it inspected if I did/do find it. I'm conscious I do a lot of tinkering in the tank, and didn't want to have to take all the decor out yet again in an effort to find it when the fish are already in and out of "terror mode" - caused by the net a few times in an effort to catch the afflicted fish, and the Melafix (which had never been a problem when treating the last afflicted cardinal in the spring / earlier summer). There was something white floating off a leaf a day or two later but I wasn't convinced it wasn't snail poo. I'll have a concerted look once the tank is emptied of decor for the weekly water change tomorrow.
Although the fungus/'thing' aspect has disappeared, what I have gathered from this almost-certain NTD is that the fish is never going to recover as such - but it's a matter of trying to keep it as comfortable/happy/stress-free as possible in what limited life it has. The first was very stressed by and didn't respond well to treatment at all, the second had a relatively swift demise, the third had a relatively lengthy but seemingly stress-free demise (6 weeks). Having tried the "Mr FCMF test" (ie can he see which fish is sick?) yesterday evening, the fish was easily identifiable once again as its spine was very white and red stripe very pale and its breathing today is extremely rapid - but this may wax and wane again. If I think I have any chance of getting it captured this evening, though, then I might bring the water change forward in order to give it a chance at capture and isolated treatment - but not if it's clear the fish is going to be more stressed by the experience than if left in the tank with its tankmates.
The other aspect is that the NTD parasite may well be in the tank, and there are options for attempting to get rid of it. One would likely mean having to set up another permanent tank for the nerites (argh - no space!), and the other mightn't mean that - but both would mean subjecting the fish to extensive courses of treatment (which doesn't exactly enamour me - but I might be tempted if I find others coming down with symptoms). Food for thought...
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A sleepless night awaits. ::)
The aforementioned fish has altered over the course of the day in terms of pallour - very transparent at times, almost full colour at others and partly depending on the lighting. However, he has definitely been bloated, eyes bulging and breathing fast continuously for over a week. How long he may have continued for in that status is difficult to tell, although he seemed content enough. However, I managed to capture him during the water change and, having done so, decided to give him a chance with treatment in the hospital tank before the situation got too late (as per Cardinal 3).
Reluctant to give him a full-blown course of treatment in light of Cardinal 1's reaction to isolation and medication, I've taken a softer approach and opted for Interpet Disease Away, a one-dose treatment - I've been told on good authority that one seasoned veteran in fishkeeping swore by its predecessor General Tonic for NTD. It's not an ideal treatment, but I'm trying to balance the potential stress of him being in isolation for too long, harsh treatment, not want to expose others or the invertebrates to (potentially) unnecessary treatment, etc - but obviously I'll monitor the main tank to see if the other faster-breathing cardinal develops any further symptoms or anyone else looks a bit 'off'.
I just hope he survives the night. Worst-case scenario would be a fatal-accident death behind the filter or decor, next-worst would be death due to stress of isolation or treatment, next-worst would be clearly worse than he was. I'm just hoping for anything better than these scenarios. Fingers crossed..!
No sign of the white fungus and 'thing' during the water change - but I may well have siphoned it up (or it's been otherwise consumed).
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Keeping fingers and fins crossed :cheers:
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Fingers crossed for a positive outcome.
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Thanks, both.
Pleased to report that, following my sleepless night, the fish is still alive. He'd dive-bombed behind the piece of Tufa rock not long after moving him into the hospital tank, hence my fears about him ending up behind filter/decor overnight; however, having removed the Tufa rock, thankfully he didn't end up behind anything else. The other symptom I'd noticed yesterday was the lump at throat level like Cardinal 2 had. Anyway, although he looks no better and no worse, he's at least tolerating the hospital tank and medication better than Cardinal 1 who seemed to deteriorate in it. I had a good 'chat' with him through the glass and he interacted back, so I think/hope he understands that I'm doing my best for him and that's the reason he's in there. The others in the main tank have spotted him and been up at the front of the glass watching him but he's largely been facing in the opposite direction.
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Another night wondering about the welfare of the fish and "willing" him to make it through the duration of the night. I made the unfortunate error of, with phone under the duvet, googling the effects of copper on fish and stumbling across the negative effects (although well aware of the positive benefits) - then found myself at 2am doing a noctural 15% water change by torchlight (ie removing and replacing a couple of jugfuls of water) to dilute the copper of the hospital tank. ::) Anyway, it eased my mind sufficiently to get a few hours' sleep before up again checking on him at 6am. Thankfully, he's still alive - no better, no worse. He's not eaten, though - I've never known a fish to eat while under medication.
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As an update:
* after several nights of no or very little sleep for worrying about the fish, I gradually diluted the medicated hospital tank over a couple of days and returned the fish to the main tank - this improved his demeanour from having been motionless on the base of the hospital tank to swimming around inquisitively in the main tank and generally behaving normally with the others including showing interest in food (although I don't actually think he's been eating);
* he's still white along the spine, looks a bit faded in places, is breathing fast, has the lump at throat level, and sometimes looks deathly pale in the morning and at night but sometimes doesn't;
* this weekend's water change let me examine him in detail - having shone a torchlight on him from above, it's clear he's bloated, his eyes are protruding, and, on careful inspection from above, that the faded look is due to the scales sitting out / ruffled;
* option is either re-hospitalise and treat with eSHa 2000 (but at expense of his demeanour/wellbeing and risking an unhappy death on his own, and may just be postponing the inevitable) .v. keep him in main tank for his demeanour/wellbeing (but negating any opportunity for improvement of which I think there's little chance even with medication) - for now, I've gone with the latter but with the addition of Melafix to the main tank as a 'halfway house'... it's a situation of ongoing monitoring daily, though, and potential change of plan at any stage.
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The fish was looking worse this afternoon (scales more elevated, lump under throat more pronounced), so I decided some "tough love" was necessary and was firmly set on proceeding with isolation and medication. I set up the hospital tank in an effort to give him/her the last opportunity for treatment before the situation got beyond that feasibility, with the intention to put in eSHa 2000 for bacterial infection later on tonight following a time lapse. I tried to be as calm and smooth as possible with the net, the newest one of which has a metal handle on it that can be extended and therefore able to be turned more deftly than the other nets, but the fish evaded capture several times, seeking refuge in and being protected by his shoalmates. Eventually, he was at the opposite end of the tank to the others and accepted his fate.
I transferred him into the hospital tank which at this stage was medication-free. However, he went into an immediate decline, deathly white, as though giving up on life, nose down. (I don't honestly think this could be accounted for from the sudden change from an underdosed-Melafix-plus-plant-fertilisers to a non-Melafix-minus-plant-fertilisers environment although I can't rule this out. Ordinarily, the hospital tank contains half main tank water and half new water.) This situation didn't improve. Having observed him more closely, it was evident that there was no way he'd survive several hours in there, let alone being dosed with medication. Ultimately, I decided he'd be better off in the main tank and for The Inevitable to occur in there with his tankmates for company. Within 5 seconds of his return, he coloured up and was happily pottering around the main tank with them, whether to die before tomorrow or within the next few weeks - but, in this case, it definitely seems the best place for him. For my own peace of mind, I'm glad I tried this - and that the answer was so clearcut.
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How are things this morning?
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With trepidation, I looked on the tank floor towards the bottom of / under the filter, fully expecting to see a corpse. Instead, the 'corpse' was nose down against a bottom filter intake, tail being sucked against the vent. However, I had a feeling that there was life/movement in the protruding eyes. True enough, over the course of eating my breakfast, the fish detached itself from the filter intake, its completely white 'corpse' moving/swaying around the tank as though in a stupor. S/he's been alternating over the course of the morning between (i) being completely white and en route into the next life and (ii) looking almost normal and difficult to distinguish from the others aside from the lump under the throat, the faster breathing and the whitened spine. S/he clearly is happy enough when in the latter stage, inquisitively exploring and observing proceedings in the tank. I've been putting Hikari First Bites in near her, to try to get her to ingest some food and gain some strength.
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I didn't anticipate this - the fish is more alive today than yesterday... more transparent than milky-white coloured. Perhaps the inevitable isn't going to be just as swift as I'd anticipated (famous last words). S/he seems content, and no others are showing any ill-effects (yet), so I can't hope for more than this.
I can't be certain that this, and what the previous 3 cardinals suffered from, is definitely NTD but it's the closest match to the symptoms [source: https://www.thesprucepets.com/neon-tetra-disease-1378484]:
Restlessness - NO
Fish begins to lose coloration, often in one part of the body - YES, DEFINITELY [MAIN SYMPTOM]
As cysts in the muscles develop, the body may become lumpy - YES, IN THE CASE OF AFFECTED CARDINALS ?1, 2 & 4 (AT THROAT)
Fish has difficulty swimming - NO
In advanced cases, the spine may become curved - NO, THANKFULLY
Secondary infections such as fin rot and bloating - YES, BLOATING
Other possibilities might be some form of bacterial infection or velvet disease. I know very little about the latter but the gold/peppery colour often described is not being experienced, unless this manifests itself as a white/transparent spine in a cardinal tetra.
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Glad to hear that the fish is comfortable. :)
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Thanks, LF.
The latest is that the fish is still very content with its tankmates but breathing even more rapidly, the white areas are looking a lot more 'ruffled' and there's a bubble on the enlargening lump at the throat area. Cardinal 1 developed this shortly before death - I can't get a good photo but a bit of googling suggests its dermosporidium/dermocystidium which seems in this case to be secondary to ?NTD.
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Sadly, death is imminent for the poor fish. :'( The situation is the same as yesterday but worse, and now he's floating (albeit serenely) round the tank, interspersed with some 'swimming' (ie use of his pectoral fins to keep him afloat). I'm going to honour his wishes and let nature take its course in there which is likely going to be this side of midnight.
Update 9.45pm: RIP. :'(
I'll keep reviewing what I may try for any future fish that develops this, depending on how they respond to (attempted) isolation in the hospital tank (which so far has been difficult to attain): if they seem unpertrubed, I might opt for Waterlife Protozin; if able to be captured but somewhat perturbed, then I might try eSHa 2000's shorter course of treatment.
Edited to add: 'Still' of zoomed-in video taken <2 hours before death - looks worse than to the human eye at the time (Mr FCMF barely noticed a problem).
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Sorry to hear that the fish has finally passed. :(
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Sorry to hear this @fcmf i know we’ve spoken a few times about the quality of these fish available ‘nowadays’. As usual, there is no more you could have done.
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Thanks for your kind words, both.
Of some comfort is that I managed to honour his wishes and also capture him in the net very soon post-mortem before anyone poked at him and potentially picked up the microsporidian parasite from his body if indeed this is NTD. He had been moving around the tank at odd angles and had just started floating nose down on the catappa leaf, so I removed him at that stage to check if it was the current causing the 'floating' and confirmed from the lack of movement over some time in the jug that he was dead.
What I do plan to do is to check my notes on here about the demise of the other fish since Dec in particular - I'm almost certain that their symptoms started pre- 'cardinal tetra era' (Sept 2019) and were completely unrelated to NTD (certainly its main features were not observed but the difficulty swimming and curved spine were two features although I thought more likely fish TB or simply old age), but just want to be sure. Another factor to bear in mind is that the lone neon green rasbora has had a very marked curved spine, and I can't be 100% certain that he's not carrying fish TB. I really hope there isn't something systemic in the tank but need to monitor carefully.
Updated to add: Think I have a plan of action for the future, in the event of any further incidences of this.