Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping => General Fishkeeping Chat => Topic started by: barneyadi on January 17, 2020, 03:30:51 PM
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Hi all
After some views on a possible new tank. I quite like angelfish but my current tanks are only 80cm long. I understand from research in various places that angelfish need 100cm and height. For example the Fluval Roma 200 has been recommended to me.
So firstly does the 100cm thing sound right? And secondly what other larger fish might go in a tank that size, apart from angelfish?
Cheers
Dave
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Yes, 100cm is the absolute minimum size for angelfish, and the Fluval Roma 200's dimensions are exactly the minimum recommended size - https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pterophyllum-scalare/ while a bigger tank than that (if you can fit it in and afford it) might expand your options.
As for other suggestions, I'm unable to answer that right now, but others might be able to provide inspiration.
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Angelfish are actually loosely shoaling fish and should be kept in groups. But there are downsides to this. Firstly it needs a very large tank, and then there's the risk of two pairing up and spawning, in which case the remaining three or four angels become targets.
One can be kept alone, but this is not the nature of this species.
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Maybe need to look at other fish who might benefit from a slightly larger tank.
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Pearl gouramis ;D After years looking at this fish, I finally have some as of this morning. They are one of the most peaceful gourami species, you just need a tank with low water flow, and non-nippy, sedate tank mates.
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Can anyone suggest the best place for a new tank? First pick shows window on right. It is north facing and has blinds on it. The second picture are places im thinking might work. Either in front of chimney breast, in the alcove in the corner or tank running into the alcove?
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@barneyadi The tank would work in your alcove, but visually you would get a great view and more access to the tank in front of the chimney breast. It would get some good natural light from the window as well, but not too much.
So there is one opinion for you :)
The wall opposite the window, about 12ft away, is 10ft long and goes into the alcove. Could that possibly get too much light from window?
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Pearl gouramis ;D After years looking at this fish, I finally have some as of this morning. They are one of the most peaceful gourami species, you just need a tank with low water flow, and non-nippy, sedate tank mates.
Hi @Sue
I used to keep a male/female pair of Pearl Gouramis but the male used to attack the female very aggressively at feeding time. Eventually, stress got the better of the female and she succumbed to illness/disease. The male was also aggressive towards other fish at feeding time. Pearl Gouramis are beautiful fish but I'd hesitate about getting another pair. You may well have more success.
JPC
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If the window is north facing the room should be fine to take a tank almost anywhere. If you go in through the course of the day you should be able to see if there is any direct light hitting the walls at "tank height". Some might be nervous of putting a tank in an alcove due to access issues but if you are planning on an internal filter(?) I would not say this was an issue. It more when you have hoses running down the side and/or back. If you can get a tank to fit that space I imagine it will look great.
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Thanks for the advice eon tank placement. Happy it seems my thinking was ok as well.
Still planning tank and fish. Have gone from getting slightly bigger fish to 3 or 4 goldfish to maybe back to small tropical schooling fish in larger groups than I can have in other tank. At least the time is allowing me to try and make a decision for when the time comes.
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Just thought I would update here but as you can see from other link, I have ordered a Fluval Roma 200. Now to decide what fish to put in it. Was quite surprised with using community creator that I could fit 54 guppies or neon tetras or 40 cherry barbs and still only be 80% full.
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Still planning tank and fish. Have gone from getting slightly bigger fish to 3 or 4 goldfish to maybe back to small tropical schooling fish in larger groups than I can have in other tank. At least the time is allowing me to try and make a decision for when the time comes.
The current 'thinking' around goldfish is that you should have 180L for a common/comet with an additional 40L for each additional fish (although they're best kept in a pond - or a tank of 4ft minimum for swimming length) or 140L for a fancy (eg fantail) with an additional 40L for each additional fish. As goldfish like to be in groups, that's why the Fluval 240L is usually recommended as ideal for goldfish so that it can house ~3 fancy goldfish. So, much as I'm a very fond fan of goldfish and it'd be great to have a goldfish keeper on here, I think you'd be best to stick to temperate or tropical fish.
Edited to add: Actually, that's outdated advice - see this http://injaf.org/aquarium-fish/the-goldfish-section/what-size-tank-for-goldfish/ for more up-to-date advice.
and still only be 80% full.
Don't forget to deduct 10% for substrate/decor (which you've probably done) and that it's best not to stock much more than this. Wow, though, a school of the numbers you describe would be fantastic!
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This might be a controversial opinion, article but it makes an interesting read:
Why Goldfish Tank Size Isn't as Important as You Think (https://puregoldfish.com/tank-size/)
Yes, that website is well-known as it comes across as though it knows what it's talking about but its advice is seriously dubious and the arguments not cogent and actually contrary to all the evidence - in fact, a perfect example of how newbies thinking of getting a goldfish could so easily get confused as they don't have the background knowledge to decipher good quality from poor quality sources of info on the internet. I'd love to have another goldfish (although would feel unfaithful to my dearly departed ones :'(), this time kept the correct way, but couldn't possibly try to convince myself on the basis of that website when I now know otherwise on the basis of much better quality sources.
A main reason a lot of fish don't reach the size mentioned is because they aren't in optimum conditions - only when kept in such does it become clearer what size they ought to be reaching. One issue I feel uneasy about is the size of my x-ray tetras - they are the 4/5cm expected size, and in the minimum recommended sized tank, but stature/body do not resemble some I've seen recently which have clearly lived in larger tanks and so I have probably inadvertently been stunting their growth.
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I have been doing a lot of research about goldfish keeping and, although they look great, with so many different and strong opinions I think I am going to stick to tropical etc. My ideas for each tanks are.
Tank 1 - Harlequin Rasbora, Neon Tetras and another Tetra I cant remember name of or pencilfish.
Tank 2- Probably guppies, but might put them in the larger tank 3.
Tank 3 - Thinking of having various barbs.
I cant see any problems but if anyone else does please let me know.
Thanks.
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Don't forget that guppies need harder water than the other fish you mention. I can't remember if we've talked about your tap water hardness, but if it's soft you'll need to 'harden' the water for guppies, and keep only hard water fish with them.
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@fishtales It is strange but the more I look into things the more I get confused. The internet is a wonderful thing but at the end of the day there are many different views and opinions which for a newbie could put them off the hobby. I appreciate somethings work for some and some things for others. It is not an exact science. Take tank cycling, there are those that say fish free cycling is best and only way to go, there are some that do fish in cycling and it works for them and then there are others who use an item to help them cycle. To me as long as it works for you and doesn't harm the fish, that is the way to go.
@Sue i do have salt to put into tank however a lfs I was talking too who has never given me bad advice says his water is similar to mine (a little soft) and he has guppies and has no problems. I might still add the salt as just an extra layer of protection. Thinking of getting platies and swordtails to go with guppies. I think best to get 2 or 3 different types of barbs for other tank, as not sure who they might get on with.
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I think the key to distinguishing 'bona fide' and dodgy info (or opinions) on the internet is how they address the science or evidence - stunting is documented in the literature. Fishbase and Seriously Fish are known to be based on the science and evidence in aquaculture (or equivalent). Sites like INJAF have evidence-informed opinions whereas sites like puregoldfish have evidence-dismissing opinions (as you'll see from the mention of keeping goldfish in a 3-gallon tank and various other clearly unethical comments) and a whole host of other sites no doubt have random opinions plucked out of the air.
In terms of fish-in cycles and keeping fish outside their required hardness range, in both cases it can cause long-term stress to the fish (eg osmotic stress) so they may survive but be more likely to succumb to illness or premature death. With fish-in cycles, monitoring water quality a couple of times per day to ensure no ammonia or nitrite presence, and addressing accordingly, is key.
Barbs - cherries and 5-bands tend to be more peaceful. This might be useful: https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/bring-on-the-barbs/
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i do have salt to put into tank however a lfs I was talking too who has never given me bad advice says his water is similar to mine (a little soft) and he has guppies and has no problems. I might still add the salt as just an extra layer of protection. Thinking of getting platies and swordtails to go with guppies. I think best to get 2 or 3 different types of barbs for other tank, as not sure who they might get on with.
What kind of salt do you mean?
Aquarium salt is just sodium chloride and won't make the water harder. You need something like Rift Lake salts which contain the hardness minerals (calcium and magnesium).
The other chap's guppies may look as though they are doing OK but they will be suffering from calcium depletion and won't live as longs as they should.
Guppies, platies and swordtails all need hard water to do well. If kept in a tank with just them it is quite easy to make the water hard enough for them.
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i do have salt to put into tank however a lfs I was talking too who has never given me bad advice says his water is similar to mine (a little soft) and he has guppies and has no problems. I might still add the salt as just an extra layer of protection. Thinking of getting platies and swordtails to go with guppies. I think best to get 2 or 3 different types of barbs for other tank, as not sure who they might get on with.
What kind of salt do you mean?
Aquarium salt is just sodium chloride and won't make the water harder. You need something like Rift Lake salts which contain the hardness minerals (calcium and magnesium).
The other chap's guppies may look as though they are doing OK but they will be suffering from calcium depletion and won't live as longs as they should.
Guppies, platies and swordtails all need hard water to do well. If kept in a tank with just them it is quite easy to make the water hard enough for them.
Hi @Sue i got told to use something called JBL Aquadur. Just got to work out dosage before I start.
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Hi @Sue i got told to use something called JBL Aquadur. Just got to work out dosage before I start.
Hi @barneyadi
I think you'll find it was me that suggested you may wish to consider adding JBL Aquadur here:
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-advice/water-parameters-3895/msg47109/#msg47109
JBL Aquadur, as stated in the link, is 'one possible product' to increase your water hardness.
JPC
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Hi @Sue i got told to use something called JBL Aquadur. Just got to work out dosage before I start.
Hi @barneyadi
I think you'll find it was me that suggested you may wish to consider adding JBL Aquadur here:
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-advice/water-parameters-3895/msg47109/#msg47109
JBL Aquadur, as stated in the link, is 'one possible product' to increase your water hardness.
JPC
Yes, knew someone had told me about it @jaypeecee
Now got to consider which way to go fish wise in two tanks. Guppies, Platyies and Swordtails make sense in one tank. Just the other i am struggling with.
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JBL Aquadur is fine. It's just that when most people say salt, they mean plain sodium chloride, the same stuff we put on chips and sold as aquarium salt - you had me worried :)
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Ok, I have seen some fish that come under the heading Dwarf Cichlids. All of them advise that you have peaceful tank mates as if not the cichlids will hide.
Can anyone give me an idea of how many cichlids you should keep and suitable tank mates?
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This doesn’t seem quite right to me... you would ordinarily have a pair of dwarf cichlids and they are most likely to be the more aggressive fish compared to many of the other classic community tank inhabitants such as terras or corys.
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With dwarf cichlids from south America it is usual to have tetras or pencilfish in the tank to act as dither fish. This simply means fish that swim in the higher water levels and their presence shows the cichlids that it is safe to come out.
Cories can be a problem if a pair of cichlids breed because cories have no concept of territory and never learn to stay away from eggs/fry so they get picked on.
As for numbers of cichlids, that depends on the species and the size of the tank. But whichever species, only only one species per tank. Some dwarf cichlids live as bonded pairs while some live as harems - 1 male and several females.
With a bonded pair, they must choose each other. You can't buy any male and any female as they may well not get on and could easily end up with a dead fish. I can explain how to do this if you wish.
Harems occur with some species of apistogramma. The tank size will limit the number of females. Each female needs enough space to form a territory. If this is the 240 litre, maybe 1 male 2 females. But not all apistos are harem rbreeders. With some you need a bonded pair.
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Hi @Sue and @Matt
The cichlid I was looking at was a apistogramma cacatuoides. On Seriously Fish it says it needs dither fish whilst on another it states 'These little cichlids are timid fish and tank mates should be chosen to compliment this. As with most cichlids, they can become territorial during breeding. They can be kept with other dwarf cichlids.'
So reading things neons and pencilfish would be happy?
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I would ignore wherever it was saying cockatoos can be kept with other cichlids. But neons and pencilfish would be very good dither fish.
You need to watch out for sleeper males with this fish. These are males which look like females to escape being bullied by a dominant male. I once bought a pair from a breeder (not a shop) and they turned out to be 2 males. The way to spot a sleeper male is that it will never be the brilliant bright yellow of a female, so look for the yellowest fish in the shop tank.
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I would ignore wherever it was saying cockatoos can be kept with other cichlids. But neons and pencilfish would be very good dither fish.
You need to watch out for sleeper males with this fish. These are males which look like females to escape being bullied by a dominant male. I once bought a pair from a breeder (not a shop) and they turned out to be 2 males. The way to spot a sleeper male is that it will never be the brilliant bright yellow of a female, so look for the yellowest fish in the shop tank.
Thanks @Sue i did think that keeping with other cichlids was a no no. How many cichlids of this type would be ok? Would it just be a pair?
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If this is a 240 litre, one male, 2 females should be fine. Make sure you have more caves than females, evenly spaced through the tank. Females can be picky about which cave they like so you need to give them a choice. Caves can be anything - coconut shells, a piece of wood with a cavity, a small terracotta plant pot with a hole cut in the rim and stood upside down, a short length of pvc piping, a slate cave....... You are limited only by your imagination :)
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Sue posted as I was typing but I agree they can be kept as a pair or as a harem with one male and multiple females from the quick bit of research I did.
I’d be interested in opinions on having 2 females as I think I’d want to go for a pair or a male with 3 or more females. I feel like 2 females would open up one of the females (either less dominant, or not paired, or not breeding) to being picked on.
I’ll keep researching... but don’t know if anyone has experience with this?
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Nothing is ever clear cut with the internet but I think I’m leaning towards 3 or 4 females being best and in your tank size I would say go for 3 if your going to do a harem (which also seems the best approach from what I’ve read). A trusted poster on another forum has direct experience with this... see post 4 here:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/apistogramma.18671/ (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/apistogramma.18671/)
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Nothing is ever clear cut with the internet but I think I’m leaning towards 3 or 4 females being best and in your tank size I would say go for 3 if your going to do a harem (which also seems the best approach from what I’ve read). A trusted poster on another forum has direct experience with this... see post 4 here:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/apistogramma.18671/ (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/apistogramma.18671/)
@Sue @Matt the Cockatoo Cichlid i am looking at is the dwarf variety (supposedly grows to 7cm). Does that make any difference to numbers?
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No I’m pretty sure we are all on the same track with the fish choice...
Apistogramma cacatuoides
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Yeah, says on seriously fish they grow to 7.5cm and you can have a pair in a 60x30cm tank.
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So the tank has arrived, a Roma 200. Had a slight delivery issue, as they delivered tank one day and cabinet today, but here it is put in place. I tried two other places but the floor was very uneven.
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:cheers:
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Exciting times. :afro
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After some views on a possible new tank. I quite like angelfish but my current tanks are only 80cm long. I understand from research in various places that angelfish need 100cm and height. For example the Fluval Roma 200 has been recommended to me.
Hi @barneyadi
Your new tank looks nice. Is that a good solid floor that you have it on? It looks it. Just that 200kg+ possibly benefits from a solid floor. No doubt you've already considered this.
Out of interest, what fish do you keep in your current tanks?
JPC
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Hi @jaypeecee
Floor is very solid, got 2 other tanks in other room with same flooring.
As for stock, I have started a new link here. https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-advice/stocking-ideas/
Any thoughts?
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[Some posts missing in this thread as, regrettably for us given that she was a valued member, former member Fishtales left the forum and deleted most of her posts.]