Tropical Fish Forum

Tropical Fish Keeping => General Fishkeeping Chat => Topic started by: TopCookie on May 06, 2018, 10:38:50 AM

Title: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: TopCookie on May 06, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
Fish are rarely credited with much intelligence, outside of obviously strong instincts etc... 

I'm just curious now about the how and the why was it that when I started with one Platy in my community tank, he was peaceful...  When I added two more, all hell broke loose...  The two new ones were an entirely different colour, but the original one wasn't fooled for one second, he knew immediately that he'd suddenly been endowed with two new males of the same species, regardless of how different they looked...  That appears to me to be more than simply instinct...

The question I pose here is whether or not fish are more intelligent than we often give them credit for...?
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: fcmf on May 06, 2018, 12:09:39 PM
Sounds as though he wasn't pleased with his tank having more than himself as the one male platy in it.

I've always thought that fish are more intelligent than given credit for. Additionally, it's amazing how much human behaviour (eg office politics) resembles what goes on in a fishtank. I strongly recommend you read this http://jonathan-balcombe.com/what-a-fish-knows/
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: Littlefish on May 06, 2018, 07:07:48 PM
And we cant forget the RS Fish School training kit <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-hq8In8STs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-hq8In8STs</a>
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: Matt on May 06, 2018, 11:03:57 PM
I know I read somewhere that it was shown that goldfish have more like a 3 month memory than the commonly thought 3 second memory...
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: Sue on May 07, 2018, 09:57:08 AM
I read somewhere that the 3 second memory was a Jasper Carrot joke - the goldfish swims once round its bowl, then because it can't remember it was there before, it swims round again. And again.

Fish do have more intelligence than we give them credit for, particularly the predatory fish. A bit like cows vs lions. Shoaling fish just need to know to stay in a group but their predators need to be able to find them and catch them.
Some fish can be trained, or even train themselves. My betta tank is on a worktop in the kitchen. To the left of the tank is a tissue box, and to the left of that is the food tub. Above the food tub is the wall cupboard with the biscuit box and husband's chocolate. All my bettas have known where I keep the food tub, and whenever I reached for it they became excited. But this training/intelligence also has its limits because they also became excited when ever my husband got his chocolate or the biscuits out of the wall cupboard because they were in the same direction as the fish food  ::)
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: fcmf on May 07, 2018, 07:03:54 PM
I used to feed my goldfish frozen food, until he was gravely ill / almost at death's door one time and the only reason I could put it down to was the frozen food; anyway, I never fed it to him again. Several years later, he heard the sound of a blister pack opening and went into a frenzy of excitement, presumably remembering it as the sound the frozen food blister pack made. Poor lad, as it was simply a paracetamol tablet I was retrieving for myself. For that reason, I strongly believe goldfish's memories are far longer than even the 3 months which I've read mentioned as well.

I love the story about Sue and her son swapping their clothes to see how the betta reacted... A little hunt on the forum might find that one.

Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: TopCookie on May 11, 2018, 12:03:48 PM
My remaining Platy is still net dodging, lol...  the little tinker...!!!  I would swear he knows that the day is coming where I would take him out in order to allow the Espei Rasboras in...!!!
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: Sue on May 11, 2018, 01:46:04 PM
I love the story about Sue and her son swapping their clothes to see how the betta reacted... A little hunt on the forum might find that one.


My first betta used to flare at my son, who was in his 20s at that time. The betta only flared at him, no-one else. My son swore he had done nothing to upset the betta. From the tank position in the kitchen the betta could see the back door, and I can only assume it was the outside light, triggered by IR, that turned on as my son returned from an evening out that alerted the betta because the betta would be waiting in the corner of the tank nearest the door and flaring as son came in.
We finally worked out what it was. The betta hated black. My son was going through a phase of wearing nothing but black clothes. To prove my hypothesis, I took some washing out of the ironing basket and I put on his black shirt and he put on my brightly coloured blouse. The betta then flared at me and ignored my son.
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: TopCookie on May 11, 2018, 03:04:23 PM
I agree with @fcmf ...  That's a great story...   :D
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: jaypeecee on November 06, 2019, 09:31:57 AM
Hi Folks,

I just discovered this and it's well worth a read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_intelligence

It also has many references for those who want to read more on this fascinating topic.

JPC
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: Hampalong on November 06, 2019, 10:17:28 AM
@Sue your story about the clothes is actually a strange one, to me, because the more intelligent fish (and Oscars ;)) will react to their owner/feeder whatever clothes they’re wearing. And they can tell who you are as soon as you enter the far side of the room. I’ve even gone back to a shop weeks after I’ve given them fish and the fish have recognised me.

Re the platies reacting to platies of different colours... fish are also aware of the smell/taste of other fish aswell as what they look like. Remove a predator from a tank and then add “little fish” without changing the water and they’ll be frightened, because they can smell/taste the predator in the water.

The Wikipedia article is interesting, but what I don’t like are the reasons given for the various behaviours, which of course are all conjecture assuming thought patterns and reasoning the same as ours. Truth is, we don’t know how fish think, or even what senses they have. There are more than five senses, but science is limited by only understanding our five, and having to explain all behaviour with only those five.
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: fcmf on November 06, 2019, 04:34:49 PM
I think it would depend on how distinctive particular characteristics are. For example, if a couple lived in a household, and one were extremely heavy-footed and the other very nimble, or one very tall and the other very short, the sound or outline/silhouette respectively might be the cues that the fish picks up on to recognise someone if there is a marked distinction. However, if there isn't much of a contrast, it may well be that the fish picks up on clothing colour as the distinctive characteristic. [Even among humans, people notice particular features of others, and any alterations in those, to greater or lesser degrees than other people do - whether that be a change of hair colour, facial hair, weight alteration, etc.]

I mentioned about swapping some water between tanks in the final few days of quaranting my cardinals prior to the move into the main tank - it was as though the fish detected the presence of other fish and started behaving slightly differently and zooming around to seek out the new fish.

I haven't read the Wikipedia article yet but will do so later. There is certainly some fascinating research in the field e.g. https://www.findaphd.com/phds/project/exploring-fish-cognition-using-moveable-fish-tanks/?p107009

Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: jaypeecee on November 06, 2019, 10:19:27 PM
Hi Folks,

Forgive me if someone has already mentioned this but my hunch is that fish recognize voices of those around them. So, if I speak (and lighting is starting to fall in the evening), the fish will usually come to the water surface. They know it's feeding time. But if my wife speaks at the same time in the early evening, it does not elicit the same response from the fish.

The above observation comes as no surprise to me. It is well-known that underwater creatures communicate by sound and they are sensitive to vibrations via their lateral line.

JPC
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: Sue on November 07, 2019, 08:43:29 AM
I have not noticed that, to be honest. I know I talk to my betta, and even my husband does too. He lives in the kitchen so he's used to people around all the time. I've only had my current betta a week and a half, I'll have to experiment with him.
The main tank is in the dining room. People in there are usually sitting down eating and talking, or just passing through from the kitchen to the hall. It would not surprise me if the fish in the main tank can't tell one human for another. The only time a human is close to the tank is when the food goes in or during a water change. Or when I sit quietly on a chair watching them  :)
Title: Re: Intelligent Fish...?
Post by: Matt on November 07, 2019, 08:11:52 PM
Whatever it is I suspect that the world of senses is more complex than we all realise.

If you go through WHAT we sense:
Chemicals (taste/smell)
Physical objects (touch)
Gravity (balance)
Temperature (different to touch!)
Light (sight)
Sound (hearing)
Other people (that feeling that someone's staring at you)

1 There are a lot more than the traditional 5
2 Like the last one... theres some which scientifically would seem to be hocus pocus... i know that I know when someone is staring at me tho...

Does the fishes lateral sense pressure or vibration...
What other sense do they have we don't? Plenty if animals out there that can sense things we can't... probably more than we realise...