Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping => General Fishkeeping Chat => Topic started by: Puffin on May 08, 2014, 04:13:19 PM
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Well I bought a tank today, ordered and paid for at my lfs. Pretty good price, similar to internet prices. Anyway, I'm in two minds about the shop itself. Friendly helpful staff, great prices on everything, but the tanks containing fish for sale look a bit grubby, not like the pristine ones in p@h! Maybe that's a good thing!? They are my only two experiences of fish shops, well that and upstairs in Cardiff market. I tried to visit another independent yesterday but they were shut, no explanation as to why.
What should I be looking out for in an lfs?
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oooo - what sort of tank did you get?
A few things to look out for:
Dead fish.
Diseased fish.
Incompatable fish kept together.
Sort of casually hang around while the staff are talking to other customers and listen to what they say. Are they selling tanks AND fish at the same time? Do they mention cycling? Are they selling one or two fish when the fish is a shoaling fish and really needs to be in groups of six or more?
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It might seem a bit OTT but I would suggest that you visit your prospective lfs a number of times before you actually buy any fish - the odd dead or poorly fish isn't the end of the world as this doesn't necessarily indicate poor water quality or disease; some fish are just genetically weak and something like the stress of being moved can tip them over the edge, but if there are quite a few and/or they are left in the tanks for an extended period then this isn't a good sign. The multiple visits can also help you get a feel for the store and staff (as per Colin's advice re: what staff are saying etc).
:isay: Someone has also previously suggested that you should ask the staff some questions about fish-keeping to which you already know the answer (or have researched in advance) and see whether the staff give you the correct advice - again, referring to Colin's advice, your could ask them about shoal numbers or the nitrogen cycle for example. Bit sneaky and haven't tried it myself but I can see how it could help differentiate your responsible lfs from those which aren't!
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I went for the aqua nano 40 in the end as I just really liked it, and so does the husband. I know it's small, but there's still a decent variety of fish that are ok in it according to the community creator. I'm going to try to squeeze some plants in too, hopefully using the soil under sand substrate.
So do you think grubby tanks is just cosmetic? I mean they aren't filthy, just not super clean.
It's just a small shop so not really heard what they say to other customers yet. I would like to check out some more local shops, but this is very close and just off a street I walk down every day.
Btw saw a lovely looking catfish in one of the tanks (oh the other thing about this shops the labels are all over the place so neon tetras labelled as wcmm etc) they were tiny, 2-3cm and had really distinct leopard markings. Googled leopard Cory, but not quite like that.
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Btw saw a lovely looking catfish in one of the tanks (oh the other thing about this shops the labels are all over the place so neon tetras labelled as wcmm etc) they were tiny, 2-3cm and had really distinct leopard markings. Googled leopard Cory, but not quite like that.
You could use this as a test for the shop - ask them about the fish; what species it is, how big it grows (some catfish can get huge!), what water conditions it requires, how easy it is to look after etc, then go home and research it to see whether their advice stacks up. ;)
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Btw saw a lovely looking catfish in one of the tanks (oh the other thing about this shops the labels are all over the place so neon tetras labelled as wcmm etc) they were tiny, 2-3cm and had really distinct leopard markings. Googled leopard Cory, but not quite like that.
One of these perhaps (Corydoras trilineatus):
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/fishtankforum_2009/Corydoras_trilineatus.jpg)
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Similar, but much darker, ie much more of the dark coloured markings.
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Puffin, Is is a Julii Cory? I think these are super cute but I believe many of them are misnamed in fish shops so I may not be looking at Julii afterall...
I have the same tank as you and considering a group of panda corys. My concern at the mo is what to put in first. I'm waiting for my tank to cycle but still won't be able to fully stock at the end of the cycle and most of the fish I like want to be with a group of buddies. Also my GH reading is about 8, but my PH is about 8-8.4 so...
Oh and I have discovered, like ColinB, that the thingies that attach the lid do indeed break very easily. My son dropped it on the floor and three of them have snapped! Hoping I can get some spares (out of his pocket money!!)
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Similar, but much darker, ie much more of the dark coloured markings.
Was it definitely a Cory? Perhaps a Mosaic Cory (sorry no pic to add but loads should come up if you Google it). Otherwise there are quite a few catfish with leopard type markings and some could perhaps resemble a Cory when small.
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I would also add that your p@h may look clean but the advice of the staff can be awful. I understand that it is down to the individual store manager how much training the staff get and lots don't give any fish-specific training at all. Just general training in how to make a sale, and how to act knowledgeable even if they haven't a clue.
Mind you, a lot of small independents are as bad.
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This is the closest I've seen. Came up when I googled mosaic Cory.
Not 100% sure though. Need to go back and get a pic. They were really stunning! I'd say it was a catfish, are all catfish corydoras?
Not yet for me though! From what I read cories need a mature tank.
Loubaa, how is your tank cycling? Are the kids exited? How old is your son? Mine is 5 and I have a three year old girl so luckily, the sideboard we got from the charity shop is nice and high so should keep the tank in view but out of reach.
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Not all catfish are cories. Plecs are catfish too, as are glass catfish, which you'll find under miscellaneous in the fish profiles.
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Yeah, there's loads of different catfish but Cory's are a very common and popular type (for good reason, they're great fish!). Catfish are often 'bottom dwellers' but there are varieties which happily swim about in the upper/middle areas of a tank (the Upside-down Catfish is one of my favourite examples). Many can also grow very large - fish-keepers are often caught out by Plecs which are usually a nice compact 2-3 inch in their LFS but then grow large enough to eat their Yorkshire Terrier (OK, I exaggerate a little and a Plec would never eat a Dog anyway - they're far too hairy ;)).
There's a section on catfish in the fish profiles section Sue has referred to - the Pictus Catfish and Cuckoo Synodontis are two non-Cory's which have leopard like markings and could potentially resemble a Cory when young/small.
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Could have been this!
Described as a pictus catfish, looks very like the mosaic Cory to me!
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Found both kids sitting on the sideboard this morning, so my idea of the tank lid being nice and out of reach up there was sadly flawed!
Oh dear.
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Oh and I have discovered, like ColinB, that the thingies that attach the lid do indeed break very easily. My son dropped it on the floor and three of them have snapped! Hoping I can get some spares (out of his pocket money!!)
Oh dear! I've only found one place to get spares from.... and that's here (http://www.aquarium-parts.co.uk/aquanano-40-spares.html). Nearly at the bottom of the page. Not cheap for a couple of plastic clips.
Here's a few things I would do with the Cube40 if I bought one again.
Looking from the back of the tank there are the three filter compartments. The instruction book got the water flow wrong with mine (they could've changed it by now 'cos that was two years ago). The water flow goes in at the top of the left hand chamber and down through the black sponge. Then across into the bottom of the middle chamber and up through the noodles. Then across the top into the right hand chamber with the pump and the heater (and the thermometer in mine).
The glass separater between the middle and the right hand chamber was not sealed at the bottom and I got quite a bit of flow sneaking under there. I've since blocked it, but it would've been easier and more effective to seal it with aquarium silicone before I set it all up. Again, they may have addressed that problem.
I would re-model the black sponge. I would cut the top 10cm off the sponge and push the large piece into the left chamber down to the bottom. I would then cut 4cm off the remaining sponge. I would buy some of the green medium-pored filter foam from the fish shop, and some of the white fine filter floss, and use the black sponge as a template to cut correct sized pieces off them. (The white filter floss is quite thick, but can be stripped through the middle like cutting a sponge cake for the filling. Yum!)
Then I would load these on top of the black sponge that's in the chamber. This way the water flows through 4cm of coarse black sponge, then 4cm of medium green sponge, the 2cm of white filter floss. This will keep all the debris out of the filter compartments and allow the large, lower piece of black sponge to act as a housing for the bacterial bugglies without being clogged by sediment etc.
Part of your weekly maintenance would be then to pull the top three layers of filter and squeeze them in old tank water (and occasionally replace the white floss) and the majority of the black sponge can be left undisturbed.
I would also replace the ceramic noodles with scintered glass ones that I've linked to before.
Hope this helps, and sorry to be long-winded. It's a great tank and I hope, when we've hopefully moved house later this year, to buy the 100litre version that's 60cm long that's only just been released.
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Thanks Colin. I think I understand the rationale for the filter floss. Will have to look out for that in the shops. But why the green medium sponge?
And the glass media, I did follow your link the other day. These are capable of housing anaerobic bacteria too, right? The ones that break down nitrate? Is that why you prefer them? Could you just add them to the remaining space, ie together with the media provided? There seems to be a fair bit of space.
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Thanks Colin. I think I understand the rationale for the filter floss. Will have to look out for that in the shops. But why the green medium sponge?
And the glass media, I did follow your link the other day. These are capable of housing anaerobic bacteria too, right? The ones that break down nitrate? Is that why you prefer them? Could you just add them to the remaining space, ie together with the media provided? There seems to be a fair bit of space.
The green sponge filters out particles that are small enough to get through the black sponge. The floss filters out the rest. It's mainly because the green sponge is squeezeable and can be re-used for many years and the filter floss can't really be cleaned effectively and has to be replaced when dirty. Using the green means less floss replacement.
Yep, you can add the scintered glass in with the other noodles. That's what I did for six months so the bugglies could migrate and colonise the new stuff. Then I replaced the ceramic with glass over the course of a few months.
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Gosh and I thought we'd get fish 'cos they'd be easy! This whole thing is giving my brain a good work out at least.
Puffin, tank cycle as expected I believe - as in nothing much is happening...
kids are 8 (boy) and 5 (girl). They want fish at home too now - and spotted my husband looking at tanks online the other day... ;)
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So I haven't got my tanks yet, coming end of the week. And I know I won't be stocking it with fish for quite a white, have done lots of reading on nitrogen cycle.
But...
What do you think about this for fish in the aqua nano 40?
The community creator on here seems happy, but what are real people's experiences?
I don't want anything too tricky to look after at first. So I chose panda Cory over salt and pepper catfish. I really like the galaxy rasbora but not sure how easy they are to find in the shops!
What about otocinclus? Can they be kept with cories?
I will also probably add snails and or shrimp.
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Sorry it's so blurry!
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I really like it, except for the Ottos. They need to be in bigger groups really, and they need a bit of specialist looking after in the food department. I also object to the way I've heard that they are caught. The river is cyanided so they get paralised - then they're scooped out by the thousand and die off in the hundreds during transport. See here (http://www.otocinclus.com/newoto.html).
I'd add the Cherry Barbs first (3m:3f) and then leave it for a month. I'd add the Panda Corys last, after six months or so.
p.s. It's not blurry if you click on it and look at the enlarged version.
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That's great, thanks Colin.
No I will avoid the ottos then, not into that at all!
I think all the fish profiles said well planted tank, or didn't specify. Which is what I'm after as I want plants.
So that's next, after the tank arrives.
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Is the filter really oversized external? That looks like a lot of fish for a tank that size ..........
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I don't know Richard, I think someone on here who has one said that's what they use. Can't remember who!
I'll put them through again and change the filter.
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Ok, so with a different filter I would need to reduce the numbers... 7 tetra, 4 Cory, 4 fiveband and 6 cherry barbs. Or just reduce to 3 cherry barbs and keep the rest the same.
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It's an absolutely huge filter in a Cube40. Its got about the same amount of filtration sponge and 'noodles' as my 1200litre pond filter has - though it doesn't have the flow rate. I use 'oversized external' in my Community Creator and I'm just over 100% stocked with never a hint of ammonia and nitrite, and the sponge (after six months or so) built up enough nitrate eating bugglies to keep my nitrates at 10ppm, which was the same as in my water-change water.
If you are going to reduce numbers, then remove one type of fish entirely so the remaining fish stay in big enough groups.
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Thanks. I'll see how I get on, and miss out one of the groups if necessary. But with oversize external filter selected its not 100% stocked so am hopeful given your experience. Defo will get those glass thingies though.
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There are a couple of other things to consider :
If the filter is that powerful, does it create a strong current in the tank and if so, will the chosen fish be happy with that?
There is more to overcrowding in a tank than just the chemistry. The fish will be in close contact with each other and so they have to get on OK to avoid stress. Cherry barbs each like to have their own little territory, for example. Planting the tank will help a lot as it gives fish the opportunity to escape from each other when they want a bit of "peace and quiet".
I would suggest putting in the cherry barbs first as they are pretty hardy fish, with maybe five band barbs next. The Otocinclus need some algal growth in the tank so should perhaps be left till last.
I still have tanks planted up 3 months ago but without fish yet as I like the plants to be well established and filling the tank first. It is a bit extreme, I know, but as a general principle being patient when you are establishing the tank will pay off in the long run.
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Thanks both, really useful information and lots to consider.
I'm going to be asking about plants next!
Found another lfs and this one is super professional looking, quite a contrast to tiny,dark,cramped shop down the road. They sell plants, (as well as a lot of fish I've not seen in other shops) and I'm probably going to get some floating plants from them. They also sell some others in plant pots. So first question is, do you keep them in the pots (like you might do in a pond) or can you take them out and plant in the substrate?
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I realise the above might make me sound quite clueless. But I'm finding it a lot more difficult to source / retain info re plants than I am about fish!
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Btw I think I have identified my mystery Cory.
" C. trilneatus: Aquatic plants are not a feature of this species‘ natural waters. " from superfish. Gutted!!
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Aquatic plants are not a feature of the natural habitat of many of our fish, but they will still enjoy being in a planted tank. In nature, many take refuge among dead leaves, tree roots etc and so they still appreciate the cover provided by plants, which also look a lot nicer in your tank than recreating the "natural" look with lots of rotting leaves and wood............ . For Corydoras, just make sure you leave a good sized area of sand/gravel for them to grub around in.
The pots plants come in are usually very small and so you should plant them in the substrate, though you could use larger pots if you wanted to. Plant roots will spread through the substrate and help keep it aerated. Personally, I found potted plants grossly overpriced and so I bought mine loose off EBay and all grew away with no problems.
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Btw I think I have identified my mystery Cory.
" C. trilneatus: Aquatic plants are not a feature of this species‘ natural waters. " from superfish. Gutted!!
Seriously Fish says the same about plants not being a feature of it's natural waters, although it also adds: "Alternatively, it also does well in a more standard, preferably well-planted tank". Just remember to keep the substrate relatively fine and rounded and they should do fine.
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???
Seriously fish! Yes that's what I meant! Not super fish. That's a tank make right?!
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Btw I think I have identified my mystery Cory.
" C. trilneatus: Aquatic plants are not a feature of this species‘ natural waters. " from superfish. Gutted!!
Seriously Fish says the same about plants not being a feature of it's natural waters, although it also adds: "Alternatively, it also does well in a more standard, preferably well-planted tank". Just remember to keep the substrate relatively fine and rounded and they should do fine.
Lol so it does!
I should really learn to read the whole article. I just gave up after reading that!
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Seriously fish! Yes that's what I meant! Not super fish. That's a tank make right?!
I thought it was odd that two different websites were quoting the exact same text......... :rotfl:
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Thanks for the earlier advice re the mystery catfish in the local shop btw dbaggie. I will do that next time I'm in. Went to our local maidenhead aquatics today. Had LOTS of fish!! Found a couple of the ones on my list. Ember tetras were there and were lovely, cherry barbs too. Although I've been advised tank may be too small for them. Several cories, I find I'm not into the albino ones. Do cories prefer to be on substrate the same colour as themselves?
I also found celestial pearl danios. They were very dull compared to pics on here. Is that due to their young age? I hope so and not nutrition or stress.
I'm ruling out ottos as I'm interested in sustainability as well as animal welfare so fish associated with dodgy methods of catching are a no for me.
They also were advertising a bag of their mature filter media for £1. Sounds useful, has anyone else bought this? It would be great if I could get the tank off to a good start when it arrives.
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Ember tetras are lovely little fish - you won't get much smaller to be honest - IMO a shoal of these should be fine for your tank.
Yes, the CP Danios will be nothing like their full colour whilst in the shop - shop tanks can be quite stressful environments and this prevents many fish from displaying their full colouration. I got some CPD's at the weekend to add to my existing ones and the difference in colour is really noticeable - their colour will improve as they become settled in the tank. However, it is also the case that females aren't as deep coloured as the males and the picture shown on here is likely to have been taken in ideal conditions.
Its generally advisable to go with relatively natural (stone/sand) or dark substrates - avoid the 'day-glo' pinks, oranges, blues etc as these colours can detract from the fish colours. I have a green substrate as I wanted it to compliment the plant colours, but I've also mixed in some black so that it isn't like a solid green carpet (see pic - although it's actually a darker green than it appears in this pic!).
Not sure on the filter media - it's the bacteria in mature filter media which is important but these will generally die off when taken of the water for any prolonged length of time - how is the filter media stored in the shop?
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Hm, not sure. I'm not great at asking questions in shops. Find I forget everything. Anyway all the shops I've been in recently seemed to prefer to let me browse without speaking to me, and I'm happy with that atm.
There was a window showing their filter media in action, and a poster next to it explaining the method, (one agitated tank for ammonia /nitrite eaters, and one still for anaerobic bacteria.) and saying you could buy their media for a quid. The media looked like those pasta wheels!
Lovely looking panda cories, if that's what they are. (?)
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHnPheCzTz0L8TRruqs-LdX50yaet-NMKCfgmYEXk-IR76Pw8j)
The media looked like those pasta wheels!
What... Like these?
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Lovely looking panda cories, if that's what they are. (?)
Yes :)
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Just like those Steve.
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The media looked like those pasta wheels!
It's called Kaldnes. There are a few variations upon the basic idea. They are designed to be in what's called an "agitated bed" filter. You half-fill a container with this stuff, then using either a powerhead or an airpump, you agitate the media in a continuous cycle. It's supposed to be very efficient. It's also supposed to be able to run and never need cleaning! I'm a bit dubious about the latter claim myself. You can also use sand as a media in which case it gets called a "fluidised bed filter"!
What I am not dubious about is the advantages of seeding a new filter with mature media. MA are a chain of shops that has, as far as I can recollect, an unsullied reputation. I know that the branches in my area uses this stuff in their own filters, presumably that's where they obtain their samples for sale. The bacteria will stay viable within the media for a considerable time. And for £1, it's a no-brainer as far as I am concerned.
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Thanks, sounds good. Obviously in my tank it won't be in this agitated system, but would still get the benefits of the live bacteria.
Just need to see if they sell it to anyone, or just those who bought their rank from them!
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I've got some petty rubbish photos of the mystery cory. I would have asked the bloke in the lfs but he was incredibly busy with a load of customers who came I just after I did. No label on the tank!
Any ideas? Or are the photos just too rubbish?
Btw collecting the tank tomorrow! Been sieving garden soil for the base layer of substrate, which I'll use unless I chicken out. I recon the high levels of ammonia in a fish less cycle must kill off any baddies right?
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Hmm, they are no good at all are they?! Didn't realise they were moving so fast!
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Hi Puffin,
Exciting news...a new tank!
I have otos, I bought them before I knew about the method of catching them. I must admit I really like them, they're quite jolly little characters, but if you get any you need to choose fat ones. They will be the ones that have been eating ok. If they have not been eating they can sometimes be unable to start again, plus they do need a bit of algae growth in the tank really, although you can feed them with some veggie bits and algae wafers. They also need to be in groups of six or more.
Cories also should be shoals of six or more....and no tank should be without them IMHO ;) You should get the pandas last (if that's what you choose) as they do better in a more mature tank as well. Colin will guide you on barbs, I know nothing about them....'cept they're pretty, but orange...and I HATE anything orange! Avoid dwarf gouramis, they can have a virus problem and won't fit very well with your animal welfare ethos.
Another tip, if like me, you have a lousy memory, is to take your phone (if it is a smartphone) and google the fish you see whilst at the fish shop and any questions that come to mind. I have been very smitten with fish I have seen while out fish browsing, and may have been very naughty and bought some on impulse :-[, but I ignore what the shop workers say and google it myself there and then...some big mistakes avoided that way.
Anyway, happy choosing...it's part of the fun!
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Thanks resa. Good advice re phone. In fact I did stand in the queue at pets at home researching the water conditioner I was about to buy. Turned out to be ok, so by the time the woman had finished faffing around with different dog foods I was ready to buy!
I have read that corys need a mature tank, so will leave them til later, and considering the price of them at my lfs I will certainly stick to that!
I'm also quite keen on CPDs now. Assuming the very pale ones in maidenhead aquatics will brighten up with age and the right care (whatever that might be!)
Anyway it's tank cycling for me next! Once I've get the tank home and set it up. :)
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Ok so I found out what my mystery catfish were, and promptly forgot their name. But they aren't corys and would outgrow my tank (slowly, apparently, although what use that info is to me I don't know!)
Hopefully I can pick my tank up tomorrow (today)!!
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Well I got the tank today and am feeling a bit deflated! The heater has to go next to the pump, and in that position you can't see it to change the temp setting. Tried to move it and found the pump was stuck completely, no getting it out for any maintenance or if it doesn't work! The glass lid comes in two parts, and the back part doesn't fit on with the wires of pump and heater coming out the back. It turns out new upgraded aqua nano doesn't come with any filter media, it's available to buy at £8.99 a bag!
The one good thing about the last point is I can chose my own filter media I suppose.
Also there's a tiny slit at the bottom of the back of the tank, where you want to put the substrate. Anyone know what it's for? The instructions are somewhat minimalist! Can I pile my substrate up over it?
Sorry for the winge!
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I see what you mean about the instructions - just looked on Aqua One's website. They are as bad as the instructions for my betta's tank, an Aqua One aqua space.
Don't worry about the heater just yet. You'll probably find that the setting on the heater does not give the temp you want anyway (and especially at the moment with the weather being so warm, you won't know if it's the air temp or the heater getting the water to whatever temp a thermometer shows). Heaters are usually badly calibrated. You set the heater by setting the dial quite low (say 22) then turn it up a degree at a time, allowing the water to warm up between, till the thermometer reads the temp you want.
On the subject of thermometers, the kind that go inside the tank with the red liquid going up the scale are more accurate than lcd ones that stick on the outside. Or if you want high tech, an electric one.
Is there a separate manual for the filter pump? The tank instructions on-line say to refer to a separate manual. And my aqua space did have a second filter manual, in the box that contained the filter.
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It does have a separate manual, which is just as brief, and covers three models of pump. I know why it's stuck, I stuck the little pipe that takes water from inside the tank, into the pump, in too tight and now I can't get it out. Without taking it out, you can't get the pump out of the compartment at the back. Grr!
Thanks for reassurance about the heater. I've got myself one of those thermometers already, so that's fine! :)
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Ah-ha.... the old getting-the-pump-out-of-the-AquaNano40 problem. Exactly the same thing happened to me and I had to get a pair of kitchen scissors with the serrated top taker-offerer bit to get a grip on the outlet tube and twist and pull. Then only put it back gently.
The heater is a bit of a pain, but mine was puttable down low in the chamber so I could see the scale. Putting it low also stopped the resonating rattle that the heater element made about a minute after it switched off.
D'you mean the slits at the back down low on the side where the filter sponge is? I've blocked mine off.
The glass tops.... I've put the big one so it covers the back of the tank with the triangular cut-out positioned at the back left so that the heater and pump wires can exit through it. Then the smaller glass panel goes on the front and is easy to lift off for feeding. Two plastic clips for the back panel, and four for the front. (...well, three 'cos I broke one!)
Hope this helps.
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As it happens Colin I did briefly think of doing this, can't think why I went off the idea, it really works. Only thing is the sharp corners, and no obvious handle for opening the front. Maybe the local glazers!?
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I just pick it up using the clips, but I suppose you could get a piece of glass cut. The corners don't really worry me, but mine aren't too sharp. It may vary from tank to tank.
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Ok, this ones for you Colin, I've trawled through this thread and can't seem to find the answer, although I have a feeling it's there somewhere!
The aqua nano 40 comes with two filter cartridges, one of ceramic media (very small, must buy more!) and one of carbon and wool. Do I need to remove the carbon /wool one? And throw it away? Or replace once tank is cycled?
Thanks in advance!
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That's an 'upgrade' on mine. Mine just came with a big black sponge to go in the first chamber, and two bags of noodles to go in the second chamber. I'm not a great fan of carbon in a filter and I would put it to one side for using if you ever need to medicate your tank, and then remove the medication using the carbon.
Sponge for mechanical filtration (course, medium, fine) followed by noodles of some sort for biological filtration is all you need - especially when cycling.
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Great, thanks, thought so. Glad it has some use though, I'll keep it.
Yes the tank comes with those two small cartridges but no noodles!
Going to buy something today, if I get time after I've picked up the test kit and ammonia which are at the Royal Mail depot, as came when I was out.
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I'm going to move my test results and questions to this thread, from 'Substrate' in 'planted tanks'
Tank is on day 5 of fish less, very lightly planted cycle with mature media bought from MA.
So to recap I gave 2nd dose of ammonia two days ago, after which point my readings were:
Ammonia 2ppm
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 40
Yesterday there was not much to report:
Ammonia 2ppm
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 40
This mornings results I've interpreted as follows:
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 2
Nitrate 80
Although the nitrite result could even be 5ppm or more!
Do I need to do a water change then add more ammonia?
That's what I'm thinking currently, but if so what percentage change?
Many thanks for any advice, I don't want to stall the cycle it's going so well! (I think!)
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First I'd do a dilution test to check the nitrite reading. The result will only be approximate as you need very sensitive measuring equipment and distilled water to get an accurate result, but an approximate one will be good enough for these purposes.
Use one fifth tank water topped up with four fifths tap water and test. If the result is a lot less than before, it was an accurate reading so you don't need to do a water change (15ppm is the danger level but the testers don't go that high). If it is the same, or right at the top of the colour chart, then your reading of 2 was off the top and yes, do a water change.
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Thanks Sue, dilution test done, came out as < 0.25 so am happy with that.
Looking forward to testing again tomorrow! Looks like its doing something!
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So we are going away on Wednesday, back Sunday.
I've noticed the tank water has a green tinge to it, so thought I'd cover it up while we are away to block out the light and discourage the algae. Will this be ok for the plants, bearing in mind they are freebies and I'm buying more at some point? Or should I just do it straight away, not wait til Wednesday? I've already unplugged the light so my husband can't switch it on then fall asleep on the sofa til 3am, like he did last night! (Yes I know, I need to buy a timer so this doesn't happen and I'm in control of the light!)
Also with regards to cycling, i don't suppose it'll matter me being away for a bit? I mean shall I play it by ear and see what the parameters are like on Wednesday morning and act accordingly? Or is there something specific to do if you are away?
Thanks.
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This mornings results:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 1
Nitrate 40
I have to say I have trouble matching the colours at the higher end of the scales for both nitrate and nitrite. So I did a 50:50 dilution on the nitrite and it came out as 0.5
Not highly scientific but better than my " it's anything from 1-5"
Nitrate may not have actually gone down from yesterday.
So nitrite has reduced, ammonia is zero. I need to top up. Same amount as before??
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Oh, and pH 7.6
I'm testing pH on low range kit only, just to check there's no pH crash, rather than to get an exact figure atm.
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The ammonia eating bacteria won't starve while you're away, and the 1ppm of Nitrite will give something for the nitrite munching bugglies to get their teeth into, so I'd be tempted to leave it as it is. Adding more ammonia will increase the nitrite, and until that part of the cycle gets going you don't want too much of the nitrite hanging around.
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Thanks Colin.
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Results this morning,
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 2 (maybe 1)
Nitrate 40
Going away and leaving it for four nights now. Fingers crossed it's all still working when I get back. Actually really hoping the tank doesn't evaporate so much that the pump stops working, there doesn't seem to be much of an allowance for evaporation, either the tank is nearly full to the brim, or too low for the pump to work (quietly!)
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That's strange 'cos my Cube40 pump runs quietly with the water level 35mm below the brim in the main tank and 43mm below the brim in the pump compartment. :-\
Have a good break. Going anywhere exotic?
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Ooh yes Poynton, and Bakwell!
Poynton to see my parents, drop off the kids and then to Bakewell for a wedding.
Hm, maybe all's not right with the pump that's stuck (hopefully not permanently) to the outlet pipe.
It gets to a stage where the pump sucks in air and spits it out with a fairly loud cough! I only know it's a water level thing cos when I put in half a litre it stops.
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Good news and bad,
On return from our stay up north, the pump was making a terrible chugging noise, which was corrected by topping up the water, almost to overflowing. It still coughs now and again though.
Test results this afternoon were two big fat zeroes for ammonia and nitrite. So I've topped up to 1 ppm ammonia for now. (more by luck than judgement, but have decided to leave it there until tomorrow)
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Colin, and anyone else with an aqua nano 40...
Would you say the water flow was quite strong in the tank?
Or medium?
I'm looking at ideas for Fish and in my mums lfs my husband pointed out two little fish just chilling on the leaf of an Anubias (I think)
I can't 100% remember what they were! would killifish be likely?
Anyway their profile says they need little or no water flow. So prob out.
I thought they might do, as they literally sat and did nothing, so I thought, great for a small tank!
The Lfs in question doesn't gave a great reputation on the internet, so maybe that's not how they are supposed to be?
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I've got the pump set to minimum and I still think it's a bit strong. I'm goint to put a little wadge <sp?> of filter foam in the outlet pipe to try and slow it down a bit.
I'm still puzzled by the behaviour of your pump compared to mine. Mine's all but silent with 1" of space above the water. It's an AquaOne 102 model..... I don't know if it's been changed in later releases of the tank.
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Hm, thought I'd replied to this,
Update:
I did a big water change today, put in some filter floss, stuck the filter media in a bag, cut off a bit of sponge and stuck it in the pump outlet. Then refilled. Now pump is behaving itself again!
Added ammonia to 2 ppm.
We have visitors this week so it's a bit more difficult to get things done.
Found a baby ramshorn snail today, on my sideboard. Popped it back in the tank. It sure gets about! Will it survive in a tropical tank, they are coldwater species aren't they? Mum has some in her pond at hers.
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Found a baby ramshorn snail today, on my sideboard. Popped it back in the tank. It sure gets about! Will it survive in a tropical tank, they are coldwater species aren't they? Mum has some in her pond at hers.
Well, unless this one followed you home from your last visit to your mother's, I would say it probably came from your tank. ;D And yes, they will prosper in a tropical tank... unless you are lucky ;D
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It may have followed me home Colin, I took some elodea from her pond!
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Just found the elodea I got from mum's pond in a temporary tank in the garden, so the snails weren't from there.
Unless they came in through the back door. (Like the slugs sometimes do)
Big water change the other day may have put back my cycle somewhat! Ammonia munchers seem ok, but nitrites are up to five plus. Will do a dilution test later to see how high.
Got some zebra snails yesterday, three for eight pounds!! Cheaper than pets at home which were two for nine pounds, but as one of them turned out to be dead, not much!
They are quite pretty though. But eight pounds for snails! I keep seeing big juicy ones in the garden and wanting to throw them in the tank!
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Just in case - you aren't going to put the snails in the cycling tank are you? That amount of nitrite is not good for snails......
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Oh, ok, thanks Sue, I was but I have somewhere else for them while it cycles.
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Results today
Ammonia 0
Nitrite ~ 8
Can't believe they were zero after my holiday and I messed them up by doing a water change! Well it's all a learning process!
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I know the dilution test is only very rough but keep an eye on the nitrite level. If it appears to be over 15ppm, do a water change. That's the level that stalls the cycle.
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Ok. Thanks Sue.
Good news this morning the nitrites are on the move, 0.5 this am. So have added more ammonia.
Taking one of the snails back to MA. It was quite clearly dead when I bought it, not moved in the 24 hours after putting it in the tank. Now it's got to the stage where it's come out of its shell, completely.
Feel a bit silly for buying them from there in the first place, it's cos they were cheaper than pets at home.
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Congrats on the nitrite :cheers: Not long to go now.
MA is usually better than P@H, though as they are both franchises it does depend on the branch manager.
Snails do come out of the shell when dead and they stink. If a snail stops moving, taking it out of the tank and sniffing it is the way to check if it's dead or not. But only a tiny sniff. That smell is horrible and lingers in the nose for hours.
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Lol!
They were very nice in the shop and replaced snail with live one without question.
So now I've been browsing!!
New thoughts, re fish:
Green neon rasbora?? With ember tetra, so say nine of each.?? And some cories.
Need to look into temperature and other requirements of the rasbora.
Also saw black harlequin rasbora. Quite big though, much bigger than the harlequin rasbora also for sale. Prob too big for my tank?
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Oh dear, I already feel the need for a bigger tank coming on!
It turns out that not only are black harlequin rasbora rather beautiful, they are also from Selangor in Malaysia, where I did my masters research project for three months.
But they are too big for my tank!!
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Oh dear, I already feel the need for a bigger tank coming on!
It turns out that not only are black harlequin rasbora rather beautiful, they are also from Selangor in Malaysia, where I did my masters research project for three months.
But they are too big for my current tank!!
There, fixed it for you! ;)
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Do you mean neon green rasboras (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-kubotai/)? I have some of those. They don't look much in the shop tanks but are much nicer when settled in your tank. They aren't bright green in the way that ember tetra are bright red, but they are definitely green particularly when the light catches them.
And I also have ember tetras. They are similar sized fish and I do like the way the orange-red and green go together. They also have the same water requirements.
When it comes to the community creator you won't be able to add the rasboras as they aren't in the database. Just pretend they are ember tetras or galaxy rasboras.
However, I have also seen some fish labelled as neon green rasboras that were not Microdevarios as they had black in their dorsal fins. I haven't worked out what they were.
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Thanks Colin, that was surprisingly painless!
Thanks Sue, yes those are the ones. They are already beautiful, even in the shop. (Unlike the CPDs which are pretty dull) Will need to make sure my pH is suitable.
After initial disappointment that I can't have several different shapes and sizes I'm really warming to the idea of 'small tank, small fish' as I think the whole thing will look better that way.
So for my next project "Telok Penyamon" a variety of South East Asian species.
Telok Penyamon means valley of theives (I think!!) and was the name of one of the villages we stayed in in Selangor.
So it will have to be valley shaped. And big!
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Have been messing about with the tank again.
Or I should say, trying to sort out the pump issues. Decided it was quieter on its side, so took out the heater and relocated to the compartment containing the filter media, so had to relocate them to the compartment with sponge, so had to chop a chunk off the sponge for both to fit.
So far so good.
Then realised the tank was getting fuller and fuller.
Nearly but not quite overflowing. The pump was pushing out water quicker than it was being replaced... Much quicker.
So I thought it was the filter floss I put straight behind the inlet, getting too clogged to let water through. Changed that.
Still happening.
Finally realised that the filter cartridge supplied with the tank was clogged and not letting water through that. Lifted it slightly off the bottom so now water is getting under it. But not through it. So one filter type is effectively out of action.
So that's the double whammy of smaller sponge and less filter media. I still have the stuff I got from MA ready seeded.
During all this the small piece of sponge I wedged into the outlet to prevent fish entering, has been spat out.
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Just noticed a minor explosion of invertebrates in the tank this evening. Not done anything with the tank today except test the water. Yesterday I made a few changes, as detailed above. I also vacuumed the substrate.
I've suddenly got loads of snails (tiny babies, but not ramshorns) on the walls of the tank, and on the black glass at the back I've got some tiny white worms. About half cm long and thread thin. Any ideas what they are? Are they bad news? What could have caused them to suddenly appear? I have no livestock in the tank, just plants.
I'm not sure if they are swimming in the water column too as they are easy to see on the black surface.
Ammonia is clearing nicely, getting to zero in 24 hours after increasing to 2ppm, nitrites are taking longer, nitrates are high 160 I think.
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I think we are getting somewhere with this tank... Ammonia and nitrites 0, 24 hours after dosing to 1ppm.
Now dosed to 2ppm, retesting tomorrow afternoon.
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Sounds good to me. As the ammonia ends up as nitrates, what are your nitrates doing? They should be going up as the nitrites go down. You could always do a comparison between the nitrates in the water you put in the tank compared to what you take out. It's always good to do that now and again anyway as a matter of course, especially as you build up your community of fish.
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Really high, Colin.
Last time I measured, yesterday I think they were ~160 which is as high as my test will measure.
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If you find the cycle stalls, do a water change to get rid of some nitrate. When the cycle finishes, make sure you do a really big water change before getting fish to get the nitrate level right down.
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Ok will do. Thanks Sue.
Ammonia was 0 this afternoon, 24hrs after topping up to 2ppm.
Nitrite was five.
Am I waiting for double zero before topping up again? Or keeping it topped up until nitrite gone in 24hrs?
Thanks.
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Wait for 48 hours after adding ammonia and test again. If the nitrite reading is still high, wait another day. If it is still 5 or more, do a big water change and add another 2ppm ammonia as the nitrite eaters could be inhibited by the nitrate level.
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Thanks Sue, but I have a confession, soon after writing I tested again, and nitrite was zero!
So have added more ammonia.
Can I ask about the nitrates? I'm going to re read the new cycling method so it'll probably answer me, don't worry if you know it does.
But is it usual to have to change the water because of high nitrates? Is this one of the reasons for cycles stalling, as well as overly high nitrites? Will I need to do a dilution test to see how high it is?
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Ok, so now I've read it again I realise I've not been following the method properly at all!
But I guess I'll get there, I think it's nearly finished anyway!
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The old method of fishless cycling, which used 5ppm doses of ammonia every time that dropped to zero, resulted in very high nitrite in the middle of the cycle and nitrate at the end of the cycle. This was the main reason the chap who devised the new method lowered the amount of ammonia added. This stops the nitrite level ever getting high enough to inhibit the nitrite eating bacteria and stops nitrate getting extremely high towards the end. With the new method, you still get high nitrate, but not nearly so high as with the old method. But I don't know high high nitrate has to be before it affects the cycle's progress.
The problem with a dilution test is that the nitrate tester is only ball park at best and diluting it will introduce further inaccuracy.
The main thing to aim for is double zeros 24 hours after adding a 3ppm dose of ammonia; and a big (100% if possible) water change just before you get fish if the nitrate is very high.
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Thanks Sue, I don't think the nitrates will be excessively high, as I did a water change earlier in the month, and have only been adding ammonia to 2ppm so far. I won't bother with the dilution test. (Also I do have a few plants)
Ammonia is now disappearing after less than twelve hours, but nitrite is taking more than 24.
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Keep adding a small dose of ammonia until nitrite drops to zero in 24 hours, then add a larger dose. 3ppm is chosen as being more than enough for a tank full of fish. If you want to continue with 2ppm doses, only stock about three quarters full initially and add more slowly later.
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Ok, I might do that then, as I think both Cory and neon rasboras need a mature tank. Shame to generate enough bacteria to service a fully stocked tank, then starve them!
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Add once ammonia reaches zero, or wait til nitrite is there too?
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You said that nitrite drops to zero but in more than 24 hours. When you get ammonia = zero and nitrite = something under 1ppm in 24 hours, add 2ppm ammonia. Test again in 24 hours.
If both are now zero, the cycle has finished.
If ammonia is zero but nitrite isn't it depends on how high nitrite is. Above 1ppm, do nothing. If it's less than 1, add another 2ppm ammonia. In both cases test again 24 hours later.
This should be repeated, testing every 24 hours and adding ammonia when nitrite is below 1ppm, until you get double zeros in 24 hours after adding ammonia.
If you can't get to the shop for a few days, add 1ppm every other day then do a big water change before you go shopping, either just before or the evening before.
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Thanks Sue.
So...This morning I topped up to 2ppm again, as ammonia was zero and nitrite 0.5, 24 hrs after last dose.
So fingers crossed for double zero tomorrow!
If so I must do a big water change, and then I can get fish?
Am going back to maidenhead aquatics where I saw ember tetra, CPDs, cherry barbs, five band barbs, and neon rasbora (although they want a mature tank) so I'll be spoilt for choice. Not 100% made my mind up which to get yet!
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Since you have 0.5 nitrite today, if you have zero tomorrow, add another 2ppm ammonia and if it's zero the next day, then do the water change and get fish. Nitrite must drop to zero within 24 hours of adding a dose of ammonia.
That's the problem with choosing fish. So many species, so little space ;D
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It was yesterday I had the 0.5 and today I have double zeroes. But going to have to leave getting the fish til tomorrow as the water change took up all my free time and now I have the kids!
Put in a tiny bit of ammonia to keep things going, is that right? Don't tell me I will need to do another water change tomorrow?! As that will be another day gone!
By 'a tiny bit' I mean 0.4 ml, roughly equivalent to 0.5ppm.
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That's fine, just to keep the bacteria ticking over. And that amount won't add much to the nitrate level. 0.5ppm ammonia ends up as just under 2ppm nitrate.
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Got some fish!
Six ember tetra and six CPDs. Have been advised they are all male CPD so to try to get some females at some point.
Going to get more ember Tetra too when funds slow. Just realised it's nearly a year since we moved back to the UK so two cars to tax, mot and insure!
Oh and he gave me a handful of 'pets snails'
MTS in other words.
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Here they all are!
Swimming happily in my fireplace.
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Excellent news!
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Good choices! I have some CPD myself and think they're great - very characterful little fish. I've also been seriously considering getting some Ember Tetra after seeing some at a lfs recently.
Have been advised they are all male CPD so to try to get some females at some point.
You should be able to sex the CPD's once they've settled in a bit - generally the males have deeper colours on the body and fins but this obviously isn't likely to help if they are all the same! The best way is to look at the anal fin - if it's almost solid coloured red/orange then it'll be male, if it's almost transparent (probably just a bit of colour near the body) then it'll be a female.
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Great, thanks for that. Will have a look later when the kids are in bed and it's all calm. Some of the CPDs are better coloured than others so I'm not convinced they are all male.
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I was a bit worried for a while that the shop had only given me 5 CPD or one had gone missing. All six ember tetra had formed a shoal with five CPD.
But I've just counted for the twentieth time and I have six, turns out there's a shy one amongst them!
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They will be a bit faded after transport from the shop due to the stress but should deepen in colour once they start to get used to their new surroundings - some could just be more faded than others at this early stage. :)
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I think I may have more females than males. There are two I'm confident are male, two fairly certain are female and the other two look more like females to me, but not 100%.
They aren't all swimming close together anymore, but swimming all over the bottom half of the tank.
Btw do female Cpds chase males?
Photo taken just before lights out...
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This is better.
Really need to find the charger for my DSLR.
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I'd give em a few days to get their colour back - it might not be easy to tell this early on. I do find that the cpd's don't shoal really - they spend a bit of time together but generally like to do their own thing :)
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thats a really nice looking tank very natural look :)
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Good lookin' tank. I see you're still posting sideways piccies... :rotfl:
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Good lookin' tank. I see you're still posting sideways piccies... :rotfl:
I thought it was an improvement on upside down Colin!
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Thanks both, I'm very proud of it. Although I keep having to fight temptation to put more stuff in it!
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OK, despite spending part of last night and this morning so far trying to figure out what CPDs are, can someone please enlighten me now that I've confessed to my total ignorance?
Puffin, love the decor (she wrote, looking sadly at her few unrealistic and a bit pathetic plastic plants - going to get some live ones this weekend though). Would you mind telling me what the stones/rocks are and where you get them? I'd thought about adding a few to my aqua nano, but wasn't sure which we're safe. :)
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Celestial Pearl Danios.... AKA Galaxy Rasbora (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/galaxy-rasbora.html).
(http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/tropical-fish-images/galaxy-rasbora-01.jpg)
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Thanks Col, they're very pretty. Would they get on with a pair of honey gouramiis, do your think?
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OK, despite spending part of last night and this morning so far trying to figure out what CPDs are, can someone please enlighten me now that I've confessed to my total ignorance?
CPD stands for continuing professional development.
Or celestial pearl danno as Colin has said.
Sorry Diz, I thought I'd written the while name out the first time I mentioned them, but I see I haven't! Too excited.
You can see why I don't want to write the whole name out every time.
Thanks for your compliments on the tank.
I'm probably going to get told off for this, but the stones are ones I found in nature! I put them in a tank of water for a few weeks to see what effect they had on water hardness though (none).
There were some absolutely lovely pink rocks that I now know are called pink alabaster and are soluble in water lol so I couldn't put those in.
The twigs are heather, found on a hillside, already all dried up. I looked into it and heather are apparently fine. I tied some Java moss to them.
There's a plastic plant pot in there too.
Other than that the substrate is soil under (and to a lesser extent on top of) aquarium sand.
I think I need some floating plants as the next species of fish I want to get, likes them. The plants I have are really easy, sometimes they float up to the top and I just stick them back in the sand. All except the cryptocoryne which is new so I've no experience of that yet.
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I have ember tetras and neon green rasboras with honey gouramis. Those two are similar sized fish with similar water requirements to cpds so they should also be OK with honeys.
Cpds have had various names since their discovery. They were rushed into the trade before taxonomists had chance to decide what they were and name them, so not only have they had several common names, they've had several latin names too. The fish profiles on here have not kept up! The latin name on there is the very first one and they've been though another couple since then. You'll also find them listed in places as firework rasboras.
Their official names are now celestial pearl danios and Danio margaritatus.
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Thanks Puffin and Sue.
Puffin, heather should be very easy for me to get, I live in Scotland! So plenty of it around. Will maybe try your idea of testing some stones to see if they're suitable.
Sue, thanks for the tip re: honey gourami tank mates. Will see if I can find some this weekend. :cheers:
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I have ember tetras and neon green rasboras with honey gouramis. Those two are similar sized fish with similar water requirements to cpds so they should also be OK with honeys. - See more at: http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,930.120/topicseen.html#sthash.FsCCks3D.dpuf
Ah so they are danios then?
I thought they were Microrasbora kubotai or something. That was from seriously fish, so they are behind too.
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They are really beautiful fish when looked at close to. But very small, and not much to look at from a distance. Also they colour up better in a more suitable environment than a fish shop... I hope.
So they are easily missed. I couldn't find them in the shop when I was looking yesterday and I'd walked past them and looked in their tank several times.
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I have ember tetras and neon green rasboras with honey gouramis. Those two are similar sized fish with similar water requirements to cpds so they should also be OK with honeys. - See more at: http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,930.120/topicseen.html#sthash.FsCCks3D.dpuf
Ah so they are danios then?
I thought they were Microrasbora kubotai or something. That was from seriously fish, so they are behind too.
Sorry, you have me confused ???
Galaxy rasboras, now known as celestial pearl danios (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/danio-margaritatus/), are danios. Latin name Danio margaritatus.
Green neon rasboras, Microdevario kubotai (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-kubotai/), are not danios.
But both fish were at one time classed as microrasboras.
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Lol. Sorry Sue it's my memory that's the problem. Getting the two mixed up.
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Thanks Col, they're very pretty. Would they get on with a pair of honey gouramiis, do your think?
My CPD's live happily with a Dwarf Gourami so I'd imagine they should be fine with Honey's.
I'm probably going to get told off for this, but the stones are ones I found in nature! I put them in a tank of water for a few weeks to see what effect they had on water hardness though (none).
As long as you check their effect on water beforehand (which you did) then using natural stones is fine. You just need to do the usual checking that they aren't likely to have been contaminated by anything harmful to fish, such as pesticides.
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I've been trying to get some decent photos, then make them small enough to go on this site!
Here goes...
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The little fella on the right in the first picture is a real beauty but he won't pose for the camera!
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Nice fish :D I love the colour of ember tetras, they really stand out in a tank despite their size.
And they'll enjoy all those plants :D
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That looks really good.
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Thanks both. The plants just keep growing! So much for specialised substrate and co2!
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Thanks both. The plants just keep growing! So much for specialised substrate and co2!
Your plants look like they're doing really well - in fact they're probably part of the reason why you've been having difficulty photographing your fish as the plants seem to be 'pulling' the focus of your camera! Although CPD's are a nightmare to snap regardless owing to them darting around the place so much (I've tried!).
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Going to try again with the fish photos, just cos I cropped some of the full tank photos I took, and think they look better now.
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Puffin, your tank looks great! I finally have my tank stocked too - I couldn't resist getting a few little corys (4) and now have 2 platies (new today!), 3 guppies and 4 white cloud mountain minnows so I think I'm pretty much full for now. Everyone seems to be getting along fine and the minnows have even had babies :yikes: (a few of the fry got into the filter chamber and have survived - so far. Goodness knows what I'm going to do with them now...).
As predicted by Sue I have developed MTS (multiple tank syndrome) and now thinking about a much bigger tank for home! Have you succumbed yet??
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Not great photos as it's very bright outside, but I've been looking through here and my tank has changed a bit!
I basically now have more of the same fish, although I only ever see 5 CPD and technically I should have 7. All ten ember tetra, present and correct. Now have two zebra snails, and the plants were looking a bit thin, so I've bought some more today.
So I have some long pond weed looking plant, is it vallis? Other than that I just bought more bacopa and fanwort.
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Hmm, I really need to take photos at night.
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It looks really good. Nice one!