Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: Deleted User on November 15, 2017, 03:51:17 PM
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Can someone advise on what other fish they have successfully kept with juvenile Angels
in the past, thanks.
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Have you used the Community Creator? If you add angels to a tank, it'll make suggestions for other suitable fish. I think for Angels it suggests harlequin rasboras. Or some of the larger tetras (not bite sized).
I looked at adding angels to my community tank and was surprised that suggested companions were on my list. I also had warnings though, for others in my tank, so I can't remember which was which!
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Sorry, I've just checked and I was wrong. It is fiveband barbs and cardinal tetras that are suggested. I'm considering the former and have had the latter with my harlequin rasboras. I knew it was something that I had. 8)
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The main fish to avoid with angels are small pencil shaped fish as they are easily eaten, certainly once the angels grow up. Neon tetras are the natural prey of angels, and any neon sized and shaped fish will possibly be eaten. Harlequins have deeper bodies so should be OK. If fish from south America are wanted, any of the non-nippy, deep bodied tetras should work - but they need to be non-nippy species because of the angelfish's fins.
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I've had a moderator moment and adjusted the title of this topic to make it easier to search for later down the line...
C:-)
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Hi Helen,
yes I did use the compatibility thing and will try the big barb idea, :)
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Mark,
I hope your moderator moment wasn't too painful :rotfl:
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Thanks all,
I tried the Community Creator and it said Five Band Barbs and Cardinal Tetras as Helen said
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Sue mentioned Harlequins,but I don't know what the "non-nippy" deep bodied Tetras are called ?
Names please :)
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Most deep bodied tetras would be OK, the exceptions being serpaes (one of the nippiest tetras) and black widows (black skirts). Most others are OK if kept in large enough shoals.
Tetras usually have a hierarchy within a shoal and they set and maintain this hierarchy by nipping. If there aren't enough of them, they include the rest of the fish in the tank as part of the shoal, but in larger numbers they keep the nipping to their own species. When there are no fish with big fins the minimum number for shoal size is OK but big fins bring out the nipping tendency so more than 6 is safer with big finned fish.
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I don't know what the "non-nippy" deep bodied Tetras are called ?
...and the deep-bodied tetras include the ones that look like that in the relevant section of this page http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-profiles eg phantom, widow/skirt, diamond, emperor, bleeding heart, Columbian, silver dollar, head- and tail-light, lemon, red-eye and rosy.
Hope that helps. :fishy1:
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Yes fcmf,
that does help, thanks for taking the time :D
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OK that's it !!
conflicting advice from the fish keeping fraternity ;)
Will someone be brave enough to name one fish that I will buy 10 of that wont bite my Angels fins?
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My only advice is not to get penguin tetras, as mine even nipped the bristlenose plec I had in that tank, even though they were in a shoal of 10, along with 10 glass bloodfin tetras and hatchets.
I have moved the fish around and the glass bloodfins are in a tank with 10 lemon tetras and one of the plecs.
Both the bloodfins and lemon tetras are quite chilled though.
Diamond tetras are very pretty.
Sometimes it's impossible to say that a shoal of fish wont nip as sometimes it's down to the individual fish in the shoal rather than the species itself.
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Sometimes it's impossible to say that a shoal of fish wont nip as sometimes it's down to the individual fish in the shoal rather than the species itself.
Couldn't agree more with this comment!
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OK that's it !!
conflicting advice from the fish keeping fraternity ;)
Will someone be brave enough to name one fish that I will buy 10 of that wont bite my Angels fins?
Harlequins, or one of their lookalikes - Espe's rasboras and Hengel's rasboras. The only thing I can think of that might put you off (if you consider such things to be important) is that they are from a different continent from angels.
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...and to illustrate the point Littlefish made, and my emphatic agreement, it was actually a harlequin rasbora I was referring to - I have one who terrorises and chases all ten other fish in the tank relentlessly every afternoon without fail.
::)
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How about my old friend Mr Platy?? O:-)
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Is your water hardness between 10 and 15 DH?
Angelfish are quite slow moving whilst platys are very active. Does any one think they would stress the angels as a result?
Other than this, I don't see why it couldn't work...
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@Madtony, I realised that my comment about my rogue harlequin might have put you off them altogether which I absolutely wouldn't want - they are lovely fish and I can't envisage them actually fin-nipping. Just to clarify that there are no guarantees with any species of fish, as there could always be a rogue (temporarily or long-term). Sometimes it's possible to read too much or not consider the information that individuals report on their own experiences in the wider context such as the fish profiles, so don't let every negative comment you read make you strike a particular species off the list.
:D
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I have espe's rasboras (Trigonostigma espei), one of the species closely related to harlequins, and they are anything but aggressive and nippy. I think I have 14 of them but they are very tricky to count in tank with lots of plants and wood. (I bought 18 but three died within the first couple of weeks. I asked for and paid for 15 but there were 18 in the bag :) )
However, I partially retract my statement about keeping them with angels - with any fish in fact - because Trigonostigmas of any of the three species like cover. Seeing mine first in a tank with no floating plants and now in a tank with almost the whole surface covered in plants I can definitely say that they don't like being exposed when the tank light is on. When I first got them I didn't have any floating plants and they hid in a corner. Then I bought some water sprite and they hid under that. As the water sprite has grown, they venture further into the tank but only as far as the edge of the plants.
So my partial retraction is to say - harlequins or one of their lookalikes provided you have some plants (real or synthetic) floating on the water surface.
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Todays test with my API kit.
pH- 6.4
High Range pH- 7.4
Ammonia- 0ppm
Nitrate- 0ppm
Nitrite- 0ppm
Any observations would be appreciated.
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Ammonia zero - good, that's what it should be
Nitrite zero - good, that's what it should be.
Nitrate zero - unusual to have zero nitrate if there are fish in the tank unless it is also very low in tap water and there are lots of live plants. (Just because I have to ask - did you shake bottle #2 like the instruction say?)
High range pH - showing the lowest colour on tester because the pH is off the bottom of the scale and the tester can't read any lower
pH 6.4 - good for angels and other soft water fish.
If you also have soft water, that usually but not always goes hand in hand with low KH. Low KH means all the carbonate buffering gets used up quickly leaving nothing to stabilise pH. The natural tendency of a tank is to become acidic. If regular tank maintenance is not carried out, there is a risk of a pH crash. I know, this happened to me when I got lazy about water changes. Since then I do them every week without fail and it hasn't happened again. Regular large water changes replenish the KH.
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Hi Sue,
sounds ok then ;)
I actually carry out a water check every week and a tank clean with
a syphon changing 27% of the water.
Is this too much do you think? :-\
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Weekly water changes are good. The amount changed depends on how many fish there are. If the tank is fully stocked, the amount to change is 50%. With less fish than fully stocked, the % can be less.
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Weekly water changes are good. The amount changed depends on how many fish there are. If the tank is fully stocked, the amount to change is 50%. With less fish than fully stocked, the % can be less.
That's fine, until I'm happy with what to put in with them it's six juvenile Angels in a 180
litre aquarium !! :yikes:
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Kept properly (i.e. in a group for shoaling species, and in correct water parameters) most Barbs, Tetras and Rasboras are not nippy. There really is a huge selection of species that will live with Angels. Most of the species commonly seen in shops are ok. But Angels are typical cichlids and need personal space. Most problems are due to small tanks where everyone is on top of each other. When Angels decide to pair up they become territorial, like all cichlids, so the other fish need to be able to escape.
Livebearers of any species will not do well in soft water, and even in hard water they will be set upon whenever the Angels realise they're dropping fry...
Angels also need a tall tank, at least 18" of water depth imo. Captive bred Angels don't grow as big as they used to, but can still exceed 6" in height.
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Agreed, Platys are not suited to your water parameters.
I've not had any problem with harlequins, and have simply found them to be a very sturdy fish.
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I've had Harlequins for a while. I've also had Cardinal tetras. And my favourite fish are my kuhli loaches. All 3 lived happily together for years. I think kuhlis can be picked on by nippy fish and consequently hide a lot.
I currently have a mix of Harlequins and espeii with my kuhlis and the kuhlis don't hide. They prefer to stay out of direct light, but I have a lot of crypts and that provides cover for the kuhlis, but not from the rasboras.
I would vouch for rasboras being fantastic fish. As I restock my tank after a period of neglect, the harlies are one of the species that I'm keeping and increasing the numbers of again.
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I've had dozens of small fish over the years and they bore me after a while, that's one reason why I've started with the Angels, but I need a compatible fish that will grow to about 5 to 10 cm in the 180 litre tank.
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I've no idea if they are compatible temperament wise, but dwarf rainbow fish like the same water conditions (and about the size you suggested)
Is your tank planted?
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It sounds like you're after a species with a bit of character, something with a more interesting behaviour perhaps than schooling fish.
So... how about zebra/chain loach which will spend a bit more time resting on the surfaces and decoration in the tank as well as swimming mid water. They would need to be fed a sinking food. I'm afraid ive no personal experience with these fish, but someone else may be able to advise further.
Another option would be dwarf cichlids; Agassiz's/Cockatoo/Bolivian Ram/Kribensis, these fish are a bit more intelligent than most, forming breeding pairs, territories etc. and interact with each other more. Their swimming style is different to tetra too, they tend to swim to something, hover near it to take a look, swim to something else etc.
Gourami are also another option though the best option probably is Dwarf Gourami, be warned many of these fish are imported with a virus which is not curable and often means they only survive a few months... they are characteristic fish however with their feelers used to investigate objects. They interact more with each other than tetra or rasbora. Their swimming style is slower and they interact with, swim through decor more than most.
Hope that helps.
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If your still after tetras, i keep 3 large angles with 5 blvk neons, 15 silver tip tetras and 10 buenos aries tetras
Hope this helps :D
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Thanks for all your advice everyone,
seems like basically I can choose a fish from those suggested, buy about ten and see what happens.
I'll let you know.
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The problem is that shoaling fish that grow to 10 cm will need a long tank. Unless your 180 litre is a long, shallow tank - which would be unsuitable for angels as they need a tall tank - you need a species of tankmate that can live happily in a tank that is somewhere around 100 cm long. My custom built 180 litre tank is 107 cm long, and most off the peg 180 litre tanks are around 100cm or less.
This is why we've been suggesting smaller fish.
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OK, I've got it Sue,
1. My tall tank ideal for Angels.
2. Ten Tetra's as suggested.
How does that sound?
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That sounds perfect - as long as you check the species of shoaling fish with Seriously Fish http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/ before buying them to make sure they would be happy in a tank the length of the one you have.
I just got worried when you posted fish that will grow to about 5 to 10 cm
as a lot of fish at the 10 cm end of that range need tanks at least 120 cm long.
Angels don't need long tanks as they glide around rather than swim. But tetras are swimmers, and the bigger the fish the longer the tank they need to swim in. Like the difference in the athletics arena between shot putters (who stand almost in one spot) and sprinters :)
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Who are seriouslyfish?
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I think the Seriously Fish site is run by scientists who study the animals? @Sue is that correct?
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Yes, Seriously Fish is a site owned and run by people who study fish. This is the best site available for looking up fish profiles.
There is another good site, FishBase, but that just gives details about the fish such as size and water requirements; it doesn't include things like tank size, compatible tank mates, diet etc that Seriously Fish has.
There are hundreds of other sites about tropical fish but you need to be careful about which ones you believe. Anyone can set up a website without knowing the first thing about fish, or worse, giving out incorrect information.
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Thanks again Sue,
I really fancy some Red Eye Tetra's, what do you think?
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Having just looked at google images, the red eyes look perfect, like my silver tip tetras
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Red eye tetras
From Seriously Fish http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/moenkhausia-sanctaefilomenae/ with my red highlighting
A decent, albeit robust choice for the ‘general’ community tank, where it will add plenty of movement. Sedate species such as anabantoids or dwarf cichlids can be intimidated by its somewhat boisterous nature, so it’s best kept with active tankmates. Other similarly sized tetras, rainbowfish, larger rasboras, barbs and most danionins make excellent choices. Bottom dwellers such as Corydoras catfish, Doradids, small Loricariids and botiine loaches are also good companions. It can also be used as a dither for non-aggressive, medium-sized cichlids.
I would worry that sedate species like angels would not get on with them.
Although it has a reputation as a bit of a fin nipper, this behaviour can usually be rectified by keeping it in a small shoal of at least 6-8 specimens. When maintained in these kind of numbers any squabbling is generally contained within the group. As with virtually all tetras, it fares better in the presence of conspecifics anyway, and tends to be a little skittish if kept in insufficient numbers.
I would be concerned about keeping a sedate species like angelfish with them. Note the reference to being a bit on the nippy side.
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Seriously Sue,
is there anything bigger then a Neon!! I can put in with Angels that
wont nip them, of should I just give up? ::)
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Have you tried using this page??
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-profiles (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-profiles)
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There are plenty of fish that would go. It is so difficult to think of them all :)
I think the best thing you can do is go and look in all your local shops and make a note of the fish that catch your eye. Don't buy any of them, if asked just say you are trying to decide.
Once you've finished looking, sit down and look up all the fish you noted on Seriously Fish. In particular, look at the hardness they need; the size of tank they need; and in the Behaviour and Compatibility section, see if there is anything about them being fin nippers. This will eliminate a lot of the fish you noted but there will be plenty left. Those are the ones to choose from.
There is nothing worse that deciding that x fish would fit perfectly and then discover that no-one sells it. I speak from experience ;)
Don't listen to anyone in the shops if they suggest fish and try to get you to buy them. So many shop workers will say any rubbish to make a sale and will suggest the most unsuitable fish.
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That's good advice Sue,
I'll do a packed lunch tomorrow and head of to my nearest place down here in the wilds of Devon, which is a MA two hours drive away, wish me luck.
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That sounds like it will take all day :o
I am lucky, 2 MAs, and 3 good privately owned shops within half an hour's drive.
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Lucky you :)
plus you said don't buy anything !! just have a look and ask questions :yikes:
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If you can access Seriously Fish while you are at the shop, then by all means look up the fish you like while you are there. Or in the car park. I tend to forget that this is possible as my mobile just makes phone calls and sends text messages. (I just can't touch the right place on the screen with phones, tablets etc so I use a laptop with a keyboard)
Don't ask them questions, they could tell you any old rubbish! Just fend them off if they ask you 'can I help' until you have made a decision.
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Ah! ah!
I'm the same as you, only a lap top for me ;D maybe they'll let me borrow their computer :yikes:
Oh! and I forgot to mention that in the Land Rover the trip is going to cost me over £10.00 in diesel !! Happy Days :sick:
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Most tetras are fine with Angels. Let's try a different approach. What tetras do you like?
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I agree.
It's just the very smallest that could get eaten, the very nippy ones that could nip the angels or the biggest tetras that need a tank longer than 100-ish cm. The rest are fine, but that still leaves a huge number, so many that is difficult to make suggestions.
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My tank is 90x40 and 50 high..........and I really like Red Eyes .
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My tank is 90x40 and 50 high..........and I really like Red Eyes .
Go for them. They're usually only nippy when not in a big enough group, and therefore bored. 10 or 12 should be fine. Never any guarantees but they should be fine. I love them too, one of my first ever tropicals.
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I take it you mean the South American Red Eyes as opposed to the African ones...
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Oooo! don't confuse me Mark :yikes:
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That's the trouble with common names :)
Red eye tetra http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/moenkhausia-sanctaefilomenae/
African red eye tetra http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/Arnoldichthys-spilopterus
As you'll see in those links, the south American one is the smaller of the two and is suitable for your tank. The African one is bigger, and needs a bigger tank than you have.
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At last :)
I've decided to buy 10 South American Red Eyes to go with my Angels
and if it all kicks off in my tank I'll just blame everybody on here :yikes:
NO!! Only joking ;) ;D ;D :cheers: