Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: AndreaC on December 17, 2014, 04:18:13 AM
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Hi all :) So for the last few months I've been running a very old 60L tropical community tank which was home to a pair of honey gouramis, 10 cardinal tetras, 6 panda cories and 5 otocinclus catfish. The other day I noticed that my tank had started to leak and my partner said it couldn't be fixed with the fish still in it so tragically I was forced to upgrade to a much nicer 140L tank which my fish are now acclimating into :D I'm now looking into additional tank mates for my fish and was hoping for some advice.
I was in the fish store yesterday and they had a breeding pair of rainbow cichlids which I absolutely fell in love with and in a sudden rush of blood to the head asked to reserve them without knowing anything about them. So I was wondering (before I make a terrible mistake) if they'll be okay in my new set up, or whether they're going to pick on my cories. When I manage to repair my other tank I'm planning to move my otos back into it to make room for two bristlenose plecos. I was also hoping to get five or so dwarf chain loaches. I know that this would be pushing the bioload of the tank, but if I kept up obsessive tank maintenance do you think it would be okay? Lastly, I would like to know if (to push the bioload even further) I could add another fish or two that will stay near the top of the tank with my gouramis? I looked at hatchet fish but decided I didn't want to deal with suicide attempts every time I went to clean the tank but I can't think of any other species that would work in this set up. I'd be happy to get another few gouramis as long as that wouldn't upset the ones I have.
I have fairly soft water with a pH of about 7.2 and I keep the tank at about 23 degrees.
Any advice would be very much appreciated :)
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Hmmm, I'm not that well up in central American cichlids. They are reputed to be timid fish except when spawning when they can become aggressive. The fish I would be concerned with are your cories. Cories have no concept of territory; they will repeatedly invade the territory of a territorial species (eg spawning rainbow cichlids) and won't learn to stay out. They could end up somewhat damaged if the cichlids breed.
And I'm sure I've read somewhere that dwarf chain loaches don't mix well with cories. I'll have to dig round see if I can find it again.
Aha! Found it on Practical Fishkeeping's site
Be cautious, however, about keeping sids with slow peaceful bottom-dwelling Corydoras catfish and the like, as ‘the monkeys’ can be too boisterous. They have been known to be so inquisitive as to inflict physical injury on Corydoras, such as biting at their eyes.
I don’t want to seem alarmist, as more often than not there will be no compatibility issues whatsoever. Most of the time, sids are very much model citizens.
I have just entered the fish you already have and rainbow cichlids into the community creator, and it flags up that rainbow cichlids are too big to be kept with all of them.
If it were me, I think I'd give the rainbows a miss and maybe look at something smaller and therefore more compatible with your current fish. For instance, cockatoo cichlids (Apistogramma cacatuoides) or even a pair of Bolivian rams. Both of these would be fine at 23 deg.
With Bolivian rams, they mate for life and like to chose their own partners, as for rams in your other thread.
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Grrr okay, well I'm happy enough to give up on having chain loaches. I thought they were cool but not enough that I'd put my very much loved cories at risk. I loved the behaviour the rainbow cichlids were displaying and made me certain that I definitely do want to try keeping a mated pair of cichlids. I originally wanted kribs but all the research i did suggested that while spawning basically all of my other fish would be at risk which I definitely don't want. Am I best to try to find a pair of apistos for my 140L and a pair of rams for my 60L?
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That might be the best idea.
Other fish to look at are Nannacara anomala (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/nannacara-anomala/) or one of the Laetacaras eg L curviceps here (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/laetacara-curviceps/) and here (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/flag-cichlid.html) or L dorsigera (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/laetacara-dorsigera/)
I recently got a trio of the Nannacaras, though I think one of the females might be another male ??? . Lovely little fish. The male is metallic light blue and the one I think is a female is orange and black. So far they have been peaceful towards the other fish though that could change if they decide to breed.......
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Gosh they're lovely! I especially liked the flag cichlid! I have never seen any of them in stores though I might have a look around for some private breeders and see if i can find any though :)
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Okay, so after lots and lots and lots of thinking, I've worked out a stocking list for my 140L that I really hope will work. Please let me know your thoughts, especially if you agree with me :p
1 bristlenose pleco
8 panda cories
15 rummynose tetras
1 cockatoo cichlid
8 honey gouramis (2 males, 4 females)
1 breeding pair of electric blue rams.
That puts my stocking level at about 85%, which I'm confident that I can maintain.
I do have a few other fish in that tank at the moment which I'll move to my 60L once it's fixed and i'll just keep it as a well planted tank for my odds and ends. No idea what I'm going to do with the eel :/
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errrr..... don't wish to be pedantic (oh, alright - I do), but 2 male + 4 female doesn't = 8 gourami. :isay:
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Haha sorry, i meant 2 males and 6 females. Apart from my terrible arithmetic how does that sound?
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I know you said in another post that shops only have one apisto in stock at a time but they do better with company. Females don't look like males; they are smaller and plain brown in shop tanks - is it possible you overlooked the females? They do change colour when they settle in. The females of all species of apisto are yellow, even the species where the males are blue.
I've just looked at kuhli loaches in the community creator (or coolie loaches as they are there) and am very surprised to see that they have a rating of 8cm each. I was always under the impression that they had a small bioload because they were so thin. If it is a kuhli loach and you decide to keep it, it would be much happier with some others of the same species (there are a few different species, most of them striped) and despite the CC I would say you'd be OK with them. Think of them as a replacement for chain loaches.
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I'm happy to look for a pair and I'm sure there's a breeder somewhere who'll have one, I just thought it would be a bad idea to have the potential for two breeding pairs of cichlids in the same tank? Or would there be enough room for them that it would be okay?
I never really considered kuhli loaches because most of the time they just seem to hide away and you don't see much of them. Would my black one be happy with a couple of striped ones for company? I'm willing to do that but I'm not really up to changing to sand. Unless it'd be okay by itself for a bit and then when I get my 60L up and running again I can put sand in that tank and transfer it then and get it a few friends at that point? Please nobody comment on my phrasing of that last sentence lol it's been a long day...
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Oops, missed the rams at the bottom of the list :-[
I would stick with just one species of cichlid. And since you don't sound too keen on keeping an unwanted fish, see if you can rehome the kuhli. Like most gregarious fish, they are best with others of the same species. They will shoal with related species if forced to by lack of their own, but this is very much second best for them.
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So I have to choose between keeping rams and keeping apistos? Life is hard!
Well I'm happy to get him a few kuhli loaches for company if it doesn't matter that they're stripey and he's not. But if it's really important that he has a sandy substrate then it's probably best I find him another home because I won't be able to set up my 60L again for at least four months :(
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Kuhlis do need sand because of their habit of burrowing, gravel can damage their skin. But they would be fine for the 60 litre when you get that back up.
Re the cichlids, I haven't actually asked you yet, what is the size of the floor of the tank? If it is a long or wide tank rather than tall, you might get away with both. If it is a tall tank with a small floor area for the volume, stick to just one. It's all down to the amount of floor space available for territories.
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The tank is 90cm long and 35cm deep which I think is quite standard? I know about putting piles of rocks at each end of the aquarium etc to encourage cichlid pairs to choose territories away from each other. I would dearly love to have both but I'd rather not risk major issues, especially when I have nowhere else to put them if something does happen
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That's just slightly longer than my old 125 litre (that was 81 x 36cm). I wouldn't keep two species in my 125 litre.
Apistos like caves to spawn in, while rams like to lay eggs on the surface of flat rocks, if that helps with the decor layout :)
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So google lied to me! That does make sense though :) This actually might be a case of picking whichever one I can find a mated pair of first lol At least then I don't have to make any more hard decisions! Just one more question seeing as now I'm doubting everything that google told me; would having eight honey gouramis (2 males) work my in my tank? The source that I read said they do in fact live in quite big groups and that as long as you keep lots more females than males it'll be fine?
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Ooh okay, I've just read that you should keep apistos in harems so if I can get hold of some, should I keep one male and three females? Or will that make things too stressful for my cories?
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Some species of apisto need harems but some need to be kept as a pair. Cockatoos, if they were the ones you were thinking of, are harem breeders. But with a tank with your footprint I would go for 1m 2f. The floor of the tank isn't quite big enough for 3 female territories. If you do get apistos, you need a cave for each female plus one extra so they get some choice. The caves can be made of anything that takes your eye. I even had one female that liked to lay eggs in a hollow in a piece of bogwood about 6 inches above the tank floor.
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Okay, I can certainly do that :) and the gouramis? will two males be okay in my tank? or would i be better to stick to just one male and lots of females?
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You might be OK with two male honey gouramis. They are the least aggressive gourami species. It's when the tank is small (40 or 50 litres) that male honeys are more likely to disagree. But I would suggest having something tall reaching to almost the surface of the tank for them to use as territory boundaries and to break up their line of sight.
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Okay cool, thanks Sue :) So final stocking list:
8 honey gouramis (6 females, 2 males)
3 Cockatoo cichlids (2 females, 1 male)
8 Panda cories
6 otocinclus
15 Rummynose tetras
Should this all work fine? Obviously I won't add too many more fish until I can start moving the others into my 60L, but I'd like to know what I'm aiming for :)
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That sounds fine.
You will find the community creator warns that honey gouramis may be too delicate to mix with dwarf cichlids. I have had them both in the same tank with no problems.
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I definitely feel like I'm up for the challenge but i will make sure I set the tank up well and watch them carefully :) I was at the fish store today and I saw some absolutely fabulous looking kribs. I ruled them out because I thought they would be too aggressive when spawning for a smallish tank, but my parents said they kept them with other cichlids in a community tank with no problems. Is it worth considering keeping them instead of the apistos? Or would they rip my cories up?
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To be honest, I don't know. I've never had kribs so I can only go by what I read.
But I do agree, kribs are gorgeous looking fish.
I think I read that with kribs it's the female that chooses a male. If you decide on them, it's worth watching the tank for a short while before buying to see if you can identify a pair.
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Alternatively, you could try to get two females. Kribs are said to be peaceful, in fact rather shy, except when breeding when the male can terrorise the tank. With two females, they would never breed and females are the more colourful in this species.
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Hmmm I would really like to try breeding them because the behavior is so interesting. I did read that they're also a bit picky when it comes to mates so I'll definitely make sure I get an already established pair. Do you know how often they breed though?
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I think how often they breed depends on their conditions. They would probably breed more often if conditioned on live foods.
However, don't forget that even these smaller cichlids can turn very territorial when breeding and may become very aggressive towards other fish in the tank. Also, what about the fry? You will have to give them special food when they are young. And what will you do with them? Your LFS may take them, but not until they have grown considerably. Would your tank have enough spare capacity to cope with say 50 to 100 extra fish of 3 cms or so? Kribs can lay up to 300 eggs.
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Haha such practical questions! To be honest I kind of assumed all the fry would actually be eaten? That's what happened in my parents' tank anyway. Are the kribs good enough parents that that doesn't happen very often? I definitely don't have room for even twenty baby kribs.
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Yep, I'm pretty well-known for asking the awkward questions, it's always important to consider the possible downside of things as well as the vision of the beautiful tank and community of fish you hope for :)
The other fish you are proposing are pretty small, Kribs will defend their young and they may well survive until they are big enough not to be eaten by these. Maybe your parents had bigger fish in their tank?
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Yeah, that's a really good point. They did have a few pretty aggressive fish in that tank... sometimes I wonder how they didn't have more problems :/ I might just have to get two females. That's not unfair to them, is it? Like deep in their psyche they won't miss not having the chance to mate? My fiance keeps trying to assure me that fish are essentially like plants, but I find that really hard to believe!
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Lots of people keep only male guppies, male or female platies, single male bettas etc. none of which get the chance to mate. I suspect that they are a lot more frustrated than a couple of female kribs would be.
After a great deal of heart searching I eventually rejected getting any cichlids in any of my tanks for the very reason that they might be OK until mating time and then become aggressive.
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Yeah, I'm pretty risk averse as well but I'd so desperately like to try having cichlids... I worry so much about my cories though and would be devastated if they got hurt by another fish because I was negligent. Would kribs be okay in a 60L by themselves for a while if I had to move them in a hurry? I guess the first question I really need to ask my fish shop is whether they'll take the kribs (or any baby kribs) back if they start causing problems.