Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: Harbremily on April 26, 2017, 10:13:09 PM
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Hi there! I have a question I was hoping someone may be able to help with haha.
I'll be getting a pair of rams for my 55l. My water is naturally hard so I'll be softening the water of this tank. I'd also like to keep some celestial pearl rasbora. I used the tool on this site and it suggested that with 2 rams and 10 rasbora i'd be 50% stocked, but this seems like a lot of fish? My tank is very heavily planted with bog wood and a sandy substrate. The temperature is at 26.5c at present (the rasbora near me are fine in warmer water!). Would I be able to have some neons in this too? Or should I go for more rasbora? Would neons be better in general than the rasbora? I plan on adding shrimp once there's more algal growth.
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Welcome to the forum. :wave:
Celestial pearl danios / galaxy rasbora are increasingly being recommended on some other 'bona fide' websites as being kept in large groups - as many as 20+. For that reason, I'd err on having more of those rather than a shoal of something different. Additionally, neon tetras are very sensitive these days and are best added to a tank that is mature (eg 6-9+ months).
Hope that helps.
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Thanks!
Would a 55 litre be able to take 2 rams and a shoal that large? The tool puts me into amber with 20 rasbora, so I'd be very loath to do that when rams can be so temperamental. The tool suggests 15 would be the maximum I could keep whilst staying in the green. Do you think this would work or is it too many?
Cheers for the help :fishy1:
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Hi there and welcome to the forum. :wave:
You could always start with 15, then increase your numbers at a later date. I have done that with some of mine, many months later. However, I have hard water and don't have any experience with rams or rasbora, so probably better to get some advice from those that do. :)
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I agree - best to go with 15, at least for now.
:fishy1:
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Great! I'll start with 15 and if everyone's happy after a couple of months I'll be adding 5 more.
I actually have hard water myself @Littlefish I'll just be softening the water in this tank for them. I'll be looking for stocking options on a harder water 130l I'll be setting up soon 👍
Thanks again guys!
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I too would go for more cpds rather than a third species.
Can I ask a couple of questions.
How do you intend to soften the water?
Do you know about fishless cycling?
Do you know that rams need to choose their own mates, and how to select a bonded pair from the shop tank?
OK, so that's four questions not two ;D
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Hi sue,
I'll be buying RO water and using almond leaves, alder cones, and driftwood as well as a blackwater agent if needed. I'm looking at an RO device for myself I'm just trying to work out if I attach it to a tap or have to plumb it in (advice here would be helpful actually).
The tank is already cycled housing a betta and some endler hybrids (not ideal due to temp differences but the endlers are going back to the store soon and are just in there now to keep bacteria levels up). The betta is going into his own 22l when it cycles. I've been trying to get mature media to help this.
I do know about ram pairing so I'll be looking for a pre bonded pair or I'll be getting a few juveniles, letting a pair form, and then swapping the spare juveniles for the danio.
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I hope you didn't mind me asking :) Some people seem to think that adding pH down or some such will also soften water :o
You know what you are doing so I didn't need to worry :D
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There is another stocking plan to think about. Since cpds are fine in hard water, keep them for the hard water tank and put cardinal tetras in the 55 litre with the rams. One advantage is that rams like water a bit on the warm side, the same as rams.
Though you may already have a stock list planned for the hard water tank ;)
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I absolutely wouldn't be adverse to some cardinals, especially if it means I can have a bigger group of cpd in my larger tank ;) Would I be looking at similar numbers of stocking in the cardinals or should I go a few less.
I don't mind you checking my knowledge at all! I'm not new to the hobby though, I just fell out of it on the year CPDs were introduced to the hobby since a family member thought putting a pair of very mature blind cave fish with my CPDs was smart (CPDs were very rare and expensive at the time). Needless to say i had some very fat cave fish and no CPDs by the end of it :vcross:
I'll just have to do more research on this RO system and try to find some mature filter media. That stuff is as rare as hen's teeth!
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I would go with fewer cardinals than cpds as they are bigger fish. 10 should be OK.
Have you seen this thread https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/list-of-members-willing-to-donate-mature-media-for-cycling/
Considering the night time temperatures at the moment, it might be better to wait a few days before posting any media though.
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Yeah I'd assumed 10 would be more in line. Had the tank been more mature I'd have gone for neons ::)
I hadn't seen that thread! I'll drop you a note in the next week or so if it warms up; that'll be a great help. I'll be keeping spare mature media in Harvey's tank (my betta) once it's going so this won't be an issue in future. The filter in my 55l just didn't permit it so easily, especially given I'm going to need to take the active carbon out and put more sponge or ceramic in :-\
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:isay: Has anyone else ever had to explain to their family that yes, I really do need to buy this 'fancy fish water' and no 'they can't just go in the tap stuff' ::) Just had the joys of that and got some disgruntled sighs.
Found out my local fish store sells RO water for £2 per 25l. Given I do 25% water changes weekly if I buy 50l that's basically going to last me two months assuming I can use half and half with tap. I need to check my GH though :o Honestly, it's probably easier to just do this vs buying something I'm not really sure how to fit to my shower :fishy1:
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I've never had the water conversation but when I told my friends how cool it felt to have a shrimp on my hand I got the same sighs! ;D
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It also occurs to me to ask how high nitrate is in your tap water? Rams are nitrate sensitive fish and if you have nitrate at near the legal maximum of 50 ppm you'll need to use a fair amount of RO water to keep nitrate low.
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Sorry to cut in on this, but what dimensions are your 55l? I have an Aquanano 40 which is 55l, but as it's cube shaped, it's just 40cm long. Cardinals are beautiful, but in a tank of that size I'd go for the smaller Green Neons (Paracheirodon simulans). They also like the softer water and their smaller size would allow for a larger shoal.
If you want to avoid the hassle of RO water, you could keep Apistogramma hongsloi instead of Rams. They're suited to the smaller aquarium and hard water. They'd look great with a school of Nannostomus beckfordi.
As you seem to have done you're research I'm guessing you're aware of Emerald Dwarf Rasbora (Celestichthys erythromicron), a beautiful small fish that adores hard water. Pseudomugil species are also great in small hard water tanks.
Good luck whichever route you choose!
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I hadn't thought of the dimensions :-[ Because I had a 50 litre tank that was 60 cm long, I tend to think in those terms.
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Sorry to cut in on this, but what dimensions are your 55l? I have an Aquanano 40 which is 55l, but as it's cube shaped, it's just 40cm long. Cardinals are beautiful, but in a tank of that size I'd go for the smaller Green Neons (Paracheirodon simulans). They also like the softer water and their smaller size would allow for a larger shoal.
If you want to avoid the hassle of RO water, you could keep Apistogramma hongsloi instead of Rams. They're suited to the smaller aquarium and hard water. They'd look great with a school of Nannostomus beckfordi.
As you seem to have done you're research I'm guessing you're aware of Emerald Dwarf Rasbora (Celestichthys erythromicron), a beautiful small fish that adores hard water. Pseudomugil species are also great in small hard water tanks.
Good luck whichever route you choose!
We actually have the same tank, and you raise a very good point. I think that's probably why I considered the CPD in retrospect. I don't mind the RO water route because I just adore rams; they're my favourite freshwater fish outside of Betta.
I'm not too keen on the EDR personally, but thank you for the suggestion! I've been toying with the idea of Apistogramma hongsloi in the larger hard water tank I'll be setting up. I don't like them quite as much as rams but they're a very very close second :)) I think I'll take your advice on the green neons though; what would you suggest for them # wise? I'm not totally familiar with that specific fish. They look to reach similar sizes to the neons though so would it be suggested to have about 15 of these little guys?
It also occurs to me to ask how high nitrate is in your tap water? Rams are nitrate sensitive fish and if you have nitrate at near the legal maximum of 50 ppm you'll need to use a fair amount of RO water to keep nitrate low.
6.46 ppm, so I think I should be good? Nitrite is 0.009 if that's any relevance.
edit;
actually here's my water in general
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Harvey decided to come up and have a bit of a pose when I went to turn the light off so I thought I'd show you the tank that'll be for the rams etc once the current chaps move to their permanent homes. I'll be buying a heater cover tomorrow though Harvey doesn't hug the heater, he prefers the plants so it's not really an issue.
The marimo will be going into other tanks with some java moss going onto the wood in here. Maybe on small rocks. Haven't decided yet!
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Hello Harvey :wave:
You are a very handsome chap.
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The tank is already cycled housing a betta and some endler hybrids (not ideal due to temp differences but the endlers are going back to the store soon and are just in there now to keep bacteria levels up). The betta is going into his own 22l when it cycles. I've been trying to get mature media to help this.
I'm a bit slow but I have just read about the betta, then noticed this in a previous post. You can take some media from the tank the betta is currently in to kick start the cycle in the 22 litre tank.
Your nitrate level is good. In a lot of the country the nitrate level is very high and if you had been in one in those areas you might have had to use a higher proportion of RO just to get nitrate down for the rams.
Green neon tetras are almost all wild caught so will need to be kept close to their preferred water parameters of 18 - 143 ppm hardness and 3.0 - 6.5 pH. I have kept these fish in the past and my GH is about 90 but the pH is 7.5 and they were OK in that as hardness is more important than pH.
I would get a GH tester to check your tap/RO mixture is at the right level (below 10 german deg or 180 ppm)
Green neons are the smallest of the three pracheirodons and they are the bluest as the stripe goes right into the tail; though they have the least red of the three. They may be called green neons but they only look greeny blue when the light catches them at a particular angle - when you look down on them.
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The green neons look great and they're definitely smaller than neons. Personally I'd start with a dozen and see how you go.
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Ember tetras would work as well - they are smaller than green neons, and about the same size as celestial pearl danios. Their colour is usually washed out in shop tanks, but once they settle in they are deep orange. I've had ember tetras too :)
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So! When I went to my local fish store to pick up some bloodworm I was shown some rams which, according to them, are happy in our local tap water. I was a bit sceptical but they've always been reliable in the past so I took them on their word at this. Came away with a little GBR female and an electric blue male. They're glued to each other which is sweet. Very pleased with the little boy since he's displaying very nice juvenile colours vs the bright cobalt you see in chain lfs stock. Harvey got aggressive pretty much immediately (expected) so I split the media in the aqua one filter with some safe start and just popped him right into his own 22l. All the levels are checking out so I'll just keep an eye on it; he seems happy and his usual active self.
The rams are settling in very well though they were very nervous yesterday, especially the boy who'd go dark pretty much immediately when I went near the tank. Now he's swimming to the front when he sees me begging for food; he's a bit roughed up and looks like he'd been bullied by the other rams he was with, but he's very active today. I've ordered a fluval U2 for my 55l since the filter in it was honestly just awful to open up for cleaning. I'm running both filters for a while until the U2 builds up what it needs. I'll be adding some fish with the rams at some point but right now I'm just seeing how they go since they're supposedly so ok with my local water. A little apprehensive about this though.
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If your lfs is getting the rams from a local breeder or has raised them themselves from fry they will indeed be better adjusted to your local water. If you get adult fish and breed them yourself the offspring will have far less water issues than the original adults as they are used to the water from the get go.
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:o Back again. The rams are still going strong and are clearly a mated pair. They're showing some really cool behaviour.
I currently have five chili rasbora in the tank with them (ended up with them sort of unintentionally) and a baby lemon longfin bristlenose which I'm growing out in there. What I'd like to know is how many chili's should I have that'd still allow me to try neons. The tanks been running for a couple of months now and if it's supporting rams I'd like to think neons would be possible. What numbers would I be looking at for the neons?
Also, at what point should I be moving the bristle into a bigger tank? It's only about 5cm right now not including tail.
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You could easily go with 8 neons, 8 rasbora, 2 rams long term. This would put you at 87% stocked. However, this does not factor in the bristlenose or the age of your tank (higher stocking levels are only recommended on a mature tank). You might want to consider getting the extra chilli rasbora too as they will be more confident in a larger group being such a small fish.
Regarding the bristlenose, you can technically keep him there until he is something like half / two thirds of the width of the tank- the point at which it become hard for him to move around. But this will prevent your plans above as he will add a lot of bioload to the tank being a big fish.
Hope that helps.
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Do you think it'd be worth running 10 rasbora, 8 neons, and 2 rams? The tank is heavily planted with a 110 litre rated filter.
I'll probably just move my bristle as soon as I have the larger tank. I got her mostly because she was small, a reasonable price, and I knew she'd currently fit. She's loving all the wood ::) Alternatively could she live in there longer and the rasbora go into the larger tank in a bigger shoal? And then have 1 bristle, 2 rams, and 8 neons?
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Both your ideas would also work :cheers:
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Sorry for all the questions. Would I be able to keep the bristle in there until size became her issue if i had embers and the little rasbora? The tank will actually be going right by my computer so I don't need bright flash fish for it to be interesting, I'm just fond of movement and interesting behaviour. My priority is the rams really; keeping them fit and healthy in my harder water is my overall goal so obviously everything in the tank needs to be good for everything in there haha.
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Yes, but have you tried using the community creator tool on this site? You'll be able to play around with different ideas until you settle on a way forwards...
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Yeah but I can't see Chili rasbora on it ???
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Just substitute for a similarly sized fish such as ember tetra/celestial pearl danio
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I have to substitute fish in the CC.
I have some chili rasboras. At least, that's what they were labelled as, but they are so small I think they are actually Boraras urophthalmoides, a very similar but smaller species. Shops sometimes sell the latter as sparrow rasboras.
I also have some of the slightly larger B. maculatus.
I don't have many of these fish, they are the last survivors of their shoals. There were in the 50 litre tank I had to close down so they are now in my 180 litre tank where I hardly ever see them as there is a lot of wood and plants in the bigger tank.
Some info on these 'microrasboras' here (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/boraras-marvels-in-miniature)
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Is the bioload for the Chili really equal to a cpd though? Whilst they can reach the same length the Chili is still much smaller a CPD makes 2 of a Chili from what what I've seen of them :o
I'm sure it's the Barati I have, I've been looking up what I can about them. I've seen people saying 3-4 Chili produce a similar bioload to a neon ???
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I'm sure it's the Barati I have
Do you mean brigittae?
I would say they have less bioload than a cpd because the body is so much thinner. Maybe not half the bioload but I'd use 4 cpds for every 6 chili rasboras in the CC. (Cpds being smaller than neons)