Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: Harbremily on June 15, 2017, 08:25:26 AM
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Hiya guys! I'm looking for a larger fish which aren't discus or angels to to in a 240l. The only thing I'm 100% sure on stocking is German blue rams. Whatever I gets needs to work with them. The tank is heavily planted with wood and rock.
Tank perams;
ph being 6.5 gh being >7 and kh being about 5
Local water: hard, ph 7.5, 113.1mg/l calcium
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Your local water hardness converts to almost 16 dH,which fits in with your tank parameters being over 7. It's a lot over 7.
But your KH is low, unusual though not impossible with high GH, and your pH is a lot lower than the local water level.
Are you doing anything to your tap water such as mixing it with RO?
We need to know exactly how hard the tank water is before suggesting fish, over 7 could be anything between 7 and the 16 dH given by your water company.
But I would not risk rams in a hardness of over 7.
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I use tropica soil powder which lowers ph, kh, and gh. I'm already keeping and spawning rams in a smaller tank with the same peramaters.
Filtration wise I have an aps 2000 with UV.
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I would be very interested to know how that soil powder can reduce hardness. As far as I'm aware the only way to do that is by removing calcium and magnesium from the water or diluting them with pure water ???
The rams you already have may well have had tank bred ancestors for generations. It is wild caught rams and those tank bred rams with recent wild caught ancestors that suffer in anything other than very soft water. Tank-bred-for-generations rams can also cope with 'normal' temperatures while wild caught need water at around 28 deg C.
Small shoaling fish are easy - anything for the Amazon region will go with rams. Larger fish are more difficult if you don't want angels or discus (which do need higher temps).
The larger gouramis - pearl, three spot colour varieties, snakeskin etc - would fit the bill size-wise but I am not sure about mixing their temperaments.
if you don't mind a larger shoaling fish, some of the tetras and barbs could work.
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I have no clue how it works, I just know my water tests read totally different now I use tge stuff haha.
I keep my tanks at 28 for the rams :)
I would actually have liked angels, but apparently they're liable to turn highly aggressive as they mature? I love them but I'd like more fish in the tank than just a mated pair of angels :(
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Do you intend having the 240 litre tank at 28 C as well? That will reduce the options quite a lot as there are few fish that can cope with that temp long term. In fact the only large fish I can think of that likes that temp is discus. And there are only a few species of smaller shoaling fish that are happy at that temp :-\
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I was going to have it at 27 so I had more flexibility, unless you feel I should go lower? I'll be keeping gold faced blue rams, so a line bred strain.
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I'll have to see what I can come up with.
Anyone else got any suggestions?
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Cheers sue!
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There's quite a few fish in the profiles on here that look to be ok at 27°C... am I missing something?
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I think sue just means larger fish? I'm looking at a shoal of emperor tetra (kirri) for dithers, but I'd still like something larger to go with them.
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Yes I am thinking of larger fish, there are several smaller fish.
But just because a fish has 27 deg right at the top end of its range does not mean it should be kept at that temp. We should aim to keep fish in the middle of its range.
The reason I'm having problems with larger tankmates is because of the comments on Seriously Fish (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mikrogeophagus-ramirezi/) saying that particularly recommended tankmates are "open water-dwelling characids or similar" (tetras and such like that swim higher up in the tank) and to avoid "territorial and aggressive fish such as most other cichlids".
From Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine - rams need peaceful, docile, slow moving, tranquil tank mates.
PFK says rams (and other dwarf south American cichlids) are best as a single pair in a tank of non-cichlids.
You can why I'm having trouble with ideas :(
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That's the issue I've been having, Sue :-\
I don't mind larger schooling fish if that helps.
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Shoaling fish I've seen recommended for rams (though most will be too small):
Bleeding heart tetra
Cardinal tetra
Rummy nose tetra
You might get away with dwarf rainbowfish (Melanotaenia praecox) if you don't mind mixing continents.
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I don't mind mixing continents; I hadn't considered dwarf rainbows because I always thought they were bland, but having looked at videos of them they seem quite colourful?
I've also considered diamond tetra and congo tetra
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Most fish in shops are pale and washed out because they are stressed. Dwarf rainbowfish have lovely pale blue metallic bodies with coloured fins. And the same applies to diamond and congo tetras, they will look a lot prettier once they settle into a tank.
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That's what I've been thinking. I'm also considering threadfin rainbows for my smaller fish, which probably would rule out congos who can be nippy?
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I've never kept diamond or congo tetras, but Seriously Fish comments that it is diamond tetras that can be nippy and that congo tetras should not be kept with nippy fish as their tails can get nipped.
But SF also says that congo tetras might scare timid fish fish with their fast swimming, and so many sites recommend tranquil (ie slow swimming) tank mates for rams.
It took me about three months to decide what to restock my 180 litre tank with last year......
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Yeah, I'm seriously struggling 😖
The only bigger fish I can think of are;
Diamond tetra
Congo Tetra
Pearl Gourami
Angelfish
Boesmani Rainbows
Dwarf Rainbows
Discus
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I would leave gouramis and angelfish off the list because of compatibility. But I had not considered boeseman rainbows because I know they are harder water fish. Checking on SF I see that they are OK down to 10 German deg. Their lower end is right at the top of rams hardness range so they don't really overlap. Boesemanis also need a 48 inch long tank - I know your tank is big, but is it long or tall?
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120cm long. What would the German degrees of my tank be? The same as my tapwater?
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In theory yes it would be the same. But things in the tank can alter GH, though it is usually upwards. Limestone, coral etc can increase GH.
You could take a sample of tap water to a shop and get them to test it for GH, but ask them to write the number down rather that say something waffly.
120 cm is fine for boesemans.
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I know my local hardness is 6.35 in German Degrees.
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Can I go back to the first post.
Tank perams;
ph being 6.5 gh being >7 and kh being about 5
Local water: hard, ph 7.5, 113.1mg/l calcium
There you gave your tank hardness as over 7 and your tap water as hard. Now you've said your tap water is 6.35
I am confused :-\
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The local ph is 7.5
The local hardness in german degrees is 6.35
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Ahh, in that case the water is fine for rams but not boeseman rainbows. Most rainbows need hard water but some, such as dwarf rainbows and threadfin rainbows that you mentioned earlier, are soft water fish.
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Fair enough. In that case I'm totally at a loss again :rotfl:
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Ok, so I'm thinking perhaps Celebes Rainbows? I'm reading that they can take a ph range between 6.5-8, though I'm also seeing reports of them taking much lower PH's than this?
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Unfortunately, the profile of the celebese rainbow on Seriously Fish (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/marosatherina-ladigesi/) gives the hardness range as 10 to 25 dH so your hardness isn't high enough for them.
Hardness is more important than pH when looking for a suitable species.
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:-\ I dunno then. I think that's pretty much everything haha.
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There is one course of action we haven't yet mentioned. Take a tour around all your local shops and see what they stock. make a note of anything that catches your eye (remembering that the fish in the shops still have some growing to do) then look them up on Seriously Fish. You could well see something that none of us have thought of.
You need fish that won't pick on the rams; fish that won't stress them by swimming too vigorously, and fish that like the same water as rams.
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The biggest issue I have there is I don't drive, and the only two decent fish stores sort of near me are about 30 minutes away by car. Which is fine but the person who'd take me isn't going to wait while I spend an hour where I'm not even buying something. The places are sort of in the middle of nowehere, so it's not like he could even go somewhere and do something else for a while.
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Ah, I'd forgotten that, sorry :-[
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Nothing to be sorry for! It just puts me in a position where I really have no clue what to do. Everything I'd like needs water with a harder degree than I have or can't take the temperature. It's a hard life lmfao.
What about these;
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/bedotia-madagascarensis/
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I looked at the Seriously Fish profile and didn't believe what I read. I have never heard of a fish that can live in water with such a huge hardness range - they give 0 to 268 ppm or 0 to 15 dH. My other go-to site is FishBase, and they don't give water requirements. I don't trust most of the sites found by google to give accurate information. But I did find one that was interesting http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/2721/0 If you scroll down to 'habitat and ecology' it does bear out what SF says, and this site should be reliable.
So yes, they would be suitable for your tank.
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I actually read in several sources that they can be really aggressive despite things saying they're peaceful. I've actually decided to go for the spotted headstander instead.
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I've just looked that up and it seems you have a winner. SF's list of suitable tank mates includes rams of both species. And at 7 to 8 cm it is a bigger fish.
Now all you have to do is find some :) There is always the option of on-line, though courier fees can be expensive. You mentioned Pets@Home and a garden centre - I would ask at the garden centre if they can order some in for you. The worst they can say is no. Make sure you have the latin name as well as the common name so that if they are willing to order them, they get the right fish. I have done this with my favourite shop and they have looked at their two wholesalers' websites while I've been in the shop to see if the fish I wanted were available.