Possible Changes To The Tank - Thoughts Welcome

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Offline fcmf

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Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« on: June 18, 2016, 12:30:54 PM »
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All these wonderful pictures of tank developments have got me thinking about potential changes to my own tank.

The situation re the lighting doesn't look as though it's ever going to change - the fish just won't tolerate anything more than a table lamp beside the tank. I put on the tank light the other day to take some pics and it's not just the tetras but also the harlies who behave completely distressed and don't calm down with time. I've tried covering the top of the tank in fake floating plants and putting on the light in the tank lid with the tank lid open, in the hope of gradually lowering the lid to see if they'll tolerate increased lighting, but it's a definite no-no. Therefore, I think, for the current occupants, lighting is never going to be an option, nor are real plants which will require at least some form of lighting. [cf http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fish-tanks-and-equipment/dim-lighting-suggestions/msg21971/#msg21971]

I'm just thinking through the pros and cons of changing the substrate to a dark one - a dark one would be more suited to their natural environment (although it may make the tank seem even darker than it already is in its non-lit state - will I actually be able to see in?!). I've read a couple of useful threads about changing substrates eg http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fish-tank-plant-advice/changing-substrate/msg17255/#msg17255 and http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/new-fishkeepers/changing-gravel-in-a-fishtank/msg14938/#msg14938 but don't want to cause any unnecessary upheaval/stress when all's been going so well. If I were to change the substrate, do you think it would be do-able with the fish remaining in the tank? On occasion, when I've vacuumed too thoroughly into the sand, there's a lot of debris which comes out and which distresses the fish. What would be the best way to do this:
*try to scoop out chunks of the wet sand in containers? ...or...
*purposefully disturb the sand to dislodge as much as possible of this debris and put in my spare third filter to try to capture as much of this as possible prior to scooping out chunks of the wet sand in containers?

Alternatively, I might not change the substrate at all, but try more decor - more wood, leaves, etc. If anything, I'd probably rather do this in order to minimise distress to the fish. Pics of the tank with light off and light on are in this thread http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fish-tanks-and-equipment/dim-lighting-suggestions/msg21971/#msg21971 but the tank has since got an additional 5 silk plants in it. The tank looks barer in the pics than it is in reality, and the taller pinkish plant which gets propped up above the wood actually covers a good part of the top of the tank like a canopy.

Suggestions welcome. :)  Health warnings and advance apologies for any distress caused to those by the sight of a tank with silk plants.


Offline Hampalong

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2016, 01:56:09 PM »
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Both of these species are from dimly lit environments, so I would suggest a darker substrate, a dimmer light than a standard tube, and more plant cover. Also a few more fish might help - either more of the same or another species or two (dither fish need dither fish too :) )

Is the water level normally as low as it is in your pictures? This could be causing refraction of light down the glass panes making it difficult for the fish to see through them, which could be adding to their nervousness.


Offline Richard W

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2016, 04:38:19 PM »
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Since many people keep these fish without such problems, it has to be the tank rather than the fish. To be honest, from the pictures, it looks a barren, hostile and uninviting habitat for fish, more suited to coral reef fish than small tropicals. I don't think a darker substrate would be the answer, the fish are still going to feel that they are out in the open and vulnerable. Real live plants in plenty are the best answer.

Are the back and sides of the tank clear glass? If so, I'd cover them with dark card or something so that the fish at least feel that they are not threatened from all sides at once. I painted all of mine black, which I think looks better and gives the fish security, but it wouldn't be a good idea while there are fish in the tank, fumes definitely a risk.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2016, 05:50:34 PM »
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Thanks for the replies so far.

I ought to have clarified for contextual purposes that the fish seem very content in their dim environment, with the exception of two situations - the weekly or twice-weekly water changes and the tank light ever being switched on which is very rarely done for the aforementioned reasons. The tetras' dorsal fins are strikingly bold and their tails very bright red, and the harlequins' patterning is similarly bold with the pink/orange shimmer. The behaviour is normally calm and relaxed - swimming (not usually in shoals, though), rest at the various "staging posts" (interspersed with occasional spats/bickering), and some long episodes of mating among the tetras for several mornings in a row every now and again. [During and following water changes, though, the tetras' tails go very pale, and all 12 fish shoal together. If the tank light is ever switched on, which is very rarely such as to take photographs, then, despite forewarning from sitting by the tank and opening the lid and then gradually closing it so that the light strength is gradual, there is complete panic and darting around in alarm and cowering under the silk plants, and which doesn't seem to cease with time.]

@hampalong:
*Yes, the water level unfortunately can't go any higher if I continue to use the filter which came with the tank. It has a waterfall effect and should be an inch above the waterline - unfortunately, it's not possible for it to be pushed up any higher in the tank than it already is. [I also have another filter in there which provides water surface movement.] It might be that I have to consider replacing the filter in order to increase the water level - the refraction (most likely when the light is on, given that they seem quite relaxed otherwise) isn't something I had thought of before.
*I'm pretty much stocked to full capacity, judging by the Community Creator, so I think any additions would probably have to be of the same species although open to further thoughts on this from anyone.

@Richard W:
*The back and right-hand-side are covered in dark blue aquarium background paper; it had originally been black but I changed this a few months ago; due to the location of the tank, and to be able to view it from the sofa, the left-hand-side hasn't been covered, and the fish seem to like this particular location when the table lamp adjacent to the tank is switched on (despite their extreme dislike to the lighting in the lid of the tank).

With real, live plants, I'm going to have to get some form of lighting, certainly a lot dimmer than this if the fish are to tolerate it  https://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/fluval-aqua-glo-t8-fluorescent-aquarium-bulb-40w-107-cm . Again, any suggestions welcome.

I'll take a few more photos if I can, which might help others to suggest further thoughts; thanks.

Offline apache6467

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2016, 05:56:55 PM »
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Do you have any bogwood or room for some? I suggest live plants strapped to bogwood since the sand will dislodge them. It has worked in my tank https://goo.gl/photos/Qxa3fo9cM3pRjaj26

And works fine.

Best of luck

Offline Richard W

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2016, 06:34:50 PM »
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The bogwood, with Java Fern, Anubias, Java Moss etc is a good idea. Some of my tanks have the top completely covered with Amazon Frogbit (helped, unfortunately by a fair amount of duckweed) which dramatically cuts down the light level. Having said that, the filter you describe doesn't sound very compatible with these.

If you want a dimmer light, I'd suggest trying to get LED lights which can be controlled with a dimmer. That way you could start very low and slowly increase the light levels.

I have 20 similar-sized fish in very slightly larger tanks (X-rays and Glowlights in one, Lemon and Flame tetras in another). They've been in for 2 years with normal to low levels of filtration with no problem, so you might consider adding still more fish.

Offline ColinB

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2016, 06:35:54 PM »
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Apaches idea of plants on wood is a good one. Anubias grows in dim light. Floating plants can help and so could having brown water staining. I've got all of these in my tank - the bog wood stains the water, the silvania <sp?> covers ~½ the surface and I've got black substrate. If anything, the fishes colours have intensified under these dimmer conditions.

The black substrate I've used is Caribsea Eco-complete which doesn't need a soil base with gravel capping. It's expensive, but I only needed one bag so I figured it was worth it. the Fish were only out of the tank for an hour, so didn't need a filtered container. I can now grow things I've failed miserably with all my fishkeeping days. Vallis is growing like a weed and other things are chucking out new leaves left, right and centre. I do have some DIY CO2 too, but the Vallis was rampant (oo-er) before that.

'scuse the typos, Tufnell is licking my hand while I'm tring to type. :)

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2016, 06:47:41 PM »
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Thanks, folks - some really helpful ideas here.  I'll take a deep breath and take the long-overdue plunge into "real aquatic plantkeeping"... :yikes:

Would LED lights be suitable/attachable for the inside of this lid, do you reckon?  (It's slightly curved and tends to get very wet with condensation.)

Offline Sue

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2016, 07:07:43 PM »
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I have an LED in my 50 litre which has a lid which looks a bit like that. The downside is that it has 2 settings, on and off, not the controllable type that Richard mentioned. It is a glass tube with LEDs inside and it has plastic end caps which fit over the ends of the tube so that it can be mounted in the T5 fluorescent holders. But it has its own power supply, it can't be powered by the fluorescent power supply. There are types than can be used with the fluorescent power supply if it has a magnetic ballast rather than an electronic ballast.




If that was my tank, I'd definitely replace that filter for one that you can use with the water level up to the bottom of the trim. I wouldn't be able to stand having that gap.

Offline apache6467

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2016, 09:21:07 PM »
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I have anubias
I agree with richard

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2016, 08:20:50 AM »
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I agree that apache's idea of plants on bogwood would work. I have anubias and java fern tied to wood etc. all of my tanks, along with other more demanding plants in some.

A light with a dimmer might get your fish used to having lights on, which would be great for watching them.  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2016, 09:56:54 AM »
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My plants are all java fern/anubias/bolbitis on wood too. I even grew java fern in the old betta's tank which did not have a light, though it did have a perspex cover which let light through.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2016, 12:30:20 PM »
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That's exactly the same tank I have, I now have a sponge filter in it as its my shrimpery and pygmy cory tank. I usually prop the tank lid up first thing in the morning before the lights come on and then lower it mid-afternoon and then lift it early evening. My take on a dimmer switch and because I'm not brave enough to tackle electronics myself. My 200l has blue and red LED lights that are timed to come on before the main light and then back on again before the main light goes off.

I'd probably suggest a lot more plants, real or artificial at differing levels to provide them with a lot more cover, at least double what you had in the photo. Then they'll feel safer with the lights on. Thats my tuppence worth anyways  :isay:

Offline fcmf

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2016, 02:59:30 PM »
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Thanks, folks.  I thought the tank was plant-heavy and why the fish enjoy spending so much time in the part of the tank without the plants ("the clearing" as I call it), but this has all been quite enlightening.

The tank already has bogwood in it but I bought a second piece today which I've been soaking in a bucket which I've been topping up with boiling water, to try to help it to sink and hopefully minimise the slimy/fluffy stuff which I had for the first 8 weeks or so on the first piece. For how long ought I to soak it for?

As mentioned in the "quarantining plants" post, I've bought anubias which I've been "preparing".

Once the bogwood has been sufficiently soaked, I'm going to attach the anubias to the bogwood in various places - hopefully it will grow onto the bogwood during its time in the QT, and the piece of bogwood with its thriving (I wish!) anubias can all can be moved into the QT in a few weeks' time.

Update a little later: been browsing through the plant section on this forum, and noticed in the following thread http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fish-tank-plant-advice/lighting-for-plant-growth/ about the potential effects of the lack of calcium on plants in a soft-water aquarium, so I'm going to add a lump of limestock rock to the QT.

That's exactly the same tank I have, I now have a sponge filter in it as its my shrimpery and pygmy cory tank.
Yes, I remember reading your post about the Marina i110 filter and how you changed its filter cartridge - I followed that advice (and Sue's) for converting its media to a sponge one. What filter do you now have in there?

Offline Fiona

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2016, 08:28:14 PM »
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I can't actually remember the brand but I'll check when I clean the filter tomorrow. I'd been looking for one online for ages without success and saw this one in a display tank and got them to order me one as it was perfect. Sponge filter with very adjustable outlet for surface agitation.

Offline Sue

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2016, 08:44:15 PM »
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Do you mean the filter in this thread?

Offline Fiona

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2016, 12:49:55 PM »
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Do you mean the filter in this thread?
Oooo thank you  Sue, thats the one

Offline fcmf

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2016, 01:25:37 PM »
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Thanks, both.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2016, 09:57:10 PM »
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Some of the live plants were moved into the tank from the QT last week and all seemed to be going reasonably well. However, the new piece of driftwood, to which java fern, java moss and anubias were attached, was kept in the QT for a further week until it stopped floating. Took a quick ten-minute "timeout" from working today to move it into the main tank approx 9 hours ago. Unfortunately it's not gone down well at all with the inhabitants - the tetras' tails have been pale and haven't coloured up at all since, while everyone's been crouching in a group of 12, too afraid to move and refusing to eat dinner. I think they've been so used to having lots of space to spread out in and mingle together in the "clearing" area as they pleased, and now they've lost a substantial amount of space. Is it likely that the situation will change with time, or ought I to restore the tank to its original layout and "accept" ;) that it's time to get a second, substantive tank to accommodate the new bogwood adorned with live plants (oh, and some fish for it too, of course)?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Possible changes to the tank - thoughts welcome
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2016, 06:26:50 AM »
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I'm not sure that I'm the right person to respond to this, but I would always consider an extra tank.  ;D

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