Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: Fishbeard on October 25, 2020, 11:01:44 PM
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So, in light of my recent struggles with algae, and my general frustrations with the hobby, I've decided to take a somewhat drastic step and buy a larger tank. My current tank has to go in the conservatory because I don't have any furniture strong enough to take the weight, other than the massive sideboard in the conservatory, which is too big to go in any other room. The tank's also a bit small, which limits what I can keep in it, so I have now bought a Fluval Roma 125L tank to go in the front room, where it will get a lot less sunlight. It's also over double the size of my current tank, and that means... more fish!
My water is 6.64°D (118ppm) and the pH is about 7.6. My tap water has nitrates in the 20-40 region.
I'll close down my current tank and move its inhabitants across once the 125L is up and running. I would assume that I'm going to have to fully cycle the new tank first, and I can't just transfer everything from the old tank across to make life easier?
My current tank contains:
7 panda corydoras
1 cockatoo apisto (m)
10 amano shrimp
I would like to add a clown pleco. I think they're more interesting than the bristlenose from when I've seen them in pet shops, but the community creator here tells me that they're too big to be mixed with the panda corys. It doesn't say the same for the bristlenose plec, even though that grows to be bigger than the clown. Can someone explain what the problem would be with the clown pleco? From the profile descriptions here and elsewhere, I can't see anything that stands out as a reason for it to be problematic.
I would also like a group of shoaling fish to inhabit the upper regions of the tank. Some sort of tetra is the obvious choice, but I went for the rummy nose first and then got told that it's also too small to co-exist with the clown pleco, then my second choice was the glowlight and I got the same message! Again, my question about the clown pleco comes up, are they really so problematic? I like the clown pleco enough that I'd choose other shoaling fish that were compatible, so if anyone's got a good suggestion for a shoal that'd work fine with my tank, I'm all ears.
Then there's the matter of the cockatoo. He was bought with a female mate, but she died and he's been along ever since. He doesn't appear to be unhappy, he's moving around fine, eating well and he's a good colour, so should I bring in another female, or can I leave him on his own?
With my current bunch, a clown plec and a dozen rummy nose tetras, I'm stocked to about 55% so there's still room for more. Does anyone have any suggestions for compatible fish, or should I be looking to make the shoal bigger, and go up to 16-20 fish?
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I'll close down my current tank and move its inhabitants across once the 125L is up and running. I would assume that I'm going to have to fully cycle the new tank first, and I can't just transfer everything from the old tank across to make life easier?
You can do one of two things.
1. Fishless cycle the new tank, then move everything over
2. Move the fish and the filter at the same time - and as much as possible from the old tank.
With option 2, either move the entire old filter and run the old and new filters together for several weeks, or persuade the media from the old filter to fit inside the new filter. With this method, you would need to test ammonia and nitrite every day as you will lose the bacteria on every surface that's not moved over - the tank walls, for example. Moving the substrate (washed with warm dechlorinated water) and all the decor will also help to transfer bacteria.
This is what I did when I upgraded from 125 to 180 litres, though in my case the filter was already rated for over 180 litres so I just used the same one.
With this method, you can't get more fish immediately, you need to wait a couple of weeks until you know that the tank has settled and the water levels are good.
The fish species index says clown plec, but the actual heading is "dwarf plec/Plekoltia" which covers a number of species. It may be that the CC was programmed for the largest of these species. If you look at planetcatfish (the plec experts) they say the clown loach plec can be kept with "a school of small tetras"
I would definitely increase the numbers of panda cories to at least 10 and get at least 10 of the tetra that you want.
Cockatoo cichlids are harem breeders so you could have two females in the new tank. You would need 3 caves (made of whatever you like) spaced evenly on the tank floor - the usual recommendation is one per female plus one extra to give them some choice.
Re the CC, something occurs to me. Which type of filter came with the new tank, a U series internal or an external? The CC allows more fish if the filter is an external, but this is not really true. We managed to get the extra amount of fish reduced, but in reality the type or size of filter does not affect the number of fish you can have as long as it is adequate for the tank size. Always use 'internal' for filter type in the CC.
Edited for typo :-[
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Hi Sue,
Thanks for your reply!
The tank comes with the U3 internal filter, and I'll use that when playing around with the creatort on here.
It seems like the easiest option is to move the fish, filter, sand, plants and everything else. Might I ask why the sand needs to be washed with warm dechlorinated water first? If it's already in my tank, shouldn't it already be suitable? My only concern was to try to get the fish out before I started churning up the sand, so as not to disturb any nitrogen pockets that may have formed.
It's good news on the clown plec/dwarf plec/plekoltia front, then! I'll increase the cories by a bit (assuming they don't beat me to it) and then think about shoals.
With the cichlids, I presume the caves are purely for breeding - the females won't take up permanent residence in them, will they? If I'm not interested in breeding them, do I still need to provide caves? I've never really thought about it before - the cories are the only fish I've ever bred and that was done without any encouragement or assistance on my part! Do the females need dedicated caves, or will they share with other fish? I've got a fake rock/cave thing that the shrimp live in at present - would that count as one of the three?
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It seems like the easiest option is to move the fish, filter, sand, plants and everything else. Might I ask why the sand needs to be washed with warm dechlorinated water first? If it's already in my tank, shouldn't it already be suitable? My only concern was to try to get the fish out before I started churning up the sand, so as not to disturb any nitrogen pockets that may have formed.
The sand will not be clean. You will be surprised at the amount of muck in it - fine brown particles.
I recently added more sand to my tank, but I wanted the new sand underneath and the old sand, with all its micro-organisms, on top. So I sucked all the old sand out with the siphon tube being very careful not to stir it up too much. The water on top of the sand in the bucket was dark brown and i had to wash it before I could put it back in the tank :sick: Yours may not be as disgusting as mine, but be prepared just in case. I used dechlorinated water to wash it so i didn't kill the micro-organisms and warm water as my tap water is pretty cold.
Sand is easier than gravel because it can be removed by sucking it out rather than scooping it out. My sand had got thin over the years with bits being lost at each water change so I don't think mine was deep enough for gas pockets. But I have read about people with deep sand losing fish when they removed it with fish still in the tank.
But as you'll be taking the fish out of the tank anyway, it is safer to remove the fish then remove the substrate.
With the cichlids, I presume the caves are purely for breeding - the females won't take up permanent residence in them, will they? If I'm not interested in breeding them, do I still need to provide caves? I've never really thought about it before - the cories are the only fish I've ever bred and that was done without any encouragement or assistance on my part! Do the females need dedicated caves, or will they share with other fish? I've got a fake rock/cave thing that the shrimp live in at present - would that count as one of the three?
Fish that breed in caves expect some sort of cave type things in their environment whether they use them or not, and I like to give fish things they expect. Even if they do breed, between the cories and a plec any eggs won't last long.
Caves can be anything from a piece of wood with a hole in it, to a slate cave to a plastic fake log. Anything that looks vaguely cave shaped.
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So the tank is arriving tomorrow. I'll get it into place and then look at doing the great migration on Saturday when I've got a bit more time.
Are we still fine using children's play sand? I know that's what I used the last time I set up a tank, but things move quickly in this hobby and what was fine a few years ago sometimes isn't fine any more. It's just a LOT cheaper than buying sand from an LFS. Though I'll likely visit one over the weekend to size up some more roots/bogwood and cave-type things.
With regards to introducing new fish, I'm looking at the following new fish:
1x Clown Plec
3x Panda Cory
2x Cockatoo Apisto (F)
10x Unspecified schooling fish
How quickly can I introduce the above without overloading the tank? Is there a formula I can work with? I feel like I would be better off introducing the schooling fish all at the same time, but if I was to add 10 tetra/barbs at the same time, would this be too many?
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Play sand is still fine :)
You currently have 7 panda cories, 1 apisto male and shrimps. You are correct that it is important to add the whole shoal at the same time, but that would be more than doubling the bioload. However.....
Do you plan on live plants in the new tank? Even if you don't want plants rooted in the substrate, the fish you have and want appreciate cover over their heads so can I suggest you get some floating plants as soon as possible and once they start growing well, then get your new fish. Salvinia or water sprite or Amazon frogbit or water lettuce or even floating stems of elodea or hornwort will take up a lot of ammonia made by fish. I recently quarantined 12 kuhli loaches in a 25 litre tank with no mature media, just 2 bunches of elodea and 2 large water sprite plants from my main tank and saw no trace of ammonia or nitrite.
But be careful. You have shrimps. Since 2012 all plants imported from outside the EU have to be treated with snail killer and these kill shrimps too. Make sure any plants you buy are shrimp safe. Sites such as ProShrimp sell shrimp safe plants, as does k2aqua on Ebay. Read the small print ;)
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I've already got two java ferns, two anubias plants, three bunches (approx. 10 stalks each) of elodea and some amazon frogbit, along with about half a dozen moss balls from the 54L tank that I'm closing and replacing with this tank.
I'll look to get some more floating plants as I'm going to the LFS to get some more bits anyway. I'll make sure their plants are shrimp-friendly.
Good news on the play sand. I can get a 15kg bag from Argos for £5 which is more than I'll ever need!
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You are off to a good start with all those plants :) A few more floating plants will help - because they are on the surface they are near the lights and can get CO2 from the air so they are fast growing and can take up a lot of ammonia.
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So the cabinet is built (when I moved a couple of months back I swore I wouldn't touch flat pack furniture until 2021 at least... how wrong I was!) and in the living room. The tank's been given a quick wipe and is sat on top of it. I didn't get to the LFS yesterday, so I'll be braving the wind and the rain this morning for floating plants, backing paper, more wood and a cave. Then I can get on with everything this afternoon.
The tank came with a Fluval U3 internal filter. It's got three sections, two with sponges and carbon filters, and a middle section that holds the Fluval Biomax, and empty space for a "Clearmax" pad. I don't have one, but my current tank just has a sponge filter - if I can fit that into the gap for the Clearmax pad, with the Biomax chunks above it, similarly to the picture below, would this be good enough? Rather than running my old filter and the U3, could I just run the U3 in this way?
(https://azure.wgp-cdn.co.uk/app-practicalfishkeeping/gear/img-24.png)
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If you can get all the old media in there, that's fine. As you don't need the clearmax pad, using the space for the old sponge is perfect. I would leave it in there permanently.
You don't need the poly-carbon pads either. The carbon will get full and stop working - but you don't actually need carbon either. As you are just setting the tank up, I would replace the poly carbon pads with plain filter wool. They will get clogged and need replacing, but it is reasonably cheap to buy a length of filter wool from a fish shop/Amazon/Ebay and use one of the pads as a template to cut it to size.
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Thanks for the quick response Sue, I'll add filter wool to the shopping list!
Am I right in thinking that carbon's the one you add to draw medicines out of the water after a course of treatment?
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Yes it is. That's just about the only use for carbon. If you keep a couple of the pads in the cupboard so that should you need them they'll be there ready. (Don't forget to replace them if you ever do need to use them ;) )
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Something I forgot to mention.
Feed the fish less food than usual the day before the move, and nothing on move day. Again, feed less than usual for several days afterwards, then slowly increase back to the usual amount. Reducing the amount of food means less ammonia so the bacteria you will lose (tank walls etc) can increase without too much ammonia going into the water.
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Thanks for confirming on the carbon pads. I was able to get a big piece of filter wool, so I've added that in to the side compartments and squished my old filter sponge in with the Biomax in the middle compartment so that's sorted. I also picked up some kind of pinky-red plant (I could have sworn he called it a "salvinia", which is a plant name I recognise, but when I Googled to check, what comes up looks nothing like what I have so I have no idea now) and a few more pieces of Amazon Frogbit.
I had forgotten how long it takes to clean sand (and how tedious it is too), but it's in the tank, with decor and fih and heaters and so on. I've been feeding them less all week in anticipation, and no food today, I've also not bothered with the lights either. The sand is still settling, so I can onyl see a few bits at the front of the tank and the occasional cory darting around. I'll have a proper look in the morning and see just how bad a job I've done with positioning items!
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Reading your developments with interest. :cheers:
I can only be brief tonight but wondering if your red plant is a red 'ludwigia' ('w' pronounced like a 'v')? If not, can only think of some form of alternanthera, some of which end in 'ia' (eg 'rosaefolia')...
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I think it might be a lidwigia, but I've not seen the plant since it went in (the sand is still clearing and the lights are off) so I'll check it over in the morning when hopefully I can see inside!
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So the mystery plant is an alternanthera reineckii, for anyone keeping tabs! The water's still a bit cloudy, and the tank's a bit of a mess to be quite frank. I doubt the fish mind, but I'll leave it until next weekend when I do the water change to tidy up when the dust has cleared. The new bits of Amazon Frogbit I picked up yesterday have huge roots that look like tendrils, it's almost like having jellyfish floating around.
@Matt
I believe you have the Aquasky light in your 220L tank. What settings would you recommend? For now I've just played with the auto settings to try it out and set the following schedule:
Sunrise: 1430-1530 (default)
Day: 1530-1930 (70B/70R/70G/55W)
Sunset: 1930-2030 (default)
Night: 2030-2130 (10B)
Despite the reviews, I didn't find the app all that hard to use, but I'm well out of my depth in regard to what makes a good schedule for growing healthy plants. My old tank was just an LED strip light with two modes - on and off!
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The water's still a bit cloudy, and the tank's a bit of a mess to be quite frank.
When I added more sand to my tank, I put an extra small filter filled with filter wool in the tank which helped to clear the water. I had to replace the filter wool after 24 hours as it was so messy.
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When I added more sand to my tank, I put an extra small filter filled with filter wool in the tank which helped to clear the water. I had to replace the filter wool after 24 hours as it was so messy.
The cloudiness is clearing, but I will bear that in mind.
When I said the tank was a mess, I meant more my layout and positioning of decor. I'm not aquascaper, but even I know a state when I see one! The water was quite murky yesterday, and whilst I've got most things in the right position, there's a bit of tweaking to be done, to say the least!
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I do know what you mean. My tank was so cloudy I had to put things where I thought they should be - all of my plants at the time were either attached to decor or floating. When I could finally see into the tank I realised I had a sort of hill of sand in the middle of the tank and hardly any at the edges :o
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No sand mountains here, thankfully, but as the tank's up against the wall, I had intended to put the taller items at the back and around the corners, whilst spreading the shorter items around the front of the tank to create depth. Instead, I've effectively lined the edges and created a clearing in the middle, so I'll have to put that right!
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Sorry for not replying sooner regarding the lighting - I’ve not got the same version with you - my older version doesn’t come with the app etc so it’s on a simple ramp timer I have a half hour ramp up then a 8 hour lighting period and a half hour ramp down. For now given you may have algae issues as the tank settles in - I would leave the day length if you are comfortable with it, but it can definitely be extended in future. I would also delete night completely - I assume this is some blue light setting of some kind - this encourages algae. These settings give a low light amount in a restricted part of the spectrum. The algae can take advantage of this more easily than plants as it is a less complex organism and so you are basically giving the algae it’s own lighting period!!
Happy to help with your aquascaping should you wish...
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Thanks for the reply Matt. The night mode is just blue light, so I'll knock that on the head.
I've got got an hour-long sunrise/sunset either side of a 5 hour block with red/blue/green LEDs at 70 and white at 55. It provides light bright enough to see what's going on, without stressing the fish like higher brightness does. Will the plants do best with equal levels of R/B/G?
So I know this tank's only been running for days, but I've been checking amonnia/nitrite/nitrate and my readings haven't changed from what they were previously (0/0/40 - the tap water reads 40 for nitrate too). At what point will I see a change (if at all) and when does it become safe to start adding more fish?
I want to add the following:
3 panda corys
2 female cockatoo apistos
1 clown plec
10-12 small schooling fish
Can I add the corys, apistos and plec together, or is that too much additional bioload for the tank? If I have to do it in stages, how long do I need to leave between each stage? Should I hold off on adding the plec until the tank's more mature, or will it be fine if I toss in a bit of courgette or an algae wafer? I've got plenty of bits of wood in the tank already.
And does anyone have any particular favourites when it comes to schooling fish? I'd like to keep some fish that actually move around the tank together, rather than just scattering across the tank which is what happened with my first tank when I inherited a mix of neon and black tetras. Any ideas?
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To take the last point first, the usual definitions are:
shoaling - a species that lives in hundreds or even thousands in the wild, and must be kept in a group in an aquarium or they get stressed.
schooling - a shoaling species which swims in a co-ordinated manner.
Few freshwater shoaling fish are schooling fish. It is usually only seen when the fish are afraid. They move as one in an attempt to avoid being picked off by that predator as a single fish would. Once the fish settle in are are 'happy', they cease schooling as you have found.
The fish usually quoted as being the most likely to school is rummy nose tetras, but even they don't do it all the time.
Adding new fish - as a general rule of thumb, it is safe to add one third of the biomass of the fish already in the tank without overloading the bacteria. By biomass, I mean the volume of the fish. For example, one female apisto probably has the same biomass as 2 large or 3 small neon tetras.
As for how often they can be added, be guided by your readings. If ammonia & nitrite stay at zero you can add the next fish after a week. But if either show up, wait till they've both been zero for a week.
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Well the green leds are pretty pointless in many ways they plants will reflect green light but they will absorb the blue and red and they will enhance the colours of your fish too... turning the green leds off will likely make little visual difference anyway
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Matt - When I was first playing around, I found that the coloured LEDs didn't really have any visible effect unless I turned the white LEDs all the way down. If green doesn't do much then I'll turn it off and save some energy, I guess? Thanks!
Sue - My current stock of 7 panda corys and 1 apisto is 27cm according to the community creator here. That means I can add 9cm for now - 3 panda cories. That'd be 36cm, and a third again is 12cm - 2 apistogrammas. Then the plec, which puts me up to 46cm and as much biomass as possible before adding in the shoal.
I certainly don't want the fish living in fear, but it's a shame that there aren't any that are guaranteed to school together. I'm sure it'd make for quite a sight of they did! Going by the above, I've got three lots of fish to introduce ahead of the shoal, so I'll keep checking what the LFS has and making notes.
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Over the years I've had many different species of shoaling fish. I've not kept rummy noses, but I currently have espe's rasboras (in the fish profiles on here as slender harlequin) and these sort of school. It's the nearest I've ever had to schooling. Sometimes they swim as a group, at other times they split into smaller groups which swim together. I have 10 and it's common to see half a dozen or 3 or 4 of them swimming together. There are 3 closely related species - my espe's (Trigonostigma espei), hengel's rasboras (T. hengeli) and the slightly larger harlequins (T. heteromorpha). They should all behave similarly.
(espe's and hengel's have several common names usually something rabora eg lambchop rasbora, copper rasbora)
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I certainly don't want the fish living in fear, but it's a shame that there aren't any that are guaranteed to school together. I'm sure it'd make for quite a sight of they did! Going by the above, I've got three lots of fish to introduce ahead of the shoal, so I'll keep checking what the LFS has and making notes.
I completely agree with Sue's comments about shoaling fish. Littlefish has/had rummynoses, so she may be able to tell you more about her experiences. I bought harlequin rasboras 5.5 years ago, as I was very impressed with their shoaling behaviour each time I went to visit the LFS - however, that shoaling behaviour didn't last once they were settled in the tank, although there were only 6 of them. Matt has had embers recently, so he may be able to tell you if / how much they shoal(ed) and how many he had.
A word of advice - when I bought some espeis recently, my local PAH had espeis/hengelis/harlequins all in the one tank under the name of 'harlequin rasboras'; there were approx 80% harlequins and the remainder were espeis and hengelis. I had to explain / point out which were which so that the staff member could catch the ones I was looking for. It's worth familiarising yourself with the differences so that you can be on the lookout for this, if you were planning to get some.
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I have both rummynoses and embers - ember will group - but rummy’s swim as a group int he same direction - it is very different and a stronger behavioural trait than harlequins etc.
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So, update time. I've added the rummynose tetras to the tank. I'd been running it for a while, all the readings were good and after growing frustrated with the apistogrammas (more on that later), I took the plunge with a dozen tetras. One of them died a few days in, but the rest have been in the tank for just over a fortnight and seem very happy in the tank. They are schooling, and are very active, which does make headcount something of a nightmare.
The Amazon Frogbit I had died. Despite being in a new tank with new lights, it went the same way as the Frogbit I had tried to keep in my old tank before. I'm not sure where I'm going wrong with it, but the other plants are doing happily and growing towards the light, which I figure must be a good sign. The alternanthera especially, I swear it's almost doubled in height since I brought it home.
Now, the problem I have is with the apsitogrammas. I have a male apistogramma cacatuoides and have been waiting for the LFS to get in some more females, so that I can add two to the tank. I have two LFS (and a P@H, but we don't mention them) in reasonable distance, but only one stocks the cacatuoides. They've had two shipments since I made contact, both of which have been all male, so no luck there. Both shops carry other types of apistogramma, could I add females of another variety to the tank, or do they need to be cacatuoides to avoid fighting?
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Whilst you can add a female of another species and it shouldn’t cause fighting it probably won’t interact with the male as you might be hoping... it’s also possible that if you add a female of the same species that they will not get on and end up fighting tho... what are your goals?
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Well, I had a M/F pair before, but the female passed away, so I'm left with a male. Sue suggested adding two females when I upgraded to the larger tank, to keep him happy. I'm not trying to breed them.
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Sounds sensible to me - you would want the same species as your male I believe...
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I would definitely get the same species. There are named colour variations of cacatuoides and any would be good, it doesn't have to be the same colour variant, just the same species.