Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: Fishbeard on July 07, 2018, 11:27:20 AM
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While I wait another week or so to confirm my tank's bacteria are behaving themselves again, a trip to the LFS this morning has given me a list of fish to consider for my tank.
It's got a 60x30 footprint, with 54l capacity. I'm declaring 50l on the community creator, as I've got sand, some bogwood, some plants and some decorations in there that will cut that down a bit, along with an oversized internal filter.
My current tank has the following:
2 Honey Gouramis
6 Panda Corydoras
4 Amano Shrimp
1 male Betta
And whilst I can't add the male Betta to the CC, I've subbed in a female Betta just for sizing. It tells me I'm about 52% stocked for now.
My water is "moderately soft", measuring 3.02 dH, and the pH is about 7.5 now.
So far, my shopping list is just more amano shrimp. I think they're great and I love to see them hopping around, so I'll add another 4 to flesh out their numbers.
I previously had an extra Honey Gourami and 6 Neon Tetras, which is what I'm looking to replace. From reading the profiles here and on Seriously Fish, I see no reason to replace the gourami, which means I'm looking for a small shoal to add to the tank. The neons, despite having a great appearance, lacked personality and did almost nothing, they just floated around slowly, so I'd like to add something with a bit of personality. I would also prefer something that'll gather in the middle-to-top of the tank, as the corys and shrimp keep the bottom quite busy, but the rest of the tank looks a little empty in comparison.
I've seen a lot of nice fish at the LFS that look the right size, but most of the list I made appear to be unsuitable for one reason or another. I'd taken a shine to Serpae Tetras, but these fin nip, so I can't keep them with Princeton (and as I fear MTS to be a slippery slope, I'm strongly resisting putting the betta in a tank of his own), and I've also seen Odessa Barbs and Golden Barbs, but these both require a larger tank than mine once fully grown.
All that's left on my list are Cherry Barbs and Harlequin Rasboras. In the shop, they didn't seem to be all that interesting in terms of personality, but they were the right size and the CC here thinks 6 of either would be alright in my tank.
Does anyone have any recommendations? Are Cherry Barbs and Harlequins more interesting than I give them credit for, or will I find them a touch boring, like the neons I had previously?
Are there some slightly larger fish I could keep in a pair or trio, instead of a small shoal? Would I be better off adding to my Gouramis in this case?
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Is it your water company that says 3.02 dH is moderately soft? I always advise to ignore the words water companies use and just look at numbers. In fish keeping terms, 3.02 dH is pretty soft. My dH at 5 is still considered soft.
Your 54 litre tank sounds the same size as a tank I sold a couple of years ago so I can visualise your tank easily. I would not keep anything bigger than the the fish you have now in a tank this size.
You need to be very careful about new fish because of the betta. I know you didn't have problems with the neons but it is quite common for neons to nip the fins of bettas. [One option would be to get a 25-ish litre tank and move the betta in there]
Bettas and gouramis are quiet, sedate fish. They are pootlers rather than dashers. Tank mates need to quiet and sedate too; fish that dash around would stress quiet sedate fish.
For barbs, cherry barbs are reasonably sedate and non-nippy. Harlequins are well known for being sedate and non-nippy so both so species are OK. But both of those, like neons and most other shoaling fish, are 'less interesting'
Of these two species, I would go for harlequins as being less risky than cherry barbs. There are two other related fish as well - slender/lambchop/Espe's rasboras and copper/porkchop/Hengel's rasboras. http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/search/trigonostigma. All of these like plants over their heads. I have Espe's rasboras and until i got some floating plants they huddled in the back corner. Now I have a lot of floating plants, they are out everywhere.
So we need small shoaling fish that are sedate and non-nippy, which have a reasonable personality, and which need soft water.
One fish that does occur to me is the dwarf pencilfish, Nannostomus marginatus http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/nannostomus-marginatus/ It is their swimming behaviour that makes them interesting as they swim, then stop and hover for a while. If you could find any, the hockey stick pencilfish Nannostomus eques http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/Nannostomus-eques/ might be OK - their interesting point is the angle they swim at. But avoid golden pencilfish (aka beckfords pencilfish) as they can be nippy.
I'm sure other members will have their suggestions for other fish :)
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I can't really give any advice on soft water fish as I don't have any experience with them.
However, looking at what Sue has written, I'd agree with getting a smaller tank for the betta, as I'd expect a fuller tank containing a betta may be an accident waiting to happen.
I like the look of the dwarf pencilfish that Sue has posted the SF link for. They seem to have nice markings, and their swimming style will be a nice contrast to the fish you already have.
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My tank is exactly the same size as yours and my water a little softer than yours with a similar PH to you. I tend to put it in the CC as 47L and with an ordinary filter rather than oversized as there have been various discussions on here about extra filtering not really making a difference.
On that basis, I wouldn't add any more fish to your tank as it is. However, if you were to move the betta to his own tank as Sue suggests (and I think calling it "the betta tank" and this tank "the main/community tank", you may be able to curb any potential MTS in your head, as opposed to if you called them Tank 1 and Tank 2, for example), then I think more fish in the 54-litre would be an option.
I have harlequins and they occupy the upper half of the tank generally (whereas my x-ray tetras occupy the lower half generally); the colour patterning of the harlequins is of particular interest to me.
I'm also tempted by cherry barbs as a potential future fish, and, aside from their colouring, their advantage is that they scrounge all over the tank - however, as you have cories, that may not be a particular feature you'd be looking for. Fully-grown cherry barbs look quite large and chunky, though, and possibly too large for the tank size even although theoretically they're fine; from recollection, our CC mentions a smaller shoal number for cherry barbs as ok but more up-to-date advice on seriouslyfish.com suggests otherwise.
My own current thoughts are that it might be better to get more (eg 8-10) of a slightly smaller species such as ember tetra, the dwarf pencilfish which Sue suggests (if you can find them / get them ordered in and NB they are different from standard pencilfish or the coral red ones which need a larger tank), microdevario kubotai (yellow/green rasbora) or rasbora hengeli/espei (these are two separate species) rather than 6 cherry barbs (or 6 of a more standard tetra size or harlequin rasbora sized fish).
Hope that perspective helps.
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So, on the back of seemingly everyone's advice, I'm now seriously considering re-homing Princeton and getting a small tank for him. I've been running two filters in my tank, but if over-filtering doesn't really help (as @fcmf says) then I thought I could get a new tank, move one filter across and hey presto, I've got a full functioning filter with good bacteria all sorted, without needing to cycle. Obviously, I'll check the levels and make sure things are all fine before Princeton gets moved, but could it really be that simple?
At the same time, I've had a mooch on Amazon (should have checked in the LFS this morning, but I was still trying to curb myself) for 25l tanks and it seems like most have a built-in filter that would make moving one of my current filters a bit moot anyway. THings like the BiOrb Tube (https://www.amazon.co.uk/BiOrb-Black-Aquarium-Standard-Lighting/dp/B01MRBUFYW/ref=sr_1_5?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1530987052&sr=1-5&keywords=biorb+tube) or Flow (https://www.amazon.co.uk/biOrb-Aquarium-Litre-Black-Light/dp/B008EHRL80/ref=sr_1_10?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1530987035&sr=1-10&keywords=biorb), the Fluval Edge (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hagen-Fluval-Aquarium-Litre-Black/dp/B005WEDVIM/ref=pd_sbs_199_16?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B005WEDVIM&pd_rd_r=7136511c-8211-11e8-9d43-5169ffada23c&pd_rd_w=bCnIt&pd_rd_wg=p6EO6&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=5179604776422437276&pf_rd_r=RY2XNP2P544B8PBX3BXD&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=RY2XNP2P544B8PBX3BXD) or the APS Nano (https://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Pond-Solutions-Aquarium-Lights/dp/B01M68H1K0). Does anyone here have any experience of these tanks? Costs vary quite a bit, but more expense doesn't always mean a better tank and I'd rather get things right first time. As it's just going to house my betta (the CC suggests that he won't get on well with anything else), what sort of stuff should I put in the tank by way of substrate, decor, background paper?
With regard to the suggestions, pencilfish look interesting, though I've never seen them in a shop. The two rasboras have a nice shape and I especially like the copper one's colouring, so those are serious contendors for a small shoal in the main tank. I'll get Princeton rehomed and then think about what to add. There's a good place about 45 minutes away with a much larger stock of fish than my LFS, they even carry larger fish like Oscars and Green Terrors (my LFS doesn't even have tanks large enough for these), so I'll try to get over there this weekend or next and see what they carry.
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I am not keen on any of the biorbs (sphere, square, whatever) simply because of the undergravel filter system they use. And the sphere biorbs, like the Fluval Edge, have a small surface area which could make things difficult for a betta - the Edge has most of the water surface in contact with the top glass and the usually advice is to not fill it quite to the top so there is an air space under the top glass which makes it easier for a betta to breathe air.
The APS tank seems to have a trickle filter in the lid. These are OK except during a power cut when the media can dry out. They say it includes filter floss and coarse foam so it should be possible to use media from one of your current filters if you cut up some sponge to the same shape.
As for other tanks:
Aqua One Lifestyle 29. I know they say it's 29 litres but my betta's tank is an Aqua One AquaSpace which they called a 32 litre tank but actually holds 26 litres. Their LifeStyle has a trickle filter with a carbon cartridge (not needed) and a sponge so again some of your current media could be 'persuaded' to fit.
Aqua One AcquaVue 320 - trickle filter again, but this one has carbon and ceramic media though it can be replaced with your current filter's media.
Clearseal make basic 25 litre tanks (I have 2 spare ones) but when I say basic I mean nothing but the tank and lid. No filter, heater or even a light.
AquaEl Classic 40 would seem to have an internal filter which could be swapped for one of your current filters.
Maidenhead Aquatics AquaManta Nano 35 which has a filter in a separate compartment and would take media from one of your filters.
Eheim Aquasyle 35, a bit bigger at 35 litres. You could use one of your filters or the filter that comes with the tank filled with some of your media.
Just a few ideas :)
In a small tank you need to be careful that the filter flow is not too strong. The filter that came with my betta's tank would have flattened a betta against the far wall :-\
As for things inside the tank apart from heater & filter - either sand or gravel on the bottom; silk or real plants - plastic plants have sharp edges which can damage fins; smooth decor that has no sharp bits, or sand them smooth. As for backing, none of my bettas have ever had a backing simply because having one makes the glass into a mirror and they get all worked up flaring at their reflection. I've tried everything from plastic sheet ones with plant or rock patterns, matt black card which is supposed to stop reflections, even a sheet of A4 printer paper. But they all made the bettas flare so I've given up. They have to put up with the kitchen tiles a couple of inches behind the tank.
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I have one of these which I use for breeding pest snails for the dwarf puffers
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/cold-water-fish-tanks/pets-at-home-kids-aquarium-with-filter-24-litre?pageSize=45&orderBy=1
It doesn't have a heater, and may not be quite as stylish as the more expensive nano tanks, but it does the job.
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I bought one of these recently to use as a hospital tank:
https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/product/superfish-home-25-aquarium
Mr Helen said it was quite smart and suggested he wouldn't mind it being a more permanent installation! :o
It doesn't come with a heater though.
On the subject of fish I have had cherry barbs, harlequin and espe rasbora, cardinal tetras and Microdevario kubotai. I found the cherry barbs to live in the lower half of my tank. I have a soft spot for the rasboras and have restocked them a couple times over the last 6 years since I first got them. I currently have m. Kubotai and rather like the interest they add to my tank (but I fear they're not doing very well in my tank)
Good luck.
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That is a very attractive tank for a hospital tank @Helen .
I'm guessing your fish are more used to BUPA/private healthcare when poorly, rather than standard NHS. ;)
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@Helen How do you find your Microdevario kubotai look in your planted tank? I was always concerned that they would blend into the background too much... that said I'm keen to avoid purchasing yet another orange fish!...
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I was wondering exactly the same thing as Matt about the microdevario kubotai. Which area(s) of the tank do they occupy? Also, what are you finding with them that suggests that they aren't faring very well - are they inactive, disinterested in food or succumbing to illness/death?
Back to Fishbeard's tank, another factor which I'd forgotten to mention in connection with size of fish might be how interested you are in engaging with individual fish as opposed to the group as a whole. I (forgot that I) like interacting with them and thus 'larger' small species have that benefit (as do those whose eyes aren't 'hidden' in the patterning such as through a stripe or the colouring), whereas, if you don't mind not interacting with them individually and are happy to see the group as a whole, then the 'smaller' small species might be better.
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Ha ha ha about the tank @Littlefish . It is a very nice tank for a hospital tank and it may not stay that way forwever. I got it in a deal so it was the cheapest tank I could get by walking into the shop. The P@H ones in the store were snaller or more expensive on the day I was looking.
The m. Kubotai swim in the top third of the tank, except when the the surface feeders have eaten all there food and having a go at the bottom feeders' food. I imagine they would look stunning against a black background. They do blend in with the floating plants extremely well. So much so that its taken me ages to realise that they might not be doing very well. I think that because I pit 12 in and I can only count 4! I found one body on my extra pump (it looked like it had swam too close to the intake). So I took the pump out. The tank seems to be ok without it now. And I was watching the bottom feeders and realised that there was a poorly Looking Microdevario sitting on the cattapa leaf. It blended in really well on the sand and under the shade of the bolbitus. So it go me wondering if I've actually lost the fish I've failed to count and because they are so well camouflaged, I didn't find any bodies. It's also possible that they were too small to avoid the filter intake. I think I will try to get some more, but not until I've got an extra bit of filter foam to put in the filter intake. Because I really do think they look fabulous darting in and out of the plants. They are definitely a shoaling fish and I'd be tempted to get a bigger shoal next time.
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My pockets are now a bit lighter...
I made the trip out to the not-so-local LFS today, and picked up an AquaEl Leddy 40, which, despite the name, is a 25l tank. I've not seen much said about AquaEl on here, but my main taink is their Leddy 60 (which is 54l...) that I bought back when my old tank started leaking last year and I needed to take what the LFS had in stock and not just on order, but I think it's a fine tank - sturdy enough, simple shapes, easy to clean and so on. The real bonus is that both tanks use the same filter, so with two filters running in my main, I've moved one to the 25l tank and set the new filter up in its place in the main tank.
An hour or so spent cleaning black limpopo sand and adding decor then went and now the tank's filled, up to temperature and running happily, along with its new, permanent resident. I may change some of the decor around - for now I've nicked a few things from my main tank, but I think I'll be buying a few more moss balls if nothing else.
Anyway, I know the rules here - new tank, new photos, so have at them!I even managed to get a good photo of Princeton now that he's not got as much room to hide in.
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I was also looking around at the available fish to buy for the main tank. I've now got a list as long as my arm to work through on SF to determine what's suitable and what's not. When I've thinned it out, I'll likely be back on here for opinions, though I did see a few pencilfish (Beckfordi and Marginatus variants), along with Lambchop Rasboras, just to reference a few that had been mentioned already in this thread.
Oh, and while I know it goes against all fishkeeping sense, I did see an adorable Zebra Plecostomus that I couldn't refuse. It's a bit big for the tank, so I'll have to find it a more permanent home somewhere safe...
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Great tank, and it's lovely to see than Princeton has settled in well.
Also loving your new zebra plec.
Keep up the good work. :cheers:
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Princeton will spend a few days exploring his new tank, but he should love having 25 litres all to himself. I've only ever kept nerite snails with mine, so I know those are OK as tank mates.
Is the tank called 40 because it's 40 cm long?
Gorgeous plec!
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Great pics - and great plec too... ;D
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Is the tank called 40 because it's 40 cm long?
That's my thinking too. It's 40x25x25, I think, and the Leddy 60 is 60x30x30, so it's going on the length of the tank. Not a useless figure, but when so many other manufacturers are putting the capicity into the tank name, it's a bit misleading.
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So I've whittled down my list, and my options are below, along with my thoughts. Some of you will know better, so please go ahead and tell me if I'm wrong. I've checked the profiles here, and on Seriously Fish, and run all the numbers through the Community Creator on here to check stocking numbers.
* Pencilfish Marginatus - I saw Pencilfish Beckfordi, too, but Sue advised that these were nippers and I'm led to believe nippers might target my gouramis, so I'm ruling out the Beckfordi on those grounds. From appearance, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between the two types in the shop, and I honestly wasn't too impressed by them. SF also advises a shoal of 10+ and the CC tells me I don't even come close to that. 6 is about the most I could handle, so I don't think these are all that viable.
* Harlequin Rasbora & Lambchop Rasbora - SF recommends 8-10 in a shoal, and the CC here tells me I can fit in 8 without going right to the limits of my stocking capacity. My only concern here is that my water has a pH of about 7.5 and the profiles suggest a top end of 7 for pH, how much difference does this make? Is it enough to rule these out in good conscience?
* Cherry Barb - I saw these in two different shops and they seemed to have a bit more "life" to them than the various tetras. The CC tells me I can only sensibly keep a shoal of 6, which SF has as the minimum shoal quantity. The bright red colour of the adults would be a nice contrast with my yellow Honey Gouramis.
* Threadfin Rainbowfish - These have a very interesting shape! I like that the males "present", so a nice mixed sex group could be good for my tank. I can fit in 6 without pushing my stocking too high, so 2M/4F perhaps, or would I be better off with an even split? The CC on here mentions that I need planted areas for these, but just what does that entail? I'm no gardener, and the plants I have are a small bit of java fern growing on some driftwood that I bought and a few moss balls. I've got a number of silk plants, but are these sufficient, or would I need more real plants for the Threadfins?
* More Honey Gouramis - The shock option? I've already got 2 and another 4 would be comfortable stocking, to give me a group of 6, while SF encourages keeping about 6 to form a heirarchy. To give the females a break, I'm thinking 2M/4F, but would the beta male be pushed out completely in this situation? The two I have already are yellow honeys, if I was to buy natural or red honeys, would they form a group together, or should I stick to the yellow variant?
So, those are the options. As ever, all and any advice is always appreciated.
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Before I say anything I just have to remind you that I don't have any experience with any of these fish.
Saying that, I'd be tempted to go for more honey gouramis, so that you have the size of group suggested by SF, and to encourage more natural interactions. I can't answer your last questions about variants, but I'm sure that some of the more experienced forum users will be able to.
I think that the threadfin rainbowfish are beautiful, but I'd still go with increasing gourami numbers.
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I have espei's rasboras in pH 7.5. Hardness is more important than pH - if your hardness is within a species' range, it is OK for the pH to be slightly outside.
Honey gouramis - in your sized tank I'd go for just 1 male. Honeys are peaceful for gouramis but I don't think your tank is big enough for 2 male territories. A group of 5 females can be any colour. Natural coloured females are silvery beige with a brown stripe from nose to tail. Red honey gouramis are the hardest colour to tell the gender, you have to go by fin size and shape and keep your fingers crossed.
Featherfin rainbows - these were on my shortlist when I was restocking my tank a few years ago. One reason I didn't get them was the few shops that stocked them had only males. If you can find one that stocks females, they are lovely fish.
Cherry barbs - 2 m 4 f. Males are a lot brighter red than females. They feed off the bottom of the tank as well as mid water so do help clear up uneaten food that makes it to the tank bottom :)
I know you like the red contrast with your yellow honey gouramis but did you know there's also an albino form? Orange male, yellow female, both with red eyes. I bought some from Maidenhead Aquatics once (the only place I've ever seen them was the MA in the garden centre that burned down a few months ago, though other branches should be able to get them)
I know this doesn't help you make your decision but hopefully give you some pointers to help the process :)
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I echo Sue's comments on the harlequin rasboras. My PH is similar to yours, even slightly higher at times. Of the 3 shoals of tropicals I've had, the harlequins have done the best - all 6 are aged 3+ and still looking as healthy as when I bought them (touchwood!).
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My experience of cherry barbs was that the females had very little red in them - in my planted tank the females looked brown. And I would describe them as inhabitants of the bottom half of the tank water (free swimming low down rather than on the substrate)
One thing to note is that harlequin rasboras are slightly larger than espei's, so you might be about to get 1 or 2 more in your shoal if you go with espei's.
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Thanks @Helen, that sounds like it's turning me off of the Cherry Barbs. I've got shrimp and Corys, so there's plenty going on in the bottom of the tank, I'd rather have fish at the top.
When I was playing around with the CC last night, I don't think it distinguished between the Harlequins and the Espeis, despite the Espei being called a "Slender" Rasbora on some sites.
So I'm down to three - Espeis, Threadfins and more Honey Gouramis. I honestly didn't check the gender of the Threadfins (or anything else, bar noseying at the Bettas), so this is something to consider.
Perhaps it's because I'm still a bit naive towards fishkeeping, but the Gouramis feel like the safe/boring/practical option and I can't help wanting something a bit different/fancier. The Threadfins certainly fit that bill.
Whilst I know LittleFish has endorsed getting more Gouramis, it doesn't seem like there's an inherently "best" answer here from the other comments. I'm planning to go back out over the weekend to pick up some new friends, so I think I'll take a look at what's there on the day (now that I've done some research and thinned out my list) and go with whichever of the three grabs me the most.
Thanks for all of your input, though. After my various misadventures, it feels good to be going about it in the right way..
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Perhaps it's because I'm still a bit naive towards fishkeeping, but the Gouramis feel like the safe/boring/practical option
Yes, I suggested gouramis because they would be the "safer" option, but remember that I don't have any experience with these fish, and the other do.
If it was going on looks I'd go with the threadfin rainbows, as they have a nice shape and are quite unusual (even though I have a massive soft spot for rasbora)
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There are two tropical fish shops about 25 and 30 minutes away from me now. Both have good stocks of fish, one is slightly cheaper, but has very little except fish (hardly any tanks, decor, food etc.) and the other's got everything, including turtles, axolotls, koi carp, water features and the rest, but costs a bit more.
So I went to the more expensive one first, because they carried all three of the threadfins, rasbors and gouramis, while the other didn't carry threadfins. I also wanted to get a "cave" for Princeton and some more decor in general, as I stole from the main tank to set up his 25l last week. So I've got a few more moss balls, split between the two tanks, some silks and a cave for Princeton, another silk and some more java fern on a piece of bogwood for the main tank. I can't grow plants for the life of me, and I've killed all the "easy" floating plants I've tried too, but I did buy java fern on a piece of driftwood before that's survived in my main tank, despite my best efforts, so I figured I'd try another piece.
Looking around, I wasn't taken by the rasboras on second look, and they had no threadfins left. This is actually the same shop my two current gourami came from, so I picked up four females (two yellow, two red) along with the non-fish.
They had no Japonica shrimp today, just crystal red,so then I stopped at the other shop on the way home and picked up four more there. Oddly enough, this shop didn't have any coloured gourami in today, just the natural ones, and most of them looked to be male. Had I come to this place first and called it a day, I would have ended up with the espeis instead...
Everyone's been acclimatised throughout the afternoon and it's bloodworms for tea!
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Sounds like you've had a productive day! (Isn't it interesting, though, how the order of visiting a shop plus other factors can result in different purchases than otherwise might have been the case.) Hope everyone is very happy in their new home and existing and new stock all get on swimmingly.
:fishy1:
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Congratulations on your new arrivals.
I hope that they have settled into their tank and have enjoyed their tea. :)