Ideas For 'specimen' Fish

Hi helen

what is the height of your tank? Idealy it needs to be 2foot deep for angels and discus, my adult angels are currently around 15cm from top to bottom and are about a year old. They should be fine with cardinals as they generaly get to big for angels to eat, not sure about the harlies. The discus seem to be a lot less aggresive to other tank mates than the angels and im keeping mine with little licorice gouramis.

however if you get juvenile angels and add them last then they can be okay as they grow up with the smaller fish but its not 100% guarenteed. Also if you want a pair of angels then its best to get a group of 6 and let them pair, angels in numbers smaller than this as they grow will pic at each other and in a group of six there is enough to even out the aggresion. Also if you do this be prepared to quickly remove the rest when you get a pair, as the pair will attack the others. This applies to the discus too but im not sure how they will be if a pair forms havnt got that far yet. Im not finding it to difficult with he discus but they dont seem to like nitrates above 20 and so water changes are a must although i havehad to increse from the 20% to 40% a week on there tank. This is more to do with the sheer amount they eat and how messy they are i still havnt seen the need to go to the extremes a lot of keeper do.

Also a breeding pair of angels will be aggresive when spawning but its not to bad cause they only tend to defend there spawning site, no worse than any other breeding pair.

Have you looked at apistogrammas there are some very nice species and some of the males can get to a nice size. I have apistogramma noberti breeding at the moment and i no sue has some nice species too. You can buy them in pairs or trios and there not massivly aggresive when spawning. Set them up with a cave at one end of your tank and they should be fine. There good to watch.

Another possibilty could be a male and two female pearl gouramis. Until the comunity creater is back up you could try aqadviser its a similar calculator.

Yep sorry discus need a temp 28 or above but it also means blue rams could do well if the water is soft enough. Discus dont neccesarily need soft water it depends on what water the breeder keeps them in.

Having gravel would be something to think about for apistos and rams. I had small smooth gravel in my tank when I first got a pair of bolivian rams, and the female got a piece stuck in her throat, something I'd not even thought about until it happened. Though I'd not had the problem with apistos. After the incident with the female ram, I changed to sand which I now have in all my tanks. The rams (until they died) and the apistos take mouthfuls of that and sift it for food, with the sand coming out of their gills. Since seeing that, I assume it's a natural instinct of these fish, and the female ram tried it unsuccessfully with gravel.

I'm not sure putting a finer substrate over the gravel would work - I think it would sink to the bottom - someone correct me if I have it the wrong way round  But if your gravel is too big to fit in a fish's mouth it wouldn't be a problem. To give you an idea, look at the pic (click on it to make it bigger). The gravel on the left is what I had when I first got fish, the smaller gravel on the right is what the rams got stuck. If your gravel is bigger than that you should be OK.

Sue, I remembered something about one of your fish getting gravel stuck in her mouth, but not what fish it was. 

And I thought about whether sand or small gravel would sink to the bottom. I already have different sizes of gravel in my tank, Eco-complete substrate on the bottom at the edges with a medium sized pea gravel over the top and a small pea gravel in the centre front of the tank. This is quite "ish" as it all got mixed up a bit when I had to change the tank.

I was discussing the various changes that each of the different fish would require with my OH. He's suggested that with all the plants in my tank, changing the substrate, even just reducing the level would be quite challenging and require almost starting from scratch as it would disturb the plants so much. (I think he's also keen on angels). I was wondering how often people with planted tanks replace their substrate, and whether this is the mammoth task it seems to be. I found an article on James' planted tank on a substrate change he did. Sounded very organised, but a big task.

I got some more harlies yesterday and was discussing angels with the lad in the shop. He suggested that they don't need a particularly deep tank, as long as they have space to swim around, and my 240l tank should provide that. Any thoughts?

He also suggested an alternative to Don's suggestion of getting half a dozen juveniles, letting a pair form and selling on the rest. Which is to get and keep 3 fish. How much of a good idea would this be?

I have to admit to some concern about Don's suggestion. As I am currently 6 months pregnant, I don't want to have worry about having to quickly re-home 'teenage' angel fish when I also have a baby to look after! And I don't think it is realistic to be looking at additional tanks at the moment! I've already been told off by my Mum once for buying more fish instead of baby things! (I've not told her about the new harlies!)

One of the comments the lad in the fish shop made when I asked about discus, apart from them needing warmer water to thrive, was that they go well with cardinals. Which got me to wondering about the top of the temperature ranges for my existing fish. Another topic for research!  Sue briefly mentioned this below.

Oh, and the harlies are slightly bigger than the cardinal tetras when fully grown, so if the latter are safe from being eaten by angels then the harlies should be too.

So much research to do and I've still not looked at the alternative gourami suggestions yet. 

Do you mean three angelfish? That's not usually recommended. Angelfish are incredibly hard to sex unless they are in the middle of spawning, and if you ended up with a 2:1 mix and two paired up, the third would be badly bullied so you'd have to rehome it quickly. That's the theory behing getting a mated pair or a minimum of six.
Not only are harlies a bit bigger, they are deeper bodied than cardinals, therefore harder to eat. It's pencil shaped fish like neons that fit in angels' mouths best. Those tetras etc that are tall and flat (ie sort of angel shaped) are usually fine with angels




If you didn't mind rehoming some of your fish, including the new harlies, there are a few fish that can be kept with discus. Cardinals can cope with the higher temps, as can rams, the non-bolivian ones (blue, gold, german blue, balloon etc), sterbai cories (only sterbais, the others all need lower temps). You'd need to research carefully for fish that are happy at 28 to 30 deg C.

Thank  you again.

Don't worry about putting me off, finding out about other people's experiences with certain species of fish is all part of my research. Although I like angels to look at, I also like the composition of my tank and don't want to put the wrong fish in it and destroy everything.

I was a bit suspicious of the '3 angelfish' theory, which is why I asked the question. Nice to know that I am learning something, and my suspicions weren't mis-placed. 

I don't fancy re-homing the majority of my fish, so I think discus are definitely out for this tank. Perhaps in the future when I get my second tank... 

My tank is a 4ft and pretty well planted. I keep meaning to take a picture to upload.

That was another question that I meant to ask, about the size. I've read lots that angel fish typically grow to 15cm. What is this a measurement of? I think it is body length, but does it include the tail or the caudal pedunkle (I love that word, so just had to find a way to use it!) 

Btw, I had a look at the aqadvisor site. When I put my current fish stock in, it said I was 81% stocked, but that I was 85% filtration and that I needed to add more filtration. Does anyone understand this filtration figure?

Thanks Chucklett.  Fish keeping and morning sickness combined with not being able to lift heavy things are not terribly compatible. Hence why my tank is currently be re-stocked after a few months of neglect.  All seems well now, as my husband and I have got into a collaborative water change routine - assisted by the turn based computer game he can stop playing at any point!

Thanks sue didnt realise this. I was using it until the cc was back. Apparently it takes the output lph of your filter and calculates 60% of it as they are always over estimated and calculates filter % based on fish you have added and tank size.

I always asumed it was a measurment from the mouth to the caudaul penduncle. Because i have seen and owned some very tall angels. with a body of about 15cm m to cp.

That a lovely looking tank helen. id call that heavily planted

the density of the plants looks to give lots of hiding places i think a group of six angels would look lovely in there. The hight may be fine i think with that tank id take a chance and see how it progresses.

Angel fish can live for 10-15 years, they gain sexual maturity at about 6 months. They are very fast growing to start with and will go from small 2-5cm in the body to 8-10cm in the first 6 months. they then slow down and get gradually bigger up to 15cm in the body. so plenty of time to decide if you needed a second deeper tank 

Have put a couple more pics of my male in the gallery

Im sorry  . I have a love hate relationship with them. There stunning fish and have great personality, but they are typical cichlids. I still stand by there definetly not a comunity fish as they are often advertised. If you except what they are and what they need they they are very rewarding. there just a pain in the bum.