Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: Alex_N on August 24, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
-
I've started to look at fish in more detail for my tank. I've had idea after idea and all been shunned for one reason or another. I've settled on a Gourami for the main attraction, as it were. I've a 120L tank so the plan was 1 male Gourami and 2/3 females, hopefully they'll breed given time. I also wanted something to shoal but been advised away from Tetras. Does anyone have any ideas on what else I could have to shoal? I was put off from Tiger Barbs with their tendency to be a bit aggressive but they are looking like a strong contender.
-
Why were you put off Tetras?
FWIW I have 12 Tiger Barbs (6 standard and 6 Green/Blue) and they don't bother the other fish. They live up to their reputation if you don't have a large enough shoal.
I also have 12 Cardinal Tetras.
When I only had the 6 standard Tiger Barbs they did harrass the Cardinals a bit for the first few days after they were introduced.
I'm really pleased I chose the Tiger Barbs for my community, they're so active and interesting to watch, and very attractive too.
-
Which gourami species did you have in mind?
I have had honey gouramis for many years and kept them with neon tetras, green neon tetras, cardinal tetras, Microdevario, ember tetras, dwarf pencilfish, golden (Beckford's) pencilfish, fire tetra (Hyphessobrycon georgettae), white clouds..... Not all at the same time :)
Most small tetras are fine with honey or dwarf gouramis. They don't tend to be among the nippy or hyperactive species. With larger gouramis (pearl, the various colours of three spot) you can't keep very small tetras or they could end up on the dinner menu. But again, just avoid the obvious fin nippers and over active fish - it's the activity of my emperors that stops me having gouramis now.
-
I'm thinking of going for the Pearl or Three Spot Gourami
The reason that Sue has said. I was even stirred away from Penguins and Rummy Tetras which I thought would be fine
From more reading and what I've seen in my lfs the Tiger's do seem interesting characters.
Is there anything else other than barbs that shoal? I keep going round in circles and making no ground at all.
-
If you get tiger barbs you are quite restricted as to what you can keep with them. Unless you have 12+, they can be very nippy. I wouldn't risk gouramis of any description with them.
There are two terms that get mixed up, shoaling and schooling.
Shoaling means any species that needs to live in a group of it's own kind.
Schooling is a group of fish of the same species that like to swim round in tight formation.
Shoaling fish need to be in groups as they have evolved that way. If there aren't enough of them, their instincts tell them that something has eaten the rest of the shoal so they need to be on constant look out for the predator. This stresses the fish and can lead to abnormal behaviour, sickness and death.
Schooling is a defence mechanism of shoaling fish. They do it to confuse the predator. If they feel safe, very few species will school in an aquarium. The vast majority of shoaling fish don't school in our tanks, they swim all over the place separately. They only come together as a group when they feel frightened eg the first few times you clean the tank. Then they get used to that and carry on as normal - separately.
There area few species that are said to school more readily than most, and I've seen rummy noses on that list. I once had some serpae tetras for a few days. They swam round the tank in tight V formation. I only had them a few days as by then every other fish in the tank had bits missing. I now know they are notorious fin nippers, rivalling tiger barbs for that.
When you ask if there are any species other than tiger barbs that shoal, do you mean school, ie swimming round as a group? Because as far as I'm aware, tigers don't school unless terrified.
There is a more mild mannered substitute for tigers - the similar looking five band or pentazona barb. That is in the profiles on here but for some reason it appears to be missing from Seriously Fish.
But tiger barbs are on SF it is relatively boisterous and does not make an ideal companion for timid, slow-moving, or long-finned species such as many livebearers, cichlids, and anabantoids.
Gouramis of all species are timid, slow moving and long finned.
-
Oh ok, I thought schooling and shoaling were the same kinda thing. Shoaling was what I meant.
I was planning on having 12+ a long with the Gourami, I've been using the calculator to stock at 100L as I don't want the tank to look too cramped.
Would the 5 stripe be able to 'hold it's own' if the male Gourami became territorial whilst guarding the nest? Hence favouring the Tiger at the minute.
-
I have add that tiger barbs and certain other species are a special case. These species have a hierarchy within the shoal. Each fish knows its place. The fish at the top keep the lower ones in place by chasing and nipping them; the lower ones challenge the higher ones by nipping and chasing.
Provided there are enough of them in an aquarium, this nipping is kept within the shoal. When there are too few of them, they regard all the other fish in the tank as part of the shoal, and nip them too. This is when the problems start.
Six of the same species is generally regarded as the minimum number for fish to feel safe. But tiger barbs need more than that for their hierarchy. This is why at least 10, and preferably at least 12, is recommended.
As regards shoaling fish, all tetras and just about all barbs are shoaling fish. As are rasboras, pencilfish and so on.
I still wouldn't have tigers with a gouramis. The five bands should be fine with them.
If you want orange fish, how about harelquins? They do have one advantage that they are from the same area as pearl gouramis and almost the same as three spots.
And on the subject of gouramis, pearls are reputed to be less aggressive than three spots.
-
I don't particularly want orange as a colour within the tank, just something that shoals, peaceful and won't become a Gourami snack.
My plan is to have a good sized shoal along with a larger main attraction of two or three depending on the breed, with a hand full of bottom feeders when the tank is more established.
-
Even when kept in a group of 12 or more Tiger Barbs will find long trailing fins and tails irresistible, and they will almost certainly nip them.
If you're not looking for a Tiger Barb lookalike, how about the Celestial Pearl Danio (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/celestial-pearl-danio.html)?
-
Ah, if you don't mind the colour, almost any shoaling fish except tiger barbs and serpae tetras would be fine. Maybe avoid emperor tetras as well as I have those and can vouch for their hyper active swimming which would stress gouramis.
In other words, almost all the fish in the barb, tetra and rasbora sections of the fish profiles that are around the 5 to 6cm mark, except for those two species mentioned. Provided they fit the parameters of your tap water.
Exteme_One - if he wants pearl or three spot gouramis, I think cpds would end up as lunch or chased as lunch at the very least :(
-
Exteme_One - if he wants pearl or three spot gouramis, I think cpds would end up as lunch :(
Ahh sorry, must confess I'm not familiar with the Gouramis. I'll edit my post.
-
Whenever I tried to put pearl gouramis in the community creator it came up with a warning that they were too big to mix with ember tetras, neon tetras etc. That's why it stuck in my mind. And why I always kept honey gouramis :)
-
I've been getting the same thing, it's been really frustrating. Why can't they all just get along nice and happy lol
I must admit the more this discussion has gone on I am wavering towards Dwarf or Honey Gourami now.
-
I'd waver towards honeys. Dwarfs are often infected with the incurable DGIV (dwarf gourami iridovirus) and can just drop dead within a few months.
You can keep any fish with honeys up to the same size as them. That leaves you a huge choice :)
-
See what I mean by one way or another an idea gets shunned lol
Honeys it is then. What would be an ideal male to female ratio? I'm thinking of 1 male and 2 females, or would another couple of females be better?
-
I have kept these fish as a m/f pair and as a 1m/2f trio. A 1m/3f quartet would also be OK.
Honey gouramis come in three colours. Wild coloured (the ones in the fish profile on here) are the easiest to sex - male golden tan, female beige. Yellows are the next easiest; reds are the hardest.
Wild ones are the least common in shops. They will be quite stressed in the shop so the males won't show the black throat as in the photo on here, and may also be quite pale. Females will be the ones with a darker stripe down their sides so with this colour choose a male from the fish that don't have a stripe and do show a bit of yellow in the dorsal fin (the one on the back). Choose females from those fish with the darkest stripe.
Yellow ones often have an orangey tail. Males have more orange than females, and females tend to have a bit of a stripe like the wild coloured ones but not as heavy. Choose the one with the most orange for a male and the ones with the most stripe for female.
With reds, you have to go by fin shape and keep your fingers crossed. Males have longer, pointier dorsal and anal fins (the two fins that project backwards towards the tail)
I am very partial to honey gouramis :) Unlike a lot of gouramis, the male does not kill the female with stress if he want to mate and she doesn't. He will nip at her tail but that heals quickly.
-
Not wanting to add confusion but, out of interest, what would your views be on sparkling gouramis as a possibility for Alex's tank, Sue (or indeed anyone who's ever kept sparkling gouramis)?
-
They would be fine for his tank, the only downside is that they aren't exactly centrepiece fish because of their size. I had them once, quite a few years ago now, and they were lovely little fish. You could hear the males croak from across the room ;D
-
Oh c'mon!
I had just about settled with a few possibilities and then you tell me the Sparkling males croak!
:isay:
lol
-
I read that Pearl gourami's are peaceful why does the community fish calculator say it is not recommended with smaller fish etc.
-
The main reason is that large fish tend to see small fish as food. Even if the small fish is too big to actually eat, it still triggers the big fish into chasing the small fish, and being chased all the time stresses the small fish. Pearl gouramis are peaceful in that they don't go round attacking other fish like three spot gouramis can, it's just that they can regard small fish as potential dinner.