Changing PH In Tanks

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Offline Littlefish

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Changing pH in tanks
« on: November 03, 2016, 06:24:01 PM »
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Towards the end of my thread about my unwell tigers barbs I noted that the pH in my tanks was higher than that from the tap. I left dechlorinated tap water and plain tap water overnight and tested the ph, which again wasn't as high as in the tanks. In an effort to investigate this issue, and as I had a spare 70L tank hanging around, I decided to add dechlorinated water in the tank, plus a filter, leave it running and test the water. The idea being that I would add various items from my other tanks to work out what was causing the pH change.
The tank was set up last Friday. There is nothing in it apart from the water and filter, and the lights go on every evening, the same as with the other tanks.
Dechlorinated water going into the tank was 7.4.
I've just tested the water in the tank and it is reading 8.2 using the API master test kit.
 ???
Any ideas?

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 06:39:18 PM »
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Curious.

Since pH is a measure of the amount of hydrogen ions, the only way pH can increase is by something removing hydrogen ions from the water. For example, if something basic is added it will react with the hydrogen ions removing them from the water. Conversely if something acidic is put in the tank, it increases the number of hydrogen ions so the pH falls. (One definition of an acid is something that donates hydrogen ions).

The first question to ask is - which dechlorinator do you use? They all contain chemicals to remove chlorine and heavy metals but most contain other additives as well. For example aloe vera, other chemicals to 'promote slime coats', chemicals to detoxify ammonia etc. Most of them have data sheets on line, the main exception being Seachem Prime as the company won't say what's in it as it's a trade secret.



I have another test for you.
Take two identical containers (mugs will do nicely  :) ) . Put plain tap water in one and dechlorinated tap water in the other and leave them to stand side by side. Measure the pH of both straight away, after 24 hours and after 7 days.
This should flag up if it is the dechlorinator.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 06:48:31 PM »
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I use Tetra Aquasafe as my dechlorinator. I know it's got lots of other things in it, but it's one of the ones suitable for axolotls, so I've tended to use it for everything rather than buy different types.
I'll set up the tap water/dechlorinator experiment and update you on the results.

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 06:56:36 PM »
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If this test proves nothing (both sets of results the same) I'll ring the son who worked for a water testing company see if he has any ideas.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 07:06:59 PM »
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Both are 7.4 at the moment.

I appreciate your help Sue.
I don't want to be killing stressed fish by shocking them with a change of pH when doing water changes.

Does oxygenation impact pH? Just wondering as some of my tanks have substantial water movement and/or an airstone, and the one I've just tested (dechlorinated water & filter) has a lot of surface water movement.

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2016, 07:44:12 PM »
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Indirectly, yes. As well as taking oxygen into the water carbon dioxide leaves the water.


Carbon dioxide dissolves in water to form carbonic acid.

CO2 + H20 -> H2CO3

This is a weak acid, which has a particular meaning in chemistry. A weak acid is one that does not dissociate into its ions to any great extent, compared to a strong acid which exists almost exclusively in its ions.

But carbonic acid does dissociate to a small extent, changing to hydrogen ions and carbonate ions.

H2CO3 <-> 2H+ + CO32-

These hydrogen ions lower the pH but not to the extent a strong acid would. But remove the carbon dioxide from the water and the first equation is reversed. With fewer carbonic acid molecules to dissociate, the fewer hydrogen ions that are in the water.

So, if your water flow and bubblers drive off carbon dioxide, there is less carbonic acid therefore less hydrogen ions in the water, therefore the pH is not as low.





I should also add that plants have an effect on pH. They take up carbon dioxide for photosynthesis and also make it by respiration. During the day they take in more than they make so there is less carbon dioxide in the water. During the dark plants do not photosynthesise but they do respire. They make carbon dioxide so there is more in the water during darkness. pH rises slightly during the day and falls at night, though the effect is not huge and depends on just how heavily planted the tank is.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2016, 08:37:10 PM »
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Great information & explanation @Sue and it also explains why the tank with no plants is showing the highest pH I've seen in any of my tanks, and my plant tanks (for just storing plants whilst waiting for new tanks to arrive) have lower pH. I wouldn't say that any of my tanks are particularly heavily planted, perhaps that's something I might have to consider.
I'll be testing the rest of my tanks tomorrow.  :)

Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2016, 09:04:03 PM »
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My small tank does this too, and it made me scratch my head and get worried about pH shock during water changes as well.
Initially I put it down to the soft water lacking buffering capacity. So for a long time I added Sodium Bicarbonate to my water conditioning dustbin and raised the KH a couple of dKH. However I must say, it didn't seem to make any difference to the fish - they seems to be completely unaffected by the pH changes, but it made me feel better.
My tank meanwhile became progressively fully planted so I then decided to build a yeast generator and started injecting CO2, and in this case it has the added benefit of lowering the pH back down to almost natural levels and the plants love it as well.
I have stuck with this solution, stopped the buffering and everybody seems to be happy with pH swings now at -0.2pH after a big water change.
If you would like I will make you a yeast CO2 regulator and you will be able control the generation rate and switch the CO2 off at night.

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2016, 09:03:28 AM »
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I realised after I'd turned my laptop off for the night that I had omitted to say how carbon dioxide gets into the water in the first place - it's by the fish etc respiring. Animals just make CO2, but plants both make it and remove it.

And with a heavily planted tank, the time of day the pH is tested makes a difference. In this case it will always be highest when the tank lights are on and lowest when both tank and room lights are off (if you feel like sneaking in for a water sample in a dark room  ;D )

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2016, 01:00:33 PM »
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Thanks for the information and offer @Andy the minion  I have so many tanks the thought of regulating CO2 in all of them is a bit intimidating. As you've mentioned that your fish don't seem to be bothered by the changes that puts my mind at rest a little.

As for sneaking into a dark room to get a sample @Sue I have done stranger things in the line of dealing with pet stuff, so I'm not ruling it out.

If it is just respiration related, and as my water hardness isn't changing, I think I'll just look into the different between tap water and dechlorinated water, perhaps also test the tanks I'm storing the plants in (would constitute heavily planted) and go from there. If it means that I have to put more plants in the tanks then I'm more than happy with that.  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2016, 02:01:02 PM »
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Another point I didn't mention is that if you add CO2 to the tank, that will alter the pH as well. Lightly planted tanks and those with low tech plants don't need added CO2 as the fish provide all the plants need. It is heavily planted high tech tanks that need additional CO2.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2016, 02:13:32 PM »
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My tanks were specifically planted as low tech so I didn't have to add CO2, especially as I'm still quite new to live plants.
My plant storage tanks are in the hallway, so I might test for pH this evening after the lights have been on for several hours, then again first thing in the morning, when the tank has been dark overnight, just out of curiosity.
Perhaps I'm worried about nothing, and the fish are fine in teh planted tanks. Perhaps the problems I had with the tiger barbs are just a coincidence.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2016, 05:34:37 PM »
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Just checked some pH levels.
8.4 in the tank with just dechlorinated water & running a filter, which tested at 8.2 3 days ago.
8.2 for the glass of dechlorinated water sitting there for 48 hours
8.4 for the glass of tap water @ 48 hours
8.4 for one of the plant storade tanks - running with filter, plants in pots, lights have been on for approx. 6 hours.
8.0 for the puffer tank, lights have been on for approx. 4 hours.
I have turned the light off in the plant storage tank and covered it with towels, and will take another sample to test later.
I have no idea what is happening.  ???  :))

I am going to be putting more planys in the dwarf puffer tank over the next few weeks, and some more bits of wood, etc. for them to explore, so I will probably have to go down the route of adding liquid CO2 at some point to help. I'll be interested to see what happens to the pH then.

I've also just read some information on banana leaves, mulberry leaves and catappa leaves being used in tanks. I'd heard of catappa leaves, but not the others (I mean, I was aware that the plants had leaves  :P , but not that they were dried and used in tanks). They say that they can lower pH, and that the mulberry leaves are a good source of foor for shrimp - might be useful for info for @pandaman . They say the banana leaves have similar properties to the catappa, so I was wondering if it would be worth getting some (banana or catappa) for the tanks. If it does change the pH with it also impact the hardness of my water? If so, as long as it's not a big change, will this matter?
Basically, is there anything that can go wrong if I add any of these leaves to the tanks, as long as I do it slowly and keep an eye on the pH? Don't want to have an epic pH crash as the results don't bear thinking about.
Any advice welcome.
Thanks.  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2016, 06:28:38 PM »
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That variation in pH is not a cause for concern. A difference of a whole pH unit would be.


Anything that lowers pH from leaves to tannins has a greater effect in soft water. KH and GH are usually, but not always, high or low together. With your hard water it is very likely you also have high KH. The higher the KH, the more the water 'resists' changes in pH.

If you decide to try some leaves of whatever type you could always test them first by leaving a piece of leaf in a container of water and see what happens. Try to get the same leaf to water ratio as there would be in the tank  :)

Offline fcmf

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2016, 06:30:19 PM »
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I've also just read some information on banana leaves, mulberry leaves and catappa leaves being used in tanks. I'd heard of catappa leaves, but not the others (I mean, I was aware that the plants had leaves  :P , but not that they were dried and used in tanks).
I've used catappa leaves for quite a while now, and, following the comment about banana leaves from pandaman recently, also bought some of them (they came all the way from China). As you've probably gathered, I'm quite cautious about adding anything for fear of anything happening to my fish. I've not found that either of them have affected my PH or GH/KH at all [edited to add - and, following Sue's comment above which overlapped with me posting mine, it seems that this would be expected to happen more in a soft-water tank such as mine]. The only adverse effect which did occur was when I added the water that I'd boiled some catappa leaves in to the tank after letting it cool, to give the tank a more tannin-stained effect - the fish started behaving oddly and RichardW suggested that it may have resulted in an overdose effect which certainly seemed to have been the case. If you fancy trying them out before committing to buying them, and are happy to P.M. me your address, I'll pop a sample of each off to you in the mail. Incidentally, I see that it's also possible to buy alder cones (Dennerle make them, I think), but hadn't read of mulberry leaves - very interesting.

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2016, 06:42:13 PM »
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I'd forgotten about alder cones, I even have a bag of them in the cupboard  :-[

If you use enough of them they do give the water a brownish tint. I didn't bother to check the pH though. My cherry shrimps loved grazing on them when I put them in the 50 litre tank, I'll have to put some in the 180 litre.


When they get old, alder cones do disintegrate but it is easy enough to hoover the bits up.

Offline Matt

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2016, 06:58:58 PM »
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There is some fantastic information here: http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/2016/10/28/free-tank-decor about tannins, coloration and affect on pH from different leaves.  :cheers:

Edit: scroll to the bottom of the page to see the charts

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2016, 08:07:59 PM »
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The plant storage tank has been in the dark for just over 2 hours and it still has a pH of 8.4.
My fresh tap water is 7.4.
My main concern, apart from what is making the pH rise, is the impact this may have on my fish if I do a large water change.
I'm going down the route of planting all of my tanks more heavily, and will probably have to add liquid CO2 to the tanks, so I'll monitor the impact of this before changing anything else.
I have tested some of the different types of rocks in my tanks, but none of them fizzed with vinegar. I'll double check the sand and other substrates and pebbles over the next few days as well.
The information on the leaves is very interesting. We have a lot of nature reserves and common land in the area, and I have an oak tree overhanging the garden, but I worry about collecting my own leaves in case I introduce anything unpleasant into the tanks. I think I'll skip the leaves for now, go with more plants, and see what happens.
Thanks for the offer of sample leaves @fcmf , if you are happy to send samples then I'd like to have a look at them and perhaps see what some of the fish make of them.  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2016, 09:47:43 AM »
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Freshly run tap water is 7.4 and earlier you said a glass of tap water had pH 8.4 after standing 48 hours. Are these both correct or is one a typo?

If they are correct, it indicates that the water company adds something (possibly just carbon dioxide) to acidify the water in the pipes. When the water stands the excess carbon dioxide gasses out like gas from a glass of lemonade and the pH rises.

Last time I tested it, my tap water pH went up 0.2 on standing.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Changing pH in tanks
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2016, 02:41:57 PM »
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No typo I'm afraid. This change in pH is what concerns me. I'm worried that doing a large water change in a tank will shock the fish.

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