Angelfish & Rams????

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Offline daniel_james_taylor

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Angelfish & Rams????
« on: July 01, 2013, 05:44:34 PM »
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Hi All,

As some of you may know I am in the middle of my 200L (approx 180L with decor displacement) aquarium project. The pics on the gallery should give a good idea of the layout of my tank and details are as follows:

Eco 100 Tank & Cabinet:
•   Tank dimensions: 100cm x 40cm x 50cm
•   AquaManta EFX 300 external filter (oversized)
•   2 x 39w T5 lights & 300w heaterstat

Current fish stock: 4 buenos aires tetra's , 4 Lake Kutubu Rainbowfish , 4 panda garras

My questions .....

I am planning on adding angelfish as the 'centre piece', how many would be appriopriate for my tank size. I have been told 5-6 and I have read so much contradictory information so im now confused  :-\

Secondly I have been playing with the community creator and like the idea of adding a pair of bolivian rams and a group of cories, however have been told by my lfs that the rams are not compatable with the angel fish due to breeding agression?

Thank you,

Dan

Offline Sue

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 07:29:03 PM »
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Angelfish -
Either a single, a proved pair or 6 juveniles, then allow them to pair up and rehome the other 4. A small group of angels will come to blows if 2 pair up. But you can't get 2 angels and assume they'll get on. They are impossible to sex until they breed so you could end up with 2m, 2f or 1m 1f.

Bolivian rams -
Yes, they do chase other fish when they breed but my pair never did any damage. All they did was chase, not make contact. You are more likely to have problems with angels chasing other fish if they breed because they get bigger than rams.

I always warn people about rams, of both kinds. I had a pair of bolivians in a tank with smallish gravel. Being earth eaters, they took the gravel into their mouths when looking gor food bits. And the female got a piece stuck. It was there for several days till she got rid of it, though I don't know if she spat it put or swallowed it. She was never the same again. She lost her co-ordinations. She would grab at a piece of food and miss. it took her several go's to get each mouthful. She got thinner and thinner till she eventually died. These fish mate for life. After she died the male just went downhill and he too died within a month.
If you want rams, use sand.

Offline daniel_james_taylor

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 09:17:22 PM »
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Hi Sue,

thankyou for the reply, i have sand in my tank so I won't need to worry about the 'earth eating' problem.

If I wanted to keep some of the 4 angles that may need to be rehomed what would be a minimum size tank for them?

Thanks,

Dan

Offline Sue

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 08:18:57 AM »
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Angelfish need an absolute minimum of 100 long x 40 wide x 50 tall cm. They do need a tall tank so their fins don't get damaged.

The danger with multiple angels in the same tank is if two of them pair up and breed, they will make life horrible for the others.

Offline daniel_james_taylor

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 07:54:05 PM »
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Ok so been thinking about the angles and would still like to have one as a centre piece. So now for the other tank mates. I have been looking at the community creator; based on my tank having 1 angle fish and the current stock what cichlids would be best suited, if any? For example would 2 pairs of different rams be ok?

Offline Sue

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 08:03:47 PM »
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Do you mean different rams as in rams and bolivian rams? If you do you need to be aware that despite what the CC says, 'ordinary' rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in all its colours and body shapes) need soft acidic water in the upper 20's C to do well.
You could try a group of bolivians - you tank is big enough. Or a pair of bolivians and a pair/trio of apistos.

Offline daniel_james_taylor

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 08:14:36 PM »
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With the group of apistos I guess that would be 1m and 2f? and with the bolivians 1m and 1f?

Offline Sue

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2013, 08:31:35 AM »
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That's right. I had a pair of apistos and a pair of bolivian rams in an 80cm long 125 litre tank and they were OK together. With your tank having a bigger footprint, you should have room for a trio (1m 2f) of apistos.
But you could also have a small group of bolivian rams instead of 2 kinds of bottom dwelling cichlid. My tank is just too small for that. In a big enough tank, they can be kept in groups of 6 to 8.

If you'd rather have apistos as well rather than a lot of fish the same, the most common ones in the shops are Apistogramma cacatuoides (cockatoo cichlid) and A. agassizi. But I have also seen A. borelli, A. trifasciata and A. panduro/nijsseni (very similar fish, often named as the other one in shops). All look pretty boring in shop tanks, but the females especially will colour up when settled in your tank. As do bolivian rams.

It is very difficult to sex bolivian rams. The only sure fire way is from the breeding tubes. Males tend to have elongated rays at the front of the dorsal fin, tail edges and pelvic fins - but young males won't have grown them yet. The anal fin in males is long enough to reach past the start of the caudal peduncle, but again, juvenile males' fins won't have grown yet. Females have rounded bellies all the way from the mouth to the tail, whereas males' bellies flatten off towards the tail. But malnutrition is all too common in shop tanks and emaciated females' bellies look like males. Like with angels, the recommended is to buy a group, let them pair off then sell on the 'spare' ones. Some shops will take them back as they can sell them again as proved pairs for more money.

Offline daniel_james_taylor

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Re: Angelfish & Rams????
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2013, 09:36:58 PM »
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Hi Sue,

Thank you for your advice, I think I will be going for two different types of cichlids. I will be visiting my local mha this weekend so will keep the forum posted :)

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