Tropical Fish Forum

Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: fcmf on December 30, 2019, 02:14:31 PM

Title: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion [some missing posts in thread]
Post by: fcmf on December 30, 2019, 02:14:31 PM
Hi folks,
I know it's been mentioned a few times on here about experts increasingly recommending 50% water changes, and indeed this is what I find I do myself by the time I've thoroughly siphoned up all the debris (snail poo and snail food messily eaten by the fish who steal it), but I've been wondering if there are any sources/references on this, and on what basis this is being recommended e.g. whether it has greater/lesser benefit for specific aspects of fishkeeping and/or whether there are any circumstances for which 50% might not be recommended? I'm still seeing 20-30% being advocated, or not challenged, by experts elsewhere - might it be that the evidence for 50% isn't yet strong enough to be published and cited, or is it simply a matter of this new view taking time to filter through?
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Sue on December 30, 2019, 04:51:02 PM
It's probably taking time to filter through. Several decades ago, water changes were thought to be bad and were done only once every few months. The library books I read when I first got fish in the mid 1990s also cautioned that fish could die after a water change (which we now know was due to old tank syndrome)

The amount of water to be changed has been increasing during the time I've been keeping fish, from 10% to 25% then to 50%. I've recently read that we should be changing 75% a week.

I think the increasing volumes is due to our better understanding of what's in tank water. Before test kits, did anyone ever consider what was in the water? I know that hampalong has been keeping fish a long time, perhaps he could tell us what thinking was when he first had fish.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Sue on December 30, 2019, 07:32:20 PM
I think the nitrate level is partly the answer. But also realisation that there is a lot more in the water than we can test for, and those things need to be removed as well.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on December 30, 2019, 08:41:38 PM
What I can say is that since starting 50% weekly water changes I have lost less fish to illness (very few in fact). That's all the reason I need to go for this volume.

To add to this from a planted tank perspective. EI dosing in a common fertiliser dosing strategy which doses in excess to ensure no deficiencies. This approach also advocated a 50% water change to 'reset those nutrient levels at the end of the week (though I personally have my doubts this can be achieved and found increased nitrates over time using this approach on my tank).
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on December 30, 2019, 10:15:45 PM
Hi folks,
I know it's been mentioned a few times on here about experts increasingly recommending 50% water changes, and indeed this is what I find I do myself by the time I've thoroughly siphoned up all the debris (snail poo and snail food messily eaten by the fish who steal it), but I've been wondering if there are any sources/references on this, and on what basis this is being recommended e.g. whether it has greater/lesser benefit for specific aspects of fishkeeping and/or whether there are any circumstances for which 50% might not be recommended? I'm still seeing 20-30% being advocated, or not challenged, by experts elsewhere - might it be that the evidence for 50% isn't yet strong enough to be published and cited, or is it simply a matter of this new view taking time to filter through?

Hi @fcmf

In a nutshell, I don't think 'one size fits all'. What do I mean by that? Simple - I think the proportion and frequency of water changes should be based on science and observation. I choose to measure a range of water/lighting parameters and this gives me a pretty good idea of the aquatic environment. But, I cannot measure everything nor would I want to. So, that's where observation comes in - observing the fish, shrimps, snails, plants, etc. I change the frequency and amount of water accordingly. And I generally clean the filter media at the same time. As a rule, that works well for my tanks. And, if something goes amiss, I go looking for answers.

BTW, who are these 'experts' to whom you refer? There are some people who truly excel in some aspects of fishkeeping but I don't think even they would refer to themselves as 'experts'. I'm thinking of people like Dr Timothy Hovanec, Dr Gregory Morin, Diana Walstad and others whose names I fail to remember.

Just my two penn'orth.

JPC  :)
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: fcmf on December 30, 2019, 11:13:28 PM
Completely agree with you, JPC.

BTW, who are these 'experts' to whom you refer?
Not entirely sure - it's others who have referred to "experts" but I'm equally keen to know who exactly they're referring to.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Sue on December 31, 2019, 10:09:34 AM
Experts are people like Neale Monks.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: fcmf on December 31, 2019, 11:09:05 AM
Experts are people like Neale Monks.
I had assumed/thought that's who one of them might have been - he certainly knows his stuff and is well-regarded.


Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on December 31, 2019, 05:49:57 PM
I've recently read that we should be changing 75% a week.

Hi @Sue

May I ask where you read that? I'd love to see it. If someone has good reason for doing this, then I'll sit up and listen.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on December 31, 2019, 06:20:58 PM

Is the larger recommended water change now in part because we are aware that nitrates need to be kept lower than previously thought?

I don't know any science, but seems to me more fresh water regularly would keep our water more oxygenated (is that a word,lol) as well?

Hi @fishtales

On the first question above, you may well be correct. There is the potential for nitrates to just keep increasing in unplanted tanks if not kept in check. Media can be added to the filter and there are other techniques that can be used but I know of no-one that uses the latter. Probably the best way is to ensure that the tank is planted and let Nature do the work. Nitrates are absorbed by plants as they need the nitrogen. Having said that, plants will also absorb ammonia.

Regarding your second comment, there is no need to do a water change to improve oxygenation. Just ensure that the water surface is kept agitated at all times and this will take care of dissolved oxygen in the water. But, be aware that an oily film or slime on the water surface can interfere with this and extra measures may be needed. Also, ensure that the substrate is kept free of excess detritus as the breakdown of this waste consumes oxygen.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: fcmf on December 31, 2019, 06:54:03 PM
What is your usual dGH reading, @fishtales
I noticed, a while back, that the reservoir supplying my water had changed - just as well I had input the postcode rather than checked the usual reservoir readings. This remained the case for several months, then reverted back to the previous reservoir. It was of no consequence to me as the readings were very similar but it may well be possible that water parameters do change, whether permanently or not.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Sue on December 31, 2019, 07:09:55 PM
Northumbrian Water changed their website a few weeks ago, and although it looks like there should be a link when you hover the pointer over it, clicking does nothing, though the other links do work. They say my water is slightly hard but a GH of 5 dH is soft in fish keeping terms. That's the problem with words, they can be misleading. Imagine someone reading that and thinking, I've got hard water so I need hard water fish.




On the subject of 75% water changes, it is a few people on another forum who have said this. The odd one or two reckons we should be changing 75% a week, though there is another one who says to do 75% water changes every day when the fish are obviously sick, not every week as routine.

I have put a marker pen dot on the corner of my tank half way between the water line when full and the substrate. This probably means I change more than 50% as the decor is all in the bottom half and will displace a lot of water. I have tried counting the buckets of new water but I always lose track so I have no idea how much I change  :-[
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on December 31, 2019, 07:44:32 PM
On the subject of 75% water changes, it is a few people on another forum who have said this. The odd one or two reckons we should be changing 75% a week, though there is another one who says to do 75% water changes every day when the fish are obviously sick, not every week as routine.

Hi @Sue

OK. I was hoping for a reason or explanation as to why anyone would make these large and frequent water changes. But, thanks anyway.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Sue on December 31, 2019, 07:57:53 PM
@fishtales I have a chart like that. I downloaded them as they came out every year but the last one was 2011. In that they gave my hardness as 4 dH, but the last time they gave the hardness on their website it had increased to 5.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Sue on December 31, 2019, 09:10:42 PM
My hardness has been increasing tiny bit by tiny bit over a couple of years. But remember, I'm only talking about a 1 dH increase in 9 years, which is so tiny it can be ignored.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 01, 2020, 01:05:11 AM
I would appreciate if someone could give me a quick shopping list of easy plants to put in my tank. Plus a good supplier. Also as I currently seem to have high Nitrates, the best fertilizer to buy to get me started.

My led light isn't the best, but am hopeful it can at least support some of the simplest plants.

I would like to get some ordered asap to hopefully help combat said high Nitrates. At least this is something I can do to feel productive for my fish  :)

Image below shows my recommended plants. For nitrate removal please also make use of floating plants (Amazon Frogbit - Limnobium laevigatum is my favourite) and truly aquatic plants (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/aquascaping/truly-aquatic-plants-why-you-don't-need-co2/ (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/aquascaping/truly-aquatic-plants-why-you-don't-need-co2/)) such as Elodea or Hornwort which will give rapid growth.  More info if you want it on my site at: http://scapeeasy.co.uk/plants.htm (http://scapeeasy.co.uk/plants.htm)

Fertilisation if you don't want to increase nitrates you should use a micros only product that contains phosphorus also, something like JBLs Ferropol which is available in most MAs. I'd link you to the fertilisation page on my site but it's not quite right at the moment. Let me know if you want more product suggestions.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 01, 2020, 10:13:22 AM
Thanks, though I really should get round to updating the co2 and ferts pages.... so ask away if they leave you with questions... a 6 month old is preventing me lol!
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: barneyadi on January 01, 2020, 01:27:32 PM
@Matt What fertilisers should we be using in a low tech tank? Should it be a complete one like the JBL Ferropol you suggest?
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 01, 2020, 02:09:41 PM
@fishtales I'm hoping to start selling plants quite soon, just excess from my own tanks. Anubias and bolbitis to start. Got to be careful with e.g. crypt melt getting blamed on the seller etc.
I tried to offer the e-aquascaping service but didnt get much interest.  Im actually hoping he starts crawling quite soon, the big food belly is holding him back, but chicken and egg he needs to crawl to get rid of it!

@barneyadi Ferropol is definately one I would recommend, though it is not a complete fertiliser. For that you need something like The Aquascaper Complete Liquid plant food or Tropica's Specialised liquid fert. JBL Ferropol is recommended here because it won't increase nitrates whereas the two products I've just mentioned also contain nitrogen and potassium. I'd recommend these products if your nitrates are low (less than say 10 or 15) and/or if your fish stocking density is low. Fish contribute nitrogen and fish food contributes potassium.  Does that make sense? For me it's a case of test your water see.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 01, 2020, 03:27:36 PM
Fish contribute nitrogen and fish food contributes potassium.

Hi @Matt

I know that many dried fish foods are high in phosphorus. But, I've never seen published or measured figures for potassium. As I currently have an interest in the latter (for other reasons), I'll devise an experiment to measure the potassium content of a flake food.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 01, 2020, 03:47:15 PM
Thanks for the explanation @jaypeecee  :) Seems like another good reason I really need to take the plunge and invest in real plants.

Hi @fishtales

Don't forget the humble moss ball - almost zero maintenance. Please see:

https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/the-humble-moss-ball/msg46076/#msg46076

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 01, 2020, 04:09:02 PM

I am quite upset at the moment as for some reason there are changes in my water straight from the tap. Current readings today show my dGH is reading 18! and Nitrates are reading 40. The dGH is a reading from my NT labs kit and the Nitrates result are from testing with both NT labs and API.

I know there are a few roadworks in progress atm and Northumbrian Water state they are currently updating their network in my area to improve services. They also are not giving a dGH number, simply stating 'water very hard' for my area. So I have no idea if my water parameters are permanently changed at this point.

Hi @fishtales

You have every reason to be upset at the moment. Having read this thread, it seems that your dGH should be 8 but it's suddenly increased to 18. Is that correct? Have your fish been subject to this change and, if so, are they OK?

If necessary, you could switch to re-mineralized RO water if you can get this from your LFS/MA.

Please keep us updated.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 01, 2020, 04:09:15 PM
Thanks for the explanation @jaypeecee  :) Seems like another good reason I really need to take the plunge and invest in real plants.

Hi @fishtales

Don't forget the humble moss ball - almost zero maintenance. Please see:

https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/the-humble-moss-ball/msg46076/#msg46076

JPC

Tough take care as they can attract algae.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 01, 2020, 04:09:54 PM
Fish contribute nitrogen and fish food contributes potassium.

Hi @Matt

I know that many dried fish foods are high in phosphorus. But, I've never seen published or measured figures for potassium. As I currently have an interest in the latter (for other reasons), I'll devise an experiment to measure the potassium content of a flake food.

JPC

Actually wondering if I have my facts wrong here... I have a fussy baby on my hands though... give me till tonight to confirm.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 01, 2020, 06:23:19 PM
Thank you for the suggestion and link for Moss balls. I shall order some straight away to put in my tank while I organise plants and changing substrate. There seems to be quite a few sellers with it on Ebay. Would you think they are okay to buy from there?

Hi @fishtales

I would be nervous about buying moss balls from Ebay. I would be more inclined to trust a supplier like:

https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/moss-ball-chladophlora-438-p.asp

Make sure that you give them a good rinse before adding them to your tank.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 01, 2020, 09:38:25 PM
Not sure why baby brain set in earlier but I was doing ok up till the last minute.... right to break down briefly without giving away the content of my revised site before I actually publish it...

There are Macro nutrients (nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium) and micro nutrients (loads!) In liquid fertilisers you tend to get the choices of  a complete product (micros and macros) or a micros only product (theres other product types but these are the main stay amd as usual im looking to keep thinga simple/easy here). How much complete fertiliser you dose should be dictated by nitrate levels as we want to keep these at high enough levels to promote plant growth but low enough levels so as not to unduly harm the fish. But you can top up the micro fertilisers almost without consequence. Ie. Unlikely to lead to any algae problems if overdosed a little bit (though dont go mad obviously and remember 50% weekly water chamges) and will not harm fish shrimp or snails.

Of the macro nutrients nitrogen and phosphorus are contributed by fish / food wastes. Potassium is the one that there is no significant source of (though it is needed in far less quantities that the other two). Hence why I recommend a micro fertiliser such as JBL Ferropol which also contains potassium because if you assume nitrates and phosphates are available in a heavily stocked aquarium, then this covers all th3 other plant nutrient requirements. Tap water also contains phosphates so even if not heavily stocked just poor quality tap water nigh in nitrates and phosphates the rule tend to fit reasonably well... that's my theory anyway. Not perfect but I've had success with it and it keeps things as simple as I think it should/can be. Dose complete ferts until you are at recommended dosage level or nitrates get too high (I've found they often do even in say 50%stocked tanks) and dose what you didn't in complete in micros only. So for example i dose a third of a weekly complete fertiliser dosage and two thirds of a micros only (with potassium) fertiliser weekly dosage. This needs a diagram yet to come to aid explanation...

Hope that wasn't too long winded and clarifies things!
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 02, 2020, 12:23:37 PM
...and remember 50% weekly water chamges...

Hi @Matt

The purpose of this thread was to discuss the proportion of water changed. Did we agree on the above? Have I missed something?

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 02, 2020, 02:04:09 PM
Fish contribute nitrogen and fish food contributes potassium.

Hi @Matt

I know that many dried fish foods are high in phosphorus. But, I've never seen published or measured figures for potassium. As I currently have an interest in the latter (for other reasons), I'll devise an experiment to measure the potassium content of a flake food.

JPC

Actually wondering if I have my facts wrong here... I have a fussy baby on my hands though... give me till tonight to confirm.

@jaypeecee I was responding to this. The 50% water changes is my recommendation only and is part of what I personally recommend as part of the scape easy approach.  Welcome others views, this is what works in my experience as per my original post above.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 04, 2020, 08:28:32 PM
I can't find many details on it but I suspect it is not concentrated nor is it a good good food on its own. Seems like a bit of a gimmick to be honest. First time I've heard of some compounds breaking down over less than 24 hours and needing to be replenished. At one drop per 50litres there seems no way to me that it can contain all the requirements for plants.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 10, 2020, 01:22:55 PM
Hi Folks,

The name - JBL Ferropol 24 - tells us a lot. For 'Ferro', read 'iron' and the '24' implies daily use. And the colourful picture of a flower on the box shows several 'petals', each with the name of a chemical element. So, we have:

Mn = Manganese
Fe = Iron
Co = Cobalt
B = Boron
Zn = Zinc
Mg = Magnesium
Sn = Tin
+ some extra letters that have obviously been plucked out of the air for good measure!

I was once planning to use this product some while ago. I think the idea is to add a dose every day to ensure an ongoing supply of iron + trace elements, all of which can get used up very quickly. It would not be intended to use on its own as it obviously does not supply any of the macronutrients, i.e. nitrogen, phophorus and potassium. There are some very well-known aquatic plant experts (e.g. Dennis Wong) who would now add sulphur to that list. For more information, see:

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/#

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 10, 2020, 05:15:13 PM
First time I've heard of some compounds breaking down over less than 24 hours and needing to be replenished.

Hi @Matt

When Ferropol 24 is added to the tank water, it will produce the ionic form of elements making these instantly available to the plants. But, the dosage is such that, in the 'average' tank, these elements will be used up by the plants and will need replacing daily.

Iron exists in two forms - ferrous and ferric. The first of these is the form preferred by plants. But, as I understand it, it can react with phosphates in the water thus causing it to precipitate out. In simple terms, it will either fall to the bottom of the tank or get sucked into the filter. So, it is possibly better to replenish it on a daily basis.

As you know, some people prefer to dose daily, others prefer to overdose the tank with ferts, then do 50% water changes weekly as per Tom Barr's Estimative Index (EI) approach.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2020, 06:28:57 PM
We will never be fed up hearing about water as we are all obsessed with it.  ;D
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 13, 2020, 09:17:15 PM
I got Easy-Life Profito and Easy-Life Carbo as it seems more cost efficient. I got Elodea Densa and Riccia fluitans to float. I understand you can also plant the Elodea Densa in the sand. If I were to do this would I need some additional fertilizers?

Hi @fishtales

Elodea Densa will grow in fresh air! OK, that is not correct. But I think you'll get my drift. I used to have it in my pond where it grew like nobody's business. It's used for oxygenating ponds. On a sunny day, you can clearly see copious numbers of oxygen bubbles being released from the many leaves. It can grow prolifically but this is ultimately determined by how much lighting you have over your tank. You may not need any additional fertilizers. But it will depend on how much nitrate and phosphate are provided by your fish.

Please keep us posted.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2020, 09:35:29 PM
I bought loads of elodea for my recent fish relocation.
I've used it as a sort of sacrificial plant, throwing loads into the tanks when they were set up at the new place here, just so the fish have cover and there are enough live plants available until I can completely re-plant the tanks with the correct plants. Between elodea and moss balls, I'm fairly convinced that this had helped the tanks & inhabitants settle after such a massive move.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 13, 2020, 10:37:50 PM
...but got 5 large pots of the Elodea as it apparently eats lots of Nitrates. It states it can lower your dGH as well.

Hi @fishtales

Any plant can potentially lower dGH but, because Elodea Densa can grow very quickly, it may have a noticeable effect on dGH. The reason for this is that GH is primarily a measure of the calcium and magnesium content of water. Therefore, if either of these elements are consumed sufficiently, GH could reduce. Whether this happens or not will depend on the ratio of plant mass to volume of water. So, moral of the story - keep an eye on your GH.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 13, 2020, 10:50:32 PM
Thanks @jaypeecee Regarding liquid ferts and Nitrates and phosphates. Since I seem to have shifting water parameters from my provider at the moment. My thoughts turned to this product Ei starter kit (https://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html) I assume you can customise it to your needs. Would love to get your opinion on it  :)

Hi @fishtales

I think I mentioned the EI Method recently on another thread. This is a specialized approach to plant fertilization, which requires a lot of work and advanced knowledge of aquarium plants. If you search for 'Estimative Index Tom Barr', you'll find loads of information about it.

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 14, 2020, 02:56:13 PM
I notice that all fertilizers that don't contain Nitrate don't contain phosphate either. I don't understand this stuff much so wondered, if my Nitrates are high because of tap water not fish waste, will I still have sufficient phosphate for my plants?

Hi @fishtales

I think the main reason that some fertilizers exclude both nitrate and phosphate is because, historically, they have both been considered to promote algae - particularly phosphate. Plants only need a tiny amount of phosphate compared to nitrate. Here are some figures:

Nitrate: 5 - 30 ppm

Phosphate: 0.1 - 1.5 ppm

So, you may well have sufficient phosphate in your water. Unfortunately, for we fishkeepers, water companies don't appear to quote phosphate figures. But, it is unlikely that your phosphate level will not be sufficient for your plants. If necessary, you can always measure phosphate in your water. I use the JBL phosphate (PO4) Sensitive Test Kit. This is the newly-packaged version of what I use:

https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/8676/jbl-proaquatest-po4-phosphate-sensitive

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: jaypeecee on January 14, 2020, 05:55:12 PM
Those figures really put the quantity into perspective. I will see how my plants progress. If they are struggling I will get the test you kindly linked too, and check what my tanks phosphate parameters look like  :)

Hi @fishtales

That sounds good to me!

JPC
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 15, 2020, 04:05:33 AM
Nothing much to add here other than it can be useful to take pictures of your tank each week so you can monitor plant growth. Often it shows more rapid progress than we notice through daily observation. You might also want to familiarise yourself with these diagrams... https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-tank-plant-advice/useful-plant-diagnosis-charts/msg23023/#msg23023 (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-tank-plant-advice/useful-plant-diagnosis-charts/msg23023/#msg23023)

Good luck with your elodea. It is a great starting plant!
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: fcmf on January 15, 2020, 04:01:11 PM
Good luck with your plants - I'm sure you'll do fine.
In the event that you have difficulty, though, don't despair as you're in good company - I just read yesterday about some folk (very experienced and well-known fishkeepers) having difficulty with plants that are ordinarily considered indestructable but which I can never keep alive myself and therefore which makes me feel marginally better.  :D


Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Littlefish on January 15, 2020, 06:15:57 PM
I've lost count of the number of java ferns I've killed off, and they are totally considered starter plants. I've just never got on with them. Anubias and bucephalandra rule my world as far as plants for attaching to decor are concerned. Perhaps I'll give a java fern another go when I've settled my tanks in again.  :-[
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 15, 2020, 07:58:07 PM
Java fern needs more light than most other easy plants. Try getting it high in the waters column. And dont despair if it takes ages to get used to your water conditions. If it grows black spots on the leaves, these will grow into baby plants more readily adjusted to the tank parameters. They should be harvested at a decent size as eventually the parent leaf will die off.once successfully growing its needs to be cleaned out near the rhizomes as it attracts waste yet needs goo water flow around it's roots etc.

 I promised to write this up a while back but have never got round to it... this is the jist of things anyway.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: LeakysLab on January 15, 2020, 08:14:57 PM
Sorry but may I divert slightly as whilst I’ve followed this topic with my learning cap on  C:-). I have something I can’t get my head round. If we are to do 50% weekly water changes (except for when cycling) if I add my chosen substrate which is Tropica Aquarium Soil Powder, it states on their website: “ We recommend that you change 25-50% of the water min. twice a week during the first 4 weeks after establishing the aquarium.” Do I still continue to cycle without changing the water ?? It is also worth noting I intend to use live plants in my set up. I understand their maybe no straight answer but any advice would be gratefully received.

Simon
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Matt on January 15, 2020, 08:44:55 PM
There are 2 things at play here hence the possible confusion...

Cycling a tanks filter is best when there is ammonia in the water column to feed the bacteria. Hence why often suggested to not do water changes (as there is no point removing any ammonia to just replace it). BUT as yiu are having a planted tank it is arguably more important to have established plants than an established filter as these will more quickly be able to deal with the fish waste. Tropica advise to do lots of water changes for the first month or so because this is when tanks are most susceptible to diatoms as the plants settle in etc and the water changes keep any nutrients in the water column to a minimum to help with reducing the likelihood or extent of an outbreak.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: LeakysLab on January 15, 2020, 09:21:49 PM
Ok  ;) got ya (I think) so I am best off following the increased water changes during this initial set up as I can wait for that to settle then concentrate on establishing the filter. I did think that the two would work side by side but reading up on scapeeasy and advice from the forum the plants will be consuming ammonia thus needing me to monitor nitrite rising and falling (having read a previous post from Sue in another topic).
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: Sue on January 17, 2020, 09:06:20 AM
If there are enough fast growing plants, there will be no nitrite as plants do not turn ammonia into nitrite. But I always recommend checking it, just in case there aren't enough plants or they are not growing well enough.
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: LeakysLab on January 17, 2020, 05:15:48 PM
Would I then still need an source of ammonia to cycle the filter? I assume if I have to change the water (@ 50%) because of the release of ammonia etc from the soil that will reduce it so I will need to keep adding more like during a traditional cycle? I will be testing the water before adding fish regardless. :fishy1:
Title: Re: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion
Post by: fcmf on February 07, 2020, 05:51:51 PM
[Some posts missing in this thread as, regrettably for us given that she was a valued member, former member Fishtales left the forum and deleted most of her posts.]