The Tribulations Of Cycling A New Tank - Need Advice

Ok, I have a 60 litre tank that I'm trying to cycle. It was on the way, with nitrates being produced, when it crashed and we are, apparently, back at square one. The specifics are:

60 litres, with led lighting (Juwel Primo tank)
Eco Complete substrate 1/2 and Unipac sand 1/2
one large piece of bogwood
Planted with two java ferns (on wood), and approximately 10 other plants, including an area of a grassy-looking plant in the substrate that I can't remember the name of. And two mossballs.
Juwel Bioflow One filter (for 80 litre tank)
Prime to condition the water.
The tank lights are on from 9 to noon, and then from 5pm to 9pm.
The temp is about 25c (maybe a bit over).

I also have a little 5 gallon tank, rounded gravel, with a Tetra Whisper and an Eheim filter running. It's stocked and has been up for two years.

Tap water has no nitrates or nitrites, and is very soft. Its parameters (from the Scottish Water) are German 0.94. the CaCo3 is 16.85.  When I initially tested it I was getting between 6.0 and 6.5 on the PH using the API dipsticks. After being in the tank it has dropped to 6.0 (possibly lower, but that was the bottom of the scale).

I had to put a double-dose of API "Up" (sodium carbonate) in to make any noticeable difference in the Ph level.

I am now using the API master test kit and it's a very pale 6.0 Ph (without any "Up" added).

I have put a little packet of what is supposed to be dolomite gravel in each tank, where the water will run over it coming out of the filters.

To aid the cycling, I pulled a small over-the-back filter that I'd had on a five gallon aquarium that has been up and running for two years and put it on this one. I later sacrificed the filter media to this tank.  (I had another filter running on the five gallon and had for two months, so it should have kept everyone alive until the other filter was back. The five gallon was overstocked due to unexpected offspring.)

I had been cycling the 60 litre fish-less since early May, had a nitrite spike that was coming down, and had 20 ppm of nitrates. Earlier this week, the nitrites disappeared, so I was happy until I saw the nitrates were also gone, and the ammonia was up again.

I did a 75% water change and planned to start over in another fish-less cycle try, except that the five gallon tank "crashed" badly at that point and I lost several baby albino corys.  I moved six surviving very young albino corys over to the 60 litre tank, and have been monitoring it carefully. They've been getting a 25% to 33% water change every day to bring the ammonia down.

This morning it was, after 24 hours since the last change, between .5 and 1.0.  I've just done another 33% water change and will be testing shortly to make sure it's ok.  The five gallon tank is pretty much getting flushed every other day and having partial water changes every morning and evening. It contains three adult albino corys and four neons that I am trying to keep alive until the corys can be moved to the large tank. (After which the neons should have a better time of it in there.)

The plants are doing well in the large tank, except the mossballs. They seem to be getting just a bit brown and don't look good, and I'm not quite sure why. I am going to pull them out of the tank and put them elsewhere for a while to see if they perk back up. The mossball in the small tank looked very bad indeed and has been removed. The other live plant in there is doing well. All the other plants have pretty much doubled in size in three weeks, except the java ferns (that seem healthy) and the mossballs.

In a panic yesterday I added Dr. Tim's bacteria to each filter to try to help jump-start the cycle again. (Triple the dose, actually.) And will continue to add to it in the small tank as I am having to do such massive water changes so often.

I am using Prime, and I know that can give a positive reading for ammonia that is temporarily "safe" (24 to 48 hours?). Due to the size of the small tank, I've not got really many other options that I know about other than the constant water changes to keep the fish safe.

Do you have any advice for anything else I can be doing to help these tanks get cycling again? They have to have the fish in them, unfortunately. I'm afraid to move anyone else from the small tank to the large one, but as soon as I can I would like to move the adult corys over one a week. I'm kind of amazed that the six babies (they are about 1 to 2cm long) could raise the ammonia in a 60 litre tank overnight. Could the bogwood have anything to do with that? I have put a sinking wafer in for them, given them a half hour with it, and then removed the remains. Now I'm putting in 1/2 of a sinking wafer daily, and it's disappearing in the half hour. They are very avidly rooting around and up on the bogwood and plants, etc.

Should I use more "Up" to try to raise the Ph slightly in the water that is going into the tanks in a water change?

I am due to get some cockleshells to add to the tank today, assuming my vendor has them in (as he'd hoped).

Other than keeping changing the water, which I'm ok with as I'm retired and home all day, and testing for ammonia/nitrites is there anything else I can be doing at this point?

EDIT: Have just found this handy chart http://www.ecofilms.com.au/aquaponics-health-understanding-ammonia-water-temperature-and-ph-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-676638  and am breathing a bit easier tonight.

Well then, according to the calculator I have several days. (pwew!) It is definitely safe, at 0.0006 before the last water change, according to this calculator. On the good side, if that log was leaching tanins, I've removed quite a lot of it. And the small tank needed a good flush anyway.

I'll watch the nitrite as well - there was none yesterday evening, and no nitrates. I had planned on moving the three adult corys over there to the big tank anyway. I'll keep an eye on them in the 5 gallon, to give the plants just a little longer to root in before the little bulldozers get turned loose on them.

I am curious if the Dr. Tims will work or not. I've read that the ammonia concentration (read this online anyway, it's not on the bottle) needs to be around 2.0 before it really starts working. I saturated all three filters with it, and dumped quite a bit in each tank as well. I guess we'll see?

I was advised to try to get the tank established and cycled up before doing that, and the little tank was stable. The big tank was on the way, actually - ammonia had dropped and nitrite was coming down (although still too high on its own), and I had some nitrate, when it all crashed. Also, not all of the inhabitants of the old tank are going to the new tank, just the corys.  Basically, I was trying to give both the plants and the microbes a head start. I have two small filters on the small tank, and actually did transfer one of them over to the big tank, for a while, and sacrificed its filter material to the big tank. Unfortunately, the other small filter wasn't established enough (it'd been in there for over a month, which was not long enough, I guess) and the little tank crashed.

Best laid plans of mice and men, and all that... 

There is still no nitrite showing in the big tank this morning, but just a trace in the small one - which I assume the Prime will take care of for a day. So I guess the big corys are moving sooner than I planned.

Hi JPC. 

I didn't expect it was going to be easy, but, hey, was happy it was actually coming along as quickly as it was.
The last place I lived in the States had some seriously mineralized water, so I've never actually run into this before. I never checked the water other than for chlorine/chloramine/heavy metals/pollutants. (Prior to cycling.)

The baby corys are in the big tank and seem to be getting progressively larger every time I look at them.  Would fish flake be needed, with them in the tank? I'm not feeding them heavily, and they are spending a lot of their time exploring the plants, rock, and log (which I assume means they are eating whatever they find  there).  There is also bogwood in the tank - probably driftwood, as bogwood is terribly expensive. I may take another sample of water down to the aquarium shop and let them test it - I'll mention the phosphorus and see if he can check that for me.

The plant fertilizer I have is Tropica Plant Growth Premium and the label is so tiny I cannot read it. In looking at their adverts online, I note they say it contains no nitrogen or phosphorous. The plants (other than the moss balls) are doing extremely well - most are twice the size they were when I planted them a month ago. I looked at the Scottish Water figures I could find online and they don't provide nearly as in-depth a report as I would have hoped. I'm going to email them and see if I can get a reply.

It looks like the little tank is starting to cycle a bit - I hope, anyway. The ammonia is within limits and there is now a trace of nitrite. (There was none yesterday evening.)  The big tank shows a trace of ammonia and no nitrite. (I didn't check for nitrate, as without nitrite....)

Interestingly, in support of your hypothesis, I had taken most of the plants back out of the small tank (it had never been planted, other than having a moss ball, and I had added quite a few plants last week) and we're getting some semblance of the cycle starting. I left one plant in there that is doing incredibly well. So I'm wondering if there is just enough phosphate in the water for the plants to use, but not enough for the bacteria then? I also wonder if that is what could have caused the previously very happy moss ball to start going south in the little tank - the addition of a lot of other plants. It will be interesting to see what the water tests at when I can get it to the shop.

Thanks, Sue. I'm not going to add anything until someone else tests my water for me. And then, if I do, it'll be a very diluted plant food, I think. I've done hydroponic gardening in the past and I always found it was better to put in half of what any bottle recommended, or less, to see how things react.

I did get a twitter response from Scottish water that they are forwarding my request for info onto their lab guys and that I should hear something soon.

EDIT:  Scottish Water says they aren't required to track it, so they have no information to provide to me about any water parameters other than those required by law. 

Yeah, we're going to hoof it the three miles to the nearest one tomorrow, and then have lunch nearby. So hopefully we'll know more by tomorrow evening.

The baby corys are in the big tank and seem to be getting progressively larger every time I look at them.  Would fish flake be needed, with them in the tank? I'm not feeding them heavily, and they are spending a lot of their time exploring the plants, rock, and log (which I assume means they are eating whatever they find  there).  There is also bogwood in the tank - probably driftwood, as bogwood is terribly expensive. I may take another sample of water down to the aquarium shop and let them test it - I'll mention the phosphorus and see if he can check that for me.

Interestingly, in support of your hypothesis, I had taken most of the plants back out of the small tank (it had never been planted, other than having a moss ball, and I had added quite a few plants last week) and we're getting some semblance of the cycle starting. I left one plant in there that is doing incredibly well. So I'm wondering if there is just enough phosphate in the water for the plants to use, but not enough for the bacteria then? I also wonder if that is what could have caused the previously very happy moss ball to start going south in the little tank - the addition of a lot of other plants. It will be interesting to see what the water tests at when I can get it to the shop.

Hi Nan,

If your LFS can do a phosphate test for you, the minimum phosphate level that I aim for is 0.2 mg/l throughout the cycle. It is quite probable that the LFS staff are not aware of the importance of phosphorus in the development of nitrifying bacteria. To be honest, a year ago I wasn't aware of this. But the evidence is there for anyone that has the inclination to read about it.

JPC

Understood. I am also using plant tabs, but they are buried in the substrate in the back, near the plants. (Tropica Nutrition Capsules for Aquariums. It says it contains both nitrogen, phosphorus, iron and micro nutrients. )

The substrate, Eco-complete, advertises "contains volcanic basalt incorporating over 30 different elements. This substrate has all the mineral nutrients necessary for luxuriant aquatic plant growth without nuisance algae. It is also rich in iron to eliminate the need for messy laterites. Features: Flora-Spore Root Enhancement Symbionts; No rinsing; Packed in water conditioning solution for immediate results."  I've never used anything like that before. No chance that has been messing with the process? For the first several days after the tank was set up we noticed a sort of slight filmy growth on the substrate, and along the bottom of the sides of the tank, but only where there was substrate.

The ammonia in the big tank tonight is at about 1, so still very safe. No nitrites, no nitrates. Going to move Big Bertha the cory over tomorrow, and see how that goes. We are getting a bit of nitrites in the little tank now.

The guy I'm taking the water to really seems to know his stuff, so he'll be thorough, I'm thinking. I will bring up the phosphorus thing with him, for sure.

60 Litre tank is at 6 or less Ph, 1.0 ammonia, no Nitrite, no Nitrate. Tank is at 77F.

5 gallon tank now is at 6.0 or less, 1.0 ammonia, up to .5 Nitrite (possibly a bit higher), no Nitrate yet, so it's starting. Tank is at 77F.

Took one of the large  corys over to the large tank yesterday. She's happy as a clam.

Hi Nan,

Putting together each of your statements above, you are obviously still getting high ammonia readings in both tanks. But your cory survived because the pH is low (6.0 or less). If you measured ammonia at 1.0ppm and pH=7.5, for example, then your cory would be subjected to free ammonia, which is toxic. The higher the pH, the more toxic the ammonia becomes. This is what Sue was saying in a previous post. But here is the dilemma. The optimum pH range for cycling a tank is from 7.4 - 8.0. At pH=6.0 and below, nitrifying bacteria struggle or die. If we can raise your tank pH readings to around 7.4, then the nitrifying bacteria should start to multiply in numbers and this, in turn, will start to reduce ammonia. Didn't we discuss this on another one of your threads a couple of weeks ago?

So, I would approach this by gradually increasing alkalinity/KH. I have done this without any ill-effects for soft water fish (German Blue Rams) by using sodium bicarbonate (aka baking soda). The API KH test kit is a suitable option for monitoring changes. In your 60l tank, just 2g sodium bicarbonate should increase KH by approximately 1dKH. So, we're talking small quantities. This should approximate to 1ml of sodium bicarbonate. That's about one-fifth of a UK level teaspoon. You will need to use proportionately less for your 5 gallon tank.

With further additions of sodium bicarbonate and careful monitoring of KH, pH and ammonia, you may be able to change the water chemistry sufficiently to bring the nitrifying bacteria to life. In fact, it may be a good idea to add Tetra SafeStart to supplement whatever nitrifying bacteria you already have.

I offer the above with a degree of hesitation. I seem to recall that you wanted to keep your fish in these tanks despite the water conditions being unfavourable. My preference at the outset would have been to start up a new tank in which you could have safely housed your fish but only when the cycle had been completed. But, we are where we are. So, let's see what can be done.

JPC

The problem with adding an extra filter is that unless you also increase the number of fish in the tank to get the bacteria to make more of them, the bacteria will stay in the old media. The same number of fish = the same number of bacteria to deal with their waste so they just stay where they are.



Personally I so not like using sodium in a tank because it makes the water unlike anything found in nature. It ay not affect the GH of the water but it increased TDS (total dissolved solids) which is the opposite of what dost water fish need. Calcium carbonate (and magnesium carbonate to a small extent) is better as that add the minerals found naturally in harder water. In other words, shells, coral, limestone, aragonite and especially dolomite are better that bicarbonate of soda. But bicarb dissolves instantly raising KH and pH instantly while shells. coral etc are a long term solution as they dissolve very slowly.
But in your case, the tank would cycle faster with higher KH and pH (though ammonia is more toxic the higher the pH) and once it is cycled, you can gradually stop using bicarb/pH up and use more natural ways of boosting KH. Having a low pH is perfectly OK with fish that prefer acidic water.