Tank With Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate Chemical Neutralisers - Discussion

Author Topic: Tank with ammonia, nitrite, nitrate chemical neutralisers - discussion  (Read 5424 times) 11 replies

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cora

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Super Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 162
  • Likes: 8
  • Tropical Fish Forum User
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
In my intro thread, Sue and I talked about Zeolite and other ammonia-neutralising products. I understand it's probably not a good long-term plan (or stable) to use such products because we WANT a large colony of nitrifying bacteria to eliminate waste and not be committed to a financially-demanding product.

But, let's suppose there was a product which eliminated ammonia, nitrites and nitrates - for example SeaChem's Purigen (ostensibly). Let's assume it's cheap and lasts forever (it's not and it doesn't) - in theory you'd never need a bacteria colony because the toxic waste is always removed perfectly and water is purified (assuming you keep replacing it). Even assuming this were the case and cost wasn't a factor, how would plants in such an environment fare, because there are in theory no nitrates for them to consume?

(In such a setup, even water changes wouldn't be as important (to remove nitrates) - although you'd still need them to replenish minerals etc.)

I'm not planning to use these products, just so we're clear - but I'm interested in the theory behind such a setup. I think it's fair to say the reason fishkeepers prefer the bacteria colony is because it's sustainable and free of charge. And the nitrogen cycle helps plants.

I'm interested in any thoughts anyone has on any part of this!

Offline ColinB

  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1787
  • Likes: 52
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I'll chuck this in to the discussion. At my previously local MA they set up a small marine aquarium with one of these and put a pair of Clownfish in there 5 minutes later. The fish thrived.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Fiona

  • Super Hero Member
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1644
  • Likes: 47
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Coooo I wonder if it really is that good?

Offline Matt

  • @scapeeasy on Instagram
  • Global Moderator
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2775
  • Likes: 302
  • www.scapeeasy.co.uk
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
That's very interesting indeed  :yikes:

I imagine it would work best on a tank with a large surface area of e.g. wood to also harbour a colony of beneficial bacteria...  would it not ultimately kill off plants though?

Offline Fiona

  • Super Hero Member
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1644
  • Likes: 47
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Zero nitrates wouldnt be that good for plants I would think

Offline Cora

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Super Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 162
  • Likes: 8
  • Tropical Fish Forum User
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Zero nitrates wouldnt be that good for plants I would think
This was my thought too. A chemical filter that perfectly removed ammonia, nitrite and therefore nitrates would be a mixed blessing. Ideal for fish (and fishkeepers) but not good for plants long-term. Perhaps the benefits would outweigh this problem though if we could just dose with nitrate?? Imagine if the only maintenance required was a water change every so often and a nitrate dose  ;)  :fishy1:

Offline Fiona

  • Super Hero Member
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1644
  • Likes: 47
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Having looked at a vid of how it works, any added nitrates would be removed pretty rapidly I would have thought. I've not got a marine tank but maybe it was designed with that in mind, do corals need nitrate?

Offline Cora

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Super Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 162
  • Likes: 8
  • Tropical Fish Forum User
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I think you're right on that, Fiona. I thought all plants needed nitrates but in the sea I guess levels would be negligible.

Offline Fiona

  • Super Hero Member
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1644
  • Likes: 47
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I had a quick google and it seems most corals need nitrates less than 10ppm.

Offline Sue

  • Global Moderator Subscriber
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9866
  • Likes: 403
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Corals are animals not plants, that's why they need low nitrate. I can't think of any plants used in marine tanks. But marine tanks in general need low nitrate.

Offline Andy The Minion

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Rocking Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 389
  • Likes: 26
  • Tropical Fish Forum User
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Cora, I don't know if its interesting but I have seen an article on anoxic filtration used in Koi ponds. Like everything Koi it was started in Japan but a PhD in Europe has also taken it up.
It uses a 'normal' biological process but the microbes make the step from Ammonia straight to N2 and skip the NO2 and NO3 stages that the Aerobic bacteria make. You will also see the process mentioned with the various ceramic filter mediums.
What the article proposes is a planted tub with a laterite substrate surrounded by granular clay (aka cat litter). It relies on a thick layer of the clay to create the anoxic conditions so its bulky and not suitable for a typical filter but it might be suitable for a freshwater sump.
They mention the plants using the ammonia directly but this would apply to the ones in the sump I would assume. This would not prevent the usual aerobic bacteria setting up home on the surfaces of the tank and the outer layers of substrate so I don't think it would completely remove Nitrates from the water. The article is at least worth a read.
http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration.html

Offline Cora

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Super Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 162
  • Likes: 8
  • Tropical Fish Forum User
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I've been researching this subject for a few days and the most comprehensive research I can find ('Ecology of the Planet Aquarium'-Diana Walstad) indicates that plants will greatly prefer ammonia as their N source over nitrates. Thus, plants could survive entirely without nitrates as long as they had ammonia.

So a 'perfect' chemical filter which removed ammonia and nitrites is back on the cards then? Well I guess not, because instead of the bacteria in the filter not having anything to eat (and of course not being needed), now the plants wouldn't; I don't think plants can survive without nitrogen, no matter how undemanding they are. (The plants would compete with the chemical filter for ammonia, and presumably lose.)

So, I suppose one could use the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate neutraliser, but then one would have to dose with a source of nitrogen for the plants. Some may consider this an acceptable trade-off.

But the more I research the benefits of plants (cheap, and theoretically eternal) a heavily-planted moderately-filtered low-tech aquarium is preferable to the 'perfect filter'. It's much (much) more cost effective, and natural.

(Edited to add: of course, one could always go for fully synthetic plants with the 'perfect filter', assuming they were sufficiently life-like. But this ignores the other benefits which live plants bring.)

 


Assess Tankmates In The Tropical Fish Community Creator


Topics that relate to "Tank with ammonia, nitrite, nitrate chemical neutralisers - discussion"

  Subject - Started by Replies Last post
16 Replies
9871 Views
Last post March 07, 2014, 02:38:33 PM
by fishcake76
18 Replies
11851 Views
Last post July 10, 2014, 06:39:43 AM
by Annie
11 Replies
5413 Views
Last post July 17, 2014, 11:24:48 AM
by jesnon
18 Replies
8592 Views
Last post March 16, 2016, 10:17:54 AM
by Fiona
7 Replies
4729 Views
Last post December 11, 2016, 11:21:40 AM
by fcmf
9 Replies
4368 Views
Last post September 09, 2017, 10:30:03 AM
by Sue
21 Replies
8700 Views
Last post December 04, 2018, 07:55:47 PM
by fcmf

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 
Legal | Contact Follow Think Fish on: