Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Sue on March 11, 2013, 05:05:50 PM
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I am finally starting a fishless cycle ;D
I had to put my betta to sleep today as he was sick and would have got a lot worse. http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,104.0.html
His tank will need disinfecting, so I can't just put another betta in it. I want to get another betta, so I have decided to cycle the identical quarantine tank. Once the weather improves a bit, I'll clean up the one I've just been using and that will become the QT.
Because this tank will house only one betta I do not intend to cycle to 5ppm. Using ammonia to keep the filter fed between bettas has shown that 2ppm is more than enough. The bottle of ammonia is quite old so will probably have lost a lot of ammonia gas since I bought it. I will need to add a small amount of ammonia, test the water then top up depending on just what the test results show.
I intend to test for just ammonia once a day until I see a drop in the reading. Then I will start to test twice a day for ammonia and nitrite. I will also need to test pH on a regular basis because of the KH of my tapwater.
All tests done with API liquid testers.
Tank details:
25 litres.
No substrate, ornaments or plants.
Elite mini filter with a brand new sponge as the only medium.
Water heated to 30oC
Before adding any ammonia, the base line tests showed:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
KH 3o Geman
GH 7o German
I did not test the pH but instead left a glass of water to stand for 24 hours and I will test then for the baseline pH.
Edit: pH is approx 7.4. It's above 7.2 but below 7.6 with the standard range tester, and 7.4 with the high range tester.
Day 1 (11 March 2013)
0.5ml ammonia added
Ammonia reading 1.0ppm
Edited to add brand of test kit, just in case it matters ;)
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Sorry to hear about your poor Betta Sue.
Good luck with your cycle!
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Are you going to transfer some media from another tank (or do a filter squeeze) to speed things up?
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No.
If I'm going to continue advising people on how to do a fishless cycle with no mature media, I've decided it's about time I did one myself.
I had no choice but do a fish-in cycle when I first got fish (or rather my sons did, fairground goldfish). We didn't have internet access back then so all I had to go by were some very out of date library books - no mention of fishless or even the best way to do fish-in. Once we had internet access and read everything I could on the subject, I finally found out what filters do.
Whenever I set up the QT, I just steal enough mature media that the tank is instantly cycled. I could do it this time and get a betta as soon as I find one, but I decided to do it the long way so I know what it's like.
I must not go into any shop that sells bettas though. If I do, I'm bound to find a betta to die for and give in and use a load of mature media ;D
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I am finally starting a fishless cycle ;D
But... Who's going to help you when have problems?
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In that case I'm going to have to try and work things through for myself. But I'll then be in a much better position to understand the frustrations others go through ;D
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In that case I'm going to have to try and work things through for myself.
You do realize that will require a conversation with yourself in a mirror. :o (It's not weird as long as the reflection isn't giving back better answers ;D )
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I talk to the fish enough as it is, I'm going to have to start talking to bacteria. That would be even more worrying if I got an answer :o
Fish conversations run something like - get out of the way you stupid fish can't you see I want to clean there, you can't eat the tube!
So bacteria conversations will be along the lines of - where are you hiding, you were there yesterday now my nitrite has gone up again!!
Or I can bore my husband and mother, moaning when things aren't going right ;D
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Fish conversations run something like - get out of the way you stupid fish can't you see I want to clean there, you can't eat the tube!
My main fish conversation is... "eeew, don't eat the poo!" :P ;D
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Added 24 hour 'baseline' pH in the first post.
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Day 2
Ammonia 1.0
No surprise there, I'm not expecting anything to happen for at least a couple of weeks.
Now I know what people mean about the API ammonia test being hard to read, and not just for the zero colour. The liquid in the tube was the same shade as the 1.0 colour but paler. It wasn't as green yellowy as the next shade down (0.5). Just as I was emptying the tube down the sink, I realised I should have taken the top off the tube and looked down through it, something I have to do with the KH tester as that changes colour when very dilute. I'll look down through the tube in future.
I also did the test a bit early as there was still some daylight left and I wanted to compare the shade of green in what was left of the daylight with under the fluorescent lights in the kitchen - they were the same. The zero colour always looks pure yellow without a hint of green under the kitchen lights, maybe I'm just lucky.
Edited for use of wrong word :-[
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Wow - 'Hero Member'. I am not worthy ;D ;D ;D
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Ooooh, I wondered if my status would change when I hit 500 posts. Now I know ;D
So:
0 to 50 = newbie
50 to 100 = junior member
100 - ? = full member
? to 500 = senior member
500 - ? = hero member
Anyone know the full/senior boundary?
I wonder what, if anything, comes after hero, and what the post count is for the next level. I'll have to keep posting and find out ;D
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I wonder what, if anything, comes after hero
I reckon Super Hero and then Leg End ;D
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Day 3 (13 March)
Ammonia 1.0
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Day 4 (14 march)
Ammonia 1.0
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Dear Hero!!!
My, what an impressive title!
I have just stumbled on your new post, Sue, and I will follow it with great interest. Good on you for deciding to do your tank the long-winded way, I'm well impressed with your patience!
I was sorry to hear that your betta didn't recover. By the way, I have seen a few times from people that they have had to euthanase(?) their fish....what do you do? I hope never to have to do it but I realise that's pretty unrealistic of me.
Anyway, good luck with your cycling. If you get stuck, I'd give that Sue on ThinkFish's forum a shout...she seems to know what she's talking about ;D
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I thought it was about time I actually did a fishless cycle so I know what it feels like. I'm helped by the fact I still have two tanks running so it's not like I'm staring at just one, empty tank. The only danger is if I go in a shop that has a drop dead gorgeous betta in stock. I can well imagine I'd be bringing him home, emptying the ammonia-laden water and stealing some media from one of the other tanks ;D
Have you seen my other thread on the betta? I think now it was lymphocystis, it was just his extra thick scaling that stopped it looking white. (Dragon bettas are characterised by this extra thick scaling). The lump did get a white-ish colour on top every few weeks, then last weekend it burst open and was horrible. There is no cure for lymphocystis. The lump was getting bigger and bigger and was touching the top of his gill towards the end. And he'd also started growing several more lumps. What would he have been like when they grew to the same size as the first? But it was his change in behaviour that convinced me the time had come. From an energetic fish that swam up every time he saw a human and begged for food, he was lying in a plant with his fins clamped up and it took him a while to realise there was food in the tank.
Euthanasia, should you ever need it -
For very tiny fish no more than a couple of cm long, you can use the icey water method. Put a tub of water in the freezer and when ice starts to form on top break the ice and drop the fish in. Never put the fish in a tub of water and then into the freezer as that takes a long time and the fish will suffer.
For all fish, especially larger ones, use clove oil. In the UK it is sold in pharmacies in small bottles - it's an old toothache remedy. Put the fish in a tub of tank water. Put 25 to 30 drops of clove oil in a screw top bottle, add some cold water and shake till the oil emusifies. Then pour the oil/water mix into the tub with the fish. Clove oil is a fish anaesthetic, and used in overdose like this it kills the fish. But first it knocks them out so leave them in the clove oil for a couple of hours to make sure they really are dead before disposing of the body.
Clove oils stinks; you won't be able to use the tub or bottle for anything else afterwards. And if you get it on your skin, it takes ages to wash out. I use rubber gloves.
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Day 5 15 March
Ammonia 1.0
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Day 6 March 16
The first thing to say in tonight's update is that I know tests can be misleading.
The ammonia test can give inaccurate results under fluorescent lights, though they usually make the liquid look greener than it really is, ie the ammonia reading higher than it really is.
And the niitrate tester is the least accurate. It is difficult to make an accurate tester for use in the home.
I did the ammonia test, and because of the result, tested for nitrite. Then for nitrate.
Ammonia 0.5 (it was 1.0 yesterday)
Nitrite zero
Nitrate 10 (baseline nitrate was 5)
My ammonia level would appear to have dropped. But the nitrite tube was bright blue, not a hint of purple, ie zero. So I checked nitrate and it's gone up.
Or so it would appear.
I will not believe these results unless I see ammonia at zero and nitrate even higher. I am aware that once every blue moon a cycle occurs with no nitrite showing but I will not believe this is happening here without more evidence. One set of readings is not enough. I've seen enough progression graphs with one set of readings way off the line, and biological ones are worse than chemical ones for that.
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Day 7 17 March
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 0
Nitrate between 5 and 10
Possible explanations for yesterday's odd readings.
I hadn't done a nitrate test for ages. Did I fail to shake bottle 2 enough when I did the baseline test, and therefore got a reading lower than it should have been? Then when I tested yesterday, having been shaken on day 1 and day 6, the reagents were more thoroughly mixed and gave a truer reading.
I am working with a much lower than usual dose of ammonia as a single betta in 25 litres will only make a smal amount of ammonia. When dosing to 4 ppm, it is very difficult to tell the difference between 4 and 3ppm (the colours at this level are 2, 4 and 8ppm) so a small decrease in ammonia isn't noticeable. But at low levels the colours are 0.25, 0.5, 1.0ppm so a small decrease is more obvious. Am I just seeing evaporation of ammonia?
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Day 8 18 March
I had been testing the tank after dinner, about 7pm-ish, under the fluoescent lights in the kitchen. I've decided to test in the morning instead during daylight to see if that made a difference. I couldn't test this morning as I've been out and only got back at lunchtime, so I tested a few minutes ago.
Ammonia 1.0
It looks like the kitchen lights were the problem. I added the ammonia during the afternoon and the first few tests were squeezed in when there was just enough daylight to see by. From now on, I'll test straight after breakfast and by the time I need to do 12 hour tests, the hour will have gone on so it'll be light after dinner.
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Could you test by the (simulated daylight) light of one of your tanks then it's always a constant? You could test a known zero for NH3 by the same light to get a benchmark. It's perhaps not so much the quality of the light as the consistency of it that's important?
Just a thought.
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I get zero for ammonia and nitrite in my other two tanks under all lighting conditions. I've always found that strange as so many people complain about the API ammonia test never showing zero, ever. Apart from this tank which is cycling, I've always had pure yellow, not the tiniest hint of green for my tanks.
Maybe it's my eyes that are peculiar ;D That's not a stupid as it sounds as I've been using eye drops for the last 7 weeks which I'll have to use for the rest of my life (latanoprost) The leaflet with them lists a whole load of possible side effects but it doesn't mention a change in colour vision though it says they can turn blue eyes brown :o
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It looks like the kitchen lights were the problem. I added the ammonia during the afternoon and the first few tests were squeezed in when there was just enough daylight to see by. From now on, I'll test straight after breakfast and by the time I need to do 12 hour tests, the hour will have gone on so it'll be light after dinner.
There's a really good article on here that mentions this very problem! Have a look it may help you ;D ;D ;D ;)
If you have bought the API liquid testers, there are two quirks to be aware of.
Firstly, the ammonia test shows yellow for zero ammonia, then turns green as the ammonia level increases. Fluorescent lights, including energy saving bulbs, emit a greenish tinge to the light, and this can make the colour in the test tube look greener than it really is. Whenever practical, it is better to read the test in natural daylight or under an old fashioned light bulb.
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The trouble is my ammonia results were the wrong way round. Instead of looking greener ie reading higher than the true level, the ammonia test was looking yellower ie lower than it really was.
The downstairs loo, bathroom and en suite still have incandescent bulbs, while the kitchen and landing have fluorescent tubes (circular ones), our bedroom has a halogen bulb and everywhere else has energy saving bulbs. Maybe I should go into the downstairs loo tonight and see what colour it looks in there ;D
Whatever the real level of ammonia is, it's still abve zero and there's no nitrite yet. This is one reason for doing a fishless cycle instead of using mature media. This way I get to know some of the problems newcomers have with cycling this way.
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Actually my API ammonia test NEVER really looks the full yellow colour. It's always a slightly off yellowy colour no matter what colour and even on my tapwater. I have no idea why! It's obviously at 0 though as it's not green enough to be 0.25ppm
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Same here.
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What you read time and time again is that it is very difficult to get the pure yellow which represents zero, and that fluorescent lights, including energy saving bulbs, make the liquid look greener than it really, ie it makes the ammonia level look higher than it really is.
I have never had any problems seeing the pure yellow in all lighting conditions.
I have just done some research. I've done another ammonia test now that daylight is so dim we've had to draw the curtains. I've looked at the colour under 4 different lights. Remember that at lunchtime in full daylight it was 1.0 - or to be precise, a tiny bit yellower than 1.0 but far greener than 0.5, so I called it 1.0.
Tonight's results:
Fluorescent tube - 0.5
Energy saving bulbs - 0.5
Incandescent bulb - 1.0 (same as daylight)
Halogen bulb - 1.0 (same as daylight) [that's the kind of halogen bulb that's the same shape as an incandescent bulb]
My ammonia isn't dropping at all, it just looks like it when I read the test in the kitchen in the evening. I'm going to change to doing the 24 hour testing after breakfast. The hour goes on in 2 weeks, which means it will be daylight later in the evening. This will make 12 hour testing more reliable when I finally get to that stage.
Can anyone explain why my flourescent lights of both types make the liquid look YELLOWER than it really is? That's the opposite of everything I've ever read :-\
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i today just started my fishless cycle. im using 'kleen off household ammonia'. i added 30 drops to my 150litre tank and using the api tester it give a reading of 4+ppm.
my water temp is 25c and rising slowely (im getting used to my heater. il be aimimg for 30c)
ive been reading this thread and seen sues results so i wont be testing daily untill about a weeks time.
once my ammonia level drops down to 1 or less (when it eventually goes down) il prob top my tank up with another 20 drops to put it back to or close to 4ppm
(using this thread as a guide. im 8days behind lol.)
dont mind me also posting my results?
i finally had my gravel and backgrounds and i set up my air stone & curtain wall and now my tank is looking MINT. il have to get a pic up soon ;)
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Tonight's results:
Fluorescent tube - 0.5
Energy saving bulbs - 0.5
Incandescent bulb - 1.0 (same as daylight)
Halogen bulb - 1.0 (same as daylight) [that's the kind of halogen bulb that's the same shape as an incandescent bulb]
Can anyone explain why my fluorescent lights of both types make the liquid look YELLOWER than it really is? That's the opposite of everything I've ever read :-\
Although the colour temperatures of all of these bulbs is nominally similar, and by the way none of them are daylight bulbs, the actual contents of the spectra are different. This is due to the differences in the technologies that actually produce the light.
The spectra for an incandescent bulb is defined by a bell curve. It's a smooth continuous curve shaped like a bell! [surprise!]
However, the same spectra for a fluorescent tube is made up of a number of spikes at different frequencies; So some colours are over-represented and some colours are absent altogether; It depends on the mixture of chemicals used in the manufacture of the tube. The curves that may be published just average all these out into a smooth curve.
My guess is that the 2700K tubes that are pretty standard household bulbs have a spike in the yellow!
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i today just started my fishless cycle. im using 'kleen off household ammonia'. i added 30 drops to my 150litre tank and using the api tester it give a reading of 4+ppm.
my water temp is 25c and rising slowely (im getting used to my heater. il be aimimg for 30c)
ive been reading this thread and seen sues results so i wont be testing daily untill about a weeks time.
once my ammonia level drops down to 1 or less (when it eventually goes down) il prob top my tank up with another 20 drops to put it back to or close to 4ppm
(using this thread as a guide. im 8days behind lol.)
dont mind me also posting my results?
i finally had my gravel and backgrounds and i set up my air stone & curtain wall and now my tank is looking MINT. il have to get a pic up soon ;)
Hi Chris.
I used Kleen-Off household ammonia too for my fishless cycling, but I got different concentration results to yours and 4+ is a difficult colour to distinguish accurately. Try adding one drop to a 10litre bucket and testing that. I was getting 0.25ppm at that concentration. Then add another drop and test; then another two drops and test; and then take an average. I'd be interested to see the results as I was very new to all this when I did my cycling so there's every chance I was wrong.
Any reason you're heading for 30oC ? There're very few fish who like it that warm - I can only think of Discuss off the top of my head and they're meant to be a difficult fish for a first-timer.
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Thank's for that Steve. Lesson learned, I'll use daylight from now on!
Colin - 30oC is recommended for fishless cycling as the bacteria like it that high and grow faster. At the big water change at the end of the cycle, we turn the heater to the setting the fish need. Mine is at 30o as well.
Chris - I'm using Kleen Off as well, but a rather old bottle so a lot of the ammonia has evaporated which is why I haven't mentioned the number of drops as I will have used more than someone with a new bottle will need.
I've chosen 1ppm as there will only be 1 betta in the tank which will need less than 4ppm-worth of ammonia, probably less than 2ppm-worth. And starting with 1ppm rather than 2 means I'll have less nitrite. Once both are dropping to zero, I'll increase the ammonia dose to 2ppm.
Day 9 19 March - 8.15am in daylight
Ammonia 1.0
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Chris - can I suggest posting your results in a new thread titled 'chrisp's fishless cycle' or something similar? The only reason is that it might get a bit confusing having 2 people posting results in the same thread and while we'd know which was which, others might get our readings mixed up.
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Colin - 30oC is recommended for fishless cycling as the bacteria like it that high and grow faster. At the big water change at the end of the cycle, we turn the heater to the setting the fish need. Mine is at 30o as well.
Ah - that makes sense. I read that as aiming to keep the tank at 30o for the fish, not just for the cycling process.
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Chris - can I suggest posting your results in a new thread titled 'chrisp's fishless cycle' or something similar? The only reason is that it might get a bit confusing having 2 people posting results in the same thread and while we'd know which was which, others might get our readings mixed up.
Yes no probs sue.
Still after 9 days your ammonia level is staying the same. I'm sure my cycle will be Alot similar to yours but it's taking longer than I thought. What if I added some gravel from a matured tank and put it in the first slot of both my filters? Would this speed the process up? I know u said filter media in another thread but I can only get gravel?
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The vast majority of the bacteria live in the filter, but they do grow in the biofilm on every surface in the tank. Gravel would have some bacteria, though not enough to drastically shorten the cycle. There should be enough to start it though especially if you put it in the filter where the water first enters, as you suggest. As you can see from my attempt, it's getting the bacteria started that's the slow bit :(
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colinb - you said "I got different concentration results to yours and 4+ is a difficult colour to distinguish accurately. Try adding one drop to a 10litre bucket and testing that. I was getting 0.25ppm at that concentration. Then add another drop and test; then another two drops and test; and then take an average. I'd be interested to see the results as I was very new to all this when I did my cycling so there's every chance I was wrong."
ive got the api master kit and i find 8 drops from 1 bottle is a bit much tbh. i kind of want to limit my tests untill i really need to. im sure wen im going through my cycle il be counting the number of drops i use then testing so il get some sort of average sooner or later.
sue- bit dull me starting off at 4+, when i should be starting off lower. can i just wait for it to drop below 1 and then top it back to 1 and then top it up higher towards the end?
il be creating my own cycle thread soon exactly like this and from what ive read in other cycle threads im going to need a lot of help lol ;)
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sue- bit dull me starting off at 4+, when i should be starting off lower. can i just wait for it to drop below 1 and then top it back to 1 and then top it up higher towards the end?
You could do a 75% water change to bring it down to around 1ppm.
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Chris - if you don't feel like doing a water change, just leave it at 4ppm. When the reading drops to zero, add enough ammonia to get 2ppm at most. It now looks as though high levels of nitrite and then nitrate can inhibit the nitrite eating bacteria so nitrite should be kept somewhere on the scale, and the tester only goes up to 5ppm nitrite with the API one. Once the 5ppm colour is reached, the actual level could be 5 or anything higher than that, the tester just can't read anything higher than its max. And of course 1ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7ppm nitrate so once ammonia starts to disappear nitrite gets high pretty quickly. Once the nitrite eaters are clearing nitrite to zero, then the amount of ammonia added is increased in stages back up to 4 or 5ppm so that by the time the cycle has finished, the bacteria can clear 4/5ppm ammonia though to double zeros in 12 hours.
I'm now sounding like a water change is vital! Using 5ppm ammonia and dosing back up to 5ppm when it drops is the older way of fishless cycling. It did work, it's just thought that using less ammonia until the nitrite eaters grow is faster.
It is entirely up to you whether you do a water change to lower the amount of ammonia in your tank. As well as lowering the ammonia, doing a water change would help you learn how to handle the siphon without harming any fish ;D
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Day 10 20 March
Ammonia 1.0
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Yeah I didn't really want to Do a water change. Il try to keep them to a minimum as well. Cause a 75% water change for me is 9buckets.
It's interesting to see your results still the same level. Ill hopefully add some gravel to my filters tomoz and hopefully il see some movement in a couple of days.
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Day 11
Ammonia 1.0
This is getting boring ;D
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Ahh I remember this stage ha! In my head I think I shortened it, as I was just looking back through my cycling thread yesterday to discover I had the same thing in my cycle (but for some reason thought my ammonia eaters were magically grown almost overnight!!).
I found that the shop I want to visit has a facebook page where they post any current unusual stock... they had the most gorgeous looking betta! (amongst a lot of other cuties, chocolate gouramis in particular caught my attention though after a quick google I soon found they are 'expert' level fish, oops!)
They were Red Crowntail Bettas apparently
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I've always liked chocolate gouramis but their reputation puts me off getting any.
You could always try a betta in your Edge :D They are very variable fish, some cope well in that tank, others are a bit thick and have problems finding the square of surface - bettas need to gulp air. Of course, you could just not fill the tank quite full, but an air gap under the top glass does spoil the appearance of the tank a bit.....
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Ooh do you think a betta might be OK in the edge? My boyfriend might be a bit happier with a bigger fish like that ha, and they are gorgeous looking things! I guess maybe to start with I could make the air gap a little smaller and hope it learned how to find the air. Tricky! I guess I might need to change my substrate / a few things in my tank for a betta? Will investigate and see, though I am rather tempted now you've said it, especially if there was a pretty betta like the crowntail!
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Day 12
Ammonia 1.0
Still!
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Oh no!
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Oh Sue....quick, get some safe start ;D
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Oh Sue....quick, get some safe start ;D
Lol
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Ah but I've got jesnon and chrisp trying Safe Start ;D I'm doing it the hard way to see what it's like.
Besides, with two other tanks with very mature filters it would be much easier (and cheaper) for me to just steal some media like I do when I set up the quarantine tank. Don't think I haven't been tempted ;D
Hmmm.... now there's a thought. If I do come across a gorgeous betta, all I have to do is set up the QT with mature media then when this tank finally cycles, move the fish over and put the mature media back where it came from. ;D ;D ;D
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Woohoo!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Day 13 23 March, 9am
Ammonia between 0.25 and 0.5
Nitrite between 2 and 5
To celebrate I bought a new silk plant while we were out shopping ;D There were 3 plants in the betta's tank and two were getting a bit past it so I threw them away rather than sterilise them. So of course I need 2 new silk plants for when this tank is cycled.
I had a look at the bettas in the shop too, and what a sorry bunch they all were. Clamped fins, bits missing from their fins - I won't be buying one from there :(
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New house...new furnishings! Well... new silk plants anyway.
Poor bettas, some of them do have a miserable life, don't they? The ones I saw yesterday looked quite lovely, they must be fresh in....still only in jam jars with holes punched in the lids though :(
In a way, it's kind of tempting to buy an unhappy one and change it's life, but I know that that doesn't encourage the trade to take better care of their fishstock.
Resa
:)
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They had some bettas in tanks with other fish, they were the worst. But they also had a rank of small tanks with water trickling down from the top row to the ones underneath and so on down to the bottom row, some kind of filtration system. Each small tank had a tiny plastic plant in. Most were empty, one had yellow shrimp, another had 2 male tiger endlers and 2 had bettas. These looked a bit better than the ones in the big tanks with other fish but they were still a bit listless - though they could just have been exhausted from flaring at each other through the glass. The 'tanks' in this kind of set up are the same size as those tiny cubes but at least this way they do have filtered water flowing though them.
I've got a few more weeks before I can get a betta, but I can still look.
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Day 13 23 March, 9am
Ammonia between 0.25 and 0.5
Nitrite between 2 and 5
Well it's about time. ;D
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It's taken 12 days to show a drop in ammonia - I think I should have called the day I added the ammonia day 0 not day 1 - so in theory it should take another 24 days to see a drop in nitrite. Then even longer to get double zeros.
I will be patient ;D
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at least you making progress sue. ive added 250ml of safe start to my tank. so, im hoping there will be some movement tomoz
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Day 14 10.45 (it is a Sunday!)
Ammonia zero
Nitrite between 2 and 5
Water change, just left quarter of an inch in the tank.
Added ammonia, waited half an hour then tested again.
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite zero
And I also checked my pH haf way through the water change when I remembered - it was 7.2 so no pH crash with that level of nitrite.
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sue, when do i check for nitrite? and is it a case of just keeping the nitrite low?
i want to do as few water changes as i can, only if necessary really
can i keep the nitrite level high and just do a huge water change at the end, or will my cycle take longer like that?
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Start testing for nitrite when you see a drop in ammonia. Because nitrite is made from ammonia, until ammonia starts disappearing there is little point testing for it.
Now that fishless cycling has become well established, more evidence is appearing that large amounts of nitrite and nitrate can inhibit the growth of th nitrite eaters. It is now recognised that it important to keep bioth nitrite and nitrate low. This can be done by doing water changes (which you would rather avoid ;D it's easier for me with just 25 litres) and/or by only dosing small amounts of ammonia at the beginning. Small ammonia = small nitrite.
Since you'd rather not have to do water changes, once your ammonia has dropped to zero, only dose it back up to 1ppm or even 0.5ppm. Once enough nitrite eaters have grown to cope with the amount of nitrite made from this tiny bit of ammonia, the dose of ammonia can be increased slowly in stages up to 4 or 5ppm or whatever you want to aim for. If it's done slowly, both bacteria have chance to grow fast enough to cope with the slowly increasing amounts.
1ppm ammonia goes to 2.7ppm nitrite to 3.6ppm nitrate. As you can see from that, a small amount of ammonia makes a middling amount of nitrite and on to a big amount of nitrate.
If the nitrite level does get very high you will still get a cycled filter, it just might take longer.
We'll have to wait and see if Safe Start has any effect. Some other brands help grow the ammonia eaters but do nothing to help the nitrite eaters - I don't know if Safe Start is the same.
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thanks sue, i think il try to keep it at 0.5 if i can, i dont mind it taking a little longer as long as i can keep the water changes to a minimun. i just dont want the cycle stalling with such high levels of nitrite/nitrate (is that a possibility?). i'll do a big water change at the end.
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Generally speaking, the thing that stalls cycles, as opposed to just slowing them down like high nitrite/nitrate, is a pH crash. Nitrite and nitrate are both acidic and if there is low KH the pH can drop suddenly. Didn't you say your water company's stats show you have low hardness? In that case, you'll most likely also have low KH, so keep a close eye on your pH if your nitrite and/or nitrate build up. Ammonia is basic, it'll push your pH up a bit but since there will be a lot more nitrite/nitrate than ammonia the overall effect will be a lot of acid.
If you do find your pH dropping (and 6.5 is the lowest you should let it get before you take action) you can use sodium bicarbonate aka bicarbonate of soda from the home baking section in the supermarket. It is perfectly acceptable to use it during fishless cycling to increase KH and pH, but not when you have fish because of all that sodium. If you do need to use it, you'll remove it all with the pre-fish-shopping water change. If you need it, just ask and I'll tell you the dosage ;D
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Day 15 25 March
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 0.5
No water change; ammonia added to give 0.5
I haven't tested for nitrate. At the levels I'm using any change in nitrate would be too smalll for the tester to measure.
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Ok, will keep an eye on that
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Day 16 26 March
Ammonia zero
Nitrite between 2 and 5
Have to go out so will do a water change when I get back and redose ammonia.
Edit - water change done and ammonia added. Post dose measurements:
Ammonia between 0.5 and 1.0
Nitrite zero
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YOU CAN'T GO OUT!!! :)
Colin isn't online either. Can you both please work on a rota system??? It's scary being left on our own.....especially when something goes horribly wrong!
Hope you're back soon....
Resa
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I'm back now ;D - I've read your other post, Colin's said everything I would have.
Maybe we should arrange for Colin to be around on Tuesday mornings as that's my regular time for going out ;D I do go out other times as well but nothing regular like this.
It occurs to me that I'm always logged in - do I show as being on-line even when my computer is off?
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mmmm... as you can only tell you're logged in when you're actually logged in, and we've no-way of knowing if your computer is on or off, etc. etc., this one might be a bit difficult. ;D
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I don't know....I don't know when your computer is off ;D
Yes, I think you and Colin should definitely liase and NEVER be off together....a bit like the Royal family never all being on the same aircraft ;D ;D ;D
Us newbies are inclined to panic and go in to meltdown.....well, I am!
I have told my son I am having a national day of mourning and a 1 minute silence at 12 noon GMT.
Please keep your fingers crossed that it was 'one of those things' and that my other fishies will be ok.
Thanks for getting back to me....
Resa
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It occurs to me that I'm always logged in - do I show as being on-line even when my computer is off?
If you don't push the 'logout' link on the forum, and simply close your browser, it will still show you as being logged in to the forum. After a period of time (depending on the settings of the forum software) the 'session' will timeout and your name removed. This is the nature of things in forum software land.
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That might explain why the stats page (link (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=stats)) says I've been on here for 1d 23h 39m in total, I never push the log-out button.
p.s. Where are the other 12,500 members???
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'Logout' link??? I've only just mastered turning the computer on! ;D
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All down the fish shops!!! ;D
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I got in the habit of not logging out with the old forum. That had a bad habit of logging you out halfway through typing something. I managed to find a way of keeping me logged in all the time I was on the forum, so I was too scared to log out again ;D It's the only site I don't log out of when I leave.
Since it seems I've been on-line on for 4 days 18 hours and 6 mins, and I haven't logged out since the new forum became active, presumably I do show as offline when I'm not actually here. You'll all have to check next Tues ;D
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Ok...we'll synchronise watches ;D
Now though, I'm curious....(all right, nosey!) what happens on Tuesdays? Is it?
a. Your SPA morning.
b. The weekly meeting with your accountant to discuss your lottery win investments.
c. An audience with the Queen.
d. Your meeting with the P.M. to discuss the future of the economy.
e. None of the above.
;D ;D ;D
Resa
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e.
It's nothing as spectacular as your suggestions, I'm afraid. My mother has lived with us for two years. She has such bad arthritis she can't manage alone. She has a wash and set on Tuesday mornings. I don't drive so we get a taxi down into town, Mum goes to the hairdresser and I do a load of shopping, then we get a taxi home. It saves me having to stagger all the way home with a load of shopping ;D She has the same appointment time every week.
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Gosh...that's a busy morning for you! Hope you've put your feet up with a nice cuppa by now :)
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I had to do a water change when I got back ;D Just remembered to update today's readings post.
Actually, I'm sitting round feeling sorry for myself today, you've been helping cheer me up. Coming back from the local shop yesterday I stubbed my toe on something crossing the open space in our estate and fell flat on my face. The visible damage is a bruised chin and a split lip where I bit it. You can't see my bruised knees through trousers, or the torn muscle/ligament/whatever right at the top of the back of my leg where it hurts to sit down. Then this morning I was zipping my mother's boots to go out (she can't reach her feet) and something went ping in a muscle in my ribcage. It can't be a broken rib or I would have felt it yesterday, probably a muscle I half damaged and finished the job this morning ;D
Yes, I am that clumsy ;D
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Sounds nasty sue, hope u ok
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With painkillers it isn't too bad. I still managed the water change.
At least the bruise is under my chin, you can't see it unless I look up. Now if we'd had any snow at all in this part of the country I would have landed in a snowdrift. It's just my luck that at a time where the vast majority of the UK is knee deep or worse in snow, we've not had anything worth speaking of - certainly nothing that's stuck. I hit pure hard tarmac ;D
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Oh Sue...you poor thing! You see...this is what happens when you go out and leave the forum ;D safest thing is if you just stay logged on and by the computer in case any of us need you ;D
Seriously though, are you ok? You'll probably feel even worse tomorrow, don't mean to be pessimistic, but aches and bruising seem to come out on me a few days later when I hurl myself to the floor like that! I used to fairly regularly fall down the stairs at our old house in the UK and I swear, I could trip over fresh air :D
You'll have to make sure that hubby pampers you for a few days....at least some nice flowers.......or even 'better'....a nice betta ;D
Resa
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.... or a nice bottle of red to help ease the aches and pains. You poor thing!
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The trouble is he's so used to me falling over he gets cross now. I usually do it the day before something important. I took the skin off my knee when I fell over in the street a couple of days before our youngest's graduation so had to wear something below the knee. I rushed indoors to answer the phone and fell over the doorstep two days before the older one's engagement party. I caught my toe on the lip of the greenhouse and fell out the day before his halloween party - though the cut knee and bruises looked the part for that one. I was warned I was not under any circumstances to damage myself before the elder one's wedding, and somehow succeeded.
I do such silly things too. While decorating, I climbed off the stool to paint the next strip of wall and stuck my foot in the tub of paint. I've shut the car boot door on my head. Nearly dislocated my middle finger a couple of weeks ago when I caught it on the bottom of the wall cupboard reaching up for a mug - that still hurts. I fell off the stool I was using to put something in the attic. Correction, I didn't fall off it, it tilted under me and tipped me off.
You can see why my husband gets impatient with me.
And yet - I'm quite happy up ladders, never even threatened to fall off one. And decorating the landing standing on a narrow plank supported on two ladders is no problem. It's ground level or nearly ground level I have problems with. I'm sure a psychlologist would have a wonderful time studying me ;D
Colin - I treated myself to the bottle of red ;D
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While decorating, I climbed off the stool to paint the next strip of wall and stuck my foot in the tub of paint.
Colin - I treated myself to the bottle of red ;D
Classic! ;D
I'm glad about the red.
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mmmm.....falling over?........bottle of red?......coincidence? ;D
Resa
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I think you're on to something there, Resa.
It's a sad, sad state of affairs. *sigh* ;D
(http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2104182/83180512.jpg)
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Youngsters, eh? Just can't hold their drink.....
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That is just cruel Colin. I told you my ribs hurt........... ;D
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Ahh Sue - hope you're feeling better now after a deserved bottle of red! Sounds like you're clumsier than me and that's saying something!!
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Day 17 27 March
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 2.0
Ammomia added to give -
Ammonia between 0.5 and 1.0
I think clumsiness runs in the family. My aunt is renowned for falling over things and we used to say my youngest could trip over a twig when he was outside. Though he has grown out of it.
It's just my ribs that hurt today. Since the pain only started the day after I fell and when I was pulling up a zip on my mother's boot, I assume I've got intercostal cramp, brought on by falling then the pulling action. If I'd broken something it would have hurt from the moment I fell.
I did manage a water change on the 25 litre yesterday, but that's easy. Because the tapwater is so cold at the moment and I don't want to risk shocking my new bacteria, I've been warming the new water to the tank temp of 30 deg using a kettle. It takes one kettleful (1.5 litres) of boiling water made up to 5 litres with cold to get the right temp (the bucket has measurements on the inside), so I only have to lift 5 litres at once. But my 125 litre is overdue a water change and I can't face that at the moment.
And no, asking hubby is not an option. Even if he was willing, I wouldn't trust anyone else with my tanks now I have sand in them ;D
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Morning Sue,
Ribs always seem to take so long to heal, don't they? Hopefully, you'll feel a bit better by tomorrow.
I always warm my new water to the tank temperature by heating it 2 litres at a time in the microwave....I hope this is ok. I don't use the kettle as it always has so much scale in it. The 2L is quite a good amount as it is simple to administer the right amount of dechlorinator...and also to carry and pour the jug back in to the tank...as I too, am prone to clumsiness :) Not much use I admit if you have a huge tank!
It must have been water change day yesterday as that is what I was doing too.
One of my little guppies (the one with the chunk out of his tail...courtesy of the guppy bully!) has been getting me at it! He knows I'm frantic about any more fish dying and keeps hiding (I hope he is alright). This morning I thought he was dead as he was very still near one of the rocks, but when I gave them their breakfast, he lost no time in swimming up for his share...little devil :)
Resa
:)
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The microwave is fine, anything to get the water to the right temp.
I don't bother getting the temp spot on for the tanks with fish. If the refill water is a bit cooler, by the time it's mixed in with the water left in the tank the temp doesn't drop more than a degree or two. I'm just getting it spot on with the cycling tank as I'm doing 100% water changes and don't want to do anything that'll hurt the new bacteria.
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Day 18 28 March
Ammonia 0
Nitrite between 2 and 5
Ammonia added to give a reading between 0.5 and 1.0
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Day 19 29 March
Ammonia 0
Nitrite over 5
95% water change, ammonia added.
Didn't test ammonia half an hour after adding as husband wanted to go to Asda. But I added the same amount as every other time.
I though the nitrite would be off the top of the scale as the tube went purple while I was still shaking it. I've added 3 lots of ammonia since the last water change, somewhere between 1.5 and 3ppm-worth. That will make between 4 and 8pmm nitrite.
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Asda? Had you synchronised with Colin for this excursion ;D ;D ;D
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Day 20 30 March
Ammonia 0
Nitrite ~2
Ammonia added, same volume again.
Didn't check ammonia after adding as the bottles are getting low. They were half used when I started this fishless cycle.
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Day 21 31 March
Didn't test for ammonia
Nitrite over 5.
Water change, added the usual dose of ammonia.
When I say water change, I mean as much as I can get out. That's do-able on a regular basis with 25 litres.
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Day 22 1 April
Nitrite 2
Didn't test for ammonia
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Day 23 2 April
Didn't test ammonia
Nitrite over 5
Edit - forgot to say I added ammonia.
Quick summary - ammonia dropped on day 13 and was zero on day 14 (ie 12 and 13 days after adding the first ammonia). 10 days after ammonia satrted to fall and nitrite is showing no signs of dropping yet.
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Day 24, 3 April
Didn't test ammonia
Nitrite over 5
Water changed, ammonia added.
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Day 25, 4 April
Nitrite 2
Ammonia added
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Day 26, 5 April
Nitrite over 5.
Water changed
Added ammonia
I was hoping that this cycle would run smoothly from start to finish as a demo for someone just starting out. But I'm going to have a hiccup.
My father-in-law died on Wednesday. We live in Teesside (sandwiched between north Yorkshire and County Durham) and my in-laws live in south Wales. My brother-in-law lives in the same town as his father and is doing all the arrangements so we are only going down for the funeral itself. It will be a three day trip. I shouldn't really be worrying about a fish tank cycle at a time like this, but obviously I won't be able to continue the cycle as I'd hoped.
My husband wants to leave by lunchtime on the day before and we'll be back early afternoon the day after. My plan is:
Do a 100% water change the day before we leave.
Add the usual dose of ammonia first thing on the day we go, do no tests as there won't really be time and I don't want to seem as if I'm putting the tank first.
Add a dose of ammonia as soon as we get back, that will be two and a half days after the last dose.
Next day, test the water in the morning as I have been doing (but do ammonia as well this time), do a 100% water change if necessary, add the usual dose of ammonia and see what happens then.
The ammonia eaters will have been starved of their food, but there shouldn't be much die off. Unless there is a sudden spurt of growth of nitrite eaters before we go, there should be some nitrite in the water when we get back. Whether, and how, the cycle will be affected remains to be seen.
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Really sorry to hear about your father-in-law Sue, hope you and your family are OK :-(
Sounds like a good idea as far as the cycle is concerned. Fishless cycling is quite an inconvenient thing, I had a few times where I had to starve the bacteria a bit because of working overnight. I'm sure it won't be too affected and none of us will judge you if you decide to borrow mature media rather than start again!
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Sorry about that, Sue.
Could you, perhaps, throw a bit of food in before you go to let it break down a bit and provide some ammonia?
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Thanks, Jesnon.
My husband is coping well, better than I'd expected. He was really upset when his mother died 2 years ago. But he did not get on very well with his father - he says he loved him but had no affection for him. I'm just worried that it will hit him later.
And worrying about my 88 year old mother. She lives with us and will be on her own while we're away. She says she'll be OK, but that doesn't stop me worrying........
That thought had occurred to me Colin. But which is worse, the ammonia eaters going without for a couple of days, or feeding the ammonia eaters and risk the nitrite level getting too high.
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That thought had occurred to me Colin. But which is worse, the ammonia eaters going without for a couple of days, or feeding the ammonia eaters and risk the nitrite level getting too high.
Remember Sue - you're doing this for research purposes and research means risk!! ;D ;D
It's always easy to say that about someone else's risk. ;)
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Yes, it's not as if it's my first tank and I'm desperate to get fish. I do have to others with fish in ;D
I wanted to know what it's like doing a fishless cycle with no mature media (few newbies have access to that) or bottled bacteria (as a lot don't work). Newcomers will also have hiccups - like Jesnon with her job - so I'm hoping this will reassure them if things go OK for me ;D
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Glad everyone is coping well Sue - grief is always such a tricky thing to predict, especially where a parent is concerned.
Ha yes, I was hoping my cycle would be a nice example for people on the forum, but instead it might have put people off!
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Hi Sue,
So sorry to read your news, I hope you and your husband are coping ok. Sometimes, not being so close to someone who dies brings other emotions, I think. Regrets and guilt have a habit of showing up. Also, I think it changes things when a parent goes...sort of moves your positioning in life a bit further on. Certainly I know it did for me when my dad died 24 years ago.
Like you, I have an elderly mother ( she will be 92 next month). I understand your concern for your mum while you are away. Have you got good neighbours or a friend close by?
Like Colin, my first thought was, could you pop a bit of food in just before you leave or one of those holiday blocks as they might dissolve a bit slower. What a shame if your cycle has a problem now.
Anyway, I wish you all the best and hope everything goes as well as it can....
Resa
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Day 27 6 April
Nitrite 2
Ammonia added
It is possible that by the time we go, the nitrite level will have started to fall, in which case I will definitely add a bit of fish food the day before we go (to allow it to start decomposing). If there's still no sign of a nitrite drop, I'll just add some ammonia just before we leave and some more as soon as we get back regardless of the time of day.
It is looking very likely the funeral won't be for another 9 days-ish. My brother-in-law is seeing the undertaker on Monday so we don't think he'll be able to arrange anything for next week.
I'm going to have a word with my across-the-road neighbour and ask if she'll have a door key in case my mother has a fall. Before she came to live with us, Mum carried a phone round with her all the time so she could ring for help in an emergency so she says she'll do that while we're away. My son and daughter-in-law who live a few miles away will be coming with us if d-in-l can get the time off work so they won't be able to come round to keep an eye on her. If d-in-l can't come, she'll pop in on her way home from work to make sure Mum's OK.
As my mother says, it's only a couple of days.
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Day 28 7 April
Nitrite between 2 and 5
Ammonia added.
Tested ammonia after 30 mins to make sure I am actually adding the right amount and it was between 0.5 and 1ppm, which is what I'm aiming for.
Started the cycle on day 1. Ammonia at zero on day 14, ie it took 13 days to drop to zero.
I first detected nitrite on day 13, it is now day 28, 15 days after first detecting nitrite, and there is no sign yet of it dropping. It looks as though it could be right that the nitrite eaters take about twice as long to grow as the ammonia eaters did.
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Day 29 8 April
Nitrite over 5
Water changed
Ammonia added
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Day 30 9 April
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 0.5
Ammonia added
I tested for nitrite straight after breakfast when I'm not really awake. When I saw the nitrite reading was lower than usual I thought I'd better check the ammonia to make sure something nasty hasn't happened to my ammonia eaters. By this time, I'd finished my cup of tea and was more awake. When I filled the tube with water, this time I realised it was not warm - I'd forgotten to plug the heater back in after yesterday's water change and the water was 21 deg instead of 30 :-[
The ammonia test came out at zero. But I'll wait another couple of days before I start celebrating the growth of some nitrite eaters.
I usually plug the filter back in as soon as there is enough water in the tank, but that level is still below the minimum mark on the heater so I have to completely fill the tank before turning the heater on. That's why I remembered to turn the filter on filter but forgot the heater.
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Oh no! Fingers crossed your ammonia eaters are fine and you've also grown some nitrite eaters!
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Tomorrow and the day after will tell if I really am growing nitrite eaters.
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Day 31 10 April
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 0.5
Ammonia added.
It's looking hopeful. I added the amount of ammonia that gives between 0.5 and 1ppm ammonia and the nitrite reading has not increased.
It is beginning to look as though the cycle will be finished before my father-in-law's funeral. We were astonished yesterday when my brother-in-law finally had a date. The funeral in 22 April, 19 days after my father-in-law died :o . On Monday evening my husband jokingly said that the way things were going Margaret Thatcher would be buried before his father. We never expected he would be right.
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That's an awfully long time, Sue. Why the delay? Are they thatbusy?
I'm glad though, that your tank should be cycled in time....I forget, what are you going to put in this one?
Resa
:)
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It'll be home for a betta. Just a betta (though maybe possibly also a nerite snail)
I have 2 identical 25 litre tanks. One is a betta tank, the other a quarantine tank. My last betta developed some rather suspicious lumps which looked very like lymphocystis, an infectious viral disease. I got so bad, and his behaviour changed so much, that I put him down. Normally when my bettas die (usually of old age) I just add ammonia to the tank to feed the filter bacteria till I can find another I like. This time I can't do that or the new betta would probably beome infected. So I sterilised the tank and everthing in it with bleach - including the filter. I threw away the media from the filter. While it was soaking I got out the quarantine tank and instead of stealing some media from one of my other tanks as I do when I use the QT I decided it was about time I actually did a fishless cycle for the first time in my life. How can I advise people on fishless cycling if I don't do one myself ;D
It's easier for me to be patient as I do have 2 other tanks. I haven't used any media from one of them as newcomers to the hobby rarely have access to mature media. And I haven't used 'bottled bacteria' as I wanted to see how the cycle would progress with just ammonia and brand new media. The filter and heater haven't been used for a couple of years and were totally dry, as was the tank, so there is no chance of any bacteria surviving on the surfaces.
Basically, I wanted to see what a fishless cycle was like ;D
We don't know what the problem is with my father-in-law's funeral. He died last Wednesday. My brother-in-law registered the death on Thursday and he made an appointment to see the undertaker on Monday. That's when he discovered 2 problems - because he will be buried in the same grave as my mother-in-law, there has to be paperwork from additional department to open an existing grave; and because the grave is in a council cemetery in a different council area from where they lived, it is more complicated to arrange. The next available dates were the end of next week - in the mornings. Brother-in-law wants an afternoon so that relatives can travel there and back in a day, and the next available afternoon is in almost 2 weeks.
It seems that a couple of deacades and more ago, everyone wanted morning funerals. Everyone lived locally and it gave the opportunity for a wake lasting the whole afternoon. Nowadays, family and friends are scattered wide. Everyone wants afternoon funerals so that mourners living some way away can travel there and back in one day. My husband's aunt and uncle in the midlands will be able to do this, for example. But it is a five hour drive for us, too long to be done in one day for people our age. We'll drive down the afternoon before and return home the morning after the funeral.
But even so, 19 days is a bit much. My mother-in-law died in January 2011. Her funeral was 11 days after her death, and that was delayed because bad weather caused a bit of a back log (difficult to dig graves when the ground is frozen solid they said). The wait is getting to my husband; he wants it sooner, but what can you do? We are too far away to arrange anything ourselves. We have to rely on my brother-in-law.
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Day 32 11 April
Nitrite between 0.25 and 0.5
Nitrate between 10 and 20
Ammonia added
Up to a couple of days ago, I was dosing ammonia in the morning to give about 1ppm or slightly under, and by the next morning it had all been processed to 2ppm nitrite. Out of curiosity, I tested for nitrite yesterday evening 10 hours after adding ammonia and got 2ppm. This morning (14 hours after last evening's test and 24 hours after adding ammonia) the nitrite reading has dropped to between the 0.25 and 0.5 colours.
And I'm getting increased nitrate. I tested for nitrate on day 26 (6 days ago) immediately after a water change and it was 5. Now it's between 10 and 20. This can't be taken as proof though as I did another water change on day 29 and it is always possible that there was more nitrate in my tapwater on that day. And by water change I mean as much as I can get out with a siphon tube - there's always about an eighth of an inch left in the bottom (no substrate, just the bare glass).
I definitely have some nitrite eaters ;D
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Wooh! Looking good Sue. Seems you've had a nice simple cycle so far, fingers crossed it stays like that!
Sorry to hear about the awful situation with the funeral too. I always find funerals to be a source of closure, so it can't be nice to be stuck in a limbo situation. Unfortunately we had a similar situation with my grandad as he died in December, and with the run up to Christmas it took a while to get a date organised
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I'm crossing my fingers too. I need to wait until I add ammonia in the morning and have zero ammonia and zero nitrite the next morning. Once I acheive that I'll increase the amount of ammonia I dose from the current just under 1ppm to 2ppm. That should grow more than enough bacteria for 1 betta in 25 litres. Then it'll be waiting till that new dosage can be cleared to double zeros in 12 hours. Then wait a week and start looking for a betta I like. Which could take a while as I'm picky ;D
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It's understandable to be picky when you've cycled a tank for one fishy - they've got to be the best! They are gorgeous fish though, I was surprised that Maidenhead had them in the last time I visited - though they were swimming in a tank with other fish. In the other LFS they were all in their own relatively small tanks waiting to be sold. Oh and they even had them in stock at Pets at Home! I guess there must have been a sudden burst of Bettas in the Bristol area or something! Have you got any particular betta you're after Sue? All signs are looking good so far, plenty of time for fish shopping!
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I'm just looking for a fish that catches my eye. Over the years I've had several bettas - crowntails, superdeltas, plakats - in various colours. I don't mind what he is so long as I like him. If I could have bought them when I saw them, I've seen a gorgeous pale blue double tail, a green bodied veiltail with orange fins and a pink betta with red spots. That's the kind of thing I go for rather than just plain red or blue. Something a bit unusual ;D
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Day 33 12 April
Nitrite almost zero.
Ammonia added.
Nearly there. I had a nitrite of 5+ on Monday, and did a 100% water change. It is now Friday, I haven't done a water change since Monday, I've been adding ammonia every morning and I have almost zero nitrite this morning - the colour of the nitrite test (API) isn't sky blue, it has a hint of purple; but it's nowhere near as purple as the 0.25 colour ;D
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Sod's Law will now come into play and you won't find a Betta you like for another six weeks or so! :)
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I'm expecting that. The ones I have seen recently have been quite boring. The alternative is buying by mail order, but the prices are huge and the postage alone is more than I would pay for a fish nowadays ;D
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Day 34 13 April
Zero nitrite!!!!!
(though it was 26 hours after I added ammonia not 24, it's Saturday and we had a lie in)
Added ammonia - but 25% more than usual. I didn't test for ammonia after it had mixed in as my husband wanted to go out.
I've never mentioned the actual volume of ammonia I'm adding because I bought it several years ago for the purpose of feeding the filter between bettas and it has evaporated over time. It is now less concentrated than a new bottle so I didn't want anyone using my dose amounts as a guideline. I was adding 0.4ml up to today and this morning I added 0.5ml.
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Day 34 14 April
Nitrite zero.
That's after adding a bit more ammonia than usual yesterday.
I had been adding 0.4ml to get a reading 20 mins later of between 0.5 and 1ppm. Yesterday I added 0.5ml, but didn''t have time to check the ppm before we went out. This morning I added 0.75ml, and after 30 mins had an ammonia of 1.0ppm. Obviously 0.4ml must have been nearer 0.5 than 1.0. So I added another 0.75ml, making a total for today of 1.5ml, and that's given me a reading of 2ppm after 20mins.
I am fully expecting to see readings above zero for both ammonia and nitrite tomorrow. Once the ammonia reading drops to zero after 24 hours, I will dose the same amount as today, redosing every time I get zero ammonia. Then it'll just be a question of waiting till both drop in 12 hours. I'm not going to start testing at 12 hours till I get double zeros at 24 hurs - not much ammonia reagents left ;D
Because 1 betta in a 25 litre tank is somewhat understocked, I'm cycling this filter to remove 2ppm rather than the usual 4 to 5. That's understocked in terms of how many fish the tank can hold; in terms of how many fish can I keep with a male betta in a tank that size, the answer is that it would be fully stocked.
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Looking good Sue! Hopefully you'll be betta shopping before you thought!
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Day 36 15 April
Ammonia zero
Nitrite between 2 and 5
100% water change
Ammonia added to give reading of 1.0
Interesting. I was not expecting this ;D Because the ammonia I added yesterday was 3 times more than I'd added the day before, I expected to see some ammonia this morning. It is said that these bacteria can double in 24 hours under optimum conditions (and my water is too soft for optimum), so I didn't think there was any chance of having enough to clear triple the amount of ammonia. I was wrong ;D. And because I was expecting the ammonia eaters to only eat part of the ammonia I added, they would only make a bit more nitrite. With only a slight increase in nitrite made, I was expecting to see only a small amount of nitrite in the water not that 2 - 5ppm, which does confirm that the ammonia eaters got rid of ALL the ammonia and made a lot of nitrite.
This morning I have removed all the water from the tank (tilted it to get the last bit) so I can keep a better eye on what the nitrite eaters are doing. And I've dosed less ammonia. Up to Friday I was adding 0.4ml ammonia. Saturday I added 0.5ml, then yesterday I added 1.5ml. Today I've added 1.0ml, and I'll keep at that dose till I get double zeros in 24 hours, then increase to 1.5ml.
I just increased the dose too fast ;D
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It occurred to me while sitting in the dentist's waiting room, that I should have expected today's readings.
It is 23 days since I had a zero ammonia after 24 hours. Since then, they've still been multiplying. If I'd been testing for ammonia, I'd most likely have found that they could clear the 0.4ml dose in around 6 hours or less by now. So they should have no problem eating the 1.5ml dose in 24 hours.
But I've only just grown enough nitrite eaters to eat the nitrite made from 0.4ml ammonia in 24 hours. There aren't enough of them yet to cope with the nitrite made from 1.5ml ammonia.
I have a vision of the ammonia eaters, which are used to a diet of 0.4ml per day, rolling round the filter media clutching their stomachs after eating 3 - 4 times their normal diet in one day ;D
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Little piggies ;D
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Haha hopefully the nitrite eaters will start getting a bigger appetite soon too!
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Sue - I've just realised I've never seen any photos of your tanks! Fancy uploading some for us to have a nose at? :-D
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I've been meaning to take some photos for a while, I just haven't got round to it. Though you'll have to wait for the betta tank, all that's in there at the moment is a filter and heater - and water of course.
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Day 37 16 April
Nitrite 0
Ammonia not tested
Ammonia added
I added 1ml ammonia yesterday and this morning there was no nitrite. Today I added 1.2ml ammonia, a slight increase on yesterday.
I'll start testing regularly for ammonia soon, I don't want to waste the tester liquid as there isn't much left. I'd already used some of the kit checking whenever I get new fish, and you use more drops of the ammonia bottles compared to the nitrite one so they run out faster.
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Day 38 April 17
Nitrite 0
Ammonia added
I added 1.5ml ammonia today, slightly up on yesterday's 1.2ml. I couldn't test how many ppm that gave as I squeezed the test and ammonia addition in just before I had to go out (doctor's appointment at 8:40 so had to leave at 8:10 :o . I did think of changing it when the letter came but decided not to). Last time I added that amount it gave 2ppm which is my target level. If this clears by tomorrow morning, I'll start testing at 12 hours after adding a dose of ammonia as well as 24 hours.
Then it's just wait for a week of double zeros after 12 hours, and buy a betta.
Edit to add
Nitrite tested after 13 hours - 0.5ppm
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Day 39 18 April
Nitrite 0
1.5ml ammonia added
Ammonia reading after 30 mins - 2ppm
I tested nitrite after 13 hours yesterday, I've edited in into yesterday's post. I do my 24 hour tests and add ammonia just after my husband goes to work in the morning and I'd turned my computer off before yesterday evening's test.
As soon as I get double zeros after 12 hours, I'll just do the 12 hour tests. If they are zero after 12 hours, they'll also be zero after 24.
Of course I've got my blip coming up at the weekend. I'll add my ammonia on Sunday morning before we go then test and add ammonia on Tues afternoon when we get back, and start testing again Wed morning to see what's happened to the cycle. If everything is still OK, I'll be able to go betta hunting the following weekend.
12 hour results:
ammonia 0.25
nitrite 0.5
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Day 40 19 April
24 hour tests -
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40
pH 6.0 or below (lowest colour on chart)
100% water change
Bicarbonate of soda added to give KH 13 German degrees
Ammonia added, the amount that gives 2ppm (did not test to check this time)
This morning I decided to test for everything. It was 4 days since the last water change, and with the amount of ammonia I've been adding, the nitrate reading should have been about 30 - but this test is only ballpark so the reading of 40 is about right. I did not think I had added nearly enough ammonia to make enough nitrate to crash my pH even with my low KH but I was wrong :-[ The pH was as low as the test can measure, so 6.0 or below :o
That'll teach me for not taking my own advice to keep an eye on the pH ;D
I need to prevent the pH crashing while I'm away and unable to do water changes so I added some bicarbonate of soda, enough to raise my KH from 3 to 13 German deg. And I'll be testing for pH as well as ammonia and nitrite as soon as we get back.
I also checked the pH of the other tanks as it's water change day, and they were both 7.4 thank goodness.
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At least it doesn't appear to have caused any negative affects so far - looks like your cycle is going well, fingers crossed you don't have a blip like mine!
Out of interest - I've never actually tested my Kh... should I have bought a test to check this? :s
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Out of interest - I've never actually tested my Kh... should I have bought a test to check this? :s
Unless you have an overwhelming need to know, it depends on how hard your water is. If it's kh 3 like Sue's; you need to keep an eye out for fluctuations as it can cause a pH crash and that's bad news. However, if your water is kh 16-18 like mine, it is indestructible and buying a testing kit is a waste of time because I know the answer will be "very hard".
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Thanks Steve - according to my water company my water is hard to very hard so I suspect I don't need to bother then!
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It was 4 days since the last water change, and with the amount of ammonia I've been adding, the nitrate reading should have been about 30 - but this test is only ballpark so the reading of 40 is about right. I did not think I had added nearly enough ammonia to make enough nitrate to crash my pH even with my low KH but I was wrong :-[ The pH was as low as the test can measure, so 6.0 or below :o
That'll teach me for not taking my own advice to keep an eye on the pH
This is very similar to my experience when setting up my 64ltr "FishBox" last year. Though I have to say that my NitrAte levels were a great deal higher when my pH crashed. It was that Bicarb trick that you suggested to me last year (old forum) that helped me get through the problem. Glad you caught this before going away. :)
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The danger point for KH is 4 or below. With 3, I should have been checking the pH more often. It didn't matter when there was only the tap level of 5ppm nitrate and I was doing water changes to keep nitrite below 5. But once my nitrate level started rising as the nitrite level fell, I should have been checking pH. I just didn't think the nitrate level I had would be a problem. That's another reason for me doing regular water changes on tanks with fish - it gets rid of the nitrate as well as topping up the KH.
Several years ago, I got a bit lazy with water changes and discovered my pH was dropping. I came on here to ask (there was an advisor back then) and he suggested I had a low KH so I bought a test kit. Rather than add remineralisation salts as the advisor suggested (which would have increased both GH and pH as well, something I don't want) I've found that doing large, regular water changes keeps the pH stable.
Do shops test for GH and KH? I know they test for things like pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and it would be useful if they would also test for the two hardnesses. That would save people having to splash out on their own testers and would be useful for those doing a fishless cycle so they could avoid my problem.
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I know Pets at Home do free water testing, not sure if they test things like that though :-(
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Day 40 update
12 hour results:
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 5+
Nitrate between 10 and 20 (nearer the 20 colour)
pH 8.0
Hmmm, my nitrite seems to be having a Jesnon-type blip ;D Though I do have a reading for nitrate higher than my tapwater usually is and I did a 100% water change this morning :-\ But at least the pH is now nice and high after adding all that bicarb this morning. Just as well I won't be able to get a betta this weekend or I'd be feeling very frustrated. On the plus side, my mother says she's quite capable of dosing ammonia while we're away, it's testing the water she doesn't want to do.
One slight change to the tank - it's now got sand on the bottom ;D I thought I may as well start growing some biofilm and bacteria on that rather than on the glass.
Errrrrrrm, and I did squeeze the sponge gently in old water from another tank while I was changing the water in that tank. It was quite disgusting with white slime. I originally just intended cleaning the goo off the slits in the filter casing but when I saw the sponge I did that too. I probably killed off the nitrite eaters :-[ Warning to everyone else - don't clean your filter media during a cycle! Or perhaps the pH drop followed by a sudden increase has shocked them. Though I do have increasing nitrate..........
Edited because I've just done a nitrate test
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Day 41 20 April
24 hour results:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.25
pH >7.6
Ammonia added - 1.0ml, less than yesterday
I don't know what happened yesterday. The nitrite reading was definitely at the highest colour (5ppm) after 12 hours. And I did it twice to check. But the nitrite eaters cleared virtually all of it between 12 and 24 hours after adding ammonia. All I can think of is that the drop in pH then the rise when I added bicarb shocked the nitrite eaters but not the ammonia eaters. I obviously didn't kill them cleaning the filter sponge or there would still a 5+ nitrite reading this morning.
I've decided to add a bit less ammonia till we are back from my father-in-law's funeral. I've added 1.0ml ammonia this morning rather than 1.5ml, though as we went out straight after I couldn't check the ppm.
I'll be able to dose tomorrow morning, my mother will add some Monday morning, then I'll dose again as soon as we get back on Tues afternoon. When I get back to regular dosing and testing times, I'll be able to see where I am in the cycle.
8.30pm; 12 hour results
Nitrite 0.5
I'm also checking the pH evertime I test as well. Just the normal range - so long as it stays at or near the top of that range, that's fine by me. I don't need to know the actual value even if it's off the top, just that it's not crashed again.
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Day 42 21 April
24 hour results:
Nitrite 0
pH >7.6
Ammonia added to give just over the 1ppm colour
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Morning Sue,
I hope everything goes well for you, have a safe journey.
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Well, Im back. Mum has fed the tank with ammonia on both mornings we were away, I'm just waiting till 9 o'clock to do 12 hour tests. Fingers crossed everything's going OK with the cycle. It can't be as bad as father-in-law's funeral :-\
The funeral service was fine with sons, grandchildren, great granddaughter, brother, cousins, nephews etc all in attendance. Then we drove to the cemetery to find the grave hadn't been dug.
The interment was scheduled for 3 o'clock. We had to go to the wake, then back to the funeral home for interment at 5.50. What a mess. The funeral director was disgusted, and made some very irate phone calls to the council while we were at the wake. Brother-in-law is threatening to go to the press, local and national, about it.
My husband is being quite philosophical about it, surprisingly. He works for a council and knows that things like this do go wrong. We'll probably never find out what happpened here, but he suspects someone hit the wrong key and entered 23 instead of 22 for the date.
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Sorry to read about that Sue - sounds awful. Funerals are difficult enough without things going wrong :-(
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Day 44 23 April 2013
12 hour results
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.25
pH >7.6
KH 11 - 12
My mother added 1.0ml both mornings when I wasn't here. The nitrite reading seems to be dropping slowly after 12 hours, so still some days to go yet. And the KH level is also dropping slowly, need to keep an eye on it.
Thanks Jesnon. You read about things like this but you don't expect it to happen to you. It's more common to open the wrong grave, apparently, rather than not open it at all; but it's still upsetting. :-\
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Hi Sue,
Glad you're home safe and sound...it's been quiet around here ;)
Bunch of flowers in order for your mum then for doing a sterling job tank sitting :)
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience at your father-in-laws funeral, it does make you wonder if anyone can do a proper job these days.....it's really not a thing to be messed up.
Hope tomorrow is better for you, back to your normal routine,
Resa
:)
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I'm sorry that you got so messed around Sue - really not good.
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Day 45 24 April
24 hour results
Nitrite 0
pH >7.6
Added 1.1ml ammonia (slightly higher than the last few days)
Bought a new ammonia tester this morning - the master kit was £35 so I just got ammonia as I'm running out of that one. Doing a test 3 hours after adding ammonia showed that the new one measures slightly higher than the old one. I have had the old one a couple of years and being almost empty there is a lot of air in the bottles - and oxygen in the air does adversely affect the reagents.
Thanks for the support everyone. It could have been a lot worse. If the funeral had been scheduled for later in the day, the interment could only have taken place the next day. As it was there was just enough time for the grave to be opened the same day. My brother-in-law has taken it hard though - he seems to think it was his fault somehow just because he did all the arrangements.
Update
12 hour results:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate somewhere between 40 and 80
pH >7.6
Nitrite is proving to be a sticking point. Ammonia is clearing in 12 hours but nitrite just can't get there in that time, though it is completely cleared in 24 hours.
Now I have a new ammonia tester I'll have a better idea tomorrow of just how much ammonia I'm adding.
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Day 46 25 April
24 hour results
Nitrite 0
Added 1.2 ml ammonia to give between 2 and 4 ppm.
The new test kit is giving higher readings for ammonia than the old one. I'm inclined to believe the new tester because the old one has had air in the bottles for a while as there wasn't much liquid left, and with the old tester I was getting too much nitrite from the amount of ammonia I thought I was adding. Since I only need to cycle to 2ppm ammonia, I'm going to reduce the amount I'm adding.
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Glad to see your cycle appears to be almost complete Sue!
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Day 46 update
12 hour results
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.5
pH >7.6
Since it would seem my old ammonia tester was reading a bit low and instead of adding what I thought was ~1.5ppm I've been adding over 2ppm, I've probably got enough bacteria for a betta. That 0.5ppm nitrite at 12 hours comes from just 0.2-ish ppm ammonia. Tomorrow, I'll try to add just 2ppm ammonia and see what happens at 12 hours.
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Day 47 26 April
24 hour results
Nitrite 0
95% water change
Ammonia added to ~2ppm
Decided to do a water change as the nitrate level will be high by now. I didn't add any bicarb because it's Saturday tomorrow and if we go to the garden centre where they sell my husband's preferred brand of lawn feed, they also have a Maidenhead Aquatics. If they have a betta I like, I'll get one; if they don't I'll add bicarb tomorrow. It'll probably be weeks before I find one I like though. The shop where I got the ammonia tester didn't have any at all, let alone a nice one. Part of my problem with choosing is that I like short finned bettas (plakats) and not many places sell them - well, except in the female betta tanks in places where they can't tell the difference :-\
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Ooh good luck for tomorrow then Sue, fingers crossed you find a nice new betta for your patiently cycled tank!
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Day 47 continued
12 hour results
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.25
pH 7.2
There is no bicarb in the water at the moment, so pH 7.2 is about right. I'm checking it twice a day to make sure there's no crash.
Plan for tomorrow:
MA at garden centre #1 (3 miles)
If they don't have what I want, a shop about 6 miles away.
If they don't, either Sat afternoon or Sun morning, another MA at garden centre #2 (10 miles away).
If they don't have any, keep feeding ammonia to the tank till I finally find somewhere that has a fish I like.
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Good luck on your mission Sue! He's out there somewhere ;D ;D ;D
Resa
:)
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Day 47
24 hours:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
pH 7.2
So MA 1, shop 1, Sainsburys and Aldi this morning; MA 2 (the garden centre is where my husband wants his lawn feed from) this afternoon/tomorrow. I haven't added any ammonia this morning. Depending what I see I may not need to add any. If w go to MA 2 tomorrow, I'll add some as soon as we get back.
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Good luck betta hunting Sue! Hope you find one that takes your fancy :-)
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At the first shop.........
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Lovely fish Sue - looks like luck was on your side today! I'm assuming by the name that he is called Marble? Hope to see more photos soon :-)
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Oh..he's pretty. I'm not knocking his masculinity in any way, but his fins remind me of one of Ginger Rogers dance frocks. :D
I thought you liked the short finned ones?
I wish you many happy betta days together :)
Resa
:)
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Marble's not so much his name as his colouring type. I tend not to name my bettas. Each one gets called "the new betta" for a few days, then it gets shortened to "the betta". Or sometimes Mr Fish.
I have folders with pics of each different betta, and the folder name is the type of betta. The last one's folder was 'blue plakat', the one before was 'dragon'. The new one's folder is called 'marble' so the pics are named marble 1 and marble 2 for now.
He is a marble, which means he has blotches of different colours. With this colour type, the patterning and even colour changes as the fish matures and then ages, so it will be interesting to see how my new fish alters over time. As you can see in the pics, he currently has a red head and pale blue/white everywhere else. He was in the section labelled as half moon bettas, but he isn't a half moon. I think he's probably a delta tail, I'll wait a few days for him to settle then see if I can get him to flare (using a mirror) which will show what his tail type actually is.
He's now out of the bag and exploring ;D
I got him from the Maidenhead Aquatics about 3 miles away, a shop I don't usually visit. Two reasons - it's smaller than the one 10 miles away, and until a couple of years ago it was not an MA. There was a fish department in the garden centre, run by them, and it had a bad reputation. The garden centre has since changed hands and the fish dept is now an MA but I still can't bring myself to get fish from there after a few bad experiences under the previous owners. But this fish is in a tank on his own so he won't kill any other fish. (I once bought some dwarf pencilfish from there and put them in with my pure bred endlers. Within 48 hours all the pencilfish and all the adult endlers were dead. Only the fry survived. On another occasion, the new fish brought in a resistant strain of whitespot that took 3 courses of treatment to eradicate).
Resa - yes, I do prefer plakats, the problem is finding any :-\
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Good lookin' fish - I'm realy pleased you found one so soon after all the trouble you went to in doing a fishless cycle without 'cheating'.
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I have just found a thread on another forum about someone cycling a 30 litre tank for a betta. She was querying which is correct for a betta, 4ppm ammonia cleared to double zeros in 12 hours, or 2ppm cleared in 24 hours - she had read both were true.
Various replies, most saying that for just a betta 2ppm in 24 hours was fine because of the low bioload with just the one fish. So it looks as though I should be OK as that's what my cycle has been doing.
I'll still be checking both ammonia and nitrite for several days yet.
I got my husband to come and look at the bettas and he agreed the marble was the best one there out of 3/4 plain red or plain blue veiltails, and two red crowntails, one of which looked like it had finrot (or possibly was a tailbiter). They were in those small tanks, but there were 4 rows of tanks each filtered on a central system. There were bars above each row trickling water into the tanks and a hole near the top at the back where the water flowed out and down through a mesh. I presume this water then flowed through a filter of some sort then was pumped back up through the tubes. Not perfect, but better than those stagnant tanks with no filtration at all.
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Tested Saturday evening, twice on Sunday and this morning so far. Ammonia and nitrite were zero every time. I'll test tonight and tomorrow just to be safe, then stop.
Oh, and he is a delta tail. The edges of his tail are straight so not a veiltail or round tail, and they are just a tad over 90o apart, so definitely not a halfmoon as the sign said (180o apart) or even a superdelta (120 to 160o apart).
We did go to the other garden centre with a Maidenhead Aquatics on Sunday to get the lawn feed, and they just had 1 red veitail and half a dozen plain grey-blue veiltails, so I was lucky to find this one.
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As an aside how often should I be testing my water now? Also more pictures of him please!
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Once a tank has been cycled and has been running trouble free, you only need to test if you do something to the tank (more fish, change the substrate etc) or if the fish start behaving differently. If it helps you feel better, then checking once a month is fine.
I'm having to wait a while for pics. As soon as I let him out of the bag he was off exploring. The only time he stops moving is when I lift the lid to drop some food in, and then he waits just under the surface ready to catch his pellets. Hopefully he'll soon realise exactly the perimeter of his new territory and realise there are no other male bettas waiting just out of sight so he doesn't need to patrol quite so vigilantly. That's why the first pics of him were in the bag, I knew from experience what would happen ;D