Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: barneyadi on January 27, 2018, 11:38:47 AM
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Hi all
Will be restarting tank in the next couple of days and just checking best way to do it. My thoughts are to put sand and water in, take sponges out of water and back into filter, decoration in and then restart the tank.
Then after 24 hours put in 2ppm ammonia and test as per normal fishless cycle.
Anything I have missed or could do differently?
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That sounds fine. Though if the tank will be fully stocked as soon as possible, use 3 ppm ammonia :)
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Thanks Sue
I wasn't fully stocked when I shut tank down so thought 2ppm might be better but could always do 3ppm
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It depends on how well stocked the tank will be in the future, and how quickly you will go to that stocking level. If you want to under stock again, 2 ppm is fine. If you want to fully stock but take it slowly, 2 ppm is fine. It's only if you intend to fully stock and do this quickly that you need 3 ppm
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Hi Sue
Ok, will add 3ppm and see how things go. Do i need to follow the fishless cycle instructions as you list them or can I check every day for instance as hopefully the bacteria will wake up fairly quick?
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I would check every day, but if the bacteria do seem to take a time to wake up, only add ammonia as per the instructions - as if you were only testing every thrid day
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I might be misunderstanding your first post here... apologies if i am... but Ijust wanted to highlight that you don't want to put the filter media in water which hasn't been dechlorinated yet as this could kill the filter bacteria :vcross:
Good luck completing your cycle. Hopefully it will go quite quickly if there are some bacteria already waiting to get multiplying. :)
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I might be misunderstanding your first post here... apologies if i am... but Ijust wanted to highlight that you don't want to put the filter media in water which hasn't been dechlorinated yet as this could kill the filter bacteria :vcross:
Good luck completing your cycle.
Hopefully it will go quite quickly if there are some bacteria already waiting to get multiplying. :)
Thanks Matt. I did wonder about that but just dechlorinated the water as I added it in each bucket.
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Well no ammonia drop after 24 hours but expected as been nearly 3 weeks since tank was running. I have temperature at 26c, would turning it up higher maybe help?
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Yes. The bacteria multiply faster at 29 to 30 deg C.
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Thanks Sue.
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So day 2 and ammonia has dropped from 3.05ppm to 2.78ppm so hopefully a sign the bacteria is waking up.
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Day 3 and ammonia down slight to 2.30ppm. A little slower than I was hoping but at least it seems to be decreasing every day.
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The bacteria will be both reawakening and multiplying, I think things will speed up in a few days. Good luck with it :D
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Well seems a good drop today, down to 1.47ppm so hopefully things are looking good.
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What is your nitrite doing? If you added 3 ppm ammonia, and you've lost ~1.5 ppm, that should turn into ~ 4 ppm nitrite. Or if you have enough nitrite eaters alive and 'awake' to process all the nitrite as soon as it's made, that same 1.5 ppm ammonia should end up as ~5 ppm nitrate.
Unless the tank is well planted of course, in which case the plants are using all the ammonia that's disappeared.
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Well Nitrite is 0.10ppm. When I tried a cycle last time Nitrite was always low, not sure why.
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Just tested Nitrate and it is 8.5ppm. Is that anything to worry about?
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How much is in your tap water? It could be all from your tap water or some could be being made by the bacteria.
Nitrate is toxic to fish but not as much as the other two. As long as you can keep it below 20 ppm when you have fish, that's fine.
Just out of curiosity, how did you get 8.5 ppm? With the tester I used to have I could only say over 5 but less than 10.
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How much is in your tap water? It could be all from your tap water or some could be being made by the bacteria.
Nitrate is toxic to fish but not as much as the other two. As long as you can keep it below 20 ppm when you have fish, that's fine.
Just out of curiosity, how did you get 8.5 ppm? With the tester I used to have I could only say over 5 but less than 10.
Forgot to test out the tap for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. to be honest. Will check tomorrow.
I have a Colorimeter which gives the exact figure.
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Ah, that's much more accurate :)
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Ok have checked tank today and have following results
Ammonia 0.14ppm (0 to naked eye)
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 12.28ppm
So my main question is should I top ammonia back up to 3ppm and test again in 24 hours?
Checked tap water as well and only reading was Nitrate at3.20ppm.
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Since your tap nitrate has gone up, you do have both ammonia and nitrite eaters at work :)
Yes, add 3ppm ammonia and test after 24 hours.
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If, when I check it tomorrow, it is 0ppm for ammonia does that mean tank is cycled?
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Yes. Whenever it is that you reach the point where 3 ppm ammonia is cleared to zero ammonia and zero nitrite in 24 hours, that's when it is cycled. Then just do a water change to get nitrate down to tap level, and buy fish.
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Yes. Whenever it is that you reach the point where 3 ppm ammonia is cleared to zero ammonia and zero nitrite in 24 hours, that's when it is cycled. Then just do a water change to get nitrate down to tap level, and buy fish.
Ok, but if I cant get fish the same day, how much ammonia should I add to keep things ticking over? Also how much stock can I add. Is it best to take it slow?
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If your tank can remove 3 ppm completely in 24 hours, you can theoretically add the whole proposed stock at once, provided you haven't gone over the top with the amount of fish :) In practise, there may well be some species that do better when added to a mature tank, a mature tank being one which has grown a whole host of micro-organisms and not just filter bacteria. A tank is reckoned to be mature when it has been running trouble free for 4 to 6 months. Personally I would aim for slightly less than all the fish you intend once the tank is cycled just to give some wiggle room.
Taking it slow is for when you don't know how many bacteria you have grown (eg using fish food instead of ammonia; doing a fish-in cycle) or you are doing a silent cycle with plants and you can't be sure just how much ammonia the plants will take up.
If you can't go fish shopping straight away, add 1 ppm every 3rd day then do the big water change and go shopping. But if it will be at least a couple of weeks, I would still add the 1 ppm then do 3 ppm 2 days before you can go shopping just to make sure it can still be cleared in 24 hours.
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So checked ammonia and is at 1.41ppm from the 3ppm I added yesterday. Should I leave things until ammonia is zero and then add 3ppm again or should I top up ammonia until zero after 24 hours?
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Test every day until the day ammonia is below 0.25 and nitrite is below 1.0. Then add another 3 ppm ammonia and continue testing every day. Continue like this till they are both zero 24 hours after adding ammonia.
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Test every day until the day ammonia is below 0.25 and nitrite is below 1.0. Then add another 3 ppm ammonia and continue testing every day. Continue like this till they are both zero 24 hours after adding ammonia.
Perfect, thanks Sue.
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Ammonia was down to 0.20ppm and nitrite was 0.5ppm so added 3ppm ammonia and see what it is like tomorrow.
One quick question. Once tank is cycled do I think of tank as new or as it had been running for 10 months before my house move is it more a mature tank?
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I would think of it as a new tank. There are thousands of other micro-organisms that contribute to a mature tank. These live everywhere in the tank and as yours has been empty quite a while there will be few of them still surviving.
Besides, where the lives of fish are concerned it is always better to be over-cautious.
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Ok, seem to have had a Nitrite bloom as was 1.56ppm today. Ammonia was 0.33ppm. With Nitrite as it is, should I be considering a water change?
So no new ammonia today. When the nitrite drops below 0.50ppm and I add in the ammonia again, do I add back to 3ppm or just add 3ppm?
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You only need to worry about nitrite when it reaches the top if the scale because with that reading it could be exactly that level or anything above. As long as the reading stays somewhere on the scale you don't need to do a water change.
By the time nitrite drops below 1.0 ammonia will probably be zero so add 3 ppm - which will also top it up to 3 ppm :)
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In case it helps anyone else, both ammonia and nitrite were down to zero today so added 3ppm ammonia and will check again tomorrow.
In my new second hand tank did the first check today and ammonia has dropped to 2.59ppm from 3ppm, so that is a good sign. Was going to add some sponge from other tank but have decided to leave things as they are and try and fishless cycle the new tank.
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ok, i'm slightly confused but it probably is very straightforward. Checked ammonia and was down to 0.45ppm from 3ppm yesterday but my nitrite has gone back up to 1.50ppm. Am I still in the nitrite blooming stage? I wont add any ammonia until tomorrow as long as nitrite is back down but wondering if same might happen the day after.
Any ideas?
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You now have a lot of ammonia eaters which can eat almost 3 ppm in 24 hours (2.55 ppm to be precise). They have turned this 2.55 ppm ammonia into 6.8 ppm nitrite.
The reason your nitrite is going up is because you have only enough nitrite eaters to eat 6.8 - 1.5 = 5.3 ppm nitrite in 24 hours.
Nitrite eaters always lag behind ammonia eaters because they can't start multiplying till the ammonia eaters have made some nitrite, and nitrite eaters multiply slower than ammonia eaters.
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Thanks Sue
Thought it was something like that but it makes sense now.
Thanks
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Back to zero for both Nitrite and Ammonia so topped back up for 3ppm ammonia. Here's hoping the Nitrite fellows get their act together.
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Starting to hate my tank at moment. Ammonia nil, but Nitrites seem stuck on 1.42ppm after adding 3ppm ammonia.
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Patience is not my strong point, and tank cycling is the thing that that frustrates me the most.
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Patience is not my strong point, and tank cycling is the thing that that frustrates me the most.
I think it is the lack of progress sometimes. The ammonia bacteria seem to be working and so are some nitrites but they don't seem to be multiplying, seems the same results over the last 6 days.
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Well as expected ammonia and nitrite down to zero so more ammonia added. Think I will have to give the nitrite bacteria the sack if they don't improve soon!!! ;D
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Try giving them a stern talking to, that might help. ;)
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Ok, rather concerned today as Nitrite is 1.76ppm which is an increase from previous tests and cant understand why as would have thought they would have multiplied to some degree.
Any thoughts?
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Have you added any more ammonia in the last couple of days?
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Hi Sue
These are my readings from last Sunday
Sun 0.25 ammonia (added 3ppm)
Mon 0.33 ammonia 1.56 Nitrite
Tues 0 ammonia 0.11 Nitrite (added 3ppm)
Wed 0.55 ammonia 1.5 nitrite
Thur 0.2 ammonia 0.1 nitrite (added 3ppm)
Fri 0.15 ammonia 1.42 nitrite
Sat 0.08 ammonia 0.11 nitrite (added 3ppm)
Today 0.43 ammonia 1.77 nitrite
Does that give you any clues?
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Ah, you did add ammonia. That explains the increase in nitrite.
You added 3 ppm ammonia , added to the 0.08 which was already there, and you have 0.43 ppm left after 24 hours. That is, 2.65 ppm ammonia have been converted into nitrite, and that amount of ammonia makes 7.1 ppm nitrite. You have enough nitrite eaters to drop the nitrite level from 7.21 (the amount made plus what was already there) to 1.77 in 24 hours.
You just need to grow a few more.
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Ah, you did add ammonia. That explains the increase in nitrite.
You added 3 ppm ammonia , added to the 0.08 which was already there, and you have 0.43 ppm left after 24 hours. That is, 2.65 ppm ammonia have been converted into nitrite, and that amount of ammonia makes 7.1 ppm nitrite. You have enough nitrite eaters to drop the nitrite level from 7.21 (the amount made plus what was already there) to 1.77 in 24 hours.
You just need to grow a few more.
Ok, slightly confused. On Thursday I had 0.2 ammonia and added 3ppm ammonia which after 24 hours nitrite had dropped to 1.42. So why, after adding 3ppm ammonia to .08 ammonia, has the nitrite eaters should have brought nitrite down to 1.42ppm at least instead of 1.77ppm as seems to me I have lost some nitrite eaters?
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The trouble is that our test kits are not totally accurate. It is very difficult to get the volume of test water exactly the same every time, and drop sizes can also vary. And the dose of ammonia could also be slightly different every time.
If you were just using the colour charts by eye, the zero colour would be a definite blue, but any amount of nitrite up to 0.25 would just look pale purple. If you were just measuring nitrite by eye, all these readings would look the same. It's only because you are using a colorimeter that you can see such tiny differences. It is quite likely that the rest of us have the same thing happen, it's just that we can't tell with a test kit read by eye.
I would just wait a bit longer. On average it takes at least twice as long to grow enough nitrite eaters as it does ammonia eaters. You may have had some ammonia eaters survive since the tank last had water, but not as many nitrite eaters survive.
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Thanks Sue
Just getting a little frustrated I suppose. Not in a great rush for fish but would be good to start soon whilst other tank cycles.
Oh well, add more ammonia tomorrow and see what happens.
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Test every day until the day ammonia is below 0.25 and nitrite is below 1.0. Then add another 3 ppm ammonia and continue testing every day. Continue like this till they are both zero 24 hours after adding ammonia.
So Nitrite is 0.93ppm today. But ammonia is showing 0.37ppm. Should I add ammonia or wait till it drops below 0.25. Visually I would say ammonia looks like 0.25ppm if that helps.
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If it was my tank I would wait till tomorrow just to give those nitrite eaters and extra day :)
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Being slightly impatient I tested again now, Nitrite down to 0.33ppm and ammonia 0.37ppm. Would you still wait or would you top ammonia back to 3ppm?
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With those readings, add it now :)
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With those readings, add it now :)
Ok, topped back to 3ppm and will test this time tomorrow.
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Well now i am very puzzled.
Tested for Nitrites and zero reading. Yippee I thought.
Then tested for Ammonia and for some reason I have 1.27ppm? Any ideas? I did leave the top off of ammonia test 1, could that of caused this problem? Any other ideas?
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Did you repeat the test? All sorts of things can give false readings - miscounting drops, tube not as clean as it should be etc.
I wouldn't have thought leaving the top of a bottle for such a short time (I assume it was 24 hours?) shouldn't do too much harm.
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Yes, did a second test and got same result. Maybe a third test?
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If 2 gave the same result, I don't think a third is necessary. Even if it was different, you would still have 2 out of 3 the same.
I would wait till tomorrow, see what the results are then and if ammonia has dropped, add another 3 ppm. But this time, test the tank water after half an hour to see if the reading is 3 ppm. If it's higher, that will show something wrong with the tester.
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Hi Sue
Was a little rash and just topped ammonia back to 3ppm now. Will test in 30 minutes and see what the reading is and then see what reading is tomorrow.
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Adding the ammonia won't do any harm since your nitrite reading is so low. The danger is when nitrite is still building up and more ammonia could push nitrite high enough to stall the cycle. This isn't the case here :)
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Ok, topped ammonia back up and reading is 2.92ppm, so will check things this time tomorrow and hopefully both are reading zero.
Maybe I miscalculated the last ammonia I added, but should know tomorrow.
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Ok, emergency time. Until yesterday I was putting in 3ppm ammonia and when checking was getting figures between .25 and .50ppm. Yesterday my nitrite was zero but for some reason my ammonia was 1.24ppm. So topped up with ammonia and tested and had 2.91ppm. Tested today and ammonia is 1.58ppm, nitrites nil.
So where have the ammonia eaters gone?
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Not sure if it is a clue, but my ph level seems to have dropped to 6.4 from 7.
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First of all, don't panic. You are dealing with biological entities which never stick to a line on a graph.
I know you want to get fish - we all get very impatient waiting for cycles to finish. The nitrites are zero because for some reason your ammonia eaters are only making a small amount of nitrite and you have enough nitrite eaters to deal with that.
How do you feel about doing a water change? A fairly big water change. Then wait till ammonia is very low, and redose ammonia.
You posted again while I was typing - yes the pH drop could have a lot to do with it. Definitely do a water change as that will get your pH back up.
Remind me, do we know what your KH is? And what does your nitrate read as? If you have low KH and lots of nitrate (which is acidic), that would account for the pH drop. A water change will remove nitrate and replenish KH.
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My kh when I started was 5 so will check again in an hour and will check nitrates and post result then.
Can do a water change, will do it tomorrow.
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So Nitrate is 82ppm. A little difficult with the KH Test due to the light but could be anywhere between 0 and 3, would guess 2 so is a sizeable drop.
So with those figures I guess a water change is the way to go.
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Are you using test strips or a liquid test to measure KH? The reason I'm asking is because I find the test strips inflate KH and GH quite considerably, while liquid tests for KH are much more accurate. If it's a liquid test kit, then a tip I learned from Sue and which works really well, is to put 10ml rather than 5ml of water in the test tube, then count the number of drops and divide by 2 - it's much easier to see in the event of a borderline reading.
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Are you using test strips or a liquid test to measure KH? The reason I'm asking is because I find the test strips inflate KH and GH quite considerably, while liquid tests for KH are much more accurate. If it's a liquid test kit, then a tip I learned from Sue and which works really well, is to put 10ml rather than 5ml of water in the test tube, then count the number of drops and divide by 2 - it's much easier to see in the event of a borderline reading.
Hi I am using a liquid test, API. The light in my room isn't great at night but will test today before water change.
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So that is tank water changed. Will do tests in a couple of hours. If ammonia is under 0.5ppm will top it up to 3ppm, if not will wait till tomorrow.
That sound like a plan?
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So have done about a 90% water change today and figures are as follows
PH 7.2
KH 3 ( will test tap water as sure it was 5)
Ammonia 0.10ppm
Nitrate 9ppm (Although 12 out of tap)
Will add in 3ppm ammonia and test tomorrow. Should I be worried by the low KH? Any things I need to plan for?
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My tap water is KH 3. When I did a fishless cycle with the old "add ammonia every time it drops to zero" method, I did suffer a pH crash so when I did the second I added bicarbonate of soda right at the beginning. But because you are so near the end, you shouldn't make much nitrate no so the pH shouldn't drop again
Something I had completely forgotten about - adding a small amount of plant fertiliser. If you intend having live plants, use whichever fertiliser you intend. You won't need to add as much as you would for plants but the minerals in it will help the bacteria.
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What if I'm not adding live plants. Could I still add fertiliser?
My new tank is 12 days into cycle, would it be beneficial to put bicarb of soda in that one? And if so, how much?
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If you want to add bicarb it will mean doing a 100% water change once the cycle finishes to remove all the bicarb before putting fish in there. Use at the rate of 1 x 5 ml spoonful per 25 litres. Dissolve it in some water first then pour that into the tank.
Bicarb is sold in the home baking section of the supermarket in small plastic tubs. You may already have some in the kitchen.
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So tested today after my ph drop. Ammonia was 0ppm and nitrites were 0.80ppm which seems to show things havent been hurt by the drop. And nitrites seem to be heading in right direction. Will add 3ppm ammonia and test again tomorrow.
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I keep forgetting to ask. If I check tomorrow and both ammonia and nitrites are 0ppm, does that mean I am cycled, or should I add another 3ppm dose and check to see if both zero the next day?
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You only need to have both zero 24 hours after adding 3 ppm ammonia once. So if you add 3 ppm today and they are both zero tomorrow, you are cycled.
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Well I think today is the day. Nitrites are visually 0 (0.05ppm by colorimeter) and Ammonia is 0 visually as well (0.10ppm by colorimeter). So am I now cycled?
I did a 90% water change on Friday and my Nitrates today are 30ppm. Do I need to do another full water change or could I get away with a smaller percentage?
Hopefully will add fish tomorrow. Will acclimate the fish temperature wise but in a different thread it seems i shouldnt worry so much about getting GH and KH close. Is that right?
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Did you add any bicarb?
You give your tank nitrate at 30 - what is your tap water nitrate? If it is lower, you will need to do a water change as nitrates are best kept below 20 ppm, tap water level permitting. (By that I mean that the lowest a water change can get it is the level of nitrate in your tap water)
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Hi Sue
No I didn't add any bicarb. Out of the tap my Nitrate is 3ppm. I only asked about doing a lower water change as having just done a 90% on Friday I am hoping I can get away with a smaller one.
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With such a large difference between tap and tank nitrate, you really do need to get that level down. Don't forget that every ppm ammonia you've added is turned into ~3.5 ppm nitrate. It will go up more once you have fish (unless you do get some plants!) And nitrate does need to be kept below 20 ppm where tap water levels permit.
I am trying to persuade you to do a large-ish water change ;D
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Ok, will do a large change. But apart from that, with ammonia and nitrites at zero, I could add fish tomorrow for instance?
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So managed to do a 98% water change. So am I ok to get fish tomorrow for instance? What sort of stock level should I aim for?
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In theory, you can get all the fish on your wish list. But there may be some species that do better in mature tanks (ie once that has been running trouble free for several months) rather than a newly cycled tanks, so they will have to wait a bit.
But if you don't want any fish that need mature tanks I would still say get no more than 80% of your wish list as this leaves a bit of wiggle room should something not go as planned.
Of course, you may find the shop that stocks all the fish you want won't let you buy them all at once, so you'd need to be devious eg ask a friend to buy some of them for 'their' tank.
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Well all seems to be going well in my first tank, ammonia level is near zero and fish are happy.
Second tank has been going 2 weeks or so and finally today has been a ammonia drop to 1.50 and nitrite has gone up to 2.17 so that is a good sign.
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Good news :cheers:
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:)
:cheers:
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That's good news and sounds promising.
:cheers:
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In the fishless cycle guide it says at some point you only top up to 1ppm and do checks every second day, is that still correct?
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Yes, that's right.
The reason for this is adding too much ammonia makes so much nitrite it stalls the cycle. Adding just 1 ppm at least 4 days apart keeps the ammonia eaters fed and stops nitrite getting to stall point (~15 to 16 ppm). Depending how fast ammonia drops to zero after the 3 ppm dose of ammonia in stage 6, that could mean adding 1 ppm in as little as 4 days, or 6 days later or 8 days later - there must be 2 zero readings for ammonia 2 days apart.
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Thanks Sue