Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Afterburner on January 22, 2021, 01:04:23 PM
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OK, so I have been holding off in case this settled but I getting confused!
I have been cycling my 60l tank like so:
Tap water added and left for 2 days.
Test strips arrived - no ammonia on them (damn, rookie mistake) - Trace of Nitrate, 0 Nitrite.
Ammonia added to 5ppm (according to the label on the bottle)
Couple of days later got a Seachem Ammonia Alert (I know, I know) - it was on 'alert' so where I expected.
Each time the ammonia went down I topped it up (half the first dose, about a week to get going then every 2 or 3 days)
It was another week until I got any Nitrate / Nitrite change, and they both went up together!
Ammonia alert showing clear! I thought it was all working now!
Kept adding Ammonia and the Alert thing didn't go up, still showing clear. Read up a bit and saw they are not always the best when cycling so got some test strips - all clear still!?
Nitrate / Nitrite still staying together - both at the top of the scale now.
Changed the filter a couple of days ago but kept the media in that had been cycling with. Ammonia still low, others still high.
Any ideas what I should do? Keep feeding it Ammonia? Water change?
Readings have been photo'ed here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wWUkkkGqRK9dTXXW9
This just in - Last few plants have arrived!
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Stop adding ammonia.
Adding ammonia except when certain targets have been reached just makes so much nitrite that the cycle stalls. Nitrite stalls the cycle around 15 to 16 ppm. As 1 ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7 ppm nitrite, it doesn't take much ammonia to get to stall point.
The tester scales will show the highest reading no matter how high the level actually is.
The method on here (which I feely admit I stole from somewhere else) says to add ammonia only when certain targets have been reached, and if followed carefull will not allow nitrite to reach stall point.. https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/fishless-cycling-how-to-do-it/
As you now have plants I would do a total water change to get rid of the ammonia and nitrite and get nitrate back to tap water level. Then plant the plants. Take a photo and go and do something else for a couple of weeks. Do not add any ammonia.
After a couple of weeks, compare the photo to the tank to see how much the plants have grown. If there is a good amount of growth, you can get the first few fish. Keep an eye on ammonia and nitrite for several days afterwards.
The reason for not adding any more ammonia is twofold.
Many plants cannot tolerate ammonia at 3 ppm (the amount that should be added for fishless cycling). Fish make ammonia in tiny amounts 24 hours a day. It is removed as soon as it is made so there is never enough in the water to show up in the test. Adding ammonia from a bottle may add the same daily amount, but all at once so the level shoots up, then slowly drops. It is this high initial level which harms some plants.
Plants prefer ammonia as their source of nitrogen, and they turn it into protein rather than nitrite. If more ammonia is added than the current plants can take up, bacteria will grow and convert the surplus into nitrite. This will remain in the water until enough nitrite eaters have grown to remove it, and growing the nitrite eaters is a slow process. Fish cannot then be added until nitrite drops to zero, which is a lot longer than waiting till the plants are visibly growing.
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Hi Sue, was hoping you would answer ;)
So 2 things went wrong here:
1 - I added too much ammonia & stalled the cycle
2 - The plants threw the method out the window
Is that about right? : ???
I'll do as you say, although leaving it for two weeks will be tough!!
As you know I changed filter a couple of days ago, how long till I can remove the old media from the new filter do you think (will it make any difference now)?
Thanks for the advice.
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So 2 things went wrong here:
1 - I added too much ammonia & stalled the cycle
2 - The plants threw the method out the window
Is that about right? : ??
That's about it.
Older methods of fishless cycling say to add 5 ppm ammonia and to add more whenever the ammonia reading drops to zero. More recent knowledge says that a tankful of fish makes less than 3 ppm a day, so 3 ppm grows more bacteria than are actually needed.
We now also know why cycles stall when too much ammonia is added - nitrite inhibits the nitrite eaters.
Plants do change things because they take up ammonia faster than bacteria. This can fool the fish keeper into thinking the ammonia eaters are growing well. Ideally, if a fishless cycle is done plants should be added after it's finished. Or use the plants to do a silent cycle with no added ammonia.
Can you squeeze all the old media into the new filter, even if it means cutting part of the new media off? You will already have grown some ammonia eaters and possibly a few nitrite eaters so it's worth hanging on to them. They won't die off while you are waiting for the plants to establish (Another belief from years ago is that the bacteria die in 24 hours with no food, but they actually live for months)
Even with a jungle of plants, bacteria will still grow slowly in the background, just not nearly as many as in a tank with no live plants.
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Yes, the old filter was a bit rubbish - managed to squeeze the whole thing in together!
How long before it's transferred enough do you think? I mean, it's not a problem as I can just leave it there but wondered what the advice would be?
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The usual recommendation is at least 4 weeks.
If you do a fishless cycle with ammonia, it can be taken out straight away as all that will do is make it take a bit longer; but with a plant cycle, I would leave it in there until a couple of batches of fish have been added, then remove it but wait a bit longer till the next batch of fish to be on the safe side.
I tend to favour the "make sure it can cope with the worst case scenario" way of doing things, rather than "it'll be OK, just do it" way. My husband calls me a pessimist so I always expect the worst to happen.
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So I thought I would do a quick update on the tank - after 2 weeks can definately see signs of growth (see pics), levels have reduced to 0 Nitrites and pretty much 0 Nitrates, 10-15% water change each week keeps them low - under 10mg/l.
PH has dropped though... pretty much when the nitrite / nitrate spiked it dropped - ph is now at 6 (from about 6.5). Just tested the tapwater and it is 6 too - should be over 7 according to the water board's website! Wondering if the test strips are just a bit.. carp? ;D
Might pop to fish shop tomorrow and get it tested by them. Maybe come back with a shrimp or two... ;)
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Strips don't have the best reputation. If they get damp they can give false readings.
Have you tested some tap water that's been allowed to stand overnight?
Do you know the KH of your water? Nitrite and nitrate are acidic and if KH is low they will use it all and with nothing left to buffer the water the pH will fall.
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I agree re the strips. My tapwater is 7.5 or 8.0, yet extremely soft. However, irrespective of brand of test strips, they show it to be acidic (lowest reading) and higher KH and GH than it actually is. Additionally, although it's possible to buy an ammonia strip, it's very difficult to read, and the 6-in-1 strips don't include it. The most crucial piece of kit in fishkeeping is a liquid-based one, at least for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate - that way, you'll know if you're cycled and be able to monitor water at least weekly and additionally if anything is awry.
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Good plant growth :))
Agree that it would be good to check your KH.
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/wWUkkkGqRK9dTXXW9
Here are all my readings for the last month, you can see when I did the big water change as the day after I took an Ammonia reading!
Kh is carbonate right? Looks pretty low.
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Water supplier says
Water hardness average: 128.3mg/l calcium
pH (Hydrogen Ion Conc.) 7.3
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Tank looks nice. :cheers:
Those strips are definitely not tallying with your PH and KH / carbonate hardness; they're making them both out to be lower than the situation actually is. Your water supplier suggests your water is quite hard. Just to be sure that something bizarre's not going on in your tank, could you do a test of your tap water with the strips? If the PH and carbonate hardness look similar, then it's almost certainly just a matter of test strips inaccuracy.
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Sorry, forgot to mention I did that earlier today & the strips were identical. It was fresh from the tap not a day old as Sue suggested, will try that in the morning.
Gonna need some new liquid based tests I think.
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My only other suggestion for test strips is to make sure you give them a few taps horizontally eg on side of a glass. Aim here being to ensure there is no water drops spanning between test ‘squares’. Hope that makes sense - when I used test strips (also using liquid tests now) I found this helped prevent erroneous results.
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Your tank looks good, and your plants are doing well too.
I mainly use liquid tests, but when using strips I would use paper towel to remove excess water in a similar manner to how Matt describes tapping the strips on the tank.
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Sorry, forgot to mention I did that earlier today & the strips were identical. It was fresh from the tap not a day old as Sue suggested, will try that in the morning.
Gonna need some new liquid based tests I think.
Yep, sounds like liquid-based tests would be a good plan in that case. I use JBL tests which I'm very happy with (and the nitrate test doesn't need shaking in the way that some other brands without the powder require eg API).