Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Fiona on March 14, 2016, 01:08:25 PM
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I've just bought an Aquael Pat mini filter for my shrimpery. I got fed up having to clean the bit of nylon stocking I used to cover the inlet on the old filter. I need to mature it so was wondering if I added it to my 200l how long do you think it'll take to grow a decent supply of bacteria on the sponge?
I also bought a fluval 206 external for my 200l, would swapping the old media into it be sufficient, or would it trigger a mini cycle?
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The new external first.
Transferring all the old media into the new filter is the best way to do it. If there are spaces left, use some of the new media to make sure there are no gaps for the water to by-pass the media. You will lose some bacteria in the biofilm on the casing of the old filter but that is only a very small proportion of the total number. If you are worried, feed the fish more lightly for a few days before and after. And check the ammonia and nitrite levels.
Whenever I've upgraded a filter like this I've never seen the tiniest blip in water stats.
The new internal.
Adding it to the 200 litre won't grow many bacteria, I'm afraid. There are already enough bacteria for the fish in that tank so they only need to multiply to replace any individual bacteria that die off. They won't just migrate into the new filter.
I've just googled the filter and it doesn't look as though you can use any of the old media as it is basiclly a sponge filter with a pump attached.
Is there any way you could fix the old media to the outside of the new one, and gradually remove bits of the old one to make the bacteria multiply? Transfer of bacteria fro old media to new works better if the two are in physical contact.
Or do a fishless cycle like I did with the new sponge filter for the betta's tank.
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I'd customised the old filter to include ceramic media. I could probably use an elastic band to put the two halves of foam on the outside, that might help.
I just finished setting up the shrimpery again yesterday but I've left the shrimp in the quarantine for now. I wanted to get the filter up and running before I put them all back in plus I wanted to make sure I didn't end up with toxic soup again first.
I'll go have a fiddle nd see what I can do. Ta Sue
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All done and I even managed to squeeze 2 pieces of ceramic media into the inside. I've added 1ml of ammonia to see how it deals with it.
I have to say it is whisper quiet! I've never heard such a quiet filter, what a boon. That said what's the betting I cant sleep tonight for lack of a hum. ::)
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Well just done an ammonia test and there's still 1ml of ammonia in there ??? so I guess the sponges on the outside are having no effect whatsoever, how annoying!
I'll increase the temperature and see if that helps. However I have a feeling I'm going to have to run a complete fishless cycle. Should I add another 2ml of ammonia?
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Will the tank just have shrimps or will there be any fish as well? If it's just the shrimps, you can cycle with less than 3ppm - 1ppm will probably be OK, but measuring the amount of ammonia to give a third of a ppm might not be that easy.
Increasing the temp should help speed the cycle up a bit. I would test every couple of days till the ammonia reading drops to zero, then add enough ammonia for one third of ppm. Then see what happens to the nitrite level. If you follow the fishless cycling method, you'll have to divide all the ppms by 3 to know whan to add ammonia.
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I'll put some ottos in there eventually and I was mulling over the possibility of adding some platinum tetras but I'm undecided on the later an it wouldn't happen until the plants have grown to a sufficient density to provide coverage.
I've just bumped up the heater to 30C so that might speed things up. I do have 1ml syringes Sue, I bought those to make it easier to measure out water conditioner for the 30l tank, I'll use one of those to get a 1/3rd dose.
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Tested the water this morning
0.5ppm ammonia
5ppm nitrites
I'm not sure why the nitrites are so high, before I add more ammonia do you think I should do a water change to lower the nitrites?
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First of all, how much ammonia have you added in total? 1ppm ammonia gets turned in to 2.7ppm ammonia, so if you've added 2ppm that would make 5.4ppm nitrite which is off the top of the scale of most testers.
The danger level for nitrite is 15ppm. This is made by 5.5ppm ammonia.
I would add your 'full' dose and start checking every 2 days. You will then be looking for two zero ammonias, that is zero one day and zero again 2 days later.
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I've only added 1ml of ammonia so far.
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You've got an efficient colony of Ammonia eating bacteria but an under-developed colony of Nitrite eating bacteria, basically that's it in a nutshell. My own fishless cycle at the moment is similar to yours, Ammonia zero but still a little nitrite (0.25ppm). The nitrite eaters are multiplying well though since my readings get lower faster with each dose of Ammonia.
As Sue says, once you have zero ammonia one day and again a zero 48 hours later, it's time to feed them more ammonia so they stay active and don't go dormant :)
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Add another dose of ammonia. If you've decided to do the whole 3ppm cycling, add 3ppm. If you are just cycling to 1ppm, add 1ppm.
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I'll just do 1ppm. I won't be adding ottos for ages and when I do it'll be a few a time so the filter can keep up. Ta all.
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0 ammonia today and the nitrites somewhere between 2-5 which is an improvement so I'm getting there :)
Added another 1 ml ammonia
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Day 7 and zero ammonia today, just need the nitrite eaters to man up now! 2-5ppm nitrite still.
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You'll get there :)
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Hang in there Fiona, it's going well :)
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Thankee, its taking longer than I hope though.
I cant get any fish until the shrimp are back where they belong as they're occupying my quarantine tank and I'm not putting any fish in my 200l until they've been quarantined 3 weeks. Hohum
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Decided to re-read the fishless cycling to double check and have discovered I shouldn't have been adding ammonia every day :-[ Its only been 1ml but you'd think I'd know better by now. DOH!
This probably explains why the nitrites are so high. So I've done a 10l water change but the nitrites are still off the scale. I'll leave it again now until tomorrow and see what's happening then.
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At least you noticed. ;D
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At least you noticed. ;D
Yeah finally ::)
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That's the old method, the one you'll find just about everywhere, add more ammonia every time it drops to zero. There used to be a sticky for that method on here till I unstickied it after I wrote up the newer method.
All you have to do is a big enough water change to get the nitrite reading somewhere on the scale, then you'll know it isn't past the critical 15 ppm.
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The cycle stalls above 15?
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Yes. That's why the chap who invented the new method did so. At 15ppm, the growth of the nitrite eaters is inhibited. And the very high nitrate levels generated by the old method also inhibits them.
The problem is that our test kits don't go nearly high enough, and to do a proper dilution test you need very accurate measuring equipment and pure water. The thinking behind the method I've written up on here is that if you follow it the nitrite level cannot exceed 15ppm. With the old add-ammonia-every-time-you-get-zero method, the nitrite level got well over 15 ppm and fishless cycles took ages, longer than the 7 weeks mine took.
But if you've been adding 1 ppm ammonia rather than 3ppm, your nitrite shouldn't have got terribly high. It might have got over 15, but not hugely over. The good news is that getting it down below 15 ppm starts the nitrite eaters off again.
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Ok thanks Sue. I'm not going to do it now as there's nothing alive in there but plants but tomorrow after college I'll do a big water change and get the nitrites down to a more acceptable level.
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Did a 50% water change yesterday and ended up with 0 nitrite so added a full dose of 1 ml ammonia. Tested just now and there's zero ammonia in the water but we're having to make an educated guess on the level of the nitrite because the colour of the solution in the test tube bears little similarity to the colour on the chart. :-\ I think it must have faded or something.
So we're going with 2ppm of nitrite and I'm going to add 1/3 dose of ammonia.
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Did a 50% water change yesterday and ended up with 0 nitrite so added a full dose of 1 ml ammonia. Tested just now and there's zero ammonia in the water but we're having to make an educated guess on the level of the nitrite because the colour of the solution in the test tube bears little similarity to the colour on the chart. :-\ I think it must have faded or something.
So we're going with 2ppm of nitrite and I'm going to add 1/3 dose of ammonia.
The shades on the nitrite scale are very close to each other aren't they!?
I found towards the end of my cycle I would do two nitrite tubes 5 minutes apart and compare the second one to the first one (having sat 5 mins) to see how much it had changed. It was more accurate than making an estimate which shade on the chart was closest.
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My solution looks nothing like the colours on the chart. Thats why I think it might have faded. Its the chart I got with the kit when I first started fish keeping. I just buy replacement bottles when I run out.
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I have three nitrite shade cards, two single ones and one with all the testers on. The colours are different on all the cards :-\
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Back from my sisters finally and Ive just run some water tests, 0 ammonia and nitrite. I don't know if my son kept up with testing while I was away, so I've added a full dose and I'll see what happens overnight.
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Sounds like you're almost there. Fingers crossed.
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Ta Simon. :) Even if its cycled I wont be adding the shrimp yet, I want the plants well established first and they seem happy enough in the quarantine tank.
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I am considering starting a quarantine tank after my house move, around a 25-40 litre with a bio sponge filter... Is it possible to add bio sponge filter media to my big external tank to start it cycling? Or would it trigger a mini-cycle in my big tank?
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I asked that question and nope you cant, it wont work, unless you have a way of adding mature filter media to it. Once a filter is cycled you can add to a tank as additional filtration and then add it to a quarantine tank as necessary.
Readings today: 0 ammonia 2-5 nitrite. My son reckons he followed my instructions and didn't need to add any ammonia, if that's the case tomorrow nitrites should be definite 2ppm and the day after 0 We'll see
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Yeah fingers crossed you see those figures Fiona, you just need to get those nitrite eaters multiplying... Towards the end of my own cycle the nitrite was last to drop but boy did it accelerate at the end... Thanks to some mature media from a pal...
Said media is still in my external filter... I haven't disturbed it and I probably won't bother for a while. But once I have moved house and settled my tank in, I may use the mature media to aid the cycle in a quarantine tank... It did a pretty sterling job in assisting cycling my 180 litre tank in 18 days!!
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I managed to squeeze 2 pieces of mature ceramic media and a bit of the old filter sponge into the new filter which is why the ammonia munchers multiplied so fast. However it would have been quicker if I'd remembered to turn the temp up ::)
Once the shrimpery is set up and the shrimp are out of the quarantine tank, I'll start work on building the bacteria in that filter THEN I can restock my 200litre finally. I'm quite looking forward to that. I've got the tail ends of several shoals so I'm a bit undecided about what to do. I might start a new thread for that
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I might start a new thread for that
Please do this 8) 8)
#picsoritdidnthappen
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I might start a new thread for that
Please do this 8) 8)
#picsoritdidnthappen
Absolutely! ;)
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I am considering starting a quarantine tank after my house move, around a 25-40 litre with a bio sponge filter... Is it possible to add bio sponge filter media to my big external tank to start it cycling? Or would it trigger a mini-cycle in my big tank?
The easiest way is to remove some of the main tank's media when you want to set up the QT. You can take up to a third of the main filter without trouble. That's what I did when I set up the QT for the sick cherry barb.
When you say a bio sponge filter, what exactly do you mean? An internal filter with sponge media or an air pump powered sponge filter? An internal would be easier as that could take some of your external's media, while an air powered sponge couldn't.
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When you say a bio sponge filter, what exactly do you mean? An internal filter with sponge media or an air pump powered sponge filter? An internal would be easier as that could take some of your external's media, while an air powered sponge couldn't.
It was the air-powered sponge I meant Sue, thank you. So I would probably have to go through a proper fishless cycle then, unless I used an internal filter? Aside from the air-powered sponge filter not requiring an electrical source (since the air pump is providing the flow) what are the advantages of the air powered sponges?
I haven't decided yet but I may do away with the air pump and bubble strip in my 180l tank. I just prefer it without the bubbles (I think). Hence why I'm thinking of doing a quarantine tank with the air pump and a sponge filter.
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The main use of air pump powered sponge filters is for fry and shrimps which are easily sucked into internal filters, and fry/shrimps are usually kept in tanks too small for externals. It is easier to stop fish getting sucked into externals by cutting a slit in a sponge and sliding that over the out-take tube.
They are also popular in betta's tanks as the flow from them is usually gentler that form internals. I put one in my betta's tank as the internal kept falling off the glass. I suspect this was due in part to the betta 'sleeping' on it.
Using an internal would be easier for a QT but there is a way to use a sponge filter. You would need to cycle it first, but when not in use, just run it in the main tank instead of the bubbler. You would need to cycle it to get bacteria in the sponge as they wouldn't migrate very quickly if you just set it up in the main tank. You already have enough bacteria for the fish you have, and they are quite happy where they are. Putting a cycled sponge filter in the main tank between uses would just mean that a few of the bacteria in both filters would go dormant as there would them be more bacteria that the ammonia supply could feed.
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zero ammonia and nitrite after 48hrs so adding another full dose.
I hate this bit, I invariably end up coping a sniff of the ammonia at some point.
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zero ammonia and nitrite after 48hrs so adding another full dose.
I hate this bit, I invariably end up coping a sniff of the ammonia at some point.
I accidentally drew the syringe back too far when pulling ammonia from the bottle... Only 6ml but out came the plunger and it went everywhere and the smell was too much :o :o :o
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This is why I wrote
DON'T SNIFF THE BOTTLE!!!!!
in the fishless cycling method ;D
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It certainly clears the sinuses! :yikes:
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0 ammonia and 0.25 of nitrites :) getting there slooowly. Added another 1ml ammonia and I'll test again tomorrow
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I had my first chemistry set when I was about 10. No health and safety concerns then, of course, and so the first thing I did was to take the top off each little tube of chemicals and sniff them. Went all the way through them, very disappointed that none smelled at all. The very last tube was Ammonium carbonate - POW! Well, it certainly taught me the smell of ammonia and I have been very cautious about smelling unknown things ever since.
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0 ammonia and nitrite.
My tank has cycled :D Going to do a water change to shift the nitrates out, then I'm going to move the shrimp back in. I've noticed the females are all developing saddles again so I'd much rather have them settled in the shrimpery before the eggs move out the ovaries.
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Well done! Much faster than my cycle - about half the time.
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Ta Sue, I guess the 2 pieces of mature ceramic media I managed to squeeze in made all the difference.
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Many congratulations.
:cheers:
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Ta. Just turned the heater off in the tank so it can cool down before I drain the tank :) I'm actually going to refill it with half of the water from the quarantine tank, not all though as there are some babies in there which will be a nightmare to move
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Hooray! :cheers:
It's a great sense of achievement completing a cycle, we'll done ;)
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I've decided to hold off shifting the shrimp for a bit, they're happy where they are and I'm not happy with the way the plants are growing. Too many are dying off when they should be thriving and I think it's down to the temperature used to speed up cycling.
So I've lowered the heater to 25C and I'll add a maint dose every third day. Hopefully the plants will pick up but if they don't, I have an empty tank to work on without having to worry about shrimps.
Ta for the congratulations all :)