Author Topic: High nitrites in cycle (Read 15349 times) 68 replies

Sue · « **Reply #40 on:** April 12, 2016, 01:59:50 PM »

That's a common myth, unfortunately for bettas

Manjr · « **Reply #41 on:** April 12, 2016, 04:06:02 PM »

I'm not surprised that many people don't know about fishless cycling. As I've mentioned before I had my first fish tank about 30 years ago and I've had a few since then, the last one I started about 10 years ago. If I hadn't had to wait some weeks for my tank to be ordered and delivered I would probably not have done one, it's only because of the wait that I started surfing the internet regarding fishkeeping and found out about it on here. If I'd been able to get my tank in a day or so I'd probably have filled it up, left it for a week or so and then put a few fish in it to make sure they didn't die and then continued to stock it. I seem to remember with my first tank I didn't check the water for ammonia, nitrates or anything else, I didn't do water changes, just topped it up from the tap when the level dropped below the angle iron rim. What I'm trying to say is a lot of people who've been keeping fish for a long time just continue doing what they've always done. The fishless cycle could deprive the LFS of a sale of fish, once someone has the tank they might see prettier fish somewhere else. Also there is as far as I know only one fishkeeping mag PFK and it's not something that is stocked widely. I've only ever seen it in WH Smiths so the average fishkeeper may never have seen a copy never mind bought one. Sorry, this isn't meant to be a rant but just my observations. This forum is full of people who've never heard of cycling, either with or without fish and I've even seen posts on here from people who don't want to do a fishless cycle but want to use fish. In a way it's understandable, who wants to sit and look at an empty tank for four to six weeks.

Extreme_One · « **Reply #42 on:** April 12, 2016, 04:43:06 PM »

The hobby is also full of people that believe a Goldfish belongs in a bowl and a Betta lives in a puddle in the wild.

In years gone by, before the Nitrogen Cycle was understood, it was generally accepted that fish didn't tend to have long lives in tanks and bowls. Of course that was true then, because most of us had been doing it wrong.

I worked in a large aquatic store when I was 15 and 16 and fishless cycling was unheard of.
Everyone did the fish-in method, not by choice and not with any understanding of what was happening, but because the nitrogen cycle takes over eventually whether we plan for it or not.

Thankfully, (most) humans have the capacity to learn from our mistakes.

What annoys me is that, in this day and age of free and easy access to information, people are still so often being given poor advice when they buy their fishtank.

There's just no reasonable excuse not to do it properly now.

"Who wants to look at an empty fish tank" ... ?
I'd think most people would prefer to look at an empty tank for a few weeks rather than a tank full of dead or dying fish.
If it were explained, by the LFS when selling the tank, in those terms most people would appreciate the good advice, especially given the costs involved.

Sue · « **Reply #43 on:** April 12, 2016, 05:08:53 PM »

There are a few reasons why fishkeeping has become more 'difficult' in recent years.

The source of the bacteria is our tapwater and it is thought that water companies have got better at killing bacteria so we have a lot fewer going into our tanks than a few decades ago - so it takes longer to build up the colonies.
We now have a wider choice of fish, and a lot of them are quite delicate. Just topping up water leads to high nitrate and hormones etc in the water, and there are many fish now that just can't cope with this.
Even the fish that have been in the hobby for decades are not a hardy as they used t be because of the way they are farmed. Some are raised in poor conditions, leading to sickly fish in the shops. Others are inbred and breeders do not select the best quality specimens to breed from so any genetic problems become set into the offspring; guppies are the classic example of this, they used to be hardy fish but are anything but hardy nowadays.

And don't forget humans have turned into "I want it and I want it now". No-one is prepared to wait for anything. Even the older fish-in cycling, where fish are added a few at a time over a period, is not fast enough.

Richard W · « **Reply #44 on:** April 12, 2016, 05:18:09 PM »

(Written before Sue's post)
I don't think the highly detailed ammonia method is absolutely necessary, more that it's a safe way for people to start who don't know what they're doing. It's only been around for a few years and it would be absurd to suggest that everybody before that was a terrible monster who tortured their fish by subjecting them to water full of ammonia.

Consider this, if you start with a planted tank and have a filter with some starter bacteria e.g a piece of used media or some muck squeezed out of an old filter than you will already have enough to start stocking at a low level. Using soil under the substrate will help greatly as that will also contain a few billion bacteria. The reasons people spend weeks cycling their tanks are :
a) they start with nothing but tap water, which by definition should be pretty well sterile and devoid of bacteria, not surprising that it takes ages for a sufficient number to develop
b) as noted, the full cycle enables you to heavily stock in one go, something which very few people seem to do (though I did). It isn't necessary to go that far if you want to add fish a few at a time, you just need to ensure that the cycle has started.

The real problem is with people who buy a tank, put nothing but gravel and "ornaments" in it, fill it with water and then with fish, usually unsuitable ones. There are perfectly acceptable methods between this extreme and the long ammonia method.

Manjr · « **Reply #45 on:** April 12, 2016, 05:28:12 PM »

Extreme one, I agree that if people knew the reasoning behind the cycle then most would employ it but as you say if the LFS aren't behind it it's going to be an uphill battle. I bought my latest tank from MA but nobody so much as mentioned the cycle, and they seem to be becoming a very large presence in our hobby, they seem to have branches everywhere. They didn't ask if I'd kept fish before nor if I had any idea what I was doing. I'm not singling them out, whilst I was looking for a tank no LFS asked me any questions except "how do you want to pay" I think that says it all. Sue, you may also be right about the 'I want it now' mentality but the main problem is still that few if any people who sell the fish and equipment even mention it. I am certainly not branding anyone a monster, I've done all the wrong things the wrong way in my time but I don't consider myself a monster, just ignorant of the facts because nobody told me or even pointed me in the right direction I didn't set out to cause pain or suffering to fish I just didn't know any better.

Extreme_One · « **Reply #46 on:** April 12, 2016, 05:43:32 PM »

Manjr I agree with you. I want implying you, or anyone else that has suffered bad advice, is a monster.

I fell foul of bad advice too.

I bought a 20L tank for the boys' bedroom - I was advised to fill with tap water add water conditioner and leave for a week before bringing 10ml of tank water to the shop for testing.

They tested the water and said "It's fine, you can add fish now".

I added six male guppies and wondered why one died about 9 days after. Then a few days later another died and another one was looking decidedly peaky.

It was only then that I did my research on the internet and discovered the nitrogen cycle.

Now, I could have (should have!) done the research first. And I still regret that I didn't.
However, I was under the impression that, the advice I'd been given was good. I was after all talking to the experts!

fcmf · « **Reply #47 on:** April 12, 2016, 06:37:09 PM »

Very interesting and very useful points raised in the various posts above.

The following might make interesting reading:
* http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=1567 [a survey undertaken of LFSs and their approaches - 2008]
* https://fishkeeper.co.uk/further-info/faqs/how-long-do-i-need-to-leave-my-tropical-tank-before-i-can-add-my-first-fish and https://fishkeeper.co.uk/further-info/faqs/why-do-i-need-to-add-bacteria-e-g-aquarium-munster-s-bactosprint-to-my-tank [MA's views on the issue of fishless cycling]
* https://www.dobbies.com/media/2041941/APETS_8988-Freshwater-Aquarium-leaflet-EXPRINT.pdf [available via https://www.dobbies.com/ideas-advice/pet-care/how-to-set-up-maintain-a-freshwater-aquarium/ - Dobbies' views on the issue of cycling in "Maturing your tank" section]
* http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/advice/fish-care-advice/setting-up-your-aquarium [PAH's views on the issue in "Fill your tank" section at bottom of page]

Of course, whether and the extent to which any such advice is conveyed to customers generally tends to depend on the individual sales assistant, many of whom are just that rather than experts or experienced fishkeepers. The stores which specialise in aquatics/fish, rather than a wide range of animals, have a greater chance of having experts/experienced fishkeepers in them.

As for fishkeeping magazines, PFK is one of several. I'm fortunate in that there's a wonderful chain of stores, with one close to my parents' home, selling every magazine imaginable (and well beyond) in it, so my parents post every edition of PFK to me. PFK can also now be posted out directly to people's homes http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=7038 for those unable to get to shops.

Hope that's helpful.

Manjr · « **Reply #48 on:** April 12, 2016, 06:45:10 PM »

That's interesting, I have subscribed to PFK so do get it delivered now, I got sick of having to get down on the floor looking for it in Smiths. I don't know of any other mags, what are they called I'll keep an eye out for them.

fcmf · « **Reply #49 on:** April 12, 2016, 06:52:32 PM »

I'll get my parents to check next time they're at the store and let you know. Last time I was over there and in the store, the others didn't seem anywhere nearly as good - mainly adverts and little substance.

Richard W · « **Reply #50 on:** April 12, 2016, 06:54:37 PM »

What puts me off PFK is that it seems to emphasise expensive kit. When they do an article on a specific set up, they often spend more on a filter or lighting than I would on a whole tank completely equipped and stocked with fish. I do wonder if that's to keep their advertisers happy. It's not uncommon for them to say something like "and it only cost us £1200, which we think is very reasonable". This for a fairly small tank, £350 for an external filter, £250 for some flashy lighting system, £50 for some brand name special substrate and so on. This is entirely from reading their on line articles, not the paper version. There are some interesting articles, I agree.

fcmf · « **Reply #51 on:** April 12, 2016, 07:14:15 PM »

I agree, R - there are many articles which I read "with a pinch of salt" (such as those you describe) and others (mainly options of fish for certain sizes of tank or articles on certain species of fish) which I find particularly interesting. You may well be correct in that their advertising is more subtle than those in the other fishkeeping magazines, and they have a tendency to slip in statements that make you think "hmmm - I could do with that item" when actually it's not necessary at all.

Manjr · « **Reply #52 on:** April 13, 2016, 08:10:42 AM »

Morning all. Just to get back on track, I did an 80% water change yesterday afternoon then added 1ml of ammonia as a double check and in case I couldn't get to LFS. Did a check of water this morning and amm 0, nitrites 0, pH 7.6 and nitrates around 40. So all looks well and will be able to buy some fish

. I'm going to a shop in Salford that I haven't been to before but apparently has a v good reputation, at least for fish. It is in the PFK top 40. Unfortunately I have to take my wife, she wants to look in The Lowry shopping mall as we are looking for clothes to wear at my nephew's wedding in Italy later in the year and 'it's on the way'. The problem is going to be that she likes big colourful fish so she's likely to be disappointed with my choices.

Littlefish · « **Reply #53 on:** April 13, 2016, 08:25:22 AM »

I hope you have a great day and enjoy your fish shopping.
Please update us later, preferably with photos of your new fish.

Fiona · « **Reply #54 on:** April 13, 2016, 11:26:00 AM »

Quote from: Manjr on April 13, 2016, 08:10:42 AM

Unfortunately I have to take my wife

I prefer going on my own too

fcmf · « **Reply #55 on:** April 13, 2016, 12:43:54 PM »

In the event of difficulty, the bottom line is that the ultimate choice comes down to whoever is doing the tank maintenance.

Sue · « **Reply #56 on:** April 13, 2016, 01:36:07 PM »

Quote from: Manjr on April 13, 2016, 08:10:42 AM

The problem is going to be that she likes big colourful fish so she's likely to be disappointed with my choices.

That sounds like my husband. He is always drawn to the tanks with oscars and discus. My response is usually 'let me get a 5 foot tank and I'll get some'. That hasn't worked yet

Fiona · « **Reply #57 on:** April 13, 2016, 03:10:26 PM »

Keep trying Sue, you never know, you might get lucky one day

Manjr · « **Reply #58 on:** April 13, 2016, 06:58:43 PM »

I tried twice to post a pic but failed I've resized it so will try again. I have up on the shop in Salford, it's almost in the centre of the city and roadworks and traffic made me give up. Went to MA at Knutsford and bought these dozen.

fcmf · « **Reply #59 on:** April 13, 2016, 07:16:30 PM »

The tank looks really lovely, Manjr. Sorry that city-centre traffic and roadworks meant that the Salford shop wasn't an option but glad you got to Knutsford. Can you tell us what species your dozen fish are? I can see them but not clearly enough to work out what they are.

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High Nitrites In Cycle

High Nitrites In Cycle

Author Topic: High nitrites in cycle (Read 15349 times) 68 replies

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