Tropical Fish Forum

Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Paddy60 on December 11, 2016, 10:29:22 AM

Title: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 11, 2016, 10:29:22 AM
started cycling my 120ltr tank five weeks ago ,dosed filter sponges with dirty water from my small tank(cycled).
Started getting good readings ammonia nitrate nitrates,then after two weeks after redosing to 3ppm ammonia it would not drop, i had added all the artificial plants and ornaments ,and i think i used some aquacare bio boost .
Something seemed to have stooped the cycle. I did an 80% water change and dosed to 3ppm ammonia ,starting cycle over again.Am now 21 days in and ammonia has not moved from 3ppm.I am now a bit concerened because of the stop in cycle after two weeks ,and now three weeks in after starting again,and no change . So does this look ok,on track, or any steps  i need  to take please ?
appolagies if i have posted about cycling this tank before
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on December 11, 2016, 11:18:09 AM
It took 28 days for my ammonia to drop. If it wasn't for the fact that I already had three tanks running I would have got very frustrated (it was a sponge filter to replace the internal in my betta's tank and I cycled it in the quarantine tank).

Is it possible to take a bit of actual media from your small tank and put that inside the bigger tank's filter? It is safe to take up a third of the media from an established filter, though it is wise to keep an eye on the ammonia & nitrite in that tank for a few days.
The water from the small tank would have had virtually no filter bacteria in it because they are attached to surfaces not free floating. But the bacteria are attached to filter media, which is why using media works better.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 11, 2016, 02:12:05 PM
ok thanks sue, so yours didnt drop at all for 28 days ?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on December 11, 2016, 02:43:57 PM
This is the data I recorded for the fishless cycle I did in Jan 2016

Because this tank is 26 litres and has just one male betta and one small nerite snail, I initially added ammonia to just 1 to 2 ppm as this is more than enough for that bioload. The colour was between 1 and 2.


Day 1 - added ammonia Stage #1
Day 4 - no change
Day 7 - no change
Day 10 - no change
Day 13 - no change
Day 16 - ammonia still same but just a hint of nitrite though still well below 0.25
Day 19 - same as day 16
Day 21 - ammonia still showing between 1 and 2 and nitrite the merest hint. Got frustrated and did a 100% water change then added ammonia to give a reading between 2 and 4 ppm.
Day 24 - ammonia between 1 and 2, nitrite 0. The ammonia dropped from 2 - 4 to 1 -2 but no idea where it went.
Day 26 - tested after 2 days because getting fed up. Ammonia 1 to 2. Nitrite merest hint.
Day 28 - ammonia 0.5 nitrite > 5 (off the top of the chart). Added ammonia to ~ 3ppm Stage #6
Day 30 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5
Day 32 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5. Zero ammonia on 2 test 2 days apart, added the one third dose of ammonia. Stage #8
Day 34 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5
Day 36 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5. Zero ammonia in 2 tests 2 day apart, added the one third dose of ammonia Stage #8 again
Day 38 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5
Day 40 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5. Zero ammonia on 2 tests 2 days apart, added a one third dose of ammonia. Stage #8 again
Day 42 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Added a 2 to 4 ppm dose ammonia Stage #10
Day 43 - ammonia 0.25, nitrite 1.0
Day 44 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Added 2 to 4 ppm ammonia. Stage #10 again Then power went off for 4 hours.
Day 45 - ammonia 0, nitrite 2 - was the cycle affected by the power cut?
Day 46 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Added ammonia to 2 to 4 ppm Stage #10 again
Day 47 - ammonia 0, nitrite between 0.5 and 1. Added ammonia to between 2 and 4 ppm Stage #10 yet again
Day 48 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Finally stage #14

Ammonia and nitrite both zero 24 hours after adding full dose ammonia = cycle finished.



As you can see, ammonia finally dropped on day 28. And nitrite dropped from off the top of the chart to zero between days 40 and 42.


Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 11, 2016, 03:09:20 PM
great alot of help ,gives me some idea now,thanks sue  :)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 25, 2016, 09:29:04 AM
38 days into cycle no change, ammonia still 3ppm ,nitrite 0 ,nitrates same as tap water 10ppm ,chlorines 0
Still concerned , are some of the artificial plants and ornaments affecting the cycle ?
Have added another dose of water conditioner for 120ltrs to the tank.
I am going to add a bag of bio max from my 23ltr cycled tank to try and kick start , have three bags of bio rings and af isponge in small tank ,so one bag less ,is less than 1/3 of bio filter as advised by @Sue .
Still concerened about plants etc .Has any one else had any problems with artificial decor and cycling ?

ps Happy christmas all
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on December 25, 2016, 10:30:03 AM
The plants etc won't cause a problem, the cycled media should make a massive difference though
  :cheers:
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 25, 2016, 10:41:39 AM
ok thanks Matt.  :cheers:
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 26, 2016, 06:31:49 PM
any body know anthing about acuacare bio boost? does it do the same as tetra safe start?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on December 26, 2016, 07:17:17 PM
As far as I'm aware, there are only two 'bottled bacteria' products that contain the correct species of nitrite eating bacteria - Dr Tim's One & Only (very hard to get outside the USA) and Tetra Safe Start.
At first it was thought that the nitrite eaters were the same species found in waste treatment works (Nitrobacter), then Dr Tim Hovanec, working for an American company which has since been taken over by Tetra, discovered the correct species which grows in aquaria (Nitrospira). The use of this species was copyrighted or whatever the correct term is so that only he and Tetra can make a bottled bacteria containing this species.

Most other products do contain the right ammonia eaters, just the wrong nitrite eaters.

It could still be worth trying a different brand of bottled bacteria, it should help kick start the ammonia eaters.
The correct species of nitrite eaters function at the low concentrations found in tank, but the wrong ones need higher concentrations of nitrite. These bacteria will help during cycling where the amount of nitrite is high compared to in a cycled tank, but will die off as the level drops, something to bear in mind when interpreting test results.




If anyone knows of any other product which contains Nitrospira rather than Nitrobacter, please let us know.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 29, 2016, 03:18:28 PM
realy getting stressed out now,read evrything i can and still no results .cycled my 23ltr tank lately and all is going fine but cannot get my 120ltr to cycle. so hears the update ,seeded 120tank with dirty water from 23ltr tank got good reedings and all looking good , added all the decor , redosed to 3ppm ammonia then it would not drop.Did 80%water change and re dosed to 3ppm.I am now at 44days since that water change no drop in ammonia,added a bag of biomax from small tank to this filter three days ago,also started adding pinch of crumbled fish flakes every day, turned of air pump incase flow to great ,added tetra safe start 24hrs ago ,STILL NO DROP still concerns me why i had readings and a liitle while after adding decor stuck at 3ppm ammonia.
So still no drop urgent advise what to do needed as it seems nothing working please please please
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on December 29, 2016, 03:37:42 PM
Hi @Paddy60

Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with your 120L tank.
I would have thought that the bag of biomax from the small tank would have helped. Have you put them in to your filter - that will help the bacteria on the biomax grow into your filter media.
Have you had any problems with your pH? Just a wild shot but thought I'd ask because a drop in pH can cause a cycle to crash.

I'm no @Sue  when it comes to cycling tanks, and my experience has generally been with having a lot of mature media available from several tanks to be able to move into a new tank, so any cycling I deal with tends to have had a very big kick start. It has been over a year since I've had to cycle a tank "properly" rather than just moving mature media around. I've not used products like Bio Boost or Safe Start, so can't comment on them.

If it is any help then I am more than happy to send you a larger amount of mature media to help you with your tank. It may have to wait until the new year as I can't imagine what the postal service would be like until then, but it might be worth a go.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 29, 2016, 03:49:57 PM
hi @Littlefish thanks for your replie i will see if @Sue  has any ideas why this is not happening then i will take you up on your offer of sending me some media.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on December 29, 2016, 04:59:06 PM
The biomax should have done something.


Is there any possibility something is in the tank that shouldn't be? You've used dechlorinator - which one? - so there shouldn't be any chlorine in there.
Did you use anything to clean the tank before starting the cycle? Any trace of a cleaner could do harm.
Are the two tanks in the same room? If the 23 litre is OK and they are in the same room, there shouldn't be any air born pollutant getting in the 120. If they are in different room, check for aerosols or air fresheners of any type.
And just to be sure, you do have pure ammonia not ammonia with detergent added?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 29, 2016, 05:39:28 PM
both tanks in same room,using same dechloranator which is fluval aquaplus,have tested for chlorine with strips which is reading 0, did not clean tank with any products .just seemed to stop after adding decor .have another bottle of safe start from different source dont no weather to add it. does it work with ammonia at 3ppm
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 29, 2016, 05:40:32 PM
am using kleenoff ammonia
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on December 29, 2016, 07:05:35 PM
You have eliminated contamination from everything but the decor - and you say the problems started after adding decor.

So now I'll ask, what decor did you add and where did you get it from, a fish shop or somewhere else?


Tetra Safe Start doesn't work if it has been stored incorrectly at some point between the factory and your tank. If you want to try another bottle, get it from a different shop - and not just a different branch of the same shop as they'll have the same wholesaler.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 29, 2016, 07:18:31 PM
ok have 4 ornaments and quite a few plants all but two ornaments where bought at maidenhead aquatics.The two ornament where bought on line one is a bridge ,and from china it looks like its made of resin but the bridge ropes are made of some other plastic. I have removed both now, will try this ,if this does not work i will strip all decor out and try that
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Andy The Minion on December 29, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
@Paddy60 As Littlefish mentioned, what is your pH please.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on December 29, 2016, 09:08:57 PM
Now you've removed the 2 bits of suspect decor I would do a large water change and re add ammonia to reach 3ppm. This will mean that whatever is in the tank from the decor you removed is also removed if this is the issue.  Either way it reduces the possibility of this being a factor going forwards  :cheers:
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 30, 2016, 07:28:15 AM
@Andy the minion  @Matt The ph is a steady 8.2/8.3  . Will do a large water change today ,have noticed one of the other plants is losing a bit of its paint only a few small amounts though ,but going to remove this aswell
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on December 30, 2016, 07:47:25 AM
Is there anything else in the tank Paddy that you are not totally sure is aquarium safe?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 30, 2016, 07:55:57 AM
@Matt everything else bought from the fish shop maidenhead aquatics
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on December 30, 2016, 07:58:41 AM
Your pH is similar to mine, and unlikely to drop/crash.
I'd have thought that anything bought from MA should be safe for your tank.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 30, 2016, 08:03:05 AM
@Littlefish  i would have thought so. have removed the online stuff and will remove the plant with the paint chipping,will do large water change and see from there
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on December 30, 2016, 08:10:00 AM
Best of luck.  :)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Andy The Minion on December 30, 2016, 08:42:43 AM
@Paddy60  With that pH the bacterial should also loving it, if is only it were below 6 then they would struggle. I'm at a loss, the only thing I can suggest is adding more established biological media
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 30, 2016, 10:26:50 AM
@Littlefish @Matt @Andy the minion  Decided to strip the tank down and start again ,did want to eventually move the tank slightly anyway.
Have just stripped all the plastic plants out and under inspection have found maidenhead aquatics have put a label on the bottom of the base which possibly the glue is toxic to fish
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on December 30, 2016, 12:33:33 PM
Now is a good time to move the tank, so much better than when everything is up and running and the fish have settled in.  :)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 30, 2016, 12:49:58 PM
yes  i agree didnt want to move it when it was running.
Anyway have not only found labels on the bottom of the plants ,but there was a load of gunk on the heater which was realy hard to clean off.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on December 30, 2016, 02:30:41 PM
One other thought occurs to me. It might be worth taking some tap water to a fish shop and asking them to test the KH. With your pH it should be fairly high but you never know. If it does turn out to be low you can boost it artificially for cycling as the bacteria do need carbonate to multiply.

This isn't a likely scenario but it is one that can easily be eliminated.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 30, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
@Sue  have looked on thames water site they say my gh should be 16  which iv tested with strips also kh is testing at between 10 and 15 .
Have stripped tank out now scrubbed everything including wash gravel.Had three plants with labels on base which i haven't been able to get the glue off yet so have not put those back in.I had a glue substance on the heater which has taken a good while to clean off,dont no what it was,it was not there when i set up last time.
Now everything back in place and filled up.Will dechlorinate with double dose in a few hours,just letting things run a while.Going to dose ammonia to 2ppm to start with, and try tetra safe start.I read that safe start does not like high ammonia level so going with 2ppm.
Well thats kept me busy  today just finished .Lets hope this gets it done .Back to the patience game now.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on December 30, 2016, 04:16:35 PM
I didn't really think it would be the KH with that high pH but it needed to be checked just on the off chance.


Starting with a lower dose of ammonia is fine, you can even use just 1 ppm. Once the bacteria start growing then you can increase to 3 ppm. Maybe even wait till the tank is cycled with 1 ppm and then increase to 3.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on December 30, 2016, 04:20:21 PM
@Sue i willprobably doe that keep it low at first.Thanks to you and the others for your help.fingers crossed now
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 12, 2017, 08:03:36 AM
have been running the new cycle for 11days now and once again have a hard white build up
on the heater. is this a concern. could it be down to water hardness.
advice needed  please
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on January 12, 2017, 10:15:32 AM
White deposits in a tank where the water is hard could be just limescale. These usually occur round the surface of the water where the minerals in the water are deposited as water evaporates.
There is also a softer white deposit that appears on things like heaters - I have softish water and I get this second deposit.


Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 12, 2017, 10:46:58 AM
my other tank has these soft deposits round the heater top. This tank has like a hard deposit on the heater tube and very difficult to remove. I had to use a razor blade and nail  brush last time. you could liken the deposit as a hard boild sweet stuck to a surface and gone hard. I have no idea what this is or where its coming from. I did consider is it coming from the plastic heater bracket. This is concerning me that it could  be the reason the tank would not cycle
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on January 13, 2017, 08:54:40 PM
What make is your heater?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 13, 2017, 09:16:30 PM
fluval
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on January 14, 2017, 07:02:06 AM
Have you had any progress with the cycle, now 13 days in?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 14, 2017, 07:29:15 AM
@Matt ammonia and nitritre no change. Have now dropped tank temp to 27degC as i have read around 30degC and above can kill the bacteria and can possibly cause more limestone build up on heater. Had previous temp running at 29.5 degC
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on January 14, 2017, 07:31:40 AM
Good shout this was going to be my next suggestion.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 14, 2017, 07:34:16 AM
ph has risen a few points as well  which i believe happens during cycling, so maybe a good  sighn
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 18, 2017, 07:38:29 PM
have re checked KH and now think i might havegot the reading wrong ,as the strips are hard to read.I told @Sue it was above 10 ,but i now think its between 3 and 5.
I believe i can adjust this with baking soda ,what reading do i need to aim at ?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: fcmf on January 18, 2017, 07:46:09 PM
have re checked KH and now think i might havegot the reading wrong ,as the strips are hard to read.
While I do like the test strips for nitrate, nitrite and chlorine, I don't find them at all reliable for KH and GH - they inflate the readings considerably, and tend to give me a lower PH reading (in comparison with my water/utility website and liquid-based tests). I'd read them with caution for those particular ones.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on January 18, 2017, 07:50:24 PM
For during cycling, aim for 10. Remove a bit of tank water, dissolve the bicarb in that then pour it back into the tank.
Start off small, 1 level teaspoonful for 50 litres tank water. Test again after half an hour and if it is still below 10, add some more - the level from 1 spoonful per 50 litres will tell you how much more you need to add.

When the cycle finishes you will need to do as big a water change as possible, near 100% leaving just what's in the substrate, to get rid of the bicarb.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 18, 2017, 08:07:51 PM
ok thanks @Sue and @fcmf, i dont like the strips, and did find they where giving a low ph reading  and really hard to read KH.
So i am going to asume my reading is at 4 and will boost up to 10 tomorrow
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 28, 2017, 01:51:55 PM
 update .   28 days into new cycle after strip down and no ammonia drop or nitrite,have used two lots of tetra safestart from different suppliers,have seeded tank with biomax and filter sponge from my 23ltr cycled tank, have dosed to 1.5 ppm with kleen off ammonia ,have been adding some fish food and a prawn to try and get things going still no change.
ammonia 1.5
nitrite 0
nitrate 20 same as tap
gh 10
kh 10
chlorine 0
temp 27.5 deg C
fluval u3 filter with carbon clean and clear catridges removed leaving just sponge media.running at high turnover
something still does not seem right,thought i would have some change by now.
any suggestions or thoughts on this please
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on January 28, 2017, 06:29:07 PM
Am I reading right that your ammonia has dropped from 1.5ppm to 0ppm?

Have to redosed with ammonia?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 28, 2017, 06:33:22 PM
@Matt  no sorry have modifyed that .It is still at 1.5 ppm
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 28, 2017, 07:32:38 PM
have not redosed as ammonia has not droped from 1.5ppm
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on January 28, 2017, 07:37:17 PM
Something odd is going on. With mature media from the 23 litre,, something should be happening.

Have you ever at any point done anything to the tank that could kill bacteria? For example, washed anything with  detergent, not used dechlorinator. Kleen Off ammonia is fine  - I used that and it was OK for me.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 28, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
no  pretty sure i have not.i did strip the tank down washed everything in dechlorinated water including gravel ,stripped filter washed impellor etc,removed some decor i thought could be the problem.when i started first cycle attempt i got  some readings ammonia and nitrite and thought this is going to be alot quicker then my other tank.I posted these readings and @Sue thought them ai bit strange.I then put in the tank decor and then ammonia stuck on 3ppm ,nitrite disappeared and then no change for 30days plus.Then did tank strip.I removed some decor that i thought might be the problem.All the remaining decor bought from maidenhead aquatics and fully washed in dechlorinated water.
 everything in my inexperienced opinion points to the decor but why?  other people have said this would not be the problem so l have kept going.
So should i keep being patient or should i do water change and remove decor or just remove decor. Or should i do re stripp again and remove decor and start from fresh
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Andy The Minion on January 28, 2017, 08:34:08 PM
@Paddy60 This defies logic! There must be something we are missing. Have you tried taking a water sample to your LFS and asking them to confirm your readings, could it just be a test kit problem??
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 28, 2017, 08:37:55 PM
have got two different api test kits and colombo kits
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on January 28, 2017, 09:00:32 PM
What decor have you got left in the tank now @Paddy60 ?

In fact, if you can face it listing everything in the tank might not be a bad idea!!  I'll see if anything jumps out...
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 29, 2017, 09:03:20 AM
Moss Covered Thai Warrior (9 x 7 x 21.5cm)
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/moss-covered-thai-warrior-9-x-7-x-215cm


Blue Ribbon Cambodian Temple Ruins (19 x 15 x 27cm)
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/-cambodian-temple-ruins-19-x-15-x-27cm

Blue Ribbon Ancient Stone Head Ruin (14 x 10 x 17cm)
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/-ancient-stone-head-ruin-14-x-10-x-17cm


Majestic Ocean Plant 32cm
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/majestic-ocean-plant-32cm

i have a number of plants made by sydeco, the above is an example , all bought from Maidenhead aquatics.
The stone head and temple ruins also bought from Maidenhead aquatics.
The tai Warrior was bought new on ebay and looks identical to the ones sold at Maidenhead aquatics


Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 29, 2017, 09:11:44 AM
hear is a link to the tai Warrior purchase on ebay
Look at this on eBay  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331926429335

looks genuine to me although not a pure aquatics site
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on January 29, 2017, 10:28:18 AM
All looks quite normal, stuff I've seen in various LFS.

The situation that you are in sounds so frustrating. I can't really add anything apart from sympathy as I can't understand why your cycle hasn't completed.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 29, 2017, 12:04:46 PM
so any suggestions what my next step is??
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Andy The Minion on January 29, 2017, 12:17:50 PM
Sorry it absolutely beats me :-\
Ever thought of moving to bearded dragons as an alternative?  ::)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 29, 2017, 12:25:12 PM
bearded dragons, no thanks. my sister keeps  those lol
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on January 29, 2017, 12:29:45 PM
Beats me...whats your substrate?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on January 29, 2017, 12:30:46 PM
Rankins dragons are smaller and very cute.  ;D

Sorry @Paddy60  not being awfully helpful there.

I would be tempted to try cycling your filter in a bare tank, no decor. Excuse my random thinking, but I was wondering if the tank could be cycled with just dechlorinated water and the mature media from your smaller tank, plus the source of ammonia, and nothing else. If that was sucessful then perhaps try adding decor slowly (over a few weeks) to the established tank and it wouldn't be a problem, or if there was a problem you'd know when and could pin it down to a particular item.

Apologies for the suggestion of having to start from scratch again, I just don't know what else to suggest.
 :(
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 29, 2017, 12:40:21 PM
@Matt small gravel fom Maidenhead aquatics thouraly rinsed before adding to tank.
@Littlefish  thats the way i was thinking, trie and cycle with bare minimum, then re introduce decor, process of elimination. going to use prime to Dechlorinate this time
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on January 29, 2017, 12:45:11 PM
I can't think of any other way to tackle the problem.
On the bright side, you could even cycle without the substrate and not cause much disruption adding it after. I use sand substrates (mainly for the sake of the cories, plecos and axolotls, delicate little things that they are  ;D ), and I've managed to add extra sand without too much dust/cloudiness, so gravel should be do-able.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on January 29, 2017, 12:46:59 PM
think ill leave the gravel in, good suggestion though
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 11, 2017, 07:30:12 AM
@Matt @Sue @Littlefish  update on tank after re start :- dosed ammonia to 4 ppm ,day 9 ammonia dropped to 2ppm,now on day 12 ammonia dropped to 0.5ppm nitrite still 0. althogh ammonia now below 0.75 there is no nitrite ,so do i redose ammonia or sit and wait for nitrite to go above 2ppm risking good bacteria die off ?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on February 11, 2017, 08:42:40 AM
I don't understand why you're not getting any nitrite  ???
What are your bacteria converting the ammonia into  ???
How frustrating for you.
Personally I would wait for some advice from @Sue
You could dose ammonia at a lower level if you are concerned about your first bacteria, but Sue will give you the correct advice for your situation.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on February 11, 2017, 09:56:22 AM
That's what I've been wondering too. The ammonia must be going somewhere.

What's your nitrate doing? Don't forget to subtract the tap water reading from the tank reading to see if is going up.

Have you done a dilution test for nitrite recently? I'd try 1 part tank to 4 part tap (a 1 in 5 dilution) and see if you get a reading anywhere on the scale.


If the dilution test still shows zero nitrite, wait till ammonia has been at zero for 3 days then add another 3 ppm. You go at least 3 days in stage #8 without harm.




I'm beginning the think the way to approach this is wait until the tank can clear ammonia to zero in 24 hours, do the huge water change then get a few fish. Not a full tank load but a few like for fish-in cycling, then test the water twice a day as near to 12 hours apart as you can manage. And watch the fish for signs of nitrite poisoning - hanging just under the surface or near the filter outlet, possibly gasping for air.
If there is no sign of ammonia and particularly no sign of nitrite for a week, get some more fish. I would stock slowly like for a fish-in cycle so that if you see any nitrite at any point at least you won't have a lot of fish making a lot of ammonia to make a lot of nitrite.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 11, 2017, 03:22:07 PM
@Sue  tap water nitrate is at about 40ppm and tank is now at between 80 ppm to 160 ppm ,but quite hard to judge
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on February 11, 2017, 03:28:30 PM
So there is definitely an increase in nitrate, which must have come from somewhere. Apart from being made from ammonia, the other possible sources are plant fertiliser which contains nitrate or a plant substrate enriched with nitrate containing fertiliser.

I think I would follow the fishless cycling method but ignore nitrite. Add ammonia when the reading for that reaches certain values. But I would still add fish a few at a time as for fishless cycling since you can't be totally certain you will have enough nitrite eaters.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 26, 2017, 08:48:32 AM
update. i think i missed the nitrite spike or didnt have one due to seeding with gravel from other tank.
  I have been dosing to 3ppm ammonia.Testing after 12 hours  readings are  Ammonia 1.0 ppm Ninrite 0.25 ppm. Testing after 24 hours  readings are Ammonia 0 ppm Nitrite 0ppm   
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on February 26, 2017, 08:50:47 AM
Great news.  :cheers:
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on February 26, 2017, 10:21:23 AM
Yey, it sounds to me like your tank is cycled!

  :fishy1:  @Sue is it fish time??  :fishy1:

I'm beginning the think the way to approach this is wait until the tank can clear ammonia to zero in 24 hours, do the huge water change then get a few fish. Not a full tank load but a few like for fish-in cycling, then test the water twice a day as near to 12 hours apart as you can manage. And watch the fish for signs of nitrite poisoning - hanging just under the surface or near the filter outlet, possibly gasping for air.
If there is no sign of ammonia and particularly no sign of nitrite for a week, get some more fish. I would stock slowly like for a fish-in cycle so that if you see any nitrite at any point at least you won't have a lot of fish making a lot of ammonia to make a lot of nitrite.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddyc on February 26, 2017, 10:26:20 AM
Sounds like someone's ready to get some fish!!  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on February 26, 2017, 10:28:47 AM
I think it is indeed fish time  :D

I know that in theory you can now get all the fish planned for the tank but I would only stock to three quarters first. Leave any sensitive species for a few weeks. Stocking less than the max initially means you have more wiggle room should ammonia and/or nitrite show up.

And check for ammonia and nitrite daily for a week after getting fish just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on February 26, 2017, 10:33:07 AM
Or I guess you may want to do Fish-in cycling but with your ornaments... to work out what is tank safe and what isn't...

"ornament-in cycling" so to speak!  :rotfl:
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddyc on February 26, 2017, 10:33:49 AM
I think it is indeed fish time  :D

And check for ammonia and nitrite daily for a week after getting fish just to be on the safe side.

I was just typing the same RE: Daily checks after adding fish for the first time  ;)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: fcmf on February 26, 2017, 01:01:26 PM
Ooooooooooh, how exciting.
 :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 26, 2017, 01:57:49 PM
thanks all for your comments and advice, i am gradually going to add  the decor back just to check all ok after possible  problem last time, so probably stocking after another week .  tank is a 120 ltr with about 106ltrs water volume  ph 8.2 hard water running two filters, i am looking  at stocking with tiger barbs of three different colours  and some boesmani rainbows. so am aiming to add nine tigers at first and maybe two rainbows ,
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Sue on February 26, 2017, 02:08:24 PM
Add ammonia at the 1 ppm dose every couple of days till you are ready to go fish shopping, then do the big water change the day before or even before you leave on shopping day if there will be time.

Is your tank at least 48 inches (120 cm) long? Boesemanis are big fish and need that swimming length. If the tank is shorter than that I would look for different fish.
I know the profiles on here says min tank size 75 cm but I'm afraid the profiles were written along time ago (there were already in the old forum when I joined in 2006) and some of them are out of date.
Before buying any fish I would advise you to check with Seriously Fish (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/) or FishBase (http://www.fishbase.org/search.php). Fishbase doesn't have much info on tank requirements etc but often has more reliable data on water needs.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 26, 2017, 02:58:29 PM
ok, tank is only  80cm
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: fcmf on February 26, 2017, 03:42:22 PM
I wonder if these http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/melanotaenia-praecox/ might be an alternative option for you, @Paddy60?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 26, 2017, 04:22:55 PM
@fcmf  ill look into those thanks
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on February 26, 2017, 05:22:36 PM
Keep us posted, this is a very exciting time.  :fishy1:  :fishy1:  :fishy1:  :fishy1:  :fishy1:  :fishy1:  ;D
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 26, 2017, 05:23:23 PM
will do
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Andy The Minion on February 26, 2017, 07:36:23 PM
CONGRATULATIONS !!
@Paddy60 A truly epic cycle, started in mid to early November I think?
Lesser fish keepers would have given up and started collecting stamps !
I hope it goes well from here on, you deserve it :)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddyc on February 26, 2017, 09:35:12 PM
CONGRATULATIONS !!
@Paddy60 A truly an epic cycle, started in mid to early November I think?
Lesser fish keepers would have given up and started collecting stamps !
I hope it goes well from here on, you deserve it :)

What he said  8)
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 28, 2017, 07:07:48 PM
tested sunday morning still at ammonia 0  and nitrite now at 0 ,added decor ,larege ancient ruin and tai warrior. dosed to 3ppm ammonia.Tested monday morning reading some ammonia .added three of the original plants bought from maidenhead aquatics and redosed to 3 ppm ammonia.Tested 12 hours later ammonia is still at 3ppm or possibly 2ppm ,this was dropping to about .75 ppm in 12 hours so any suggestions please
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on February 28, 2017, 07:25:43 PM
Take out the two bits of decor and do a large water change, then try again redoing with ammonia and testing 24 hours later would be my suggestion, we should see the tank recover with a couple of days.  Then we should do each piece of decor separately and wait 48 hours next time round.
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 28, 2017, 07:28:23 PM
can remove decor tonight but water change  only possible tomorrow night
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on February 28, 2017, 09:12:08 PM
change of plans,decor removed ,90% water change now complete redosed to 3ppm ammonia .
did notice a lot of white flakey material floating about,it came from the air pipe for the airstone think its from the hard water build up ,any thoughts please
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Matt on February 28, 2017, 09:57:12 PM
When did you install the air stone?
Title: Re: help with cycle please
Post by: Andy The Minion on February 28, 2017, 10:03:27 PM
God's Teeth @Paddy60 were these ornaments carved out of solid chlorine or from the MA HMS Disinfectant sunken ship range  :yikes:
I'm guessing the white material is another form of the white growth seen during fish less cycles, calcium deposit is unlikely to float.
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on March 01, 2017, 05:55:44 PM
@Matt  installed the air stone at the begining, its not a stone just remembered its just the pipe with a conecter buried in the  gravel.
@Andy the minion  starting to suspect a tai Warrior could  be the problem  it looks exactly  the same as in the fish shops, but bought this online from a gift site
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on March 04, 2017, 09:00:02 AM
tank has recovered now, cycling from 3ppm ammonia to 1ppm ,and nitrite to .25 ppm in 12 hours and ammonia and nitrite to 0 in 24 hours.
 tai warrior getting bined and will add decor one at a time every 48 hours .
question -  should i keep dosing to 3ppm ammonia while adding this decor slowly as will take a week or so ,or drop to 1 ppm ?
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on March 04, 2017, 09:47:35 AM
@Paddy60 great to hear that you have found the cause of your problem. I hope that everything runs smoothly for you now.
You can drop down to 1ppm ammonia, and do a large water change before adding your fish. Check on Sue's fishless cycle sticky for details.
Best wishes for zeros on your tests for the following week as you add decor, and fish shopping very soon.  ;D
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on May 16, 2017, 08:46:40 PM
havent posted for a while as still had problems.after adding the decor one by one,every time it crashed the cycle. So decided to bin all the artificial plants bought from the aquatics shop and start again with a different make of plants and some drift wood.This time cycle whent as expected,now cycling from 3 to zero in 24 hours,hooray,lucky im patient.should be stocking at weekend.
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Sue on May 16, 2017, 08:50:04 PM
Good to hear you have finally cracked it. i don't think I'd have been so patient  :-\
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on May 16, 2017, 08:57:08 PM
thanks sue
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on May 17, 2017, 06:23:53 AM
Congratulations on completing your cycle.  :cheers:
You've been so patient, well done.
Best wishes for a settled tank and many happy fish.  :fishy1:  :fishy1:  :fishy1:
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Matt on May 17, 2017, 07:20:08 AM
Glad you finally got you tank sorted! Excited to see what fish you get! Keep us informed... with pictures  :cheers:
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on May 17, 2017, 07:52:56 PM
Thanks matt ,a long struggle.going to go for species tank of tiger barbs planing to add 9 or 11 at weekend.I know people have had trouble with these but we will see how it goes
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on May 17, 2017, 07:57:47 PM
@Littlefish thank you . Lucky my small tank is going fine .kept me intrested while trying to cycle this one
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Paddy60 on May 25, 2017, 07:01:53 AM
tank cycled and stocked with 10 Tiger barbs now.4 days in and all is well
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Littlefish on May 25, 2017, 05:38:19 PM
Hooray, fish in your tank.  :cheers:

It's all looking great, well done.  ;D
Title: Re: Help with fish tank cycle please
Post by: Matt on May 25, 2017, 09:59:35 PM
 ;D  Horay!! ;D

It was a long time coming, but the tank looks absolutely fantastic!!