Fishless Cycling Problem

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Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2017, 01:43:30 PM »
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@barneyadi I would do exactly as Matt suggests (just using prime to remove chlorine in the normal way) but I don't think this is a panic situation, so what is needed is just to stop it rising massively higher. The levels are rising fast, 0.52ppm yesterday to 1.28ppm today but from the water parameters you gave us the Ammonia test reading (NH3+NH4 remember) gives a toxic (NH3 only) level of 0.001ppm and the upper limit is 0.02ppm.

So this is the time to take sensible action and change enough water to drop the Ammonia back to around 0.5ppm, this will keep your cycle going but the NH3 levels (0.5ppm = 0.004ppm) will be back to safe levels for the fish with a good margin for error.
***In addition reduce the feeding to slow the daily rises and of course test and change water daily until the cycle is completed***

Incidentally I found this in a paper on NH3 toxicity levels, note it refers to 'real' toxic NH3 (free Ammonia) not TAN which is also spoken about as Ammonia.

Rough guide to toxic levels of free ammonia:
Any level above 0.02 (ppm) is considered harmful                                 
0.020 to 0.049 (ppm) is considered 'tolerated' but will cause long term harm to its growth, immune system, health, etc. especially to eggs or very young animals.
0.050 to 0.199 (ppm) is perhaps tolerated for only a few days and is very harmful.                  
0.200 to 0.499 (ppm) is perhaps tolerated for a day or two and will probably kill.                  
0.500+ (ppm) is deadly and will probably kill within a day.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2017, 02:27:06 PM »
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ok, this is where I am getting very confused. Some people say don't change the water and others say change it. Which is correct? Or is it just a case of there are different ways of doing cycling?
If I do water change as 0.5 is 40% of 1.28, is a 60% change correct?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2017, 02:52:44 PM »
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I also agree with Matt.
I would do a water change of around 50%, then test the water again, to check the ammonia.
Water changes may prolong your cycle slightly, but the health of the fish is always the priority.

Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2017, 02:59:14 PM »
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The 'don't change water' I think is very general advice that is being repeated without reference to what is happening in the tank. You however can see that the Ammonia is building in the tank and in my opinion the correct thing to do is a water change. I would rather not rely on a claim of products blocking the toxic effects of Ammonia when fresh water is freely available :)

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #104 on: February 25, 2017, 03:02:02 PM »
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Do I turn filter off while I water change?

Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #105 on: February 25, 2017, 03:16:07 PM »
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If you are worried it will kill the bacteria, don't because it wont. Remember you received filter material in the post to start your cycle so a few minutes of no flow is certainly fine. Just remember to turn it back on again!

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #106 on: February 25, 2017, 03:54:47 PM »
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ok. done about a 55% water change and will check ammonia levels tonight. Do I need to check nitrates as well?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #107 on: February 25, 2017, 04:16:29 PM »
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I tend to check everything at the same time, out of habit.
I would expect all of the levels to have dropped after a water change. It might be worth checking morning and evening each day to see how quickly the levels rise and to monitor them so that you know when to do water changes until your cycle is complete.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #108 on: February 25, 2017, 05:10:16 PM »
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I agree with all of the others above re changing the water, so glad to read that you have done that.

As I think I mentioned earlier, I used both Tetra Safestart and Seachem Prime during my fish-in cycle, having also struggled with a fish-less cycle (using fish food as the ammonia source); I changed water daily, and my understanding is that the Seachem Prime detoxifies the ammonia/nitrite/nitrates for the following 24hrs rather than actually affecting the levels of them. Hope that this is reassuring.

Offline Sue

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #109 on: February 25, 2017, 06:59:55 PM »
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Do I turn filter off while I water change?

Yes.Turn off both the filter and heater.

If the level of water drops below the filter pump it will empty of water and run dry. This can damage filter pumps.

If a heater turns on when out of the water there is a risk it will shatter. Some heaters are designed to turn off in these circumstances but I don't think the Juwel heater does.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #110 on: February 25, 2017, 07:02:50 PM »
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Ok water change done and new reading taken

Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 2.62

Thought I would be nearer 0.5 ammonia as changed 50% water but at least figures have dropped down.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #111 on: February 25, 2017, 07:55:48 PM »
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Good to see that your levels have dropped.  :)

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2017, 01:40:25 PM »
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So todays readings as follows

Ammonia 0.13ppm
Nitrite 0.57ppm
Nitrate 3.61ppm

Interestingly the first time I have seen nitrites, does it mean my cycle is on track?

Offline Sue

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2017, 02:00:05 PM »
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It could be. Keep an eye on the nitrites as there is no safe form of this as there is with ammonia. Anything over 0.25 is harmful for fish.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #114 on: February 26, 2017, 02:16:45 PM »
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if it continues going up should I consider another water change?

Offline Sue

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #115 on: February 26, 2017, 02:23:03 PM »
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With nitrite at twice the 'safe-ish' level I'd change at least half the water asap. Then test half an hour after the water change (to allow the new water to mix in) and if it is still over 0.2, do another water change. The reason I say over 0.2 is because it will go up after the water change and you need to keep it below 0.25.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #116 on: February 26, 2017, 02:56:46 PM »
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strange, just retested and got 0.03 nitrates. wonder if other reading was an anomaly?

Offline Matt

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #117 on: February 26, 2017, 03:09:43 PM »
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Best way to tell would be to do another test... then we'll know which one is the anomaly  :D

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #118 on: February 26, 2017, 03:17:26 PM »
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well last night was 0.05 so would probably say the 0.03 is more correct. Will do another test after 7pm and see how it is.

Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #119 on: February 26, 2017, 03:25:39 PM »
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With nitrite at twice the 'safe-ish' level I'd change at least half the water asap. Then test half an hour after the water change (to allow the new water to mix in) and if it is still over 0.2, do another water change. The reason I say over 0.2 is because it will go up after the water change and you need to keep it below 0.25.

Ooooo, I had the safe level from a book as 4ppm. I checked my records and I have never been near either so not a problem.....phew!

 


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