Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Natasha on January 09, 2014, 03:10:05 PM
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Admin Notice:
This thread is a discussion thread of the following fishless cycling method (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/fishless-cycling-how-to-do-it/) please feel free to read it, before contributing or asking in this discussion. Thanks!
Summary of using this new method of fishless cycling using 3ppm ammonia, for my Rio 180 tank
Day 1. Set up tank, turn tank lights off, let the water heat up to 28oC.
Day 2. Add 3ppm of ammonia. I used the Jeyes Kleen Off Ammonia which is supposed to be 9.5%, so I needed to add 0.3ml for every 10 litres in my tank which would equate to 5.4ml. However I took Sue’s advice and added less than that, as I know there is not 180 litres of water in my tank and am unsure of the real strength of the bottle of ammonia.
I added 2.25ml ammonia solution at first and let it mix in the tank for 30mins before testing, the water showed 1ppm of ammonia at this point. I added another 2.25ml ammonia solution and let it mix for 30mins before testing, the water showed about 2ppm ammonia at this point. I added 2ml more ammonia solution and left 30mins before testing, the water showed 3ppm at this point. From this I know that the full dose of ammonia solution for my tank is 6.5ml and therefore the maintenance dose is 2.17ml as it is one third of the full dose.
Day 3. Nothing today.
Day 4. Nothing today.
Day 5. Tested the tank water today, ammonia was 0.25ppm (under 0.75ppm) and nitrite was 3ppm (over 2ppm) so I could add my full dose of ammonia solution.
Day 6. Nothing today.
Day 7. Tested the water today, ammonia was 0ppm.
Day 8. Nothing today.
Day 9. Tested the water today, ammonia was 0ppm. As I had two consecutive readings of 0ppm for ammonia I then added the maintenance dose of ammonia solution.
Day 10. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm (under 0.25ppm) and nitrite was 0.25ppm (under 1ppm) so the cycle is not finished but they are under the values at which I need to add more ammonia solution. Therefore I have added a full dose of ammonia solution.
Day 11. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm so the cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 12. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. However, this does not mean that my cycle has finished as it is more than 24hours since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 13. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm so the cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 14. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 15. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 16. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 17. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 18. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 19. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 20. Unable to test today.
Day 21. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 22. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 23. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 24. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 25. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 26. Unable to test today.
Day 27. Unable to test today.
Day 28. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 29. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 30. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 31. Unable to test today.
Day 32. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.
Day 33. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution. Today I also tested nitrate which was 80ppm.
Day 34. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. I also tested pH which was 7.4 so perfectly within normal values. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution. Today I added the maintenance dose of ammonia solution (1ppm) so that I can see how much nitrite is present after 24hrs when I add only 1ppm of ammonia.
Day 35. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as I only added 1ppm ammonia solution. Today I added 2ppm of ammonia as both the ammonia and nitrite tests showed that levels had dropped to 0ppm within 24hrs when I only added 1ppm.
Day 36. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 1ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.
Day 37. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, I have added 2ppm of ammonia solution tonight.
Day 38. Unable to test today.
Day 39. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, I have added 2ppm of ammonia tonight.
Day 40. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0.5ppm. The cycle has not finished as both readings are not at zero, I have added 2ppm of ammonia solution tonight.
Day 41. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0.25ppm. The cycle has not finished as both readings are not at zero, I have added 2ppm of ammonia solution tonight.
Day 42. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as I have only been adding 2ppm ammonia solution, I have added 3ppm of ammonia tonight.
Day 43. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. YAY THE CYCLE IS FINISHED!! :D
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Just thought I would check that this is still the most up to date method before I start cycling my 100L tank.
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This is a recently devised method by someone on another forum - I pinched his idea ;)
The problem with the older method (which involved adding up to 5ppm ammonia, waiting till it dropped, then re-dosing every time the ammonia level dropped to zero ) is that the nitrite level got too high and stalled the cycle. And our test kits don't measure high enough to know when this too-high level of nitrite had been reached. Research has shown that the ammonia eaters don't need to be fed every day and that 5ppm is more ammonia than is needed, 3ppm being more than enough for a tank full of fish.
This method was devised as a way of keeping the nitrite levels below that critical level, and takes advantage of not needing to dose every time the ammonia level drops to zero. It is said to be faster than the old method as nitrite does not get high enough to stall the cycle.
I have to admit that I haven't used this method myself. Last time I did a fishless cycle, about 9 months ago, this method hadn't been worked out. I used a modified version of the old method, dosing 1ppm ammonia initially, then again every time the ammonia reading dropped to zero. Once both ammonia and nitrite were dropping to zero in 24 hours, I increased the dose. This also kept the nitrite level under the critical amount while the nitrite eaters grew.
But if I'd known about this method then, I would have used it.
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Hello all, I am new to fish keeping and have recently set up a tank. I am doing a fishless cycle prior to adding fish. One question regarding this new fishless cycle, when it says ON THE THIRD DAY AFTER ADDING AMMONIA, TEST FOR AMMONI AND NITRITES. Does this mean add you initial dose again and then test or just test the water. Same question for day six and so on?
Many thanks
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Sorry for not being clear.
At the beginning, it is a watch and wait game. After the start dose of ammonia you don't add any more until you get results showing ammonia under 0.75 and nitrite over 2.0. The testing every three days is so that you catch the drop when it happens. It could take several tests before you see these readings. I did a fishless cycle last year using the old method, but it starts off the same, and it took 13 days for the ammonia level to drop.
One thing that fishless cycling teaches us is patience :D
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Thanks for the reply Sue, that has cleared it up. Probably would help if I wasn't reading the article tired as reading down it is explained better. I will have to wait a little longer for test results to start as I dosed 4 ml into my 165 lt tank prior to posting. Even though I can't wait to get fish in the tank I am enjoying the set up and fishless cycling and would rather have them in a stable tank. After waiting for a while to get the tank another month or two without fish is no hardship. Thanks again for advice, the whole topic/post is very helpful.
Justin
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Call me Ms Cautious but I really didnt want to mess this up and this has taken me about 2 months due to replanting ect. I believe my tank is now full cycled but would just like some final advice Sue if you don't mind.
I still have the original filter pad in although I have rinsed it in aquarium water and I've followed the cycling steps although I've missed testing some days. Condensation was a real problem (have C-hood now)so I had to make frequent top ups of treated water .25 litres a day
Chemical readings for the last few days are as follows..
21st: Amon 0, Nitrite .25 full dose 1.5 ammon added
22nd:Amon .5, Nitrite 5 full dose 1.5 ammon added
24th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0 added maint dose .5 ammon
25th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0 added maint dose .5 Ammon
26th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0 added maint dose .5 Ammon
27th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0 added full dose 1 .5 Ammon
Tomorrow morning I'm going to test again for ammon, nitrite and nitrates and I'm going to visit an aquarium specialist to see if they have any of the fish I've researched as suitable. I'm quite excited about this bit :) I wont be bringing any fish home yet though.
My tank is now fully planted and all the plants are established and growing well and I think this may be why the nitrate levels are so low.
Should I change my filter pad tomorrow and wait to see test results, its been in situ since I started the aquarium? I want to make sure my fish have a ready home before I start stocking.
Thanks in advance for the advice.
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If you change anything in the filter, you'll throw away all the bacteria in it that you have just spent 2 months growing. Why do you need to change the pad?
Is the pad the only thing in the filter or is there a lot of other media in there as well? If it only a small part of the media, you could change the pad and only lose a few bacteria but if it's the only thing, or a large proportion of the media you'll lose a lot of bacteria which will put you into a mini-cycle.
If you want to change the pad because the instructions say to, ignore them. They only say that to make you spend money.
The only media that does need changing is carbon, and then only if you need it to remove something like medication or tannins from wood as it gets full. Otherwise don't bother changing even carbon (although not using carbon at all is a better option)
Your results do suggest you are cycled, and if you have a lot of plants they will keep the nitrate low. They also use ammonia as food and in a very heavily planted tank (think underwater jungle) you can even get away without a filter. But most of us are not that heavily planted and do need a filter as well as the plants.
If it'll be a while before getting fish, add the maintenance dose of ammonia every 3 days till you get them. I know you don't have any nitrate, but I'd still do a water change the day before, or earlier the same day you do buy fish.
And be wary of the shop till you know you can trust them. You have researched the fish you want so you'll know if they start talking rubbish :))
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I've got a Marina i110 filter, it has 2 filter parts, 1 is called a bioscreen which is plastic with lots of holes in it for greater surface area for bacteria to grow on and is permanent, the other is called a power cartridge and that's the bit that you'er advised to change every 4 weeks or if water flow through the filter reduces noticably and that's the part I was going to change.
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According to Hagen's website,
The outside of the power cartridge features polyester foam to trap fine particles; while the inside chambers contain carbon to remove pollutants and odors; and zeolite to eliminate toxic ammonia for a cleaner, healthier aquarium environment and crystal clear water.
I don't like these cartridges. They mostly contain carbon, but this one also contains zeolite, and it's main funtion is to remove ammonia. Some of the ammonia you have been adding will have been absorbed by the zeolite, but it will probably be saturated by now so it will not be absorbing ammonia at the moment. If you replace the cartridge, you will add new zeolite which will remove ammonia until that too is full. But by then you'll have fish, and when the zeolite gets full it will stop absorbing ammonia but there won't be quite enough bacteria to remove what the zeolite no longer absorbs. Yes, it will only take a short time for them to mulitiply, but then you change the cartridge again, the new zeolite removes ammonia, the numbers of bacteria decrease because there is less ammonia for them, and when the zeolite gets full there won't be enough bacteria.......and so on and on. You would be tied into replacing the cartridges before the zeolite got full for ever, or risk exposing the fish to repeated mini-cycles.
The simplest thing to do is cut open the cartridge, empty the carbon and zeolite and fill the polyester bag with filter sponge. Then you would only need to wash it when it got dirty. And no zeolite to cause problems. And no carbon either, but you don't really need that anyway. I haven't used carbon on a routine basis in any of my tanks for years.
If you do decide on this, do it before you get fish. There will be some bacteria on the carbon and zeolite, and you need to make sure you have enough bacteria after removing the carbon and zeolite before getting fish.
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Oh blast I see what you mean now... I've just had a look at the new cartridges and the polyester foam is very thin and flimsey and is held in place by the plastic framework of the cartridge itself. I could have a try at doing what you suggested, the replacement cartridges arent that expensive so if it goes wrong it's not a problem. What sort of filter foam would you suggest Sue?
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If the cartridge is flimsy you could try using just sponge. The only downside is that the polyester is probably better at catching very fine bits that sponge is. That's why the water flow through the cartridge slows down- it gets full of muck.
Any brand filter sponge would do, but obviously one that was only a bit bigger than you'd need so as not to waste much when you cut it down. It is safer sticking to something made for filters, any make, as sponges come in two types: those that soak up water and those that let water run through. You need the second type, and getting a sponge designed for filter use means it will be the right type. See what your local shop stocks. A fine sponge would be better for catching fine bits than a coarse sponge.
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OK the update is... I've cut the filter pad sections open along the join, emptied them out and used fishing line to close them up again, I've wet the adapted filter in aquarium water and squeezed water from the old filter pad all over it and then inserted the ammended filter bck into the filter casing. I've added a full dose of ammonia and I'll test again tomorrow night, both readings tonight before my 'fiddling' were 0/0 ammon/nitrite
Lets see what happens tomorrow
ps: this kills my filter warrenty btw but it'll be an interesting experiment and as we have no fish atm its a good time to test it
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That sounds like a good plan.
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Thinking on what you've said I actually went one step further. I cut the old filter material from the old cartridge and inserted it in the space left when I removed the zeolite so hopefully I wont have lost too much bacteria
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Hi I am on day 7 of the cycle, day 1 I dosed ammonia to 3ppm. Day 4 I tested and ammonia and nitrites were both zero Day 7, today, just tested and ammonia and nitrites are still zero?
Should I be adding more ammonia? I am using a combination of old and new filter material.
Thanks
Helen
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It looks like the old media is really helping.
Add a 3ppm dose of ammonia and test after 24 hours.
If both are zero, add another 3ppm dose and test after another 24 hours. If both are still zero, get fish.
If one or both are above zero, go to step #10 and follow from there until you do have double zeros 24 hours after adding a dose of ammonia.
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Hi Sue, forgive my ignorance and if this has been asked here already, my rush at not reading properly. You state the initial ammonia dose for new tank as approx 0.2 ml, i have a 10 ml syringe, marked with 5 lines for each 2 4 6 8 10ml is it therefore not the 2 ml mark (which seems reasonable) but a lesser ammount, which seem very tiny?
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Ooops! just engaged brain, and realised it is 0.2 ml PER LTR ,so as i have approx 80 ltrs, 2 ml per ltr would be too much, still not sure of quanitity though, will have to google later i think. Sorry for misunderstanding :-[ :-[
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80 litres of water would need 2.5ml of 9.5% ammonia for the 3ppm dose. For the 1ppm dose you'd need 0.8ml.
That's assuming you have 80 litres of water. Some manufacturers quote the thickness of glass in their volume so the amount of water that will fit in the tank is less than the stated volume; and even if the tank holds 80 litres water when empty, you'll displace some of that water when you put in substrate, filter, decor etc. Reckon to lose 10% for a lightly decorated tank or 15% for a tank with lots of stuff in it.
And make sure the ammonia solution is 9.5% as some makes differ. I know that Jeyes KleenOff ammonia is 9.5% even though it doesn't say on the bottle - I emailed them to ask when I bought some.
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Thank you so much for the calculation Sue, (i'm artistic, not mathematical ) yes it is Jeyes Clean Off, and the tank is actually 90 ltr but ive filled it to 81 ltr and still have some cobbles to put in so i don't think it will be any more or less. Well i'm up and running and shall follow your fishless cycle method, so fingers crossed for me please lol : )
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I'm hopeless at arty things but maths was my favourite subject at school. I got a grade 1 O level ;D
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Hi Sue,
Assuming you don't fully stock with fish straight after cycling is complete, is it likely that some bacteria would die in a 200 litre tank if left under stocked for a while, therefore requiring a slower build up of stock?
Thanks :)
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If you do get fish but not the full amount, not even 75% then yes, you would lose some bacteria over the weeks. The solution is either to keep adding ammonia until you can get most of your fish in one batch, or get some fish and add the rest a few at a time weeks/months later.
If you choose the latter, you could use less than 3ppm ammonia to cycle. For example, if you intended to get only a third of your final stock list straight away, you could get away with using enough ammonia to get 1.5ppm as the big dose and 0.5ppm as the smaller dose. Possibly even 1ppm as the big dose and 0.3 ppm as the smaller dose.
But you would need to add the remaining fish a few at a time if it is a few weeks after the first batch.
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Much obliged. I'm not sure how many fish I will get straight away so may as well go the full dose. I'm assuming it wouldn't be any quicker either way.
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It takes very little longer to grow enough bacteria for 3ppm compared to 1ppm. It's getting them started that the slow bit. Under optimum conditions, they can double in 24 hours. So they can double from enough to dispose of 1ppm to 2ppm in around a day and around 2 days to go up to 3ppm.
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Would I need to use 3ppm ammonia for my shrimpery? Its 15 litres.
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For a shrimp only tank, I would think 1ppm as the big dose, with one third ppm as the snack dose, would be more than enough.
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Thanks Sue
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The Range Household ammonia at £1.00 is no good it has an additive :(
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Thank you for that info.
If you can find it, Kleen Off Household Ammonia is fine (make sure it is household ammonia as there are other products in the Kleen Off range) or failing that ammonia should be available on Ebay or Amazon. Some sellers even label it as ammonia for fishless cycling.
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That is what I have just done, could not find it in any of the local shops. and time is pushing now. Tank arrives in the shop tomorrow, so by Friday cabinet should be up and tank on top and 3d backgrounds stuck in and drying. Sand not here yet have 50kg on order. also when GF was not with me I ordered up a C02 system with refillable bottle, works out cheaper than the soda stream adapter.
do you have a link for crushed aragonite, bot seen it on Amazon yet.
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I have seen aragonite mentioned on other forums, mainly because it contains magnesium as well as calcium. But I can't find crushed aragonite on UK sites - maybe that product is American. However, there are sellers of aragonite sand, with or without coral mixed in.
Caribsea make aragonite substrates (http://www.caribsea.com/pages_caribsea/page_product_aragonite.html) suitable for African (Rift Lake) cichlids. If you could find a shop that specialises in Rift Lake cichlids, that would be the best place to look - these fish need very hard alkaline water.
I'm not sure about what Amazon calls live sand as this has bacteria on it, but marine bacteria rather than freshwater.
If all else fails, try looking for crushed coral. That should work too.
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going for south American type fish, I do not want to raise the PH , but you said I could do with the added hardness for the cycle, or will the bi carb be enough, plus if so what dose of Bi card am I looking at, no rush will be sunday I think before I start the cycle
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oh whilst I am thinking of it.. why does PH of tap water change over a 24 hour period, is it best to poor and keep the water for 24 hours before adding etc, years ago I just used to wait a few hours
I was using the ApI test kit high range on first pour and then low range 24 hours latter etc
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Your hardness is very low so you do need to raise it a bit once you have fish. This will also raise the pH a bit but hardness is more important than pH. You don't have to raise it by much, nothing like what Rift Lake cichlid keepers need - they also have to add special salts if their tapwater isn't hard enough, using aragonite/coral isn't enough, and they usually use just that as a substrate to get more of it in the tank.
Bicarb - half a teaspoon in 100 litres water will raise the KH by 1 german degree. You need to get yours to at least 3 german deg while cycling. The best way to monitor this is with a KH tester. Bicarb is bicarbonate of soda which is sold in small tubs in the home baking section of the supermarket. Adding this will raise the KH fast, though it won't affect the GH. You need to use aragonite/ coral for that. But this is a slow process so boosting the KH fast is the quickest way to get the tank cycled. At the end of the cycle, you'll change 90% + of the water before getting fish which will get rid if the bicarb.
pH - some water companies add carbon dioxide to the water supply, which loweres the pH. Does yours change a lot on standing? Mine goes up by 0.2.
As for the testers, the way to use them is to start with the one labelled just pH. If that shows the highest colour, use the high range pH one. There is an overlap, my pH falls in this overlap so I call my water 7.5. With all the testers, if the value is off the top (or bottom) of the scale, the colour still shows as the top (or bottom) colour.
Unless the pH change on standing is huge, you don't need to let water stand before adding it to the tank during a water change.
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PH 7.8 on tap pouring and 6.6 24 hours latter
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That is a big change! If you have somewhere you could leave the water change water to stand overnight, that might be an idea. Or alternatively, do 2 smaller water changes a week once you have fish rather than one bigger one.
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Four weeks in no good bacteria yet, kh at 5 Gh at 9. ammonia at least 3 ppm ph around 7
Snails doing well
Plants so far ok
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Hmmm, that sounds odd. maybe your water company is extra good at disinfecting you water supply ???
I have a suggestion for you to try, which you don't often hear. Go out and buy a bottle of Tetra Safe Start. Just that product, don't let the shop persuade you to get anything else. And don't get it on-line as that adds another possible stage for it to be deactivated in the post. Have a look through all the packs on the shelf and if there are packs with a later use by date, get one of those.
The instructions will be for if there are fish in the tank. Don't get fish, just assume the ammonia you've added comes from fish. I haven't used the product myself but I understand the instructions have to be followed closely. The bit about not using anything that 'detoxifies' ammonia won't apply even if your dechlorinator does this as it is a while since you filled the tank and the effect should have worn off by now.
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Will have a look at the weekend, I read that it could take longer being a large tank etc so was not to worried yet.
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It doesn't take that much longer. Yes you do have to grow more bacteria because a bigger tank has more fish which make more ammonia. The bacteria can double in number in under a day, the long part is getting them started. If you think about the maths, if one bacterium survives the water company's attempts to kill them on day 1 you have 1 bacterium. On day 2 you have 2. Day 3 = 4. Day 4 = 8. Day 5 = 16. By day 10 you have 512. By day 20 you have 524288. It only takes 1 day extra to jump from a 50 litre tank's worth to a 100 litre tank's worth of bacteria.
I do realise that the real world won't work quite like that. Biological entities never follow a nice straight line - or even a nice smooth exponential curve ;D
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Ok just need to check, boiled water should be zero ammonia ?
If so I tested a sample along with a tank sample and both are same dark yellow which I was reading as 0.5 / 1 ppm so I do have no ammonia when I thought I had none.
now I did use a Tetra safe start type product to begin with when I First started my tank,
It is planted and to date I have not had any positive Nitrite readings , they are always blue, used another test kit to check same results.
I did a full water change checked readings again, zero ammonia and Nitrite, nitrate either zero or very low.
Stuck 20 Cardinal tetras in for now and will check levels twice daily, they seem happy even thou the first day they all disappeared for the first six hours in the plants before starting to venture out and play , now they are zipping around the tank :fishy1:
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Plus any ammonia in my tank would be ammonium with my lower PH level 6.8'if the shade of pale green is correct if not it is lower. This is after the water change I cycled with the ph at 7.8
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UK legislation allows up to 0.5ppm ammonia in tap water. But I think that it normally occurs in regions where chloramine is used as the disinfectant rather than chlorine. Do you know which your water company uses? It could be worth contacting them to find out.
But having said that, the API ammonia tester is quite tricky to read at very low levels, if that is the one you use. A lot of people always see the 0.25 colour even with a tank that has been running trouble free for years.
If you are using the API tester, in what lighting conditions are you reading it? Daylight or light bulb? And if under a light bulb, what kind, cfl, halogen or led?
And yes, at pH 6.8 the total ammonia as shown by the tester would have to be quite high for the toxic part to be at dangerous levels. A quick play with an ammonia calculator shows that at pH 6.8 and temp 250C, the total ammonia can go as high as 5.5 before the toxic bit reached 0.02 (the dangerous level)
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I have just completed my first fishless cycle using this method. I have a 26 litre tank containing 1 male betta and 1 bee nerite snail. It had an internal filter which the betta used to sleep on, but it was forever falling off the glass - was that the betta's fault? I have replaced it with a sponge filter driven by an air pump. Because the two filters are totally incompatible I had to cycle the sponge filter in the quarantine tank before I could use it.
Tank size - 24 litres
Filter - Aqua One filter air 30; pump - JBL pro silent a50
Water temp 29oC
I have low KH so I added one level 5ml spoonful of bicarbonate of soda to increase the KH of the water.
My bottle of ammonia is very old and a lot has evaporated; the ammonia % is now a lot less than when I bought it. I will not give the volume of ammonia used, just the ppm.
Day 1
Added enough ammonia to give a reading between 2.0 and 4.0ppm
Tested every third day, readings ammonia between 2 and 4, nitrite zero
Day 28
Ammonia 0.5, nitrite over 5
Added ammonia to give a reading between 2 and 4
Tested every second day
Day 30
Ammonia zero, nitrite over 5
Day 32
Ammonia zero, nitrite over 5
Second zero ammonia so added 1ppm ammonia
Day 34
Ammonia zero, nitrite over 5
Day 36
Ammonia zero, nitrite over 5
Second zero ammonia so added 1ppm ammonia
Day 38
Ammonia zero, nitrite over 5
Day 40
Ammonia zero, nitrite over 5
Second zero ammonia so added 1ppm ammonia
Day 42
Ammonia zero, nitrite zero. Nitrite checked twice to make sure.
Added ammonia to between 2 and 4ppm
Day 43
Ammonia 0.25, nitrite 1.0
Day 44
Ammonia zero, nitrite zero
Added 3ppm ammonia
Electricity off all afternoon, after adding the ammonia
Day 45
Ammonia zero, nitrite 2.0
Day 46
Ammonia zero, nitrite zero
Added ammonia to between 2 and 4
Day 47
Ammonia zero, nitrite between 0.5 and 1.0
Added ammonia to between 2 and 4
Day 48
Ammonia zero, nitrite zero.
Moved sponge filter into betta's tank.
Did the power cut on day 44 affect the nitrite eaters? I was expecting the nitrite on day 45 to be a lot lower.
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Congratulations Sue!! See you did beat me after all lol
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Hi guys. I have been cycling for a week and did a water test yesterday. All I added at the start was bio boost which is what I was told to add and I have been adding liquid CO2 every day and yesterday I added liquid plant food. But my tests yesterday showed Ph7,nitrite 0 , ammonia 0 and nitrate 0. I think I have not added something. I am doing a fish less cycle. The guys at the shop said I did not need to add ammonia when I asked them at the beginning.
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Hi :wave:
On the whole shops either don't believe in fishless cycling or they don't understand it. They don't seem to understand that unless you add ammonia, either from a bottle or made by fish, the bacteria we want in the tank won't have any food to enable them to multiply. Your ammonia reading was zero because you haven't added any, and your nitrite was zero because there was no ammonia to make it from.
The safest thing to do (safest for fish, that is) is to add some ammonia. If the bioboost does anything it will speed up the cycle; it may speed up the whole thing or it may speed up growing the ammonia eaters but not the nitrite eaters as most of them contain the wrong species of nitrite eating bacteria.
Ammonia in real shops is getting hard to come by. I got my bottle of Jeyes Kleen Off Household Ammonia from my local DIY shop. Otherwise look at Ebay or Amazon.
The last week, plus a few more days waiting for the ammonia to arrive, won't be wasted. You are getting your plants off to a good start, and having lots of well growing plants also shortens the cycle as they use ammonia as food - you don't need to grow as many bacteria with plants to help.
Once you have a bottle of ammonia, if it says it is 9.5% add 0.32 ml ammonia for every 10 litres of tank water. If it doesn't say, add 2ml then test after half an hour. If necessary add more to get the reading to 3ppm. Make a note of the total amount of ammonia you add, then follow the instructions in the first post in this thread.
You might find a syringe helpful to measure awkward amounts.
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Hi Cornish Bayguy :wave:
Welcome to the forum, best of luck with getting hold of the ammonia and doing your fishless cycle.
:)
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I have a confession to make.........I have shared a link to this fishless cycle method with people on the caudate forum that I joined when I got my axolotls. I hope that you don't mind.
As it happens, it's not just LFS that give poor advice or sell pets on the same day as a tank. Quite a few of the axolotl keepers have also fallen foul of this. In fact, the place in Essex where I bought my first 3 told me just to let the water stand for a few days then it would be fine. God bless my already cycled tanks, as well as those that were almost complete.
Quite a few axolotl keepers also weren't aware of the nitrogen cycle.
All of those that I have sent links to have all said that this is a very good method, written well, easy to understand, and gave much more detail than any other information they had managed to find.
So, on behalf of the global axolotl keepers, and their axolotls, I'd just like to thank Sue for writing and posting this method here. :)
If anyone is unhappy about me sharing this information on another forum, then I apologise, or deny all responsibility, whichever one will work. ;)
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I have a confession to make.........I have shared a link to this fishless cycle method with people on the caudate forum that I joined when I got my axolotls. I hope that you don't mind.
Sharing a link is the correct thing to do. :cheers:
If you had simply copied and pasted the guide that would have been bad form. ;)
I tend to copy and paste a short relevant section, to illustrate a point I'm trying to make, and then include the link to the whole guide. :isay:
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The more people know about cycling methods the better for the fish - and axolotls.
Linking is fine; as Extreme says, it's copying without acknowledging the source that is bad form.
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Sharing the link is the only way to reference the information correctly and in context. It is also useful for people to see the rest of the thread, as it may answer further questions. It also makes them aware of the site, articles and the rest of the forum, because you never know which piece of information is going to be critical to those with aquatic pets.
I just wanted Sue to be aware of the positive feedback I'd had about the fishless cycling sticky and also know how helpful it has been to others. :)
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I do appreciate the feedback :)
I have to admit that it never occurred to me that axolotl keepers would face the same problems with shops as fish keepers. When I think about it, it's obvious they would :)
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Ok I'm hoping I'm not being daft here.
I've just started my fishless cycle. I've purchased the api freshwater master test kit as well as Kleen off household ammonia. I added 1.10ml of the ammonia to the 54l of water in my tank, waited 30mins and have added the ammonia drops as per the api test kit. Now depending on how I hold up the test vial to the api chart I see different shades of green. if I hold the vial right up against the chart it's a dark green but if I hold it slightly away from the chart it's a lighter green. 1 tells me it's sitting between 2 & 4 ppm while the other tells me it's between 1 & 2 ppm.
I'm not sure if i need to add more anmonia or if I'm fine with the 1.10ml dose
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The vial should be held against the chart. It will appear paler if it is held away from the chart.
I know it is not always possible, but it is the shade of green rather than the depth of colour. The ammonia tester starts at yellow for zero then goes yellowy green to green to bluish green. You need to try and see how yellowy or how bluey the green is. I do know that is virtually impossible to do :)
If it is any help, the calculator on the site I "pinched" the method from says that 54 litres will need 1.71 ml of 9.5% ammonia to get a reading of 3 ppm. Did you measure the amount of water you put in the tank for that 54 litres?
Pinched = rewrote it in my own words, not copy it ;D
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Ok thanks sue.
I don't see yellow or blue green just green lol. It doesnt make it easy. I can see different shades of green depending on how I hold the vial against the chart.
The 54 litres is the amount of water I measured when I filled the tank. The bottle of ammonia doesn't tell me the ammonia % Do you think I should just add the extra 0.6ml? I've had a quick look on jeyes.com but couldn't find any info on the %
Thanks again
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When I bought my first bottle of Kleen Off ammonia several years ago, I emailed them to ask both the % and whether it contained anything else. Their reply was
"Our Kleenoff Ammonia is 9.5% Ammonia & the rest is water."
I kept the email for future reference :)
I think I'd split the difference and add another 0.3 ml, then see what the reading is. If it still shows less than 4 ppm, use 1.4ml as the 3 ppm dose for future doses. If it is definitely 4, then use your initial 1.1 ml dose as 3 ppm. The extra 1 ppm right at the beginning won't do any harm.
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Yeah I found out that it was 9.5% from a google search. You'd think that they would have the % on the bottle?? The brand isn't even listed on jeyes.com But that would be too easy for us lol So I went ahead and added the additional 0.6ml dose :-[ I thought if the worst comes to the worst I could flush the tank and start the cycle over with fresh water ::) I can now see that it's reading between 2 & 4ppm more clearly. I also see what you mean now by the blueish green colour. My 1st vial is a yellowy green when I sit the 2 next to each other. I'm already not liking apis colour scheme. But it's probably just because I'm not used to seeing the colour variations.
Thanks again for your help sue :cheers:
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This is where I found the ammonia http://www.ukconsumerinfo.com/productdetails.aspx?prod=417
There is a 'contact us' at the top of the page, which is how I emailed them.
Unfortunately, most home ammonia testers are the salicylate test, and they are all the same colour change.
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it is what it is I suppose. My cycle has started so I'm happy :D
I will email jeyes though just to see
Thanks again sue
I'll no doubt be asking more later down the line
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How much chemistry have you studied? At the risk of saying what you already know (and in case anyone else reading this wonders) the link gives the contents as ammonium hydroxide. This is formed when ammonia dissolves in water, so ammonia solution is ammonium hydroxide.
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I never studied chemistry at school only physics.
So there's no risk of you saying what I already know. I'm sure I'll know a lot more about it with this venture though
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Ok so today is my 3rd day into my cycle and I've just tested my water for ammonia and nitrite. I believe that my ammonia lvl is the same as day 1 around 3ppm and that my nitrite lvls are about 0.75ppm. I've attached a couple of photos showing the vials. I'd appreciate if somebody could confirm this. I need to get my head round these colours.
Thanks in the advance
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To my mind the nitrite shows that you already have some ammonia eating bacteria at work turning ammonia into nitrite. But because 1 ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7 ppm nitrite, it doesn't take much of a reduction in ammonia to show a reading for nitrite. I know that screen settings can make the colours look different, but your nitrite looks around 0.25, which means you've lost 0.1 ppm ammonia - and this is hardly detectable.
Be prepared for the nitrite colour to shoot up to the highest on the chart. Our kits don't measure very high (the API nitrite tester only goes up to 5 ppm) and nitrite will get higher. As long as it remains under 15 ppm, that's fine.
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When I tested my plain tap water for nitrite it was blue. So I'm on my way to seeding my filter 😀
How would I know that my nitrite lvls are below 15ppm if the kit only measures up to 5ppm?
But all I'm looking for right now is my ammonia to be less than 0.75 and nitrite to be over 2 at which point I add another full dose of ammonia. And start testing every 2 days instead of 3
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The method was written so that , if followed properly, nitrite can never get over 15. But you can always mix some tank water with tap water and test that. 1 part tank to 3 parts tap should get the reading somewhere on the scale. It won't be terribly accurate without very precise measuring equipment but it will give a rough idea of how high it is.
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Right ok. I won't be straying away from your guide anyway. I will do the 3/1 testing though when my nitrite test reads 5+ppm. Let's me see the colour variations as well. Thanks again sue
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Ok so I'm on my 3rd test day for ammonia and nitrite after adding my initial dose of ammonia. I'm still struggling with the colour chart which is really beginning to annoy me as it shouldn't be this difficult. So today I tested the ammonia in my tank water, 3/1 ratio of tap/tank water and straight tap water. I'd appreciate people's comments on this please. Straight tap water is definitely yellow. 3/1 ratio to me looks like it's between 0.5 & 1ppm which would put my tank water between 1.5 & 3ppm
Thanks in advance
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Here is my nitrite test vials
Tank water, 3/1 ratio tap/tank water and straight tap water
Again straight tap water is definitely zero
3/1 ratio looks to be between 0 and 0.25ppm maybe even 0.5ppm
Which puts my tank result at 0.75 & 1.5ppm
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:wave:
@FoundNemo
Here's my take on your readings:-
NH3
I agree with your interpretation of colours.
Tank I see closer to 1ppm than 2ppm
3:1 mix nearer 0.50ppm
Tap zero
NO2
Tank, I think, is spot on 2.0ppm
3:1 mix spot on 0.25ppm
Tap zero
The problem is that printed colours never come out as natural, yellow in particular. There's a technical term for it that I can't recall for the moment. I have the same problem with my NT Labs tests where my NH3 always comes out a light straw colour but the card shows a deep yellow. Your API tests also have a lot of blues and greens. You're not colourblind by any chance?
Unless you use some fancy, i.e. expensive, kit, whatever measure you get is going to be an approximation and also bear in mind that we're dealing in very small concentrations, parts per million.
:cheers:
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I had just finished typing when Adenann posted, but I'll post what I'd written anyway.....
It can be difficult comparing colours on a computer screen, but your readings look to me:
Ammonia -
Tap - zero
Pure tank - slightly less than 2 but not nearly as low as 1
Diluted - 0.5
Nitrite -
Tap - zero
Pure tank - the 2 and 5 colours look the same on my screen, so your vial could be either :-\
Diluted - 0.25
It is quite difficult to make really accurate testers for use in the home. People's eyesight varies which adds in other inaccuracy factor. Labs use colour sensing equipment to get accurate results, which is impractical and unaffordable for home use, so we are stuck with our test kits - unless you want to buy a colorimeter.
Have you seen the progress of my fishless cycle at the bottom of the actual method? That should give an idea of what to expect.
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Thank you adenann and sue.
@adenann I'm not coloured blind. I would have said if I was as that's a bit of critical info.
I only came to my tank water conclusions after testing both the 3/1 and tap for a comparison, so I think I may just carry on doing it that way.
@Sue I have read through your guide several times. It's probably just my 1st time jitters.
Thanks again
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I have only actually done 2 fishless cycles, one in 2016 using this method and one in 2013 using the older fishless method. But I had tested my tank on countless occasions before I did the two cycles, so I was very familiar with the testers.
All sorts of things can affect the way we see colours. I have a yellow cataract developing in my right eye (apparently there are several types of cataract and my optician says I have a yellow one). If I look at white typing on a black screen and close one eye, the text looks pale yellow with my right eye and bluish with my left eye. This probably distorts the way I see colours, and once the cataract gets to a certain stage and it is replaced, I'll probably have trouble seeing true colours again till my brain adapts.
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Nothing wrong with first time jitters.
I still get a bit twitchy with cycling tanks and I've done quite a few in the past 18 months, seeded with mature media from other tanks. :)
We all want the best for our fishy friends and want to create a great environment that they will be happy in.
Keep at it, it will all work out in the end. :cheers:
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Hi all,
For anybody reading I just want to confirm my successful cycle following Sue's kind help.
Here is a little breakdown:
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Nice one. :) I am on the 4th day of cycling my shrimp tank so early days for me.
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Hi all,
For anybody reading I just want to confirm my successful cycle following Sue's kind help.
Here is a little breakdown:
@kuukelite
If you now add 3ppm ammonia does it disappear along with nitrites within 24 hours?
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Hi @Matt unfortunately not, I decided a couple of days later to double check it had cycled and added the 3ppm, 24 hours later I still had nitrite, around 2. I am now back on 24 hour stage!
Glad I checked!! Not sure why on the 11th I got zero readings of both ammonia/nitrite after 24 hours 3ppm!
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So a quick update, im now 51 days into the cycle and about to give up on it.
Thought the tank had cycled twice (day 21) and then again (day 31) but i have never had it processing 3ppm in 24 hours consistently.
Its now been 48 hours since I added 3ppm and I still have between 0 - 0.25 ammonia left. It feels like I am going backwards!!
Here is my log for anybody interested in helping me from smashing my fish tank! P.s. some mistakes were made:-
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Can i ask what method/kit you are using to test for ammonia?
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It’s the API test kit mate.
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It is usually the nitrite stage that takes forever.
When you read the ammonia test, what is the lighting - daylight, electric light? If electric light, what kind? Fluorescent lights, both traditional tubes and compact fluorescent energy saving bulbs, are known to make the ammonia test look greener than it really is.
A lot of people never see the yellow of zero ammonia even after several years. I have even seen a suggestion that some people have eyes that see colours differently.
Before you give up completely, can I suggest you enter your reading in this calculator.
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
Set salinity to zero, enter your ammonia reading, temp and pH then click calculate. You want the lower number on the right hand side, NH3 concentration.
Ammonia exists in two forms in water - toxic ammonia and much less toxic ammonium. Our test kits test for them both combined. The amount that is ammonia varies with temp and pH, and the calculator tells you how much much of your 'ammonia + ammonium' reading is actually ammonia. If the number from the calculator is 0.02 or less you are cycled regardless of the colour of the tester.
Are you using a higher temp for cycling, and will turn the heater down when you get fish? The proportion in the ammonia state is higher at higher temps, so when you lower the temp for fish, the amount of ammonia will be even lower.