Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: sjames on January 11, 2017, 08:54:49 AM
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So I am now 11 days in.
My readings last night: Ammonia 4ppm and Nitrites 5ppm. I'm scared! The last ammonia was put in 3 days ago. PH7.4
I did a 30% water change 2 days ago as well.
My plants are doing well, but a few are shedding leaves below and growing above, if that makes sense, but I do try and keep these cleaned.
Should I just do a big water change? I did about 50% 6 days ago.
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When you last added ammonia, did you test half an hour after adding it to check how much you'd added? In other words, I'm asking did you add 3 ppm or 4 or more ppm 3 days ago.
If you did add just 3 ppm, it could be the substrate that's increased the ammonia. I've just looked at your other posts and see you used ADA aqua soil. This is known to release ammonia into the water. And that ammonia is going to make fishless cycling more complicated because you have ammonia going into the tank from 2 sources.
Can you let me know exactly how much ammonia you have added over what timescale, and what your tank readings have been during the 11 days. Then we can see if it is the aqua soil, and if it is, work out the best way to proceed.
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Hi Sue,
For the first few days I didn't add anything and also didn't get any of the immediate ammonia spike they forecasted.
I added 4ppm first day, reading 30 mins later 3ppm.
3 days later and ammonia reading was 1ppm, nitrites <1ppm. Added 3ppm, reading 4ppm.
3 days later ammonia reading was 2ppm, nitrite 1ppm - added 2ppm, reading 4ppm
2 days later (last night) readings as shown, nothing added.
Above from memory as have my notes at home.
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That does sound as though the aqua soil has started leaching ammonia. With the level of nitrite now in the tank ammonia should have dropped.
I would do a water change to get the ammonia reading down to 1 ppm. Test the ammonia level before you start and if it's still 4 ppm, aim for a 75% water change. if it's gone up, do a bigger volume.
Don't add any ammonia.
Half an hour after the water change (to allow the new water to mix in) test for ammonia and nitrite so you have a starting point.
Then test both after 24 hours and every 24 hours for the next few days. If by Saturday your ammonia level has stayed the same or even gone down, then add another 3 ppm dose of ammonia and continue the fishless cycle as per the method.
But if by Saturday you ammonia has gone up, you'll know it's the aqua soil. In this scenario, I would do a water change whenever the ammonia level reaches 3 ppm as you don't want it higher. The cycle might take longer if the soil is leaching ammonia as your nitrite might well get high enough to stall the cycle, but as you can't add fish until it stops leaching ammonia, you'd have to wait anyway :-\
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Sue, also meant to mention I was persuaded and ended using Tropica substrate with gravel as opposed ADA soil. Not so much influence re ammonia (?)
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That does make a difference.
But I'd still do what I suggest just in case. At least that will eliminate or otherwise the substrate and it'll only add a day or two to the cycle.
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Thanks Sue.....I will see what the readings are tonight and will do the change as necessary.
I wanted the plants, so these situations are actually fine, as I am learning so much along the way. Thanks to all here as without the insight and feedback it would have been hopeless.
On the plus side, the plants seem to be doing well, and I find the tank mesmerising anyway. I used the Interpet Tri Spec High Output LED light, and the app controller is now launched, so the sunrise and sunset settings are fascinating, mixing blue gentle breaking light before a gradual element of white and then red, up to the settings you make.
I am enjoying all aspects of this, although my wife is a bit bored that I keep talking about it and not much else. The kids just keep saying when are we getting fish!
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morning Sue, some reasonable news, my readings last night - ammonia was 0ppm, nitrite 4ppm, nitrate 5ppm
I think that's alright? I added a 1/3 dose of ammonia, was this right?
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Did you do the water change or did the ammonia go down by itself?
Let me get this straight in my mind.
On Jan 10, you had readings of ammonia 4, nitrite 5. You added ammonia 2 days before that to get 4 ppm (and I have just realised you said that the ammonia was 2 ppm on that occasion so you added another 2. More about this later.)
And on 12 Jan you have 0 ammonia, 4 nitrite.
If the ammonia did drop by itself without a water change, wait another 2 days and test again on 14 Jan. If the ammonia is still zero, you have 2 zero ammonia readings 2 days apart so add the 1 ppm dose then, on 14 Jan and only if ammonia is zero again.
Re that 2 ppm dose ammonia you added a few days ago
I added 4ppm first day, reading 30 mins later 3ppm.
3 days later and ammonia reading was 1ppm, nitrites <1ppm. Added 3ppm, reading 4ppm.
3 days later ammonia reading was 2ppm, nitrite 1ppm - added 2ppm, reading 4ppm
2 days later (last night) readings as shown, nothing added.
Above from memory as have my notes at home.
The method says that after adding the first dose of ammonia, test every 3 days and wait till ammonia drops below 0.75, and nitrite is above 2.0. So you shouldn't have added that 2 ppm ammonia, you should have waited till you had the test results on 13 Jan. This extra ammonia accounts for the readings
Sorry, I should have spotted that yesterday :-[
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Hi Sue, its weird I have read the cycle info so many times, sometimes its so clear and next I obviously get confused.
I added ammonia on the 8th - the Ammonia reading was 2pmm (I added a further 2ppm).
10th the reading was Ammonia 4ppm and Nitrites 5ppm. did nothing.
11th - (no water change) - reading was Ammonia 0ppm and Nitrites 4ppm. I added 1pmm, so I should have waited until reading on the 13th checking for 0ppm ammonia before adding.
I will test on the 13th (2 days after adding, hoping for 0ppm ammonia, and then on the 15th hope for the same reading - if 0ppm ammonia and >1ppm nitrites, then add 1/3 dose. Just to check if the reading happened to be 0ppm ammonia and <1ppm, full dose.
Crikey it seems so easy, you must tear your hair out!
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I'll use my fishless cycle from last year as an example
Day 1 - added ammonia Stage #1
Day 4 - no change
Day 7 - no change
Day 10 - no change
Day 13 - no change
Day 16 - ammonia still same but just a hint of nitrite though still well below 0.25
Day 19 - same as day 16
Day 21 - ammonia still showing between 1 and 2 and nitrite the merest hint. Got frustrated and did a 100% water change then added ammonia to give a reading between 2 and 4 ppm.
Day 24 - ammonia between 1 and 2, nitrite 0. The ammonia dropped from 2 - 4 to 1 -2 but no idea where it went.
Day 26 - tested after 2 days because getting fed up. Ammonia 1 to 2. Nitrite merest hint.
Day 28 - ammonia 0.5 nitrite > 5 (off the top of the chart). Added ammonia to ~ 3ppm Stage #6
Day 30 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5
Day 32 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5. Zero ammonia on 2 test 2 days apart, added the one third dose of ammonia. Stage #8
Day 34 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5
Day 36 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5. Zero ammonia in 2 tests 2 day apart, added the one third dose of ammonia Stage #8 again
Day 38 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5
Day 40 - ammonia 0, nitrite >5. Zero ammonia on 2 tests 2 days apart, added a one third dose of ammonia. Stage #8 again
Day 42 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Added a 2 to 4 ppm dose ammonia Stage #10
Day 43 - ammonia 0.25, nitrite 1.0
Day 44 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Added 2 to 4 ppm ammonia. Stage #10 again Then power went off for 4 hours.
Day 45 - ammonia 0, nitrite 2 - was the cycle affected by the power cut?
Day 46 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Added ammonia to 2 to 4 ppm Stage #10 again
Day 47 - ammonia 0, nitrite between 0.5 and 1. Added ammonia to between 2 and 4 ppm Stage #10 yet again
Day 48 - ammonia 0, nitrite 0. Finally stage #14
Ignore the dose of ammonia added on day 21 - I only added that because I removed all the water from the tank and replaced it with all new water so I had to replace the ammonia I'd put in on day 1.
On day 28 ammonia had finally dropped to below 0.75 and nitrite was over 2.0 so I added the second 3 ppm dose of ammonia and continued testing every two days.
On day 30 I had zero ammonia and nitrite over 1 for the first time.
On day 32 I had zero ammonia and nitrite over 1 for the second time so I added a 1 ppm dose of ammonia and continued testing every 2 days.
Zero ammonia and nitrite over 1 on days 34 and 36 so added another 1ppm dose of ammonia and continued testing every two days.
Zero ammonia and nitrite over 1 on days 38 and 40 so added another 1 ppm dose of ammonia. Continued testing every 2 days.
Day 42 finally had ammonia below 0.25 and nitrite below 1.0. Added a 3 ppm dose of ammonia and started testing every day.
Day 43 - both above zero. Test again next day.
Day 44 - both zero so added another 3 ppm dose of ammonia.
Unfortunately we then had a power cut in the afternoon of day 44 which seemed to affect the cycle, so it didn't follow a nice pattern from here, but you can see the pattern for the last few days of the cycle.
Just continue as my cycle from day 42 to day 44 until you get zero ammonia and zero nitrite 24 hours after adding 3 ppm ammonia.
Does this help :)
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Thanks Sue.
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Update....
2 consecutive readings (every other day) 0 ammonia, Nitrites still high.
Added 1/3 dose, see what happens over next set of readings. Think I have got it now. Progress I n the cycle.
Have a lone snail, obviously from the plants. Tiny and as non purchased I don't suppose I'll know what species it is.
When do I consider cleaning filter, not in the cycle I guess (if I do it's in the aquarium water being removed)?
Thanks
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Your cycle sounds as though it is progressing nicely :)
Unless you have plants that are losing bits and clogging the filter you shouldn't need to do a filter clean during cycling.
Is the snail a tiny flat spiral? That's a species of ramshorn. If it looks like this (http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_Physa_Snail.php) these are called (sometime incorrectly) pest snails, tadpole snails, pond snails and bladder snails.
Both types will breed readily in an aquarium, and being pests they'll survive the ammonia. The snails we want, like nerites, are killed by ammonia.
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Hi Sue, I'd say it is similar to that picture. It's very small. would you remove it ; kind of nice to have an animal living in the tank, even a pest.
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It's up to you.
The problem is there's probably more than one. And they breed worse than rabbits. You can control them to some extent once you have fish by not overfeeding them - too much fishfood = snail population explosion.
However, much as some people hate snails they are an integral part of fish ecosystems. They are not a bad thing, just unsightly if there are too many of them.
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When I started keeping live plants, I found 3 snails (each of which I removed) and then one instance of a lone snail which I rehomed to a pond (as I assumed more would follow - this didn't happen, though). Sometimes I do wonder if I ought to have kept him. I can understand that desire to have something living in the tank, so, if I were you, I'd keep a hold of him and wait to see if others do appear or not.
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Hi FCMF, that's my thoughts, and I don't have the heart to dispose of him (her?) anyway.
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When I first had snails appear in my tank quite a few years ago I thought that snails were bad. We had no internet back then and all the rather old library books said snails carry parasites and had no place in an aquarium. So I did my best to get rid of them, failed, gave up and accepted they were there to stay.
Now I know that snails are not bad and I am quite happy to have them. I have both small ramshorns (some species grow to over 2 inches but you have to buy those!) and the pond/tadpole etc snails. If I see them on the glass during a water change, I do suck them up but there are so many more left behind.
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That's how I feel about my loan pest, he/she is staying.
Human nature - I have been so patient taking my time doing things properly. My tank, I think was ready 21st November, I was away in early December, wanted plants, so delayed to get this all done in the right order and now my cycle is (hopefully) probably 2/3 through;
I'm now screaming at it to finish, so I can get some fish. :vcross:
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I now have the nitrites down to 0.5ppm (ammonia 0).
Could well be at stage 10. I have added a full dose.
Will be testing each day now, just checking that if tmrw its 0 and 0 that is that, if I get any readings I leave and test each day until the next 0-0 and then add full dose and repeat until I get a following 24 hrs whereby its 0-0.
I've now gone to it cant be as easy as that surely. Now have 2 x snail pests.
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I'm in, my tank has been cycled. A big thank you to those that assisted this first stage, thanks in particular to Sue. You need to actually do it before you truly get it, I think.
Saturday night I did an 80-90% water change and yesterday tested all again, before my first visit to the shop. I have now got 20 Amano Shrimp and 7 Emperor tetra.
Its incredible to see the algae, which on the wood looked like quite a bit, already cleaned as at an hour or so ago.
Fed the fish today a small amount, as recommend for the first time, together with the shrimp food, under recommendation. All very exciting.
My question for today, I want to keep the tank as healthy as possible, so is there any problems with doing frequent water changes. I would prefer to do little and often as opposed larger less frequently, but do not want to stress the fish. I was thinking 10% every 3-4 days (that's 2 buckets in my 256l).
Thanks
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7 emperor tetras and 20 amano shrimps in 256 litres is not a very large bioload so for this number of fish, 10% is fine.
But I assume you will be getting more fish? Don't leave it much more than a week, two at most or the bacteria you have just grown won't have enough food for all of them and most will become dormant. The longer they are dormant, the longer it takes them to 'wake up' when you get more fish to make more ammonia.
Once you have a tank full of fish you need to change at least 25% every week, with more being better. 10% twice a week will give you 19% new water a week (the second one will remove 10% of the new water you added at the previous water change). Two 15% water changes will give you 27.75% new water which is better. Personally I would do two 20% changes or one 30 to 40% change.
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Thanks Sue.....the shop told me not to start with anymore fish. I will go back and get my next batch, probably tomorrow or Weds.
What you say makes perfect sense so I will probably start with 15% twice per week and see how this goes.
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The shop assumes you are starting a fish-in cycle :-\ For fish-in cycling the advice is good but not for a tank that has completed a fishless cycle.
It's not worth mentioning that you've done a fishless cycle though as very few shops believe in fishless cycling and have no idea that you can stock almost to the max as soon as the cycle finishes. However some shops (Pets@Home in particular) won't sell more than a certain small number of fish at one go to any customer regardless of whether the tank is cycled or how big it is, so you may find you need to buy from more than one shop, or go to the same shop every day.
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I love Amano shrimp. I thought all of mine had disappeared and two days ago there were six of them swimming around happily. :) They're fully grown so how they become invisible I do not know.
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The larger female amano shrimp in my temperate tanks certainly don't become invisible. Recently they have taken to swimming to the front of the tank at feeding time and stealing the sinking mini wafers I put in for the cories. The shrimp then swim to the top of the filter with the wafer to enjoy it in peace. The poor cories are left wondering what they are supposed to eat. ::)
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I've definitely joined the amano shrimp fan club, they are awesome with their one dimensional approach to cleaning and eating. My children love the confident ones who are first to the top to grab some food.
The emperor males are at it with their gesturing, already the colours are becoming quite vivid and they are splaying their fins trying to impress.
I will be adding later or tomorrow as per Sues guidance.
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Pics of the fishies please. :D
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photography is tricky, but a couple as close as I could, in a full landscape you cant see very much.
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another
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Thanks, they look good. :)
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Looks awesome @sjames :cheers:
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Very nice. :cheers:
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thanks, I love it.
Appreciate all the help and advice, it seems daunting to begin if you want to try and do it properly without having any experience - until you go through it.....I am sure to have issues, and I know you all have the knowledge to assist if and when.
Sue i've added 6 x original rosy barbs, 2 x honey gourami and 4 x Ottocinclus affinis (dwarf algae eater - is this its common name?)
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That all sounds good - but keep an eye on the otos. They often fare poorly in new tanks - that is, tanks that have not had time to grow algae yet. This is otos main diet. If you don't have much algae yet, you'll need to supplement their diet - algae wafers, a slice of courgette or even sushi nori if you can stand the mess.
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thanks Sue, I did buy some algae wafers, I will keep a watchful eye
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My first calamity.
One of my otos has gone, I cant believe it, it was caught in the outlet pipe. I can only assume that he was on a plant which is very close to the outlet and couldn't get away - to describe he was lengthways, vertically against the holes, and probably couldn't break away. I have moved the outlet to the very corner away from any object/plant. I feel gutted.
They are so small, I have watched everything swim by the outlet and whilst some movement change with the fish nothing has had any issues, shrimp included. :(
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With the size of the tank I assume you have an external filter? And by outlet pipe, do you mean the pipe that takes the water from the tank towards the filter?
There are ways of fish-proofing such a tube, mainly by covering the end of the tube by anything from a pair of tights (or better, a knee high sock) to a chunk of sponge with a slit cut in it.
But the fact that the oto couldn't swim away does suggest it was weak. This is a known problem with otos. They are wild caught, the stored by the catcher, shipped overseas, kept at the wholesaler, then shipped to the shop. They are rarely fed with algae during this time and once an oto reaches a certain level of starvation it can't start eating again. Otos are well known for dying shortly after purchase because of this.
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Yes that's right, they have a bacteria in their gut which helps them to digest the algae and diatoms they eat. If this bacteria is not fed regularly it can die, leaving the fish unable to digest its food and slowly starving to death. :'(
Not a pleasant way to go at all, I always buy Ottos from a store which has already kept them alive for a while first.
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I didn't know that, Matt.
Like termites rely on microbes in their gut to digest cellulose in wood. I remember from biology that if you heat a termite to a certain temperature it doesn't kill the termite but it does kill the microbes and then the termite starves to death
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It makes me sad to read that. The others have been on the wafer and seem to be ok . I do have an external filter so will cover the outlet.
I am going to the store to talk to them. It's a specialist independent store, and they seem to know their stuff, but I will ask how long they've been with them.
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I use a filter intake sponge on my canister filter. Not only does it protect your fishies it also acts as a pre-filter so the canister filter material doesn't get dirty as quickly or get blocked by large bits in the hose. I have a quarantine tank and if I need it at any point I'll replace the filter intake sponge with a new one and use the good bacteria from the old one in the quarantine filter.
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Update: Added 6 dwarf neon rainbowfish and four more Otos (different shop and bigger than my initial ones) making 7.
The others seem to be very happy, active, thriving. My otos and shrimp seem to have gotten much stronger and bigger. Had some shedding, which I first thought were losses, but taking out, it was pure exo so great.
Todays question please:
My water seems to have a lot of particles. The filter flow is excellent.
I've tested today, readings are all good (nitrate between 5-10ppm)(ammonia & nitrite both 0). I did a 20% water change on Saturday and about a 15% last night.
I have upped my CO2 at the weekend as a couple of plants weren't too brill, so I think I just have an element of the shrimp doing their gardening.
Do I need to swill the filter, my reluctance only comes from the fact I test every 2 days and take delight in my readings including nitrates.
thanks
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If you haven't already cleaned the filter media, I would see what it is like. When dirty, they are usually covered with brown goo which needs to be gently washed off. With a new filter you need to be extra gentle as the biofilm won't be completely bedded in yet. Squeeze sponges in a bit of tank water that you've removed from the tank, and swoosh any ceramic media.
If the particles are very fine, adding some filter wool (aka filter floss) might help trap them as they are too small to be trapped by a sponge. You can buy rolls of it or a length cut off a roll. Shops that also sell pond supplies are more likely to sell it like this.
Filter wool doesn't wash well as it goes into holes very easily but as it is not a very good home for the bacteria it can be changed regularly with out affecting the bacteria colonies.
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thanks Sue is it ok to do with a decent sized water change or is this too much in one go?
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You can do it with a water change of any size because there are virtually no filter bacteria in the water so it won't cause any problems.
Provided you remember to dechlorinate the new water and use warmed water ;)
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Morning Sue, I did clean the three layers of filter media, by gently rinsing in removed tank water (I didn't do the bottom ceramic this time). There was plenty of 'gunge' particularly in the first layer.
I did note the water left in the bottom of the filter was rather dirty as well. I wondered if it was correct to drain this off, I didn't, as I wondered about too much too soon. Are the bacteria in this environment or are they all on the filter media? Appreciate your advices as always. The readings remain good, but the water remains not so clear.
thanks
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The bacteria we want live attached to surfaces. They live in the biofilm which covers all the surfaces in the tank. Filter media is designed to have a huge surface area (think of the surface of all those bubbles in sponges) which is one reason bacteria like it in there. The media is also in the dark and has lots of food and oxygen laden water passing through, which encourage the filter bacteria to grow in there.
In a brand new cycling tank the biofilm is still forming which is why you need to be gentle cleaning the media.
The brown gunge does not contain many bacteria, it is mainly organic waste - when you have fish, their poo, uneaten food and bits of dead plant break down to make this gunge. However, there is possibly some biofilm forming on the bits in the gunge.
Next time you open the filter I would be inclined to pour away the dirty water but don't wash the casing of the filter as there will be biofilm growing on that. Plenty of time to rinse the casing once the tank is cycled.
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Brill thanks
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Just thought I'd give an update....unsure if anybody is overly interested, but everyday something is learned.
So a couple of weeks ago I upped my co2. Started to get foam in the corner of the tank. It took my child who looked up, the honey gourami have laid eggs as of yesterday, and he was preparing, I also didn't know who the fiend was tearing up a buy of plant life!
The male is chasing everything, even the female. I don't hold out much hope as I don't have another tank, and I'm going away for 10 days.
I have a fish feeder, under strict instruction, my mother, and have just done a big change, hence another reason for the gourami to feel upset. She can top up dechloribated but not a water change. I think I'll be fine overall.
Regards
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I've had honey gouramis spawn in my tanks, the behaviour of the male you describe is usually what alerted me to look. Sometimes the eggs managed to hatch but the fry never lasted long once they became free swimming.
I don't know if you regularly top up the water between changes. Doing it as a one-off is OK but not as a regular thing using tap water as the mineral content will increase and the water get harder. If you do top up regularly, you need to use RO or DI water.
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Hi Sue I do top up - I'm using fluval aqua plus water conditioner everytime no matter how little or much (in the doses recommended). I've only ever used treated tap water, is this wrong ?
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If the water in the tank evaporates, water goes out of the tank but the minerals dissolved in the water stay behind.
Imagine a 100 litre tank. You fill it with 100 litres of water which contains 100 litres worth of dissolved minerals. 5 litres of water evaporates leaving its mineral behind, then you add 5 litre tap water with a full set of minerals. Now you have 100 litres water again but 105 litres worth of mineral. The more tap water you top up with, the more minerals you put in the water so it gets harder and harder.
If you top up with pure water (RO, deionised etc) you add just water, no minerals so the hardness remains the same.
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What's pure water?
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As Sue mentioned, it has no minerals in it.
You can get reverse osmosis (RO) water from aquatics stores. It's usually used for marine set ups, and has a specific amount of minerals, etc added to it prior to use.
Deionised water is just another method for getting pure water.
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Ok, all my readings looked good including ph. I thought the treatment did the job. Do I buy in certain volumes and store at home? Is this just for topping up?
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I don't do top ups, I find it easier to do water changes and remove water from the tank then replace with dechlorinated tap water. By removing water from the tank you take out some of the excess/concentrated minerals before adding the dechlorinated water, which removes the requirement for RO/DI water that would be used for top ups.
If you want to top up most fish stores sell containers of RO water for a few pounds for 25L.
Top ups with RO or water changes would both be suitable to ensure that you don't increase your levels of minerals in the tank to unsuitable levels.
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Just to make things clearer - plain RO or deionised water is just for top ups between water changes. Weekly water changes still need to be done, and these can use tap water as you remove as many minerals as you put in.
By plain RO I mean RO water as it is made, and that the shop has not added anything to it.
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Thought I'd show my tank after 3 months or so...thanks to all that have helped. It takes some work but the reward is great.
My Emperor Tetras had some sort of bacteria infection which I managed to treat...one in particular lost all his lustre and I was genuinely concerned, all good now though although I'm watching very closely. I am unsure how the infection happened, and since this I've added an additional skimmer pump to add a bit more flow and oxygen. All the chemical readings hadn't shown anything.
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The tank and occupants look fantastic.
Glad to hear that you successfully treated the infection too.
Well done. :cheers:
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The tank looks absolutely amazing :fishy1:
How are your plants doing?
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Wow - how colourful and very professional your tank/decor/inhabitants look(s). You ought to be very proud and the fish very happy.
:cheers:
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The tank looks absolutely amazing :fishy1:
How are your plants doing?
Thanks for the comments, I'm genuinely delighted. I now know this is a hobby that gets you completely, and the effort is worthwhile.
Mixed reaction re the plants, in the main ok, I needed more CO2 which brought other 'unwanted growth', but I hope I've got a balance. In all honesty, plants make everything very tricky, but I believe the results justify. The male gourami keeps trying to build a nest so he continues the plant onslaught, with the skimmer filter though its a catch 22, but he hasn't realised yet.