Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: rosaleen on June 04, 2016, 05:09:50 PM
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HI
Not sure if this is the right section to post my query, so apologies if it is.
In the last 3 months my fish have been slowly dying off, by about 30% .
I've removed some of the dead which I found at the bottom of the tank. None showed any signs of disease, none were seen gasping for air or had buoyancy problems.
I checked at my local MA, yesterday, who suggested possible bacterial problems, thinking I might have be over keen with cleaning the media even though I've been doing it the same way for about 5 years. Is there are likely/possible alternative cause?
Anyway this morning I cleaned the filter media(it was due). Instead of replacing the oldest layer of filter floss, which I would normally do, because there was VERY little debris (it's an oversized filter for my tank capacity). due to the lower amount of waste material I cleaned it instead and put it back in.
Did I do the right thing?
I also bought some Aqua balls, wanting to avoid a chemical route, and put them in the tank the second best location ( unfortunately I read the instructions about the best location for them being IN the filter AFTER sorting out the filter -and setting it up again). Can add an extra couple of balls to 'make up' for the balls not being in the effective place? Or not?
Many many thanks
Rosie
PS Before I really started looking at how there was some clear reduction in my number I bought 5 Albino Corys , mid March lost 2, and then stupidly with hindsight, bought another 5 more recently. So 10 in total. I now have 2 of them left.
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Can I just get this straight in my mind.
Is it just cories that have died?
Are there any other fish in the tank that are unaffected?
Did you buy all the cories from the same shop?
A few of us, including me, have experienced this with pygmy and habrosus cories; we buy a shoal and they die one by one. I currently have just 2 pygmies and 2 habrosus left from shoals bought the way you bought yours (ie by some, some die so buy more, then more die)
The only thing we have been able to come up with is that these small cories would appear to do badly in shoals of less than 10 and in tanks with bigger fish. But albinos are bigger, which suggests something wrong with them, probably from when they were bought.
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Hi rosaleen
Can you talk us through how you clean your filter media? It should be done in old tank water or dechlorinated tap water to avoid killing the beneficial bugs.
Furthermore, you should never recommend place more than 2/3 of your media at one time and aqua balls definitely do need to bring in the filter to work.
Hope that helps, I'm sure that between the members of this forum, we can sort this out for you :)
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Do you test your water parameters?
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Hi
Thanks for all your posts I really appreciate it. I'll try to cover all your questions.
Firstly cories, I should have said the first five were peppered cories, definitely bought mid March
The second lot of five, were albino cories bought mid April I THINK. Both lots were bought at the same place.
They were not the only ones I have lost.........
6 neons in December went down 2 now
6. Red phantom tetras in December 1 now
6 shrimps December 3 now
5 copper harlequins December 2 now.
1 rabbit snail OK
1 Bristlenose OK
6 penguin tetras December 4 now.
3 Rummy nose tetras December. 0 now
Cleaning the filter. I slways use the old tank water straight after I've done a water change.
I always test the water when I do a water change. And to check my parameters were right this time I'd had the water tested at the MA the day before I did the clean.. They used the strip tests which I'd never seen before. Some slight variation but nothing untoward.
Sorry your advice about 2/3 of the media I couldn't quite understand. Typo error?
In the filter there are 3 layers of filter floss. I normally replace the oldest layer, the dirtiest, with new floss. But because of the possibility of insufficient bacteria, I didn't this time. There was very little dirt on it.
The two other floss layers, the 2 different sponges and the bio ceramics are cleaned in the old tank water.
Thanks for the info on the aqua balls., interestingly I'd put them in an old net by the intake strainer and they'd disappeared / dissolved by the next day.
The thing which might be a problem is the temperature. IF I have gleaned the right info(different sites recommend different temps) The rabbit snail "needs warm water" 27degree upwards and the cory "likes cooler water" below 26."
I hadn't checked this before. I got the cories. And it doesn't explain the other deaths.
Thanks again for your help. I hope I've covered all the points you made.
Rosie
This doesn't explain the other deaths
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Ok I'm stumped... :vcross:
Do you use a gravel vacuum?
Can you send a link to the 'aqua balls' - I'm not sure I've got the right product in mind...
Can you post some test results - others may be able to decipher theses for you...
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Do you know the pH and hardness of your water?
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Hi, apologies for the delay in getting back to you both.
Yes I use a gravel vacuum
www.evolutionaqua.com is the website. I am using the pure aquarium balls. This was recommended by the MA on the basis that the problem might be a bacterial one.
My API tests are.........
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5-20
Ammonia .25
PH 8.2
The strip test done by the MA showed (rightly or wrongly)
Ph 7.2-8
Nitrate 100
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 1.0. As you can see they do not match my API tests! I'm not sure how accurate they are meant to be.
Looking through the the records I kept my parameters have been roughly the same since at least 1914 (and that includes having a new test kit 2015) the one exception is the nitrate which went up slowly last year but I brought it down again by putting ceretopteris plants in the tank which have since been mostly eaten.
Re hardness, Sue on this forum has explained to me in the past that it and the KH are high because I live in London, but I can't give you an exact figure.
Apologies again for not getting back to you straight away. I do appreciate your help
Rosie
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The nitrate test - do you make sure you shake bottle #2 very well before using it, then shake the test tube for 1 minute before starting the 5 minute timer? Failure to shake bottle #2 is the most common cause of inaccurate nitrate readings. It contains a reagent that settles out to the bottom of the bottle. All that shaking is necessary to redissolve this reagent. In fact, most people shale the bottle even more than the instructions say.
If the nitrate reading does prove to be high, it is an indication that you have too many fish or you aren't doing enough/big enough water changes or you are overfeeding the fish. High nitrate also means that other things we can't test for (eg plant hormones) are also high.
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Hi, you have an ammonia level of .25? This is the likely cause. In alkaline water it is very toxic. You might not see any signs but chronic ammonia poisoning is still a killer. You should have zero ammonia at all times.
What size is the tank, and what filter are you using?
Test strips are very innaccurate and can't be relied on at all. Neither can getting your tests done by a shop.
Shaking the nitrate #2 bottle isn't enough. This reagent precipitates out on the bottom of the bottle so you need to bang it hard on the table (or whatever) before you start shaking it. You need to do this every time.
:)
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I'd be slightly alarmed by the very high nitrate reading on the test-strip, in the sense that, using both liquid-based and paper-based test strips, I find the nitrate and nitrite readings very accurate on the strips, and tend to believe the nitrate one over the liquid-based testing kit - clearly, my arm isn't strong enough to do sufficient shaking required of the liquid-based test! For that reason, I'd definitely repeat that test, with plenty of shaking and banging, to try to get a more accurate reading. [I've never used a paper-based ammonia test, so can't comment on that.]
I'd also check your tap water rates, just to see what nitrate is coming out at - is it similar?
The best way to keep ammonia and nitrite at 0, and nitrates low, is frequent and larger water changes.
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Shaking the nitrate #2 bottle isn't enough. This reagent precipitates out on the bottom of the bottle so you need to bang it hard on the table (or whatever) before you start shaking it. You need to do this every time. :)
I noticed this as I had an issue squeezing solution 2 from the bottle, I had to shake the crap out of the bottle before I was happy.
Rosaleen the fact that you have ammonia showing in your test means there's something very amiss in a cycled tank. Can you account for every fish or have you cleaned the filter recently? If you over do it you can remove (inadvertently) some of the beneficial bacteria.
The more you tell us the more we can help.
If you've got ammonia in the water you need to do a water change to bring it to zero and then keep testing until you get a stable zero result for ammonia. (check nitrites too)
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The best way to keep ammonia and nitrite at 0, and nitrates low, is frequent and larger water changes.
The best way to keep ammonia and nitrite at zero is to have a filter with a fast enough flow rate, and enough media, for the bioload on the tank. With a suitable filter there should never be measurable ammonia or nitrite.
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With a suitable filter there should never be measurable ammonia or nitrite.
Very true, I wouldn't expect to find either in my established tanks. Rosaleen is a pretty new fish keeper so she's still learning her way and everybody expects hiccups. We just need to figure out exactly what caused her hiccup :)
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With a suitable filter there should never be measurable ammonia or nitrite.
Very true, I wouldn't expect to find either in my established tanks. Rosaleen is a pretty new fish keeper so she's still learning her way and everybody expects hiccups. We just need to figure out exactly what caused her hiccup :)
The ammonia, probably. That's why we need to know details of her filter. :)
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...
Looking through the the records I kept my parameters have been roughly the same since at least 1914 (and that includes having a new test kit 2015) ...
:yikes: You've been keeping fish for 102 years?!?! :rotfl: ;)
As others have said, if your Ammonia is anything other than 0, that's a problem that needs addressing.
However, with a tank that's been running for 2 years or so, it may simply be a matter of you over-cleaning and inadvertantly removing some of your denitrifying bacteria.
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As others have said, if your Ammonia is anything other than 0, that's a problem that needs addressing.
However, with a tank that's been running for 2 years or so, it may simply be a matter of you over-cleaning and inadvertantly removing some of your denitrifying bacteria.
Indeed. Are you cleaning your filter sponges in tank water (as you should) or are you cleaning them in tap water (which contains chlorine and will kill your denitrifying bacteria)?
Are you using a dechlorinator in your water change water?
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Another possibility is changing the media. Manufacturers would have us change it every few months but that is not necessary with the exception of filter wool/floss which gets clogged quickly, and isn't a very good biomedium anyway.
There is another line of thought - some people have great difficulty distinguishing between the 0 and 0.25 colours with the API tester and probably other brands too. I know the shop's test strip gave 1.0 ammonia, but which is the real level, 0.25 or 1.0?
Rosaleen, could you ask someone else to perform an ammonia test using your tester, and particularly get them to read the result?
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Hello to, well everybody!
Slightly overwhelmed by all the queries I'll try and answer a few at a time if that Ok
Firstly Sue re nitrate testing I always do the appropriate shakings and use a timer to make sure i do them correctly and wait the five min.
I have had high nitrate before as I said ybut not now and the fish weren't dying off then. I'm not convinced with the strip. I I will do an API test later today.
I did buy a JBL easy test when I was at the MA but don't know which letters mean what, if you see what I mean so haven't used it yet.
Will answer more queries later, sorry, busy morning
Rosie
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Just wanted to add if anyone uses the JBL strips tests and can tell me how to decipher them I'd be VERY grateful
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TH = Total Hardness, what we would refer to as GH, or general hardness
CH = Carbonate Hardness, what we refer to as KH
pH = how acid or alkaline your water is. 7 is neutral, less than 7 acidic, more than 7 alkaline
NO2 = Nitrite level
NO3 = Nitrate level
Cl2 = Chlorine level
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Just wanted to add if anyone uses the JBL strips tests and can tell me how to decipher them I'd be VERY grateful
I found a helpful video demonstration on youtube. The music is a wee bit annoying and the guy is a bit clumsy but you get a good demo on using the chart and paying attention to the correct wait times before checking the parameters
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You'll notice that the strips don't include ammonia. That level is the one that is causing most comments. I think you can get strips that test for ammonia separately.
The lack of ammonia is one of the major criticisms of strips.
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You'll notice that the strips don't include ammonia. That level is the one that is causing most comments. I think you can get strips that test for ammonia separately.
The lack of ammonia is one of the major criticisms of strips.
Incredible that it is overlooked, isn't it? :isay:
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I think there is some technical reason they can't put it on the strip with the other tests but I've no idea what that reason is.
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I'm trying to answer many points and questions so bear with me
I've had a tank since 2010 at least, (On sue's advice at that time I got a Thames water quality report which states when I downloaded it)
The water parameters have always been roughly what they are now. I've never lost fish on this kind of scale before. Many lived for a number of years.ie approx. 3/4 years. Not wonderful but not bad either.
Currently after testing the tap water myself for comparison with the tank water
The tap ammonia is just under O .25. Should that read ....>25 ?
The tap pH 7.8
Tap nitrate 40 -80
Did the API liquid test today........
PH 8,2 nitrate 40-80 (it's gone up a little to what it was, possibly cos I kept feeding as though I had more fish. I m correcting this now ) nitrite O, ammonia just under O .25.
When the MA did their strip test they quoted, (and I know cos I wrote it down),
100 for ammonia .
PH7.2 - 8
Nitrate 50-100
Paddy thanks for the link with the YouTube I will have a look at it
Colin B thanks a lot for the translation
Sue re the API ammonia reading, I totally agree it's is difficult to read accurately. can't think of anyone else to ask
However what I did do in March after getting the first cories from MA was test THEIR water which had the fish in.
Don't know if the half hour journey home added to the ammonia content due to the fish waste , but MAs ammonia was higher than mine, The MA water was definitely greener than mine.
I'll respond to other points on my next post.
Thanks again for all your help.
Rosie
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Just wanted to add if anyone uses the JBL strips tests and can tell me how to decipher them I'd be VERY grateful
Hi Rosie,
I’ve got the JBL test strips; the main issue is that each test has its own column of possible results, except for GH which has a horizontal ‘pattern’ of 4 boxes.
1. Hold ‘tube’ with, from left to right, tests in this order:
NO3 – nitrate; NO2 – nitrite; GH – general hardness; KH – carbonate hardness; PH - acidity or alkalinity; Cl2 - chlorine [thanks, Colin]
NO3 – 1st column of boxes; NO2 – 2nd column; GH – 3rd-6th columns (but these are read as a horizontal set of 4), KH – 7th column, PH – 8th column; Cl2 – 9th column.
2. Take a container/test tube of water out of the tank.
3. Dip a strip in it for 2-3 seconds.
4. Lightly shake strip to remove excess drips.
5. Place strip in front of tube on table, making sure it aligns up correctly – the long bit with no boxes on it should be on the right. [see my pic]
6. The Cl2 test (extreme right) should be read immediately – if its colour is the same as the bottom one of the 4 in that column (ie bright yellow), then it’s fine, but if it’s one of the other 3 colours above, you’ve got chlorine in your water.
7. After a minute has passed, you can then decipher the other readings – best to do this without leaving it any longer, as the results tend to darken up and change if you leave it for too long (as I’ve noticed when I see them lying in the rubbish bin). Going from left to right, have a look to see which colour on your test strip matches which colour in the column of colours above (the GH one is different as it’s a set of 4 colours):
*NO3 (1st column) – if colour on your test strip is same as one of the bottom 3 in the column (25ppm or under), that’s good; the darker the colour, the more nitrates you have as indicated by the numbers to the left of the column ie the number beside the box colour most resembling that on your test strip.
*NO2 (2nd column) – if colour on your test strip is same as bottom one (0ppm – completely white), that’s good; anything darker than that means that you have nitrites and the reading is as indicated by the numbers to the right of the column ie the number beside the box colour most resembling that on your test strip.
*GH (3rd-6th columns) – the next 4 colours on your test strip should come out as some combination of purple and blue or even all purple or all blue – work out how many of each and see which ‘pattern’ (combo of colours) it resembles, and the result is the number to the left of that set of 4.
*KH (7th column) – the next colour on the test strip (3rd from right) should be some shade of green or dark blue – work out which in the column it resembles, and the result is the number to the left of the column.
*PH (8th column) – the next colour on the test strip (2nd from right) is the PH – work out which colour in the column it resembles, and the result is the number to the right of the column.
*Cl2 (9th column, most extreme right) – reading which you’ll have done first.
You’ll soon get used to this, and, once your tank is settled, you should hopefully get regular readings of - marginally pink; white; set of 4 boxes; another colour; another colour; yellow – which you’ll come to learn of as normal and soon recognise if something looks amiss/unusual on a particular testing day. Hope that very detailed, step-by-step instruction helps but feel free to ask further questions.
:fishy1:
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Apologies re my last two posts, didn't realise there was a page 2 Duuhhhhh
I've deliberately removed your test posts now in my capacity as 'moderator', so no worries. :)
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Firstly thanks fcmf for removing my two posts and more importantly a big thank you for the extremely detailed instructions
I'll get it printed to keep and use.
OK the dreaded ammonia which was pinpointed as a likely cause ..........
Your post Sue re the difficulty reading API charts led me to getting an updated Thames quality report Dec 2014
IF I'm reading the right one ...Ammonium NH4 .. It reads
Min <0.030. Mean 0.05. Max 0.14
Though I've manually tested tap water in the past I have not done it side by side with the tank water.
So carefully pre rinsing one test tube, pipette and cap in tap water and the other set in tank water I did a comparison....
The look exactly the same! No one could have been more surprised than me, not to mention relieved. :cheers:
So now I'll start to look at people's other posts and ideas to try and track the down the problem
Rosaleen
Ps one minor ammonia point. At the MA when they did the strip test and I noted their readings I was definately told ammonia was 100 :yikes: (I remember asking and being horrified by the reply ) but if strip tests don't do ammonia I don't understand where that figure comes from. Can't find the post on here to personally acknowledge what someone said about not trusting strip tests or the shops that do the tests. So apologies for that.
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Firstly thanks fcmf for removing my two posts and more importantly a big thank you for the extremely detailed instructions
You're welcome.
Ps one minor ammonia point. At the MA when they did the strip test and I noted their readings I was definately told ammonia was 100 :yikes: (I remember asking and being horrified by the reply ) but if strip tests don't do ammonia I don't understand where that figure comes from. Can't find the post on here to personally acknowledge what someone said about not trusting strip tests or the shops that do the tests. So apologies for that.
API and Tetra both make ammonia test strips but they're separate and not contained in the 5-in-1 or 6-in-1 test strips. It's very possible that your LFS did the test using one of those two strips.
The liquid-based test kits tend to have a better reputation generally, although I think there's a benefit of using both to cross-check against one another. Personally, I find nitrate and nitrite results accurate on the paper test strips but find the GH and KH tend to read as higher than they ought to and the PH slightly lower (when compared with water company's results and liquid-based kits but I find the liquid-based kits tend to produce a higher PH than they ought to). That's not to say you'd have the same experience with them, though. I'd advise not relying solely on the test strips given that the liquid-based ones have a better reputation, but they are very convenient to use (once you get used to them).
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Thanks fcmf for your last info. It's all very helpful. I had decided to get the strip tests to cross reference my liquid tests.
More answers now to the questions which were asked about the problem of my fish dying off.
My tank is 89 litres minus what the plants, bog wood and gravel take up. I have an aqua 1050 which the manufacturers say is for "up to 200/300litre tanks" Every 10 days I do a water change of 25/26 litres so approx one third. (I can imagine some hands going up in horror that I don't do a water change every 7 days) and yes I use Aqua safe.
I think I've said it before in detail but can't get to page I of the posts to verify, I clean the filter every 12-14 weeks with the old tank water immediately after a water change.
The only thing I'm knowingly guilty of is perhaps slight over feeding which I then compensate for in a panic by having a non feeding day approx every 10 days.
I have top, middle and bottom feeders. I had started to use the cubes a lot more, from approx every five days to usually every second or third day. I think it's because I looked in detail at their dietary requirements and felt the fish flakes, veg tablets weekly courgette 2/ 3 times weekly catfish pellet for the Bristlenose and occasional algae wafer weren't covering their needs. I used to give sinking pellets which I ground down but when I renewed the food stock because I'd had it for quite some time I didn't get any new sinking pellets.
Other people's feedback on their preferences on food would be appreciated.
Rosaleen
I'll put my next lot of Aqua balls in the filter as advised. So far there have been no further deaths and no signs of ill health.
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You seem to be doing everything right and taking really good care of your fish. I wouldn't do such a big water change as it can change water parameters too quickly, perhaps 20% max. and every 10days is fine as long as the Nitrate doesn't build up more than 20ppm between water changes.
Let's hope the episode is over.
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Thanks ColinB for the advice on the water changes percentage and nitrate info.
If I am doing everything right it is ONLY because of all the help and support I've had from this forum especially when I first started as a total beginner years ago, and most especially from Sue.
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Belated thanks to fcmf and the others, especially for the comparisons between liquid and strip tests. All of your comments I have taken on board and I now alternate between strip and liquid at water changes, which I've also reduced to 20 litres.
The tank is still stabilised and am now thinking of introducing a small group of hardy fish, to test this stabilisation. But I can't think which might be best; any ideas that people have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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Belated thanks to fcmf and the others, especially for the comparisons between liquid and strip tests. All of your comments I have taken on board and I now alternate between strip and liquid at water changes, which I've also reduced to 20 litres.
The tank is still stabilised and am now thinking of introducing a small group of hardy fish, to test this stabilisation. But I can't think which might be best; any ideas that people have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Excellent news that your tank has stabilised, rosaleen 8)
How long has your tank been established? Since you have neons and harlequins already, I would suggest (since I'm biased) that you might be best to boost your shoal numbers of these two species (or even just one shoal). It will make the fish happier in their larger numbers and they are both hardy species for established tanks.
Just my tuppence. :)
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There's a thread somewhere on here listing fish suitable for hard water like yours Rosie. I'll try and find it for you.
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This link was posted in the thread that Sue has mentioned. Being in an area that also has hard water I saved the link for future reference. ;D
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwhardness.htm
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Thankee Donna
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Thanks for all your replies :wave:
. Re length of time my tank has been stabilised,it's a good job you asked me Paddyc, as when I checked my dates it's really only about 4 weeks. ::)So I think I need to wait a bit longer.
First, of all, I will check the hard water website that's been recommended by Fiona and Littlefish before making any decisions about which fish to get.
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Ah yes, that's a good thing then. Sometimes it's not an answer you need, just someone else to ask a question you haven't already asked yourself :cheers: