Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: jesnon on January 21, 2013, 05:19:15 PM
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OK! I thought I'd post a new thread for my 'cycling story' and readings!
I set up my 23l Fluval Edge properly yesterday and added the first dose of 'nutrafin cycle' since a bottle came with my tank just to see what happens! My tank has a mixed colour gravel, two small pieces of bogwood and two small rocks and four plastic plants.
Eventually I'm planning to get a larger piece of bogwood (though only small given the size of my tank) with some java fern and one small moss ball, and some cherry red shrimp and probably 6 endlers!
So it's been running for around a day now and I've dosed with 2.2ml ammonia.
Day 1:
Temp= 30*c
Ph normal = 7.5 / 7.6
Ammonia = 4ppm
Nitrite = 0ppm
Nitrate = somewhere between 5ppm - 20ppm
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Ok, some interesting things going on with my Ph! It looked to me to have gone to almost 8 at standing.. is that actually possible!?
Day 2:
Ph 7.8 - 8
Temp 30
Ammonia 2ppm
I dosed the last of my nutrafin cycle too
Day 3
Temp 30
Ammonia 2ppm
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Yes it is quite possible.
Did you test the pH of your tapwater after standing 24 hours, I've forgotten :-[
The gravel could affect pH if it's made from limestone or coral
Ammonia dissolved in water does make the pH higher.
The pH will fluctuate quite a bit during a fishless cycle. The ammonia you add will push the pH up, then the nitrite and nitrate will push it down once they start to build up. You don't need to worry about pH during cycling so long as you check it every so often to make sure it doesn't drop below 6.5. If a cycle appears to get stuck, low pH is usually the cause.
You can eliminate the gravel by putting some in a tub of water, letting it stand a week and testing it. Have a tub of plain water standing alongside it as a control.
That reminds me, we had a thread on the old forum comparing different substrates for any alteration of pH and hardness. I think I saved all the data somewhere before the old forum disappeared..........
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Ahh sorry I should have said that Ph was my normal tapwater after standing rather than my tank water, I haven't actually checked that yet (I probably should!). I haven't measured anything except ammonia in my tank since I started - should I be measuring anything else at this stage? I'm happy ammonia has got down to 2 so far, hopefully it'll go down a little more the rest of the week!
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Aha, so it's your tapwater that went up from 7.5/7.6 to 7.8 after standing 24 hours!
It's quite common. Mine goes up from 7.4 to 7.6. A lot of water companies pump carbon dioxide into the water supply. It makes the water acidic, which helps reduce limescale build up in the mains pipes. When you leave a glass of water to stand, it's like leaving a glass of lemonade out overnight - the carbon dioxide gasses out. The acidic effect of the carbon dioxide is lost so the pH rises a bit.
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Ahh thanks for the explanation Sue - that makes sense! Would that Ph be problematic for any of the suggested fish and shrimp or should it be OK?
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If you are still thinking of endlers, it's not a problem. They like hard alkaline water.
Which shrimps were you thinking of, cherry or amano (aka japonicas)? They are both fine at your pH.
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That's good then :-) I think cherry red for my tank size :-) that's a relief!
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Day 4:
Temperature 30*c
Ph of actual tank = seems to be up to 8!
Ammonia 2ppm
No movement on my ammonia yet! My siphon still hasn't arrived either so I'm yet to rearrange my tank and retrieve the tangled up algae magnet! I'm guessing the best time to add my plants (java fern and moss ball) is going to be when eventually down the line I need to do a large water change before I get my fish?
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That's when I'd say to add the plants though others may disagree :D My reason is that once you have live plants you need to have the light on for part of the day and this, coupled with the ammonia you have in your tank, will encourage algae to grow. You may well get algae anyway (most commonly brown diatoms) but there would be more if the lights were on.
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That does sound like it makes sense! I don't want to mess around with my tank too much whilst it's cycling apart from to sort out the tangle so I can use my magnet again ha. I filter wool I ordered arrived the other day too... my filter's currently got two lots of biomax as I replaced the carbon with an extra biomax and one of the fluval sponge... should I add in the wool or would that be unneccesary? I've also got a pre-filter to put onto the intake tube at some stage...
The tank has been looking really clear so far, I test the lights every day just to make sure they're OK though as everyday I get some condensation under the hood and on the lights so I'm a little paranoid they might get damaged unless I wipe them down every day as I've heard that's happened to a few other people with these tanks. My heater needs moving as well as it seems to have dislodged slightly. I'm just wondering as well with the condensation - is this a normal thing or just something with these tanks?
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Condensation is normal - don't worry about it.
Be aware, however, that the water level might drop slightly due to evaporation and it's only pure water that evaporates leaving the dissolved minerals behind. If you top-up the evaporation loss with conditioned tap water then over time your water hardness will increase. It's a sort of 'Dead Sea' effect. It's best to have some Reverse Osmosis water (i.e. pure H2O) to top-up evaporation loss. My local Maidenhead Aquatics sells it for 70p for 5 litres - supply your own container. It'll last ages in with your tank.
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Ahh I didn't know that thank you :-)
Day 5 and 6 both still 2ppm
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It's just a waiting game now. I know you added the nutrafin cycle but assuming that had no live bacteria in it, the source of filter bacteria is the water supply. The chlorine or chloramine that your water company adds kills virtually all of them and getting the few survivors going is the long part. They split into 2 roughly once in 24 hours, so for each survivor they multiply as: day 1 - 1 bacterium; day 2 - 2 bacteria; day 3 - 4 bacteria; day 4 - 8 bacteria; day 5 - 32 bacteria and so on. As you can see, a slow start getting faster and faster.
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That makes sense! My pump finally arrived today so I was able to retrieve my algae magnet and sort out the tank a little. My water has gone a little brown from my bogwood despite best efforts but in the tank itself it doesn't look too brown luckily!
Today the ammonia is potentially 1ppm, or edging that way from 2ppm - it seems much lighter than the last few days... so fingers crossed some of my little bacteria are growing!
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Day.... 11??
Ammonia has been at 1ppm since the 28th now! Eek!
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Do you have a nitrite reading?
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Ahh I completely forgot to start testing for nitrite!
Day 12:
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite between 2ppm and 5ppm... literally can't tell the difference between those colours on the chart! These API test kits are making me a little paranoid about my colour vision ha
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The main thing is the nitrite reading is above zero. That shows that you have some ammonia eating bacteria growing, as they are the things that make the nitrite. The actual amount is not too important, what you need to know is zero or not zero.
I notice that your ammonia seems to be staying at 1 - are you topping it up to that level or is it 'stuck' at that level?
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It just seems to be 'stuck' there for whatever reason :/ I was quite surprised since the level decreased really rapidly at first, but since the 28th it just seems to have got stuck there and not much seems to be happening! I haven't actually dosed any more ammonia since the first lot =/
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A couple of suggestions.
Check the pH of the tank water.
Add enough ammonia to take the reading to 2.0
If the pH has dropped, report back :)
After you add a bit more ammonia, see if it drops over the next day or so or if gets stuck at 2.
It is possible for a sudden drop in pH to stall the cycle, and if it's not that sometimes people have found that doing a water change can get a 'stuck' cycle going again.
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Thanks Sue! The Ph in the tank is now up to 8.2 so I've ruled out the Ph crash. I've dosed a bit more ammonia, but before it was looking to still be stuck somewhere between 1 and 0.5ppm
So before dosing:
Day 13
Temp 30*c
Ammonia 1ppm
Ph 8.2
I'm just waiting for the ammonia to mix to see if it's taken it up to 2, or if I need more ammonia. Fingers crossed something happens soon!
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Ok so Day 13 after dosing the ammonia I had:
Ph 8.2
Ammonia 2ppm
Day 14:
Temp 30*
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
I'm hoping it doesn't end up stuck there again!
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If your ammonia is dropping, even if it gets stuck at 1.0, don't worry for now. If it stays at 1 for a couple of days, treat it as though it was zero - add more ammonia every time it gets down to 1 and wait until nitrite drops to zero. Hopefully, by the time that happens, the ammonia reading will be dropping to zero too.
Don't forget about fluorescent lights/energy saving bulbs making the liquid in the tube look greener than it really is. Does tapwater show the zero colour?
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Thanks Sue =) I think it showed at 0 when I did my tap water.
Day 15:
30*c
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
If it's still at 1 tomorrow I'll add more ammonia =)
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Day 16:
Ammonia was still at 1ppm so I dosed back up to 2ppm again!
16 17:
30*c
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
If it's still at 1ppm again tomorrow I guess I'll dose some more ammonia!
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Day 17:
Exciting things are happening!
30*c
Ammonia 0.5ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
I've dosed what should now be back to 5ppm but I need to wait until it's mixed to make sure that's definitely right!
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Day 18:
am
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
pm
Ammonia 0.5ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
Just dosed back to 5ppm
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Day 19:
am test
Ammonia: 0ppm! I'm a little worried it's because I didn't double check how much I'd dosed of ammonia, but I used the same measurements I usually do so assumed it was fine! I've dosed again now so I'll check it's definitely the right amount when it's mixed!
Nitrite is still off the scale / 5ppm... I wish something would happen with that! Very happy with my ammonia eating bacteria though ha
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I would have a look at the NitrAte to see if there is any additional movement.
Last time you reported the reading was Jan 21st as somewhere between 5 and 20 ppm. If the NitrIte is off the scale then looking at the NitrAte can help your sanity.
In my own fishless cycle last year, the NitrAte went too far and caused a pH crash halting the whole process (until Sue kindly helped me out getting it going again).
Worth a shot, if you see movement in the NitrAte, at least you know stuff is working.
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Jesnon, there is now evidence coming out that a high nitrite level can inibit the growth of the nitrite eating bacteria. You could try doing a water change (practice for when you have fish ;D ) to get the nitrite down low, then at your usual dosing time add some ammonia - and check the reading after 20 mins-ish to see how much you've added.
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Ooh ok so I should start testing my nitrate too and do a water change to try and bring my nitrite down? how much should I change roughly?
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Testing nitrAte will show if there are any nitrite eaters there to make it form nitrite, but don't forget to subratct the amount in your tapwater.
If your nitrite is showing the highest colour the tester is capable of, try a 50% water change and test again 20 mins later. The 20 mins is only to make sure the old and new water have mixed thoroughly.
Your Edge is more or less the same size as my betta's tank (that's 25 litres). It is very easy to do a 50% water change without realising you've done that much ;D By the time I've been over all the sand with the tube, half the water has gone. Just a warning to keep your eye on how much you are taking out once you have fish ;D
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Day 19
PM Test pre water change:
Ammonia 0.5ppm
Nitrate somewhere between 5ppm - 20ppm... (a very pale browny orange) so exactly the same as my tap water :(
I've just done a water change... I know what you mean now Sue! My siphon has a kink in the tube but I've figured out that squeezing where the kink is makes it run faster now and managed to get it to start without having to suck the tube this time... I had a bucket full of water in no time! I did a bit of rearranging too, not sure if I like it better now or not, though I'm happy at least that my heater is a little more disguised.
Stupid question... but how do you all double check your temperature? Do you just have two different thermometers? I have the fluval one and I just want to make sure it's actually reading correctly and I hear you're supposed to double check it when you have fish occasionally too!
Day 19 PM post-water change:
I just tested my water post water change and now I'm even more confused...! Nitrite is still off the scale :( At least I'm assuming so since the colour is nothing like any of those on the chart. It's almost a magenta rather than any of the lilacy purples :o Does this mean I need to do a whole new water change? Maybe I didn't change enough :-\
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In good news my tank is now nice and clear again, rather than browny from the tanins in my bogwood! In odd news my bogwood looks a bit like it's somehow 'dusty'!? If anyone has any suggestions for tank rearrangements let me know - I still have a moss ball and javafern attached to bogwood to go in eventually too... maybe I was a little optimistic with my small tank!
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It's a bit odd that your NitrAte isn't moving, but if you have done a large water change and your NitIte is still off the scale (which it seems to be), I would be inclined to do another 50% to try and get it down. See what Sue says about that before doing anything, but I'm wondering if the NitrIte colony isn't growing because there's too much in the water? Sue?
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It's all a bit odd really! I'm getting so impatient now!
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Since your nitrite is so high, empty as much water as you can and refil with nice nitrite-free tapwater (dechlorinated and warmed!). Then wait till your usual time and add enough ammonia to give a reading of 2.
Nitrite gets very high because of the moleclular weights of ammonia and nitrite. Nitrite is 2.7 times heavier than ammonia; 1 ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7 ppm nitrite, so once the ammonia eaters start to grow, the nitrite level goes up very quickly.
The nitrite eaters can't start to grow until the ammonia eaters have made some nitrite, and as a rough guide, the nitrite eaters take twice as long to grow as the ammonia eaters did. Adding smaller amounts of ammonia until the nitrite eaters grow helps keep the nitrite level under control. Once the nitrite level is dropping to zero, you can start adding more ammonia till you are up to 5ppm doses.
The dusty look of the bogwood could be diatoms. They are common in cycling tanks and becasue they are brown like the wood they won't stand out like they would on a white stone. Diatoms grow because of the amonia in the water. Once the tank is cycled they should go away. They can also be wiped off.
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Thanks again Sue! I'll make sure to do a massive water change later (I guess it's all good practice!). It sounds like I'm in for a long wait with my nitrite eating bacteria :-( still it'll be worth it in the end to have nice healthy fish and shrimp!
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Very odd things going on!
Pre water change
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite and nitrate were the same as yesterday and I dosed ammonia again before seeing this
Post water change
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite about 5ppm.. is that still too high? I'm a shift worker so off to work now but if it is i can do another water change tonight. Since I dosed ammonia earlier shall i leave it until tomorrow to dose to 2ppm?
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Since there are no fish to get harmed, it doesn't matter exactly when you do the water changes. Do the water change whenever is convenient, but wait till the 'ammonia adding' time to add more ammonia. The bacteria won't starve in a few hours.
The main reason I say to add the ammonia at the time you've chosen is so that you don't end up adding to much in any one day by accident :)
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I'm so confused =(
I did another large water change but my nitrite is still really high...
Temp 30*c
Nitrite 5ppm
Nitrate 40ppm
Ammonia 2ppm (dosed after water change)
Ph 8.2
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Think about how much ammonia you have added over the last few days whilst getting the cycle up and running; Now multiply by 2.7 and that's how much nitrite you've got in your tank.
Say 12 lots of ammonia at 5mg a time; 135mg of nitrite. In order to get that below 5ppm on the test chart you would need to do about 6 50% changes. You just have to keep switching it out until the nitrite falls to an acceptable, ie measurable, amount. If your nitrite is too high, you haven't changed enough water.
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Eek that is a lot of water changes! How often should I be doing them / leaving in between?
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You could try removing as much water as you can from the tank, leaving just what's in the gravel. That should get rid of most of the nitrite.
Alternatively, try putting just 1ml of tankwater in the test tube, top up to the line with tapwater and test it. If it's still off the top, try again with 0.5ml tankwater. And so on. That'll give you an indication of how much water you need to change to get the nitrite down.
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OK! I just did a HUUUGE water change as you guys suggested and now:
Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrite = 0.25
Phew.
So come tomorrow should I just dose up to 2ppm of ammonia?
My fake plants are driving me insane! Every time I've done a water change they just fall over and are such a faff to prop back up where I want them to go!
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Yes, just dose 2ppm. Keep an eye on the nitrite and do a water change as sooon as it reaches the highest colour - that should keep it under control. Once you find it's dropping to below 1 by itself, start slowly increasing the amount of ammonia you add till you get to 4 or 5ppm. Then it's just wait till both drop to zero within 12 hours of adding the ammonia, and do it every day for a week. It is not unknown for one or the other to show up again for a couple of days; if you wait for a week of double zeros, you won't have added fish before a possible blip.
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Phew this cycling lark is more complicated than I thought! Ha :)
Day 22 am:
Temp 30*c
Nitrate 5ppm - 20ppm (confused how it's gone back down again, I guess after the water change!)
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25 - 0.5ppm
Dosed back to 2ppm of ammonia. I'll test again this evening when I finish work!
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Day 22 pm:
Temp 30*c
Nitrate between 40ppm and 80ppm
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite was off the scale again... so just done another massive water change.
*sigh*
My plants are driving me insane! Ended up swearing at the tank earlier because they just kept toppling over every time I put them where I wanted them to go... then when I filled up the tank they fell over again! Grr!
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Based on those readings for today (am + pm) it looks like the bacteria are well and truly working. Looks like you are very close now. Just a bit more patience and you'll be there.
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I agree. The ammonia eaters are almost there, it's just the nitrite eaters you need to wait for. You are well into stage 2.
Think of it this way:
Stage 1 - high ammonia and no nitrite = no bacteria at all
Stage 2 - ammonia dissappeaing fast and high nitrite = ammonia eaters present but no nitrite eaters
Stage 3 - ammonia and nitrite disappearing fast = ammonia and nitrite eaters present, just waiting till there are enough of them
Stage 4 - zero ammonia and nitrite within 12 hours after adding ammonia (for a week) = cycle finished, you can get fish
The fact that your nitrate is going up so fast is a good sign. Remember I said about 1ppm being converted into 2.7ppm nitrite? That same 1ppm ammonia gets processed further into 3.6ppm nitrate.
If you are having problems with the plants, since you said they were fake you can take them out for now. I remove problem decor during a water change, such as the wood in my 125 litre. It is tall and thin and falls over very easily - it goes in a bucket right at the start.
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Ooh thanks guys, it's reassuring to know there's not too much cycling left to go! And Sue I think I might just remove them as you suggested until I get my fish, they're definitely being such a pain at the minute! I think it's even more annoying because of the small hole in the tank for readjusting things, so it's a little more fiddling than more traditional tanks to sort everything out... so when they just fall over straight the way it's very frustrating! I'm also considering just ditching the largest fake plant - it's always been slightly too tall for my tank and it just seems to constantly be falling over / getting in the way (I managed to trap it between my algae magnet the other day and uproot it after all my efforts to put it back where I wanted it!). My bogwood on the other hand and little rocks are perfect - I love how they look and they haven't been problematic during any water changes. I guess it's because they're a bit heavier and have more evenly distributed weight. I love how crystal clear my water is now since I've been doing such massive water changes. Hopefully the tanins are all gone now!
Day 23 am:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.5ppm
Nitrate 20ppm
Dosed back to 2ppm
Come on nitrite eaters! You can do it! Haha
My family are visiting next weekend, is it far too optimistic to hope for it to have finished cycling by then!?
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My family are visiting next weekend, is it far too optimistic to hope for it to have finished cycling by then!?
Just tell them you're keeping bacteria! ;D
On a less flippant note.... some fish like a slight tannin effect in the tank. Tetras (for instance) come from very stained water because of all the leaf-litter and decaying wood in their almost stagnant Amazonian backwaters.
If you're thinking of keeping shrimp in there then they 'like' some decaying leaves in their tank (well... your tank) to rootle around in and the leaf decay provides food of a sort. There's a good cup of coffee's worth of reading on this subject here: http://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/ (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/)
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Haha they are quite aware of how slow the process is after my attempts to explain it all, though I do think they'll be surprised there's still no fish!
Ooh I'll definitely have a read of that since I want some shrimp!
Day 23 pm:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite off the scale again
Nitrate between 20ppm and 40ppm
So I did yet another massive water change! My boyfriend thinks I'm mad!
However after all my complaints about the plants they behaved yesterday, especially the one I was going to bin... it obviously heard my threats! ;)
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My boyfriend thinks I'm mad!
However after all my complaints about the plants they behaved yesterday, especially the one I was going to bin... it obviously heard my threats! ;)
Just wait 'till you get livestock in there and see how much you talk to them then - your boyfriend will be on the phone to the 'men-in-white-coats'. ;D
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Haha I can already imagine it... especially when I get shrimp considering in my head I already call them 'little shrimpies' ;D
Day 24 am:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.5ppm
Nitrate between 5ppm and 20ppm (tapwater)
Dosed 2ppm ammonia
My nitrite doesn't seem to be doing much still without my help yet :( I'm at work for 24 hours now which is a bit of a pain... I'm hoping my boyfriend will take pity and test the parameters for me!
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Unfortunately he didn't do any water testing for me!
Day 25 pm:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite off the scale
Nitrate somewhere between 40ppm and 80ppm
My nitrite just doesn't seem to be doing anything :( It doesn't seem to be going down at all on its own... I'm getting fed up of water changes now!
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Hang in there. It was the same for me last Summer when I got my first tank - the first six months are very frustrating and it's not surprising that so many people give up in their first year of fish keeping. All I can say is that now I get so much pleasure out of my tank that it was all worthwhile. All it takes is about ½ - 1 hour a week of maintenance on a Friday morning, and I enjoy doing that.
Keep posting. The good people here will guide you through your troubles.
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Thanks Colin :) Yeah I think it'll definitely be worth it in the end, I just need to be more patient!
Silly question but how do people put water back into their tanks after a water change? I've just been using my collinder like I did when I first filled the tank, but it seems quite a slow process!
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I think the answer would be.... "it depends". I use a pyrex pint jug to tip water into the filter compartment at the back of my tank, but my water change is about 7½ litres so it takes very little time. If I had a 200 litre tank and was doing, say, a 30 litre change then I would want something quicker. If the tank is shallow then care has to be taken not to disturb the gravel, or if access is limited (as in your case) then you might want to siphon the water in if you have a higher point to put the bucket of new water.
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I use a bucket and a plastic jug to ladle the water in, pouring the last inch straight from the bucket. I do have to be careful not to pour the water in too fast or I end up with bare glass on the bottom and a pile of sand round the edges.
I think with the Edge with its small hole I'd always use the bucket and jug method. The siphon method Colin mentioned is an option if you have somewhere slightly higher than the tank to stand the bucket on.
Colin - I do about 30 litres in my 125 litre tank, 15 litres in my 50 litre and 10 litres in the 25 litre tank every week using the bucket-and-jug method. It does take a while to refil. But if I poured it straight from the bucket there's a very good chance I'd miss the tank, and siphoning isn't an option for the 125 litre as I couldn't lift the bucket high enough. I have come across someone who puts a plank across the top of the tank and puts the bucket on that while siphoning, but I'd have to climb onto a chair to do that - not a good idea for someone who is as clumsy as me :-[ .
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That's the problem I was having - if I pour too fast all my gravel ends up everywhere or my plants end up dislodged and my pre-filter has even fallen off on a few occasions!
I'm a little concerned about my cycle currently..
I dosed ammonia last night and this am my readings were:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite off the scale
Nitrate between 40ppm - 80ppm
I just don't understand how my nitrite isn't going down at all on its own. Should I really have to be doing 90% water changes on a daily basis in a fishless cycle!? I've gotten through a whole bottle of dechlorinator! It just seems like it should be doing more on its own by now =( I haven't done a water change yet today because I've been at work all day and wanted to clarify I wasn't doing something drastically wrong somewhere!
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Jesnon, the first thing I have to confess is that I've never actually done a fishless cycle. I got my first tank back in the mid 1990s after I had fish. Strictly speaking I didn't have fish, my sons did - they came home from the fair with four goldfish they'd won on the darts stall. The fish spent that night in a large mixing bowl and we had to go tank shopping next day. No choice but a fish-in cycle. Since then whenever I set up a new tank I just clone the media from an existing tank.
So everything I know about fishless cycle is theory. I'm going to have to set up my quarantine tank and cycle it just to see what happens in my case.
Back to your tank - yes, the nitrite stage does seem to be stuck. The nitrite eaters are the more tricky ones. They take longer to multiply that the ammonia eaters and they appear to be more delicate. There are loads of tales from people who used a bottled bacteria product about how the ammonia eaters grew very quickly but the nitrite eaters took forever, leading to speculation that the nitrite eaters don't survive well in a bottle; another example of how delicate they can be.
What happens to your nitrAte if you don't do a water change, does it stay the same or go up? If it goes up, that shows that you do have some nitrite eaters, if it stays the same it means you don't have any. Mybe don't do any water changes for a couple of days and see what happens to your nitrate.
One last question - do you know anyone who has a fish tank? If they would agree to let you have some of their media it would help enormously. Otherwise, I don't know what to suggest other than keep on going as you have been.
Dechlorinator - there are two products I know of that are very economical because they are very concentrated, but they aren't stocked by many shops so you have to buy on-line. They are Prime by Seachem and API Tap Water Conditioner. Both have disadvantages - Prime can give odd ammonia readings for 24 hours and the API one doesn't detoxify chlorine (which is necessary if you have chloramine in your water supple rater than chlorine). Or get a bottle of pond dechlorinator - but you would need a small syringe to measure out the dose.
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I'm quite confused with the readings too, as I have done a fishless cycle using the bottled bacteria starter supplied with my tank (Interpet Filter Start), along with the additional adding of diluted Ammonia of course.
I started that on March 4th 2012. It took only until March 12th to see a rise in NitrIte, with a rise in NitrAte at the same time. By the end of the same month, both Ammonia (5ppm) and the resulting NitrIte was being consumed within 12 hours. I did go on to make changes to the tank, which set me back until May, but that's beside the point. The fishless cycle isn't a black art, it has been for me one the easiest things to do.
So, I simply do not understand why you are having the problems you are.
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The only thing that occurs to me would be a complete lack of nitrite eating bacteria in the water supply. There is obviously a reasonable amount of ammonia eaters since nitrite started being made quite quickly. I'm reluctant to suggest bottled bacteria as the nitrite eaters are the one they have problems with - these don't take to being bottled as well as the ammonia eaters.
Jesnon, if you get really desperate and don't mind spending money on what might be a wild goose chase, have a look on Amazon for something called Dr Tim's One and Only. Make sure it's the freshwater one not the marine one. It's made in America and the Amazon seller is the only place I can find selling it in the UK. It's made by the company owned by Tim Hovanec, the chap who discovered which species of bacteria grow in our filters. It's the product with the best reputation, although even this doesn't work if it's been allowed to get too hot or too cold. It is supposed to be used with ammonium chloride rather than ammonia solution so you would need a bottle of that too, Dr Tim's make it. The instructions should be followed to the letter; I've read that it differs from the usual fishless cycling method.
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Ahh this is well and truly depressing :( I wish I knew what was going on or where I was going wrong! I haven't done a water change for a couple of days now
So Day 27 (it's nearly been a month now :'( ):
Ammonia 0ppm (dosed 2ppm earlier this morning)
Nitrite off the scale
Nitrate between 40 - 80ppm (is it just me or are these colours exactly the same!?)
So since my tapwater it somewhere between 5ppm and 20ppm of nitrate I guess that's at least a good sign that something is going on!?
Unfortunately I don't know anyone else with an aquarium that I can borrow some filter media from :( The only shops I know of in my area are Pets at Home and Maidenhead Acquatics so I'm sceptical they would let me have any of their media... I guess it's worth asking??
Another thing I was wondering.. I bought my API test kit online, is there any way there could be something wrong with my Nitrite tests? The only readings I've had before have been either 0 or 0.25 for my tapwater and off the scale... I've never seen anything in between!? If that's a possibility I'm tempted to invest in some testing papers. All my tests are in date as far as I can tell so I'm not really sure this is a possibility =/
Do you think I should just move on to a fish-in cycle instead?? I'm just not really sure what to do now :( It's been nearly a month already and I've been doing a lot of water changes already... Or perhaps I could add my plants now if they will help in any way?? I don'r really know... as you can tell I am getting pretty desperate now!!
I guess there's also the possibility that there's something wrong with the ammonia I'm using??
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Nitrate between 40 - 80ppm (is it just me or are these colours exactly the same!?)
You are not alone with that colour chart, some are very difficult to tell apart.
So since my tapwater it somewhere between 5ppm and 20ppm of nitrate I guess that's at least a good sign that something is going on!?
On the face of it yes, but the NitrAte should keep going up when you do not do any water change.
Unfortunately I don't know anyone else with an aquarium that I can borrow some filter media from :( The only shops I know of in my area are Pets at Home and Maidenhead Acquatics so I'm sceptical they would let me have any of their media... I guess it's worth asking??
Maidenhead would be the better bet as PAH are not a fish specialist, just a pet shop. The staff at my nearest Maidenhead (Standish, near Wigan) are very accommodating and very helpful. There is no harm asking yours if they have any available. Just be cautious when dealing with a commercial enterprise. They may try to sell you something you do not know anything about, so any suggestions should be researched first.
Another thing I was wondering.. I bought my API test kit online, is there any way there could be something wrong with my Nitrite tests? The only readings I've had before have been either 0 or 0.25 for my tapwater and off the scale... I've never seen anything in between!? If that's a possibility I'm tempted to invest in some testing papers. All my tests are in date as far as I can tell so I'm not really sure this is a possibility =/
The test strips have a bad reputation and are generally not recommended by more experienced fish-keepers. I've been trying to source the API ones myself to test them out but nobody near me will stock them. In the case of the liquid test, there is no harm buying a second test kit to satisfy yourself that there isn't a kit problem. If there is a difference in readings, you'll have an answer, but if not you won't loose money as the newer test kit can simply be put to on side until you use up the older one.
Do you think I should just move on to a fish-in cycle instead?? ... Or perhaps I could add my plants now if they will help in any way??
Given the issues with water testing, this would be a risk to your inhabitants, so I would not add fish or get plants.
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God, it's so frustrating! I did a fishless cycle and it took 6 weeks so I know what you are going through. We buy tanks to put fish in; We don't want a chemistry lab. But, and this a golden rule for cycling that I think it might be valuable for Sue to put in her instructions; BE PATIENT.
"There are two ways to cycle a tank – with fish and without. Both take several weeks to complete, typically between four and six weeks. Cycles have been known to be completed in less than four weeks, but this is rare. It has also been known to take longer than six weeks. It is difficult to give an exact time as there are so many variables. "
From your posts on this thread, you have been cycling for 4 weeks, so there are ONLY 2 weeks left!
Nitrate between 5ppm and 20ppm
Nitrate between 40 - 80ppm (is it just me or are these colours exactly the same!?)
Over the last 3 days your nitrates have risen; The nitrite eating bacteria are there, they just grow slower than the other sort. Of course the nitrite is rising, you are feeding the filter with ammonia and creating nitrites faster than the nitrite eating bacteria that you have can handle, the nitrites are supposed to rise; It's called a nitrite spike and is absolutely normal at this stage.
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Thank you Steve and Tigz! I'm at least relieved to know that someone else's cycle took a long time too! I was starting to think I was doing something massively wrong somewhere ha. Haha unfortunately patience has never been one of my traits, and I have a very short temper when it comes to inanimate objects so I'm very unimpressed with my tank currently ha. Once it gets some fish in there I'm sure I'll soon change my mind ha. At least it's comforting to know that if all goes to plan and I come down with a case of MTS then the cycle will be a lot quicker than this one!
I've done my am readings which are:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite off the scale (seems to be the same magenta colour every time!)
Nitrate still somewhere between 40 - 80ppm. It is quite a dark red this time though so I guess it could be edging towards the 160ppm.
Why has no-one invented these tests that just tell you the exact measurement yet? =D
Should I go back to doing the massive water changes I was doing the other day? It seems like such a waste of water but at the same time I don't want to delay my cycle any longer unnecessarily!
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Nitrate still somewhere between 40 - 80ppm. It is quite a dark red this time though so I guess it could be edging towards the 160ppm.
This is encouraging, and shows positive movement.
Why has no-one invented these tests that just tell you the exact measurement yet? =D
Unfortunately the test equipment for proper analysis costs vast amounts of money and are used in professional environments, such as our water suppliers. I've never seen any electronic test equipment for general fishkeeper use.
Should I go back to doing the massive water changes I was doing the other day? It seems like such a waste of water but at the same time I don't want to delay my cycle any longer unnecessarily!
Wait and see what others think, but for my own experience I would say yes to water changes. Remember that the bacteria is in the filter, so the water is only the medium to feed them. In my case I had very high NitrAte and due to my water being soft/very soft I had a pH crash. This caused my cycle to stall, until Sue came to my rescue. Changing water also allows you to see the NitrAte progressing, which helps your sanity whilst waiting for the NitrIte eaters to multiply.
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Haha definitely sounds like sage advise for the sake of my sanity if nothing else :-D I've stocked up on a lot of dechlorinator for the time being, so I can invest in some of the ones Sue mentioned for next time! Such a shame about the water testing equipment though - I guess eventually someone might be able to make one cheap enough for use at home!
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My younger son used to work for a water testing company and he said that nitrate was a difficult one to make a home test kit for. Their equipment cost many many thousand of pounds, but then they did have to test to a much greater degree of accuracy than we need.
The API test, and other similarly priced liquid tests, are usually good enough for aquarium use, but everyone complains about the API nitrate one and its shades of orange. If you want the Rolls Royce of testing kits, at a Rolls Royce price, look at Salifert. They are considered to be more accurate but at greater cost - they cost about the same to buy but do fewer tests. I've never come across any in shops, they are usually bought on-line.
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Hmm I think I'll stick to API for now, I guess I'll just get used to it!
I was at work for another 24 hours yesterday so before I left I did a big water change and dosed a smaller amount of ammonia. Today my readings are:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite either 2 or 5ppm (so I guess at least on the scale, though still higher than I'd like considering the low dose of ammonia and length of time since!)
Nitrate... a more reddy than orange colour, so I guess it's closer to 40ppm than 20ppm
I'm not sure what to do now given my nitrite is high and I only dosed a low amount 24 hours ago. Should I do a small water change and dose more ammonia? I'm getting so fed up with my nitrite eaters!
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The nitrite eaters are the slowest ones. You just have to be patient :)
Since the nitrite is somewhere on the scale, just add a bit more amonia and the next dose, maybe just 1ppm. Each 1ppm amonia ends up as 2.7ppm nitrite, and eventually on to 3.6ppm nitrate so just a small amount of ammonia added daily causes a big rise in nitrite while you wait for those nitrite eaters.
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I think this is getting more encouraging to be honest. Lessening the NitrAte by doing water changes is going to help keep things moving. One of the things I was doing was to take two readings each day, one in a morning and one in an evening (about 12 hours apart). The evening reading was followed by a water change if the NitrAte was at the top of the scale. If the Ammonia was showing zero, I'd pop some more in (for me my chosen teaspoon level gave me about 5ppm of ammonia dose in my 64ltr tank)
So it looked a bit like this...
AM: Test Ammonia, NitrIte and NitrAte (no ammonia dosing)
PM: Test Ammonia, NitrIte and NitrAte
PM Water Change if NitrAte at top.
PM Ammonia top-up only if PM reading zero.
By following a consistent pattern of testing, water changes and ammonia dosing the readings will start to make more sense and you'll begin to see that magic start to happen with the NitrIte's.
Quite soon it was apparent that the Ammonia was being consumed within 12 hours... (ie: dosed in the PM and by the AM it had all gone). It didn't actually take too long after that for the NitrIte to catch up. However, I also did as Sue suggests above, and I did reduce the input of ammonia dose to a mere dribble, probably in the target range Sue mentions.
It is a pain getting through this bit, but once it's done you'll enjoy the tank so much more because you won't need to worry about this aspect any more. We will be with you all the way through this, so keep plugging away.
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I'd follow Tigz's advice as he's been though it :D
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Thanks for the encouragement guys! As you can probably tell I'm not the most patient person in the world, I guess this is quite a nice exercise in being patient for me ha. The only problem I have with doing regular tests is my work hours unfortunately. I'm a support worker so I work shifts, and can often spend up to 24 hours in work at a time (as was the case last night) and my boyfriend seems reluctant to do any water testing for me! I guess I'll give him a bit of a prod to help me out if I promise it'll mean we can get fish sooner ha. My ammonia definitely seems to be being consumed within 12 hours, it's just the nitrite at the minute which has a lot of catching up to do, though I'm glad it's looking encouraging! I'll wait until this evening to dose a small amount of ammonia again and see what happens, hopefully I can get into a bit more of a routine with my testing times!
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OK so after getting home from work today I tested my water:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm (wooho still on the scale!)
Nitrate 80ppm
I did a 25% water change to try to bring the nitrite down a little and I'll wait until tonight to dose ammonia again.
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Excellent, I'm liking the look of that... don't forget to follow Sue's suggestion and only dose a small amount of Ammonia tonight. The next two reading you do will really start to talk to us.
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Woohoo! That's what I like to hear ha
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Ok so just got back from work and today my readings are:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
Nitrate 40ppm
I'm gonna do another 25% water change to bring down the nitrite. Urgh such a slow process!
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Actually I would hold off on a water change. The Nitrate is at 40ppm which is ok for now, so hold off until it gets into the red again 80+. Do your dribble dose of ammonia and read again tomorrow. It will be more revealing to see what both readings are without any dilutions through a water change.
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Damn I've only just seen this message after already doing the water change :( I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to leave it to its own devices again!
By the way would it thoroughly confuse my cycle if I got my plants relatively soon? I'm just thinking it would make my tank a little more appealing during this last leg of the cycle and help my patience somewhat... though I'm guessing that might confuse the readings etc? I'm getting a java fern and a moss ball if that makes any difference?
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No worries, we'll catch it next time round.
If you add plants they will attract algae, possibly lots of it, so I would advise no at the moment. Plus it gives you a live entity to look after in a water environment that keeps changing day by day. The plants won't enjoy that.
Let's get you balanced out first and then you can leap in.
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I thought as much! It makes sense, I'll hold fire :)
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OK tonight's reading are:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite is a very light purpley colour, I think about 2ppm as it's lighter than previously
Nitrate 40 or 80ppm
Dosed another small amount of ammonia tonight and I'll be able to do morning and night temperatures this weekend as I have the weekend off (woohoo!)
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Excellent!
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Sat am:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
Nitrate 40ppm
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Super, now let's see what that NitrIte is like by this evening. It should have gone down quite a bit.
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Looking good...... nearly there.
I've just added 5 Red Cherry Shrimps to my tank, however, giving them a well planted tank with bogwood and hiding places mean the little buggers hide all day. I think they're still alive. :-\
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Yes, stage 2 (growing the nitrite eaters) is well on it's way. Once nitrite is dropping very low in 24 hours, you can increase the ammonia doses slightly.
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Ha! Oh no I hope my shrimp don't do that too, though I guess they have got a lot of hiding places already and that's without my plants!
Sat PM:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite seems exactly the same as earlier :(
Nitrate 80ppm
I don't understand why nothing's happened :'(
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Sat am:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
Nitrate 40ppm
Sat PM:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite seems exactly the same as earlier :(
Nitrate 80ppm
With a NitrIte at the top end of the chart (ie: 5ppm) it will be difficult to notice any real differences, but don't panic, let's keep watch on the NitrAte now. You have given us a reading in NitrAte of 40 this morning and 80 this evening, which should indicate that your last reading was "more red" that the am reading.
Now, I personally have very great difficulty in choosing between 10/20ppm and 40/80ppm, so let's look at the next level, deep red NitrAte at the 160ppm.
Keep your dribble feed of Ammonia going, and don't change the water just yet.
What we need to see is the NitrAte hitting the high point (then we do a water change). The high ppm in NitrIte should gradually come down as you are feeding less Ammonia. It may take a few days, but I suspect you are actually doing just fine right now.
So, by tomorrow am I want to see your NitrAte above the 80ppm level... it should be getting towards a blood red colour.
I expect you will need to do another water change tomorrow night, just prior to your next dribble of Ammonia.
Doing great, keep it up.
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Well that's a relief!
Sun am was the same as Sat PM including ammonia 0ppm, since it was already 0ppm I haven't measured ammonia this evening
Sun pm:
Nitrate 60 / 80ppm (maybe slightly darker, but not approaching the blood red colour of 160ppm)
Nitrite: 2ppm / 5ppm (seems a more lillacy tint this time to me and seems lighter, though not enough for me to claim it's any lower!)
Hmm... shall I just dose ammonia again? I'm working 14 hours tomorrow so not sure if I can measure in the am
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Looking good. Yes dose the ammonia again, got to keep feeding a little to satisfy the ammonia eaters.
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Ha! Oh no I hope my shrimp don't do that too, though I guess they have got a lot of hiding places already and that's without my plants!
Ah.... 4 out of 5 of the shrimps are out (but not very about) so at least most of them have survived the transfer from the LFS to my tank. *phew*
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Glad to hear that Colin!
So today PM my readings:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 2 / 5ppm (seems very light to me, maybe I'm being too optimistic!)
Nitrate 40 / 80ppm
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Eeek! Baby shrimps!! One of the shrimps was chucking out shrimplets last evening so I turned the tank lights out to give them chance to hide somewhere before the fish scoffed them. I don't know if any survived but I hope some got into hiding places.
Sorry Jesnon - I feel like I'm hi-jacking your post ( :-[) but as I know you intend to get shrimps it might be of interest.
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Ha no worries at all, can't believe your shrimps have had babies already!!
Today my readings were:
Nitrite 2 / 5ppm
Nitrate seems much more blood red than 80ppm, but not quite at the level of 160ppm yet
Ammonia 0ppm
Mean anything to anyone!? I have most of the morning off tomorrow so can attend to any tank needs then and after 17 hours in work I then have 3 whole days off to keep an eye on these pesky parameters!
I just want to go fish shopping already!
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Ok, time for a water change to reduce the NitrAte, and a small dribble of Ammonia again. With your 17 hour shift coming up, another small ammonia dose will be required before you go. We can catch up again once your shift is done.
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I just want to go fish shopping already!
You're on the final lap! Note that you are now doing water changes to keep down the nitrates! Your nitrites are now measurable using your test-kit.
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Thanks for the encouragement! I've found something to distract myself in the mean time... an independent fish shop not too far away, I'm thinking of popping my head in at some point and having a look at their ranges of fish, I'm guessing they might be better 'quality' than the fish down the road and I'm hoping they have some more interesting endlers!
I did my water change and another little dribble of ammonia... fingers crossed my cycle has a kick start again soon!
Do you think it would be worth asking at the independent fish shop about media they could sell me? Or am I nearing the finish line and should just leave my cycle to it!?
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Even with some mature media you could well have to continue cycling. Depending just how much mature media you got hold of, it may not have enough bacteria in it for the fish you want. And it will depend on the amount of fish the filter media was dealing with. A small piece of medium from a very overstocked tank could well house more bacteria than a huge chunk from a very understocked tank. So you'd still need to add ammonia until you knew how many bacteria you had.
But it is still worth asking ;D
As a side note, if you ever get another tank, you won't have to go through all of this again as you'll be able to use the Edge's media to seed a new filter. And if you decide to upgrade and move all the fish over, you'll just have to move all the Edge's media to the new filter and add more fish slowly, a few at a time.
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Hmm I won't be able to get down to the shop for a little while, maybe at the weekend, but today's readings....
Nitrite 0.25ppm and very light at that, so I'd say between 0 - 0.25ppm
Nitrate 10 / 20ppm
Ammonia 0ppm
Can I have a party?!
I had a massive panic when I first tested for ammonia as it came out bright green so I thought I'd somehow killed my ammonia eaters, but it was then I realised it was because I'd used my ammonia dropper to put the right amount of water in the tube... oops!
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A small party is allowed now, then when your nitrite has dropped to zero for a few days in a row, you can have a huge "welcome fish" party ;D
Don't be in too much hurry to get fish. Wait a few days to make absolutely sure. And don't forget to check the water for several days after you get fish. It is good practice to do this whenever you get fish, however long a tank has been running.
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Yay! Getting really close to the finishing line now Jesnon, the prize is within sight. ;D
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Woop-woop. Nearly there! I congratulate you on your patience and persistance - it'll be well worth it in the end.
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Hehe thanks everyone - I'm so excited now! Makes me even keener to get down to that aquatics shop and eye up their fish :-) I know Maidenhead Aquatics had some interesting green endlers last time I was there, but that was a long time ago now and I've only ever seen the 'standard' ones before. Hopefully this independent shop will have some nice ones. I hear they have a large selection of shrimps and unusual fish too. Don't worry guys, I won't give in to temptation yet! Fingers crossed my little nitrite eaters get nomming over the next few days ha.
A few little things since I'm nearing the finish line... My tank doesn't have any kind of timer for the lights, do you think it would be worth investing in one? I don't really know how that would work though.... also how long should I put my lights on for when I have my plants and fish? And after I've got all my fish and things are a little settled how often is best to test the water to keep an eye on the parameters? I know since my tank is really small they're a little peskier to keep in check, but obviously given the expense of all the tests etc I don't want to be being excessive! One other thing... since shrimps are really sensitive how long should I leave it before getting them? Oh... and what temperature should I be aiming to set my tank to to accommodate everyone happily? I keep reading things about having oxygen in your tank etc and was getting concerned I haven't added anything extra like that to my tank, do you think it should be oxygenated enough for everyone with regular 25% water changes? Sorry for all the questions as usual!!
(As you can probably tell I'm a little excited now, just want to make sure I've got everything set up for when my tank is finally at the finish line!)
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A timer's well worth it - mines set from 7am to 8pm but that's not a 'written-in-stone' timing. A timer means you can have a lie-in at the weekend (or be a dirty stop-out ;D ) and the fish are looked after. They're only a few quid from B&Q.
My tank's at 24oC, but it's best to check your stock against the fish profiles here to see where the over-lap is. Too cool and your fish slow down a bit - too hot and they can turn up their little fishy toes.
Test every day for a week after getting new fish, then decrease to once a week as long as you're happy.
Wait a fair few months before getting shrimp. You want all your little bacteria nice and settled.
These are just my findings - others may differ - and probably will :). That's one of the problems with interweb forums - you have to 'vet' all your responces, and responders.
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All my tank lights are on timers, basic mechanical ones that cost a few pounds.
But does the Edge have a separate plug for the lights or is it one of those that has the heater, lights and filter all wired into the same plug?
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I'm not actually sure about the plug... I left the whole setting up of the tank to my partner, however having had a quick look at all the wires it does seem that there's three separate wires suggesting they all have separate plugs... or at least I hope so! I hadn't realised the timers were so easy and cheap to get hold of! Will definitely be looking for one ASAP. The fluval has a'night time' and 'day time' lighting option, though I don't think it would be possible to put these on the timers without some actual electrical rewiring. I'm guessing if I just leave the timer to it and change it to night time on the evenings I'm in? There's no real benefit from what I can tell except for looking pretty and mellow anyway ha.
Ooh a few months until I can get shrimpy friends? :-( Well I guess that's better than getting them only to kill them! Once my tank's fully cycled and been so for the stated length of time is it OK to get all of my 6 - 8 endlers in one go? I can't wait now! Also how do I go about adding plants? Do a big water change to get rid of nitrates for the fish, turn down the temp, go out and get my plants and add them and then the next day go and get fish? Just trying to work out the practicalities now since my hours are so erratic and I know my partner won't appreciate the task of going out and buying everything on his own!
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You should be OK with 6/8 endlers at once. Your plan sounds good re the water hcnage, plants and fish. If it'll be more than a day before getting fish, you will need to add some ammonia to stop the bacteria dying back, but a 24 to 48 hours gap is fine.
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Sounds good :-)
Pm readings not so good:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 3 to 5ppm
Nitrate 60 to 80ppm
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Oh dear :( This is why I said not to get fish yet. Bacteria are biological entities, and one thing I learned in biochemistry is that biological entities do not go in straight lines like in chemistry.
Keep your spirits up. The fact that the nitrite was dropping is a very good sign, this is just a little blip. The bacteria will soon get back on track again. As you already know, it's getting them started that's the worst bit, once there are some there they will multiply even if if it is a bit irregular.
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I've just realised I did something a little daft... because I'd been dosing ammonia about 3pm that was when I dosed yesterday, and then measured it again at about 11pm. How long should it really be taking to drop? This am was much more positive!
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate on the lower scale of 40ppm
Not going to lie when I saw the results last night I was massively disappointed! Hoping they continue like this one from now on. Maybe I should start dosing at a more normal time....! I guess at least I know now they're dropping after just less than 24 hours so maybe things will speed up soon!
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Ah-ha.... that would explain it. They should fall to zero over-night if you dosed in the late afternoon. Fingers crossed for fish by next weekend. 8) 8)
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Yay! Not as disappointing as I thought then! Oops ^^; Fingers crossed indeed! Annoyingly I'm actually away next weekend - typical!
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Annoyingly I'm actually away next weekend - typical!
Cancel immediately!! ;)
....you know you want to.
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Haha if it were something more dull I would be seriously tempted, but it's a big reunion with some friends I haven't seen for a long time so I can't really :-P I don't think getting them before going away would be advisable either ha. I guess I'll have to wait until the week after, grrr!
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If you'll be away from home, it would be safer to resist the temptation till you get back. If you don't trust anyone to dose ammonia in your absence, just leave it, then add ammonia to check on your return.
I do sympathise about the weekend away. I got my 125 litre a week before we were due to visit my in-laws for a few days and although I was just doing a straight swap - fish, filter media and decor from my 60 litre to the new tank - I just left it running with water and nothing else till we got back. It did look odd, a tank of water with nothing in it, not even decor as that was all in the smaller tank.
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Very annoying! Measured nitrite tonight and it's down to 0 (what a beautiful colour to finally see ha). Redosed ammonia now
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I dosed ammonia a lot higher last night, and this morning my nitrite was still quite high. PM readings:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 80ppm or darker
So I did a large water change and dosed the same amount of ammonia (1ml, which isn't too high given my ammonia appears to be quite weak)... am I right to be increasing my ammonia dose or should I just be sticking to a small dose?
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Also I know I've already mentioned my previous plan to get fish the day after plants etc... but would it be so bad if I got my plants tomorrow? I'm quite keen for something more interesting to be going on with my tank whilst I'm waiting for my fishies ha, and it gives me an actual reason to go to some fish shops other than fish window shopping when they might all be gone by the time my tank is ready!
On another note I went out today and managed to find one of those timers, which appears to work well so that's at least one more thing ticked off the list! :D I do wish that I'd bought a different substrate now though... maybe a darker one or sand...
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If you want to change your substrate, now's the time......
Yes, increasing the ammonia dose is good. The more bacteria you have when you get fish the better even if some of them then die off because you grew too many. That's much safer than not growing enough. The reason for keeping the dose low at the beginning is so there isn't as much nitrite as with higher doses while waiting for the nitrite eaters to grow. Once there are enough of both bacteria to deal with a low dose of ammonia, the dose amount should be increased till you are adding enough to give a reading of 4 to 5ppm (the API tester has a colour for 4 so 4 is easier with that tester). There will be almost enough now to deal with these larger doses, it shouldn't take very long for them to grow enough for the larger dose. In optimum conditions, these bacteria can double in number every 24 hours, though in our tanks it'll probably be a bit longer than that - our tanks won't be optimum conditions, the pH will be a bit wrong for them, or the hardness, or some mineral lacking etc etc.
Unless one of the plants experts says otherwise, I would think you can get plants. It won't be long before you are cycled so you shouldn't get much algae growth.
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Unless one of the plants experts says otherwise, I would think you can get plants. It won't be long before you are cycled so you shouldn't get much algae growth.
You can get plants now if you wish... but, having plants during a cycle will complicate your measurements with the test kits. Plants will consume ammonia in competition with your filter bacteria, if there is insufficient ammonia, they will consume nitrates. This can mask the progress of your cycle. I would recommend that you leave the plants for a while... your cycle is almost over, why complicate your life now?
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I guess I'll stick it out for a little while longer then!
Today's readings:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 40ppm
So I've dosed a larger amount of ammonia :-)
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I'm on my third substrate now! My first was ~3-4mm gravel, and allowed all the 'gunk' to fall through it and got dirty very quickly. The plants didn't seem to like it either. I then replaced that with the sand that MA had in stock. This was 'silver sand' and really fine grained so it compacted and allowed no circulation at all. The plants didn't like it and all the 'gunk' sat on the sand surface and looked poo! ('cos it was ;D )
Substrate #3 was this: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/unipac-fiji-fine-sand-125kg-p-5203.html (http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/unipac-fiji-fine-sand-125kg-p-5203.html).
It's ~1-2mm and it allows some circulation and filtering through of water and 'gunk'. It allows the mulm to act as firtiliser and it works well to anchor the plants. It looks good and the fish can push it around while rooting for bits of food etc. I'm very pleased with it. I'm going to try and get some piccies later today so I'll post those up.
Now would be a good time to change substrate, before you have plants and fish. I would think that's even more imperative in a Fluval Edge because of the limited access.
You might want to read this if you haven't already: http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/article/substrates-and-soil-for-tropical-aquarium-plants.html
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Hmm I'm a little confused - how would I ensure that my java fern were to get enough nutrients if it's attached to a bogwood? And how does it work with a moss ball as they don't have roots or anything that I know of? I probably won't change my substrate now, perhaps I'll just get a different kind if I get another tank! Though all I have is gravel in my tank... do I need something else!?
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I have plants that aren't rooted (java fern and anubias) and I add a liquid fertiliser.
Is that right, plant experts? ;D
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Ooh any recommendations would be good! Is it pricey??
Tonight's readings are disappointing after a high dose of ammonia last night :-(
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 2ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
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The one I have is Seachem Flourish, but I'm not sure if I should be using something else as well. The bottle talks about micro elements, trace elements and other nutrients but adds that for macro elements you should use something else.
This bottle cost £7.99 for 100ml and the dose rate is 5ml per 250 litres.
Note that this is not Flourish Excel, which is a liquid carbon product.
You've started me thinking now, I'll have to ask in the planted section what I should be using. ;D
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Jesnon, see my thread in the planted section and, more importantly, Steve S's reply ;D
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Thanks Sue! Unfortunately cycling isn't going to well,perhaps I rushed upping the dose of ammonia too quickly. this morning
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 2ppm
Nitrate 80ppm or higher
So I did a large water change and have left it until I'm home from work
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Tonight's readings probably don't mean much since I did a water change around 2pm, but:
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate somewhere between 20 and 40ppm (relatively dark orange, not on the red scale yet)
I've just dosed some ammonia (around 1ml) and I'm off until 3pm tomorrow so I can see how my nitrite eaters are going with the 12 hour 'limit'... I'm hoping better!
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Sorry, my brain just isn't working this morning. I'm still half asleep, I've only been up half an hour - remind me, what ppm does your ammonia dose give?
Your tank is 23 litres isn't it? Using a cacluator on another site, 1 ml of 9.5% ammonia will give 4.15ppm in a 23 litre tank.
If your ammonia is 9.5%, you are adding 4.15ppm every time you dose 1ml. That means you don't need to increase the dose size. You are already there. And male endlers don't have a very big bioload so if it is 9.5% you are ready to go once you have a week of double zeros. With even 5% ammonia, you should be OK for half a dozen male endlers.
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Hmm my ammonia is quite weak, and I measured it last night to a reading of about 2ppm. Is that actually a high enough dose for my endlers?
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I would increase the ammonia dose to 1.5ml. That should give you 3ppm, which should be enough. I would prefer it if you had too many bacteria rather than not enough ;D
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Makes sense!
Unfortunately I have absolutely no idea what's going on with my tank any more :'(
This morning's readings:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 2 or 5ppm
Nitrate 40ppm
I'm getting so frustrated... what am I doing wrong!? Anyone have any suggestions / have a clue what's happening with my nitrite eaters?!
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I've been having a think over lunch. How about a new approach? Rather than keep dosing ammonia and doing water changes, don't add any ammonia for 48 hours, and don't do a water change. The bacteria won't starve that quickly and it'll give the nitrite eaters chance to get rid of the nitrite there now without the ammonia eaters adding more. Then after 48 hours, add 0.5ml ammonia and see if the two bacteria can clear than in 12 to 24 hours. If they can, increase to 1ml and see what happens.
Have you been keeping an eye on your pH just in case?
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Thanks for the tips Sue, sounds sensible to me! I haven't measured my Ph for a while actually so shall have a look at that tomorrow.
PM readings are:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
So it looks like my nitrite eaters are getting to work within 24 hours, but not within the 12 hour limits. Given the zero readings shall I go back to dosing ammonia tonight? I've left it for now and I'm heading to bed as after a week of late shifts I'm feeling quite knackered, but can dose in the morning if that makes sense as I have the day off and can measure both am and pm readings easily :-)
It's so frustrating doing water changes with no fish! I guess I might have to do one tomorrow though because of my high nitrates? Eh... I wish I could get fish!
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Nearly there - don't rush the last bit after being so patient.
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Yes, dose in the morning and see what happens.
And check the tank's pH just in case (before adding the ammonia)
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Just checked Ph, it's still 8.2 which is good at least!
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Yes, it is good. It occurred to me yesterday that I hadn't asked about your pH and I know if that falls too low it can affect the cycle.
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I just wonder why things are being so slow with my tank!
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It's been what, 61/2 weeks? That is fairly normal for a fishless cycle. You should see the questions on other forums where people haven't seen a drop in ammonia in that length of time ;D
Patience is the only answer I'm afraid ;D
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Haha phew, I'm relieved I wasn't in that situation! Do you think my tank will be cycled by next Thursday? I have the day off so I'm hoping I can go fish shopping then or Friday!
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It depends on what your nitrite is doing. It is dropping by itself, a good sign. If it's dropping to zero without water changes and daily doses of ammonia by next Thurs I'd say yes, get your fish.
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Things are still a little slow here still unfortunately. I was away all weekend so not sure what's been going on, but I kept the doses of ammonia (I did one before I left and one last night on my return).
As of 3pm today:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
:-(
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Nitrite has been off the scale for two days now, so I'm doing a later water change tonight... I don't understand what's going on
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Remember to check the NitrAte. If that's gone ballistic (ie: top of the scale) then it can affect the colony. This may explain why the NitrIte is still hanging around. Water change will definitely be required to get the readings down and moving again. I think it's just a little blip, let's see how well it recovers after you do the water change. Better hit it with at least a 50% to see where we get up to.
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OK I've done a 90% water change to try and sort things out... should I be testing the water again now too? Or is it OK to wait until the morning?
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Testing the water in the morning is perfectly ok, but if you then add some more Ammonia (which I'm sure it will need), wait a bit to allow it to mix and test with the Ammonia kit again. This will give you the baseline for subsequent tests, and help you "see" how the cycle is progressing.
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Gah stupidly I dosed ammonia last night after the water change and then happily went to sleep without seeing your message :-(
Of course now my nitrite levels are high again and I don't know how much ammonia I dosed =/
I dosed 1ml of ammonia and this morning:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm or more
Nitrate 10 / 20ppm
Blah
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Don't dose any ammonia for a couple of days. The ammonia eaters will take longer than that to starve. Do a 50% water change asap and check to see if the nitrite is down to the middle of the scale. So then you'll have a lowish nitrite and no ammonia for the ammonia eaters to turn into more nitrite. See what happens to the nitrite reading over the next 48 hours.
Then add enough ammonia to give just 1ppm* and see if the nitrite eaters can cope with that. At this stage, you need a balance between feeding enough ammonia for the ammonia eaters but not so much that the nitrite eaters can't cope. It is better to have a few ammonia eaters die off with a low ammonia dose rather than have the growth of the nitrite eaters inhibited by high nitrite/nitrate. The ammonia eaters will soon multiply once the nitrite eaters are growing nicely and it is safe to increase the ammonia dose.
*Edit - note, that's enough ammonia to give 1ppm not 1ml. It took 0.5ml of my ammonia to give 1ppm in a 25 litre tank, and I've had the bottle so long it'll have a lot less ammonia in it than there used to be.
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Hmm I now seem to have gone too far the other way... I did too large a waterchange as my tank is currently:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
I'm off to work but finish at 10 and have two days off (I was hoping to get my fish during those days but doesn't look like that's happening now!)
Should I dose ammonia and measure it so it's 1ppm when I'm home tonight?
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I only said to wait because you had a lot of nitrite and thought it could be useful to see if the filter could clear what was there without any more being added. That way you'd know for sure if you had any nitrite eaters.
You could try this instead - add enough ammonia tonight to give 1ppm and see if the filter bacteria can remove the 2.7ppm nitrite that will be made from that 1ppm ammonia. If it's not cleared in 24 hours, give it another 24 (total 48) and see if the nitrite has been cleared by then. That should give you some idea of the status of the nitrite eating colony.
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Ha yeah that had been my intention, guess i got a bit carried away. tank dosed to 1ppm this evening, will test in the morning and see what the state of my cycle is... Fingers crossed!
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AM
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 2 - 5ppm
Nitrate on the darker side of 10 - 20ppm
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OK, don't add any ammonia today and see what the nitrite is tommorrow. There won't be any more nitrite made during today, so if it's lower tomorrow you'll know you have some nitrite eaters and it's just a matter of waiting for them to multiply. If it's still the same, we'll have to think of something to get the nitrite eaters started.
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I don't know what happened to them all :-( Silly nitrite eaters!
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Well something is happening, albeit very slowly...
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite between 0.25 - 0.5ppm
Nitrate between 10 - 10ppm
I was having some problems getting drops out of my second bottle of Nitrate solution though... it feels full and I'd shook it up etc, but for some reason it just wasn't coming out!
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Have you got a pin or something that you can stick into the nozzle of the bottle? That's the one where one reagent settles out and you might have a bit of solid matter bunging up the hole.
Right, you do have some nitrite eaters. You just need to grow some more. The thing now is not to add too much ammonia. I suggest adding a smaller dose of ammonia than your usual one. Try half. If the nitrite level goes too high again, miss a dose of ammonia. Once you are getting zero for nitrite, then you can slowly increase the size of the dose to grow some more of both bacteria.
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Well something is happening, albeit very slowly...
Yippee! (http://www.argent-labs.com/argentwebsite/fish.gif)
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Thanks guys!
Yesterday I dosed 0.4ml ammonia
Today:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrate between 20 and 40ppm
Should I increase the dose again?
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Those results look good :D
I would dose the same today and if the nitrite is still dropping after that then increase the dose slowly over a few days.
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Makes sense :-)
Ahh it's so frustrating! I have 3 days off next week, but looks like I won't be getting fish again! I'm away for 24 hours now at work, so I'm gonna measure as late as I can just before I leave and then if needed dose more ammonia. I think I did 0.5ml last night or 0.4ml, one or the other!
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Normally I measure around 10pm after dosing at a similar time... but currently:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 2 - 5ppm
Nitrate 20 - 40ppm
So I haven't dosed ammomia and won't do dose until after 3 tomorrow, when my nitrite eaters should have caught up and I'm back from work!
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Oops didn't update yesterday! Nitrite had dropped to 0 so I dosed 0.5ml ammonia
24 hours later:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite very blue, somewhere between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrate between 20 - 40ppm
I haven't dosed yet, but will be doing so around 10pm so I can go back to checking at 10am and 10pm, as I'm off for 3 days now! How much ammonia do you think I should dose? And how long away are my fish?! I'm getting very itchy feet now!
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Since you are now getting to zero nitrite, or thereabouts, add the amount you have been adding x2. Then when nitrite drops to zero again, add the amount you have been adding up to now x3. Snd so on till you get to 4ppm immediately after the dose has mixed in, and wait till you get seven days of double zeros within 12 hours after adding ammonia.
Or if you are really desparate to get fish, wait for 3 days of double zeros after 12 hours but keep a close eye on the levels for a few days after.
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12 hours after the dose and my nitrite eaters have achieved nothing so far!
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm (potentially higher)
Nitrate 40 - 80ppm
This whole process is so frustrating. My boyfriend wants to just get rid of the tank since it's 'obviously not working'...!!
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Ignore the boyfriend - he's just jealous of all the attention your tank is getting. ;D
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Haha true! Must admit I have a bit of a love hate relationship with my tank / bacteria currently!
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One thing you could try - buy a bottle of Tetra's Safe Start. It is the replacement for Bio Spira, the American product that was the one that worked best for adding bacteria. A lot of people swear by Safe Start though others report that it is useless. But the way your nitrite eaters are behaving, if it was me I would be grasping at any straw that might help.
I have the option to use some mature media if my cycle ends up the same way, in your case Safe Start might just help. Being seen to be doing something might keep your boyfriend quiet a bit longer ;D
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I see you've posted elsewhere ;D
If TwoTankAmin replies, follow his advice. He is very well read in the literature of fishless cycling and is much more up to date than anyone else on that site. I have trouble following him at times ;D
I would pm you over there, but you can't acess your pm's till you've reached 10 posts (to stop spammers)
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Haha yes I was getting quite desperate and stumbled across that site earlier when I was googling 'cycles stuck in nitrite phase'! The forum is a lot more confusing than this one I discovered though. Fingers crossed someone has some suggestions :D I'm out tomorrow so I may have a look for some nutrafin cycle and give it a go - I don't think it's that expensive so it'll be worth a try even if it does achieve nothing! I had a bottle that came with my tank but it was really small, I don't think it was even enough for the first two days of the recommended dose.
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Nothing much going on still unfortunately.
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite appears to have dropped so it's now on the scale, around 5ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
I'm not dosing ammonia and leaving it until tomorrow morning to see if my nitrite eaters catch up... then I'm heading to buy some nutrafin cycle and to visit the fish shop I've been wanting to check out for a while now! Maybe they'll have some advice or let me borrow some media, or of course try and sell me something... only time will tell!
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Don't get Nutrafin Cycle - that has a terrible reputation for doing nothing. Look for Tetra Safe Start - that has worked in some cases. And any shop that gives mature media will most likely sell you some as they can't guarantee they'll ever see you again if you borrow it.
That other site is completely different from this one. I joined both at the same time in 2006. Just to warn you, the posters on there tend to be a bit more aggressive in their manner than people here. The one advantage the other site has over this is that it has a lot more active members so someone should be able to come up with something.
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Ahh sorry I think I got the names mixed up in my head or had thought they were the same product!
I did suspect it would be a little bit like that - I think any time you have a larger group of posters it always seems that the community feel is lost a little and people are a bit more aggressive!
In good news though this morning I woke up to....
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm (!!!)
Nitrate 20ppm
I'm a little concerned that these results are only because I topped up some evaporation loss I'd left for a few days (that would I guess explain why my nitrate is so low... so I'm not getting too excited yet!) Would that have brought my nitrite levels down to 0 or am I being too pessimistic?
Whatever the case what should I do now!?
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In other good news though, the new shop I want to check apparently has in stock Japanese blue and yellow endlers... do you happen to know much about these guys!?
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Look at it this way. Your tank is about 25 litres (makes the maths easier). If it had evaporated down to 20 litres and had a nitrite of 5ppm, adding 5 litres to bring the volume back up to 25 litres would drop the nitrite to 4ppm.
So topping it up can't have dropped the nitrite from 5-ish to 0.
It looks as though the nitrite eaters are growing !!!!!!
Right, take it slowly, you don't want the nitrite to shoot up again. Add enough ammonia to get 1ppm and see what happens to your nitrite tomorrow. If it's zero again tomorrow add another 1 ppm's worth of ammonia. If it's zero again on Saturday, add 2ppm's worth of ammonia.
If it is not zero tomorrow, don't add any ammonia until it is zero, and then just 1ppm's worth.
Breeders have been developing strains from both pure endler and endler-guppy hybrids for years. There's a man in the US responsible for most of the work, he's known as Adrian HD.
Have a look here Japan blues (http://endlers-usa.com/viewtopic.php?p=6820&sid=21944004da63169844ab010d794e9bfe) It looks as though the blues are a hybrid, and presumably the yellow ones are too. Pure endlers are very hard to come by, you have to get them from known breeders. The endlers in the shops are all hybrids.
But just because they are hybrids doesn't mean they are monster fish. They are just as healthy as pure endlers and porbably a lot more healthy than most guppies in shops these days. If you like the looks of them, go for them. I have 4 different colours in my tank. If they'd only keep still, I'd take some photos, but all I ever get are blurs ;D
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In good news though this morning I woke up to....
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm (!!!)
Nitrate 20ppm
I'm a little concerned that these results are only because I topped up some evaporation loss I'd left for a few days (that would I guess explain why my nitrate is so low... so I'm not getting too excited yet!) Would that have brought my nitrite levels down to 0 or am I being too pessimistic?
Whatever the case what should I do now!?
The strange thing is that your Nitrates have dropped from 80 to 20 in a day, so I'm not sure what's going on here, I'm afraid.
If it were me, then I'd do a re-test. It may well be 'operator error'.
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Well spotted Colin, I missed that :-[
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Thanks for the comments RE: the fish Sue, will make sure to check them out when I go to the shop and see what I think to them! The green ones that Maidenhead Aquatics had were pretty cute so I think I'd be happy if I could get a mix of them! Though now you've got me tempted by a little betta too ha.
So I retested my results and:
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate is still between 20 and 40ppm, it's quite reddy. I gave it an extra good shake up and I'm testing in daylight so they're definitely right... perhaps because I was testing last night in the dark and I added some lower nitrate level water that's made the difference? I'm more inclined to think I was wrong on the last two tests though!
I've just added 0.5ml ammonia and I'm waiting for it to mix in to find out if the dose isn't too much for my nitrite eaters... I'm hoping not anyway!
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One thing I should also say - I invested in a 2.5ml syringe the other day to make my life easier when measuring out 5ml for the tests, so I guess they're more likely to be accurate now??
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Nitrate is one of the most unrealiable to test for in the home. The best we can hope for is a ball park figure. Not shaking bottle 2 enough can give inaccurate results as well.
The syringe will help with ammonia and nitrite though.
And in a 23 litre tank, it'll have to be either a betta or endlers. I wouldn't risk anything with a betta in a tank that small, except perhaps a snail. My bettas have all been fine with a nerite snail in a 25 litre tank. I did try african dwarf frogs with two of them, but that wasn't a success. The plakat (short fins) wasn't the problem, it was the half-moon - the frogs mistook his long fins for food and bit him till he got finrot. You will read that dwarf frogs are good betta tankmates but I'd never mix the two again.
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Hmm if I had a betta would that mean we couldn't have shrimps too? Tricky!
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Some bettas can live with shrimps but a lot will eat them. If you get a betta that turns out to be a shrimp eater, any shrimps you get could turn out to be expensive fish food.
If you do decide on a betta, they do better (sorry!) with specialised food. There are a few makes, but Atisons (ordinary not pro) is the best though I've never seen it in shops. I see that ebay has stopped selling it, but it is available in other on-line shops. A small pack is all you need; the big ones last way way past their best before date.
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Ooh thanks for that Sue :-) I'll show my boyfriend a picture of some bettas and see what he thinks.. he might be more interested in the tank with a beautiful betta fish ha! I am really attached to the idea of having shrimp though, but wouldn't want them to end up as food! Tricky, decisions decisions!
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It's a good excuse for another tank ;D
That wouldn't be nearly as bad as cycling this one. If you waited a couple of months, then took some mature-ish media from the Edge, a new tank would cycle much faster ;D
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See - easy decision. Another tank! ;D ;D
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Haha definitely sounds like a plan! :-D
We might be moving some time in July and I've heard it's often easier to get and set up another tank in the new place and have them running at the same time to move the inhabitants straight into... so maybe I'll get another tank then! I definitely think I'll be wanting another tank soon enough! I really wanted to have those clown fish eventually, but I'm not sure how difficult marine fish are to keep considering how complicated tropical are!!
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Hi Jesnon,
Bearing in mind that I know squat all, I just thought I'd add my two-pennorth about Tetra Safe Start. I also got some in my tank kit, which I used but probably didn't get any benefit from as I threw most of my tank water away when it all turned brown, from my bogwood. Anyway, tank refilled and cycling started, hubby, (trying to earn Brownie points!) came home triumphant with a new bottle of the Safe Start as he knew I had used all my original bottle. Not wishing to appear ungrateful (and trying to keep him onside with the palaver of setting up my tank) I figured it could do no harm to add it to the tank. After all, if it didn't work, then no harm done and I could carry on as before but if by some miracle it speeded things up...oh, joy!
Anyway, I am convinced it helped. Not wishing to jinx things, my nitrite levels have been consistently zero and I have now had my little fishies for two weeks. I'm sure it can't hurt to try it and you never know, it might just work for you too. By the way, hubby said he went through all the bottles on the shelf and got the one with the longest expiry date. Don't know if that would make much difference but the fact it has a date and contains bacteria, I guess it makes sense that it can become stale.
Good luck and I hope you can very soon get your little fishies! I also have a little betta fish (in his own tank) named Rafe and I love him! He is the most beautiful midnight blue...in fact, thinking about it, most of my fish are blue. Guess what my favourite colour is :)
Resa
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Hi Jesnon,
Me again.....just spotted your new post re. clown fish. My son has had a marine set up for about 100 years...well, maybe not quite that long, but anyway, in the early days I used to dread asking him how his latest fish was, as he definitely had some casualties, which aside from the upset of losing a little chap you have taken care over choosing, they cost SO much!!! He has though, still got one of his original fish, I believe it is a foxface, and he has grown huge (the fish...not my son!) 'Foxy' is now well over ten years old! I have to admit marine tank (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/marines/cost)s certainly are beautiful and the fish are such vibrant colours. I would love to have one myself one day. Even without fish, the different corals and anemones are stunning.
Resa
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Your cycle did seem very fast to me Resa, so maybe that's what did the job! I went out earlier and bought some safe start just to try it (I figured it was worth a try if nothing else) and I've added it to the tank, I'll leave it as late as possible before testing today and see what happens (I didn't dose ammonia until around 1pm so I won't be able to test after 12 hours as I'll probably be in bed, but I'll leave it until around 11!). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that my nitrite eaters, combined with the bottled bacteria, will result in lots of 0s from now on :-)
I do think bettas are stunning little fish, and having just one I guess it would be easier to discover their 'personality' a bit more than a larger group of smaller fish. Though I showed my boyfriend (who I expected to be more excited about the bettas than endlers) and he said they look 'poncy'!! There's no winning haha.
Ooh well I'm glad to hear of your son's success! Maybe it's something for me to try further down the line when I've built up some experience with fishes!
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resa
i think il try a bottle of 'tetra safe start' reading what u said. anything just to try and get things goin. ive already added some matured gravel to my filters to see if that would help. im on day 5 of my cycling process now. when do you add the bottle? soon as or towards the end of the cycle?
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Hi Jesnon,
I'll keep my fingers crossed for your little bugs to do their stuff! I am sure it made a difference to my cycle time.
Men! What are they like??? I'm sure they just try and be contrary :)
Have a good evening.
Resa
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Hi Chrisp,
It can't hurt, can it? Don't forget though, as Sue said, only the Tetra Safe Start. From all the reading I've been doing since starting out on this fishy lark...and believe me, I've done LOADS of reading, this is the only filter starter that seems to have any effect and has got quite a lot of positive comments.
You add it straight away, but not all at once. It tells you on the bottle the dosage you need depending on your tank size. You use a course of it over three days, as I recall.
The only downside of you doing it is we won't know if it is the safe start or your gravel that does the trick. Never mind, the important thing is that you get there as soon as is safely possible for your future little bubble
-blowing residents :D
Good Luck!
Resa
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lol ok thanks ;)
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The main work done on filter bacteria was by Dr Tim Hovanec in the USA. He is the one who discovered that the nitrite eaters were not the species originally thought. Early 'bottled bacteria' products contained the wrong one. The company he worked for introduced a product called Bio Spira which, if stored correctly, actually worked.
I'm not 100% sure on the details, but it is something like Tetra bought the company that marketed Tim Hovanec's product, and Safe Start is the follow on product from Bio Spira. In the UK, there used to be a product similar to Bio Spira called Bactinettes, but that has long gone.
Tim Hovanec formed his own company and markets a product in the USA, Dr Tim's One and Only, but it is very hard to get in the UK and as it must be kept under strict conditions all the time I wouldn't like to risk spending my money on something that may have been stored incorrectly during transport.
Safe Start is the product that works in more cases than any other. But it too is dependant on correct storage. While it isn't as bad as One & Only, if it has got too hot or too cold or been on the shelf too long it won't work. But it does not work instantly as a lot of shops would have you believe. Even when it works perfectly it takes several days. The instructions should be followed to the letter - I think they include not doing any water changes? which is why I personally would only use it for a fishless cycle.
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My bottle said to use it once, immediately go out and buy fish (which I'm obviously not going to do ha!), and then use it too whenever you do a water change / add new water. Is that the same as yours Resa? I was expecting it to be a three day dose thing too :s It's worth a try Chrisp, it at least feels like you're doing something ha
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Anything to get it goin ;)
Like sue said tho, storage can be key to this. My bottle is coming tomoz. How do I know if it's all dead already lol. Soon Find out in a couple of days now lol
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Adding ammonia from a bottle is exactly the same as getting fish as far as the bacteria are concerned. I would add more Safe Start at a few water changes once you have fish just to make sure - you have the bottle so may as well use it. But long term there's no point. If there are enough bacteria in the filter to care of all the waste from the fish in the tank adding more isn't going to improve anything. So long as you don't do something silly like forgetting to add dechlorinator or washing the filter media in plain tapwater ;D
Chris - the only way to find out is to use it and see what happens ;D
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:-) Makes sense!
Last night my readings weren't very good (though it has been only about 9 hours since I dosed ammonia). Nitrite was still about 5ppm.
I've just done my water test today, it's been around 21 hours since my ammonia dose:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm (this is beginning to be my favourite colour!)
Nitrate 40ppm
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Hi Guys!
Sorry about the delay in answering today, our bloody broadband is so-oo slow normally but today it has been up and down all day.....driving us crazy! Anyway, quick replies before the donkey falls over again :D
Jesnon, yes sorry, my brain does it's own thing lately, on checking with hubby (as I don't have the bottle still) he said I am obviously on mushrooms because the safe start was tip it all in straight away...then get fish! I was getting confused with the Nutrafin Cycle which came with the tank. That was the one that was the three day dosing instructions. The safe start worked out that we needed 50mls for our size tank, but we could only get 30ml bottles, so we just threw two of them in! I figured it didn't matter and as I wasn't getting any fishy friends until I had had a clear run of double zeros I thought I would just see what happened.
So guys, I wish you luck and hope it works for you and Sue, keep up the good work (without cheating). At least you have got some fishies to watch ;D
resa
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Ahh thanks for that Resa! I was a little worried I'd ended up with a dodgy bottle or something as I got it from The Range round the corner that have quite a few fishy things rather than an actual fish shop!
I'm still mulling over my endler & shrimps vs. betta conundrum! Would there be anything in my tank I need to change e.g. the substrate or anything like that for a betta? I feel like I remember reading somewhere that they don't like gravel but might have made that up entirely!
I'm waiting until this evening to dose 1ppm ammonia (which oddly worked out at 1ml of ammonia... my ammonia must be super weak!). What dose of ppm am I ultimately aiming for to clear within 12 hours for my fishies?
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Bettas are fine with anything smooth on the bottom - smooth so not to risk their fins catching or getting cut. That's the only rule really for anything in a betta's tank. Gravel is fine, I once had large pebbles but took them out when I got the frogs (risk of them getting their legs trapped). Sand is good too - that's what'll be in mine because I have a lot left from the bags I used for my other tanks. I swapped the bigger tanks to sand a couple of years ago.
If you decide on just a betta, 2ppm would be fine - that's what I'll aim for once my cycle finally gets under way. For endlers and shrimp, maybe a tad more, perhaps 3ppm. The thing with small tanks like your Edge and my 25 litre is that they should be understocked, so we won't need the full 5ppm-worth of bacteria.
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It's a beautiful, sunny Spring day...a little on the warm side admittedly, and I have to go and get Easter pressies for my grand-daughters. Now, strangely enough, the shop I want for that is right next door to one of the fishy shops ;D so as I need to get a new plant for Rafie, (he has eaten all of his old one!!!) I feel it makes sense to pop in there as well ;) After all, I didn't get to go the other day as it seemed to be the day all my family and friends back in the UK decided to ring me for catch up chats :)
Now, I am ONLY going for a plant....I must be strong, I must be strong, I must.....pray for me, friends :)
Resa
;)
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Thanks Sue, does that mean the bogwood would be OK or might it snag their fins? 2ppm - 3ppm isn't too bad, hopefully my bacteria are doing well!
Haha Resa good luck - try to resist the temptation!!
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Ooh Sue - I remember you saying previously I could have 6 - 8 endlers... would 8 and eventually some shrimp be too much for my tank? I'm just thinking of all the colours, I could get 2 yellow, 2 blue, 2 normal and 2 green (assuming all the colours are still in stock when my tank is cycled!)
Still trying to decide!
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8 should be fine. Males are only tiny. I have about that number in my 125 - the reason I say 'about' is because it's almost impossible to see them all at once to count. On the whole they do stick together as a group, though there's always the odd one or two off wandering.
Bettas and bogwood depends on the actual piece of wood. Some is rough, other bits are smooth. Did you know you can get java fern on coconut shells? Half shells with a semicircle cut in the edge are often used for caves and they are smooth enough. Just an idea.......
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It's a beautiful, sunny Spring day...a little on the warm side admittedly, and I have to go and get Easter pressies for my grand-daughters.
Resa
;)
It's a cold, sleeting, miserable day here - so make the most of the good weather, Resa.
How strong were you? Inquiring minds want to know! ;D
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Great - thanks Sue! I think I'm leaning more towards endlers at the minute, but I might be tempted to change a few things in my tank for a pretty enough betta!
I'm intrigued too Resa - any new additions to your tank?!
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Hi Guys,
Yes, finally spring seems to have arrived here, Colin. It's about a month behind. I saw all the snow and rain on the news for UK......bet you still have a hosepipe ban this summer though :D I wrote a long post to you today about the snakes....and the damn computer lost it (along with my shopping) when the broadband kept pfaffing about. >:( I'll attempt it again over the weekend. Hope the weather improves over the weekend for you all.
Just realised, I've hijacked Jesnon's thread.....sorry :( I'll head on over back to mine!
Resa
:)
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Oh...forgot to say...got the pressies I needed, then went in to TWO fishy shops. I tried to fight it...I really did! What beautiful fishies they had though, so-oo...I had to get 6 little pandas and a puffer.
Definitely going back to my thread now...see you there ;)
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Haha New arrivals for you then resa!
I'm away from tank for 31 hours for work but readings this am:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 160
This is my partners readings... I guess I need a water change but cant until tomorrow. Can he dose ammonia in the evening or shall he leave it?
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This is my partners readings... I guess I need a water change but cant until tomorrow. Can he dose ammonia in the evening or shall he leave it?
With a high NitrAte reading and more NitrIte to be eaten, I would leave it until after a water change. You'll need a big one too, well over 50% to get the NitrAte down again. The Ammonia eaters will be ok without any food until then.
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Oh...forgot to say...got the pressies I needed, then went in to TWO fishy shops. I tried to fight it...I really did! What beautiful fishies they had though, so-oo...I had to get 6 little pandas and a puffer.
Definitely going back to my thread now...see you there ;)
Sorry to continue the highjacking jesnon but Resa's post is ringing very loud alarm bells.
Resa - a puffer!!!??! I suggest you keep a close eye on your other fish.
Edit - did you or did you not get any fish?
Sorry... the devil got in to me and I was bored! So no, I didn't really buy any pandas or puffers
Getting me worried like that. Naughty naughty ;D
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Oops...sorry Sue, I felt the darkness engulf me, and I couldn't help myself ;D I think it was probably the stress of seeing my little pandas I want so-ooo much and walking away from them....I swear I heard them calling me back!
Resa
;)
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I know the feeling. Luckily I didn't see a betta I wanted this morning when I ventured into a shop ;D
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Thanks Sue, will sort it all out when I'm home tomorrow afternoon :-)
Can't believe you had us all going resa! im happy that nitrite levels re getting there slowly!
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My fish tank seems to have broken :-(
Just did a huge water change and now my filter won't turn back on :'(
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The propellor is now working again but it doesn't suck any water up through the filter, just makes a straining noise.
I'm not really sure what to do :-( If I have to start all over again...
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Follow the instructions for priming your filter. It sounds like there's air in the filter pump. If this is so, it just makes stupid noises and won't actually pump water.
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Thanks Steve! My boyfriend took the filter apart and made a few adjustments and in the end it was just a case of air being in the filter pump - all looking great now! Eek I was very concerned all my poor bacteria were gonners (just think if I'd actually got fish at this point!!).
Panic over!!
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Another thing to watch for is the impeller not starting. The Edge is made by Hagen, and I used to have a Trio filter made by Hagen. It was a very good filter except for one quirk - when I turned it off to do a water change it wouldn't start again. The design made it very easy to remove the pump from the filter and all I had to do was hold the pump outlet downwards and gently flick that vanes of the impleer. That quickly started the pump then all I had to do was manouevre it back onto the filter without soaking myself. I've heard of other types of filter made by Hagen having the same problem.
Once you have fish in the tank, every so often check the impeller and the impeller well for slime build up. A cotton bud used very carefully can be used to clean the well - make sure the end doesn't fall off inside as it's very tricky to get it back out again. I speak from experience ;D
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Thanks for the advice Sue! I had such a panic!!
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As a treat to celebrate not having to start from the beginning I'm either going to the aquarium or going to two local fish shops to do some window shopping!
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I think that's exactly what you should do, Jesnon! :D It's very difficult to leave without any little fishy bags though! You just have to remind yourself that you've come this far, and your little bubble-blowers (when you get them) will stand their best possible chance in their new home.
Fingers crossed....my little tribe seem to be happy and healthy enough, I hope I haven't jinxed things! Sue and Colin said the first month is the real testing time for new arrivals...especially for my little otos, and we're coming up to the 3rd week! Hopefully, not long before I can get my pandas!
Have you decided on your tank residents yet?
Oh well, have a great time window shopping, hope the weather stays good for you :)
Resa
:)
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Luckily I'll be going by bus so practicalities alone should put me off giving into temptation!
The shop I haven't been too yet apparently have all my endlers and red, blue and gold crowntail so seeing them all in person might help me decide!
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ooh...decisions..decisions......
Good Luck ;)
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Thanks Resa! I'm consuming lots of tea and biscuits before I brave the cold later ha. This morning's readings after 1ml dose of ammonia last night:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.5ppm
Nitrate 5 - 20ppm
Unfortunately my tank has quite a lot of bits floating around in it, probably after all the fiddling with the filter yesterday. My pre-filter is covered in loads of bits too. Is it OK to leave this until I need to do another water change??
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Unfortunately my tank has quite a lot of bits floating around in it, probably after all the fiddling with the filter yesterday. My pre-filter is covered in loads of bits too. Is it OK to leave this until I need to do another water change??
Yep - that's what the filter's for. Leave it to collect all the floating bits and then squeeze out the foam in the tank water that you removed at the water change. Don't squeeze too much, you're trying to get rid of the muck, not the beneficial bacteria. Just keep an eye on it to make sure the filter isn't actually blocked and that water is circulating.
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The filter itself is looking good, I can hear the waterfall bit trickling away :-) I'm so relieved. When it wasn't even making any noise I thought that was it - all my bacteria would be dead and I'd have to start all over again!! So glad my boyfriend was there to fix it for me, I'm not really too good with that kind of thing! Once it was making the noises again and I explained how the filter was supposed to work he worked out what the problem was - phew! I'll give the pre-filter a good squeeze on my next water change, hopefully it won't be for a little while though. Hoping my nitrite bacteria get their act together soon too!
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Well unfortunately I couldnt get to the other fish shop since it's almost inaccessible by public transpirt, but I visited the maidenhead aquatics instead and they still have their green endler guppies in stock. Gorgeous gorgeous fish! No bettas at this shop unfortunately but i think I'm leaning towards endlers and shrimp! They also had 5 different shrimp in stock including cherry red, red nose, green and orange! Do you know much about these guys? Having a mix woyld be fun! I'm almost tempted to have a tank full of the green endlers they're so cute!
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They also had 5 different shrimp in stock including cherry red, red nose, green and orange! Do you know much about these guys? Having a mix would be fun!
Having more than one type of shrimp is complicated. Many of the coloured shrimps are of the same species and will hybridise if you keep them together. There is a guide as to the shrimp you can mix and match at UK Shrimp (http://www.ukshrimp.co.uk/freshwater-articles/hybrid-shrimp-and-species-compatability)
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Ooh thanks Steve I didn't know that!
I went by the local Pets at Home as well - they have some really gorgeous endlers, they seemed much more colourful than I remember 'standard' endlers being. Some of them had a black 'base' colour and then oranges, reds, yellows, blues... really pretty things! I'm quite excited now after seeing all the endlers and shrimp. So I'm thinking:
Two 'normal' endlers
Two green endlers
Two blue Japanese endlers
Two yellow Japanese endlers
And eventually some cute little shrimpies.
It'll be quite a colourful little tank! I have two days off next week, I think my tank should be cycled by then so I can finally buy my fish....??? And get my plants!
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There are quite a few colour variants of endler. Pure endlers have been selectively bred to get several colour ways and there are the hybrids with guppies which are what you see in the shops.
Have a look here (http://swampriveraquatics.com/) at Adrian Hernandez's site - he's the chap who's done most of the breeding. Class N = pure endler; class P = endler guppy hybrids; class K = fish that look like endlers but with unknown parentage. Luckily, it's an American site or I would have to have some of them all ;D
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So many pretty colours! It looks like there's a few problems with the site, but the green endlers are more like the ones on the third page or the white peacock endlers because their tales are much more 'guppy'-like (which is why I was so entranced by them!!). They had them the last time I went in so I'm keeping my fingers crossed all the endlers I want are still in stock next week too! It's funny, when you first suggested fish for my tank I wasn't too excited by endlers and was more interested in CPD - but I saw some today and they weren't half as nice as the endlers! I can't wait to get my tank set up. I nearly bought more fake plants but thought my tank might get a bit too full.. they were pretty though ha.
Talking of fake plants... One of my plants broke off of the base - what kind of glue can I use to fix it that won't affect fish?
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Any superglue that is made from cyanoacrylate. Just make sure it is dry before gluing and has completely dried before putting it n the tank.
For things that will stick with it (broken plants won't) you can use silicone sealant, either the expensive stuff sold for use in aquariums, or household sealant that says it does not contain things like anti-mould chemicals. I prefer to play it safe and spend more on the aquarium stuff.
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Thanks Sue :-)
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PM readings:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate between 20 and 40ppm
I've dosed 1.6ml ammonia, waiting for it to mix in
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Things are looking good here.
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate about 80ppm
I'm too tired to do a water change right now (14 hour shift, bleugh), but shall probably do one tomorrow. Dosed 1.7ml ammonia in the mean time.
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I'm not surprised you're tired....that's a really long shift. Good news though on your readings ;D It's looking like you might be able to get your little fishy chums when you're off next week....I'll keep my fingers crossed for you :) :) :)
In the meanwhile, have a good nights sleep.....
Resa
:)
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The increasing nitrate is good, looks like you are getting there. Don't worry about a reading of 80, it's when it gets so high it's off the top of the chart you need to worry about inhibiting the bacteria.
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Thanks Resa! I definitely agree that we need a rota system here :-P not sure I will cope alone with my new fishies!!
This morning, less than 12 hours since dose:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 80+
And thanks Sue - I'm quite relieved about the water change, I hate doing such big water changes without any fishies to benefit! There's a few days now which are going to be awkward to measure... tomorrow I'm in work for 31 hours, and then go back home before I'm heading 'home home' to see my family for the weekend... So I'm going to have to leave my cycle in the hands of my boyfriend!! In this case it might be worth me doing a big water change tonight or on Friday before I go. Tricky! I'm planning to get fish either Tuesday or Wednesday next week.... I hope nothing happens in the mean time!
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This evening nitrite is at 0ppm, so I'm doing a large water change to bring the nitrate down as I'm away for a few days and don't think my boyfriend will be happy if I ask him to do it!!
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My broadband has just decided to let me post!!! We are definitely going to get satellite broadband....it's got to be better than what we have.
Anyway.....Jesnon! 31 HOURS!!!!!! Are you doing a marathon??? :o
Happy water changing, not long now, eh? :) Have a lovely Easter weekend with your family :)
Resa
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Haha it does seem it some times! It sounds worse than it is, I'm 'only' working for 21 of those hours, the other 10 hours are part of a sleep shift ha. I did basically a 100% water change (with warm declorinated water of course!) to bring the nitrate down and added more safe start (there's still some left even after this dose!) and dosed 2ml ammonia (which should come out around 3-4ppm ammonia). I'll be able to test the water early tomorrow, so I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that my nitrite eaters get chomping away!
Yeah Tuesday doesn't seem too far away at all! Thanks Resa - can't wait to go home to see them all!
I'm trying to decide what makes sense... Since I'm off all of Tuesday and Wednesday, but my partner won't be back from work until 5:30. Hmmmmm. I was wondering if it would be worth me getting the plants and two of the fish from one specific shop myself, but I'll have to be on the bus for about 15 minutes and then a bit of a walk. Given the cold weather would this be a really bad idea!? Actually.. I've just realised the shop I wanted to get most of my fish from closes at 5:30 :-( Not sure how to do this now! I did work out I could get a bus there, but there's a lot more faffing in the cold on public transport with that shop. Tricky things! Maybe I need to get a taxi ha. I don't really want to wait any more than I have to haha. I can get two of my fishies from the Maidenhead, two more from Pets at Home (unless people would strongly advise against this??).. it's just the four from the other shop that would be tricky on my own!
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If I was you, I would ask if I could go to part-time at your work....and just do the 10 hour sleep bit ;D
Now, bearing in mind that " I know nothing" (best said in a spanish Manuel accent) I would be concerned about public transport and/or walk with fishies in the temperatures the UK has at the moment. Can anyone give you a lift or is a cab really out of the question? Best thing would probably be if your partner developed some kind of ailment and , oh dear, had to leave work early, say, just before the shop shut ;D ;D ;D
I don't know about any of the fish shops in the UK except when I still lived there, Pets At Home didn't have a terribly good name and I believe they were once featured on some undercover TV programme, of course, that could mean that they have got their act together now. Also, individual branches may vary hugely. I would go by what other folk on the forum say and also your gut feeling on how healthy the fish look and how well they are kept. Also, probably worth thinking about how knowledgable the staff seem.
One of the good things about fishless cycling is that it does give you chance to really think about the fish you want and also to suss out the different shops....that, and you stand a better chance of your little fellas settling in happily....and healthily.
Well, however you end up getting them, I wish you a fun day choosing and finally buying your new little friends....
Happy Easter
Resa
:)
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P.S. Colin or Sue may advise differently, but I would be inclined to get plants in before the fish so that you're not rummaging around in the tank trying to decide how they look best while your fish are waiting. They of course, need to float for a bit in their bags in the tank to adjust to temperature, which would make it extremely difficult to place the plants, plus I would imagine, it would give your substrate and water chance to settle again......just a thought......
Resa
:)
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P.P.S. Just spotted 2 fry in the plants :D
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Yes, get the plants in before the fish. I'd find it tricky enough in an Edge without trying not to kill fish.
There is a way to take fish on public transport in this weather, though it does depend on how you value your appearance. Wear a really thick jacket that's a bit on the big side then put the fish bag inside and fasten up. Ideally, use a jacket with a belt that you can pull really tight so you have your hands free and the bag won't fall out. Your body is at 37 deg, more than enough to keep the water at 25 deg. The downside is that it makes you look rather an odd shape ;D It's what I do if the car park is a long way from the shop, and also while I'm in the car.
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Well assuming they are open easter Monday I can buy my plants and set them up nice and early. I guess the temperature needs to be brought down for plants the same as my fish and the lights need to go on!
Maidenhead sell a fish transportation bag:
http://fishkeeper.co.uk/site/product/maidenhead-aquatics-thermal-fish-transportation-bag-
It's not too expensive and I can use it again when I buy my shrimp and if i move. do you think it would be worth buying? I'm quite concerned about introducing the fish since the hole in the edge is quite small already! Maidenhead are open late so I can go there and pets home quite easily.. it's just the other store I'm concerned about. It could be tricky finishing early because of easter weekend too!
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Hi Jesnon,
Looking at the transporting fish bag, it doesn't seem to me to be much different from most other thermal or picnic cool bags. I have a few like this that I have just bought either at the supermarket or the cheap shops, and the linings are a muted grey/silver. Might be worth a look around to see if you can save yourself a few quid....might be just enough for an extra fishie :D :D :D
Resa
:)
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Good idea resa! I've just remembered I have a picnic rucksack that has a thermal layer... would that be adequate as a fishy transport? I'm thinking if i can get plants in on Monday, then tuesday I can go to maidenhead and potentially pets at home and get my first 4 fishes in :-) then maybe later on I can get my other 4 fishies.
This evening my partner checked nitrite which was at 0ppm and dosed 2ml ammonia again. Looking on track!
Congrats on your ickle fry! And I definitely agree - the sleep part alone would be nice haha
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Hi Jesnon,
I'm sure the thermal rucksack would be fine, and I think getting your plants in and how you like them on Monday is a good idea. You're nearly there now, it is so lovely to finally get fishies...but then you get different worries!
I love mine and I'm so chuffed they have had babies.... probably be moaning about that in a few months time when I have 17,000 of them in my tank ;D
Then again, it was horrible to lose my little oto, and I have been worried about one of my guppies, then he perked up, then I was worried again, then he looked fine again, then when I came home this evening he was very listless and alternated between sitting on the gravel and resting on the weed. I decided I was probably going to have to get some clove oil tomorrow to do the dreaded deed...looked to see how he was doing and he was with the others eating and swimming around. Half an hour later he was at the bottom of the tank dead :(
I am so worried that I will lose all my fish, I'll just have to be vigilant. I must go tomorrow and get the clove oil though, just in case....I don't want any of them to suffer, and you know if any of them get ill, it will be over Easter when everywhere is shut.
Colin says it gets better after 6 months.....I hope so!
Don't forget to let us know what fishies you get when you have them....have a good Easter :)
Resa
:)
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So sorry about your fish resa :-( guppies have a bit of a bad rep if it's any consolation, you probably had a poorly one to start with :-(
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Thanks Jesnon,
Yes, I'm hoping that was the case. Colin said it was unlikely that the bully guppy took the chunk out of the sick ones tail, so I'm wondering if he developed fin rot due to stress from being harassed. Oh well....I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed for the others....
Resa
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Sorry Resa. They just seem to do that for no obvious reason, but it's still poo when it happens.
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Guppies are a problem these days. They used to be hardy once upon a time.
Jesnon - if you buy fish from Pets at Home, be prepared to be questioned. They seem to have a policy that they won't sell you fish unless they can tick the boxes on their sheet. Most of them don't know why they're asking, they've just been told to. For instance, they will quite likely refuse to sell more than six fish to anyone, even someone who has just fishless cycled a 300 litre tank.
Don't tell them you've just finished a fishless cycle. Don't tell them they are the first fish. Tell them your tank is a bit bigger than it really is, maybe 35/40,litres. Tell them you already have 3 fish you are just adding a couple more.
Anything that ticks their boxes ;D
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Hi guys,
Well...you did warn me about guppies and otos. I'm just hoping that will be it now. The bully guppy has started on the other guppy with the same orange tail and markings as the one that died now....perhaps he's like me and doesn't like orange! I am left with a beautiful blue guppy and two pink ones, they look slightly different to the two orange ones in that they don't have quite such long tails. I wonder if anyone has noticed if any particular colour is more prone to bullying or being bullied???
Resa
:)
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Thanks for the warning Sue! The fish I saw looked really bright and healthy at Pets at Home, so I'm hoping they're well looked after there! I haven't seen the 'normal' endlers anywhere else in Bristol so far oddly, which is why I'm resorting to Pets at Home!
I think my tank is officially cycled! :-D
Today:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
I'm off home for a few days so am leaving the readings to my boyfriend... since I'm not expecting him to do any water changes I've just told him to measure nitrite and ammonia and dose if they're both 0 in the evening. Looking forward to Tuesday! If I get plants on Monday do I need to treat the tank like I was getting fish e.g. do a large water change to remove nitrate, turn temp down etc??
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I can't stop thinking about my fish! The best way to get them, which endlers to get etc etc... So to distract me slightly any fishy names on a postcard?!
I really hope my green endlers are in stock! They're the ones I'm currently most excited about, still yet to see the Japanese ones
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I would do the big water change and set the heater to the temp the fish like it before planting the plants. The less messing about once they are in, the better. Since you won't be getting shrimps for a while, I don't think you need to worry about any contamination on the plants.
I should explain that last bit. There is the possiblulty that the plants could have been treated with a chemical to kill snails and snail eggs, which unfortunately kills shimps too. It's mainly on plants imported from the far east. Chucklett, who hasn't been round on the new forum much but posted a lot on the old forum, had a problem with plants killing her shrimps, so from then on she quarantined new plants and ran something called polyfilter to remove the last traces. This is something you need to think about in the future once you have shrimps if you buy new plants. The plants you get on Monday should be OK when you get shrimps as you'll have done a fair few water changes.
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Thanks Sue! 0ppm nitrite again :-D
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Right so.... I have fish!! Wooho!
I bought a moss ball but couldn't find any java fern already attached to wood that looked nice enough to buy, so perhaps one day further down the line I'll invest.
However I'm a little concerned about one of my fish already...
In the bag he was looking a little listless floating in the tank, and now I've added them to the tank. Anyway he was hiding behind my wood in the tank, then swimming normally, then he started 'nose diving'. Now he's hiding again. Are these signs of a gonner?! :-(
All my other fish are happily swimming and exploring the tank
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They can react badly to being caught, bagged and put in the new tank. Can I ask, what did you do to get them from the bag into your tank? And was the shop somewhere that'll have the same water supply as you?
At this stage, I wouldn't worry too much. It could be that this fish is more sensitive to everything involved with being sold. He could recover when he settles in, I've seen it happen. Keep an eye on him and if the worst happens remove him as soon as you find him. Dead fish do horrible things to the ammonia level.
It could be that he was sick in the shop tank. Fish will try to look as though they are not sick as they would be the first target for predators in the wild. And being netted out of the shop tank will scare a sick fish into reaction.
Did the shop worker catch them all easily and carefully? I've heard some horror stories - fish dropped on the floor then put in the bag, fish being squashed against the glass with the net etc. Fish subjected to things like that rarely make it.
You could always get a piece of wood and a java fern separately and attach it yourself. I've just tied a piece to the flowerpot cave ready for when my cycle finishes. I had to soak the pot in bleach (as with everything else in the tank with my last betta in case he did have lymphocystis) which needless to say didn't do the orginal java fern much good. It'll slowly attach itself like ivy to a wall then I'll be able to remove the cotton.
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Oh, brilliant news, Jesnon....at last...fishies!!!
I would get used to worrying about your fishies, I swear mine have deliberately tried to panic me! ;D Since two of mine died I have been paranoid about the others, as soon as I see one stop swimming around I think he is going to pop his clogs!
I'm sure your little fishy is probably just adjusting to his lovely new home :)
My son, (the one who lives in the UK) bought himself some new marine fish today. He SKYPED me so that I could see them....they are beautiful! He said though, that when the shop assistant was getting one out with the net, it jumped and fell to the shop floor!!! Anyway, he said he didn't want that one but they gave it to him, so we'll have to see if the little chap survives his ordeal!
Well, I'm really pleased for you that you have at last got your little bubble blowers. You didn't tell us though, what you decided on and how many you bought......looking forward to some piccies :)
Resa
:)
P.S. My baby platys seem to be doing well, I have seen at least 5. One is nearly a centimetre long and some of the others are only about 2mm :)
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I used a net to add them to the tank from the bag as I'd heard it's bad to put the shop water into my tank... hopefully I wasn't way off there and causing unnecessary trauma to the fish? However he looked quite poorly before this point and all the other fish were happy despite this :-(
I don't remember them being bashed about or anything in the shop, however the shop keeper did accidentally catch a female fish, which he offered me free but I said I didn't want her so he took her out, so I guess he could have knocked the fish during this process?
I do think I'll be opting for adding a plant to one of my existing woods, as I like the wood I have at the minute and the individual plants looked healthier than the ones in the tanks on wood already!
I'll keep an eye out for him and see... I hope he doesn't die - what a traumatic start to fishkeeping!!
Aww the poor new marine fish Resa, hope he survives!!
In the end I went for:
2 Japanese blue and yellow endlers (one of which is the one I strongly suspect will be dead soon :-( )
3 Green endlers (these are my favourites!!)
3 normal endlers
I was a little disappointed by the Japanese endlers, however the two I got were very pretty. Unfortunately the prettiest one is the one I think is very poorly. In good news all my other fish seem to be having a whale of a time!
Is it OK to put my lights on or shall I leave it for tonight? Is it right to not feed them for two days?
I'll get some pictures ASAP!
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Leave the light off till tomorrow, and you can feed them then as well. Don't overfeed - a fish's stomach is about the same size as it's eye, so for flake food you need 8 eye's worth. Live or frozen is different as they contain more water. For a small fish like endlers, I crush the flakes up a bit. They'll need so few flakes that with lots of bits they all get their share rather than one or two scoffing the lot.
I always net my fish out of the bag, it can be tricky when they use round bottomed ones as they slip under the net, and with square bottomed bags as the fish hide in the corners.
If the shop has different water from you, you should add a bit of tank water every 10 min for an hour while the bag floats in the water - this is especially important if you ever get mail order fish or if the species is known to be very delicate. If the shop has the same water supply as you it isn't as important.
If your endlers are the same as mine, you might find pics a bit tricky. All I ever get are multicoloured blurs ;D
Fingers crossed for the sickly one.
And don't forget to keep checking your ammonia and nitrite for a couple of days ;D
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Thanks as always Sue! Yes they were a nightmare to catch, they're so quick and loved hiding in the corners! The water was all the same so shouldn't be a problem :-) hehe will keep an eye on my levels!
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Here's the best i could manage earlier!
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Oooh pretty! A sort of snakeskin look to him ;D
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They're all such gorgeous colours and patterns! He's one of the Japanese ones I think. I need to name them all :-)
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Congratulations on your new fish and that's a good photo, too. More please.
Just a hint.... don't name them just yet, let them settle in first and see if your sickly looking one survives. It's always worse if you lose them and they've got names.
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P.S. My baby platys seem to be doing well, I have seen at least 5. One is nearly a centimetre long and some of the others are only about 2mm :)
That's really good news, Resa.... and you'll have to buy a new tank to keep them in! ;D What's not to like?
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Yeah I definitely know what you mean about the names Colin - I think it'll take me a while to think of some anyway!
Also I think I missed your comment about the platys Resa - congratulations! How are your baby shrimp going Colin?
Unfortunately it looks like the sickly Japanese blue must be dead :-( There's no sign of him anywhere in the tank, and I keep doing a headcount but there's only 7 fish to be found. I just can't see the body anywhere :-( He's not floating near the surface, and I couldn't see him under the wood. I think I'll have to go on a body recovery mission :-( Unless my fish could have eaten him!?
In good news however, all other fish seem to be settling well. They're all SO active! This morning when I first checked them they were all happily swimming together. Then when they caught sight of me they started frantically swimming to the front. Are they hinting they want some food!? I was planning to wait until this evening when my partner is in (still trying to get him more interested in them!) but I might give in soon!
Also my water was:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate somewhere between 5 and 20ppm (same as my tapwater)
The moss ball has rolled itself right to the corner of the tank near my bogwood which is a little annoying, I might have to do some rearranging!
I'm currently charging my batteries before attempting some photos with my proper camera (the other shot was from my phone) so expect more photos soon!
I've just put my lights on too. Unfortunately my plug timer seems to have broken already, I can't turn it to set the time so it won't work :-( Might be popping out later to get a new one, but I'm off both today and tomorrow so it's not too urgent.
How often do I need to supplement flakes for other food? I've only got tropical flakes today, but am tempted to pop out later and buy some loose plants for one of my bits of bogwood (I like the shape of one too much to put a plant on it, but the other is quite well shaped for some plant I think!)
Also should I turn down my filter? It's on one of the highest settings at the minute as I figured the quicker it goes the better and none of the fish seem to be struggling, but I don't want them be worn out!! They all still seem quite confused by the almost mirrored wall effect to the tank - I keep seeing them staring at their own reflections or swimming at themselves!
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Hiya
The shrimplets are doing fine, thanks. They're getting to the stage where I'm having difficulty telling if it's an adult or a baby/teenager type thing.
You definitely need to (errr) fish the fish out - dead fish can poison the water quite quickly and you don't have too much water to dilute the toxins with. When Tarragon the Guppy died he decided that under the bogwood would be the best place to turn up his fishy toes. We wondered for a while whether the others had given him a decent burial it took me so long to find him.
I've got a block of 'tropical mix' frozen bloodworm, daphnia etc which the fish get a small cut-up cube of every Wednesday and Saturday afternoon. Sunday afternoon is shelled pea day and Monday is their fasting day. Six mornings are flake and/or granules, and the other afternoons are freeze-dried daphnia or bloodworms. I've had no complaints! ;D
I'd have your filter on the lowest setting. Endlers came from very slow, almost stagnant, backwaters and they don't produce much waste. Too much thrashing against a current can damage flashy finnage.
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Regarding non-flake food, I find that bloodworm is a bit to big for my endlers. They swim round for ages with one hanging out of their mouths, presumably eating it bit by bit. Daphnia and brine shrimp are much more endler sized (or you could always chop the individual worms in to tiny pieces ;D ) Most fish shops sell frozen cubes, there is much less risk of something nasty being in them compared to those bags with live things swimming round in them. One cube will be way to big for a meal for 7 endlers. Cut a piece off a cube and put it in a tub with a bit of tankwater to defrost. I usually sieve brine shrimp in a cheap tea strainer and wash under the tap to remove the salt as they are grown in salt water. Feed frozen live food like this once or twice a week. There is more nutritional value in the flakes, but the change is good for them.
Dried 'live' food has less nutritional value than frozen. Some fish (especially bettas) can have problems with it swelling up inside them, so when I've used dried live food, I've pre-soaked it before giving it to the fish.
All my fish love peas too ;D
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Fantastic news about your shrimplets Colin! I'm excited to add some shrimps somewhere down the line, though for now my endlers are keeping me entertained! I keep finding myself staring at them all swimming around. Sounds like your fish eat like kings Colin and Sue! I'll definitely have a look for the cubes you described Sue. I imagine Maidenhead are more likely to sell them than Pets at Home.
After I finished my breakfast I went on a body recovery search. Unfortunately my suspicions were confirmed when I found him under one of the pieces of bogwood :-( He was such a beautiful and big endler too, whereas the one I got at the same time is only brightly coloured if the sun hits him in the right place. I gave him a burial at sea :-( Can't believe I've had a fish die on me already :-( So I'm down to the 7 fishies now. I was very surprised by how content them seem, even whilst I was rooting around in the tank for the poor endler they didn't seem bothered! It's getting easier to tell them apart from too, especially the poor lonely Japanese one! I wonder what they all thought to their tankmates demise!
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A tip for you now that you have fish. Start a collection of bits and pieces.
Yogurt/cheesecake pots (individual serving size) make free pots for defrosting food in. Ice cream tubs are useful for when you need something bigger than a yogurt pot. Wash them all carefully under the tap to remove all trace of food.
Toothbrushes are useful for cleaning the corners of tanks and scrubbing impellers - the cheapest you can find.
Those pan scourers that look like a ball of knitted brightly coloured plastic thread are good algae scrapers. Labels from bedding plants are great for stubborn algae - use the flat edge held at a slight angle to the glass. Credit cards work better, but I'm not using mine in a fish tank ;D
If ever you have to medicate, save the dropper that comes with the medication.
A cheap tea strainer is useful for sieving brine shrimp.
Anyone like to add any more?
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Thanks for the list Sue! Sounds like a great idea. Oddly my tank seems to have been algae-free throughout the whole long cycling process, but now the lights are on I guess that will soon change! My fish seem to have found some spots of algae anyway though, like on my heater, the rocks and they look nibbling at the pre-filter! I had a panic yesterday when I was first adding the fish as the pre-filter fell off, I just had images of my poor new fish being sucked up!
On a similar note, how often should I be rinsing the filter media? And how often should I clean the impeller? I'll definitely be investing in some cheap toothbrushes and some more J cloths, as I always have to wipe down the lights and tank around the hood because of condensation. I've rearranged the tank slightly again and turned the filter down to the lowest setting, they all seem happy enough with the set up anyway!
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The fequency of filter cleaning depends on the individual tank. To start with, I suggest you look at the media once a month. If it looks disgusting, clean it in old tank water, and check again after 2 weeks. If it looks OK after a month, check again in another month. After a few months, you'll get to know how long to leave it. Check the impeller whenever you clean the media. You'll know when it needs cleaning as it'll get a layer of slime on it. Whenever the impeller does need cleaning, clean the well at the same time. Cotton buds are ideal for the well, just make sure you don't lose the end inside as they can be tricky to get back out. I have an old pair of tweezers for just that.
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Great to see another water-keeper turned into a fish-keeper. Well done jesnon, and sorry to read about your loss.
Anyone like to add any more?
Baster (basically a giant pipette from the cookware section). Very useful for minor junk cleaning jobs in the tank, such as small waste matter like dead leaves or annoying clumps of poo (I have shrimp, there should be a Shrimpic Games Poo Competition). I use mine to gently blow off waste food particles from leaves too. Quite handy where you don't want to drag out your big vacuum.
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Baster (basically a giant pipette from the cookware section). Very useful for minor junk cleaning jobs in the tank, such as small waste matter like dead leaves or annoying clumps of poo (I have shrimp, there should be a Shrimpic Games Poo Competition). I use mine to gently blow off waste food particles from leaves too. Quite handy where you don't want to drag out your big vacuum.
Now that's a good idea 8) 8)
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Thanks for all the helpful ideas! I gave in earlier and fed my fishies. Only one flake and it seemed more than enough - though the greedy little things are still looking at me expectantly! Loved seeing them in a feeding frenzy!
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You big softy ;D ;D
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There are certain fish that quickly learn where their food is coming from and who feeds them. Endlers are on that list. They will try to convince you they are starving to death 10 seconds after they've stuffed themselves. Don't give in ;D
My gouramis and apistos (which are supposed to feed off the bottom) sit and wait at the top corner with the endlers when I go into the cupboard under the tank where the food is kept.
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Haha I can definitely believe that Sue! Since I've been trying to get some photos of them, extra time I sit next to the tank with my camera they all swim to the front. It's almost like they're posing for the photo, it's just a shame I can't get a good one of them! I couldn't help it Colin, they kept staring at me looking hungry!
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Be strong, Jesnon, be strong. ;D
The only way I found to take photos without the fish all cramming into the top cubic-inch of the tank wanting to be fed was to put my camera on a tripod and activate the self-timer and run away. This sort of meant it was pot-luck as to getting any fish in the photos. I think I must've deleted about 20 for each one I kept.
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Ha I think I might have to try this approach!
My tank is looking all good! So glad I stuck with the fishless cycle :-)
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5 - 20ppm (same as tapwater)
Ph 8.2 (same as always, I hadn't checked it for a while so thought I better see how it was doing!)
I'm making up a shopping list of fishy things to get today. A plant for my wood, some super glue to fix the broken plastic plant (though my tank is looking a little crowded, I figure I might as well try it in the tank and I can always kick it out if it's too busy looking!), an extra thermometer to check temp, some string to tie the plant with, fertiliser for plants, frozen food for fishies, plug timer for the lights to replace the broken one, toothbrush... wow this is sounding like a busy / expensive day!!
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I use sewing cotton to attach my plants. Dark green cotton. Well, I say cotton but it's all polyester now. It can be a bit fiddly tying knots in it, but it's hard to see once it's done.
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Thanks for the tip Sue! Have to admit I'm a little nervous about attaching the plant, I've never been particularly good at fiddly things like that!
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I tried 'proper' cotton to tie the plants on - but that disintegrated after 4 or 5 days. Then I tried polyester thread - but I'm not skilled at that fiddly knot tying. So I resorted to small elastic bands - and they tend to get brittle and snap at about the right time (6-8 weeks) for my Java Ferns to attach themselves to the bog-wood, just requiring me to oik them out with the long tweezers.
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Elastic bands are fine for fish like endlers - their mouths are too small to eat any bits before they were found. But I wouldn't trust my male cockatoo apisto - in this species, the males have big mouths for their size.