Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: chrisp on March 20, 2013, 08:38:49 PM
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So, i started my fishless cycle sunday 17-03-13 its now day 4.
i started off with 4ppm+ of ammonia (kleen off household) and testing using the api master test
i havnt even tested for ammonia in day 2,3 or 4. looking at others previous results and especially sue's fishless cycle which im following, the ammonia doesnt drop for at least a week. i will be putting gravel from a matured tank in the first slot of my 2 filters. about a cup/mug full in each. hopefully this will kick start the process. i will be testing and posting my results daily when ive actually added the gravel.
i hope i get a lot of help because i dont think i can do this on my own lol.
will get some pics up soon ;)
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photo 1
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photo 2
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photo 3
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photo 4
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photo 5
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photo 6 - filter with empty first slot
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Hope you like the pics ;)
i havnt yet got real plants, but in future il be looking to add some. not many tho, as i dont wont it looking over crowded. il buy them the same time as my fish and add the plants first
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Great pics - thanks.
That gravel might be a bit too course for plant roots so you might want to consider planting in small pots and putting the pots in. I've used these (http://www.rainbowfloristsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/Terracotta.html) before and they're very good, plus they age well and can help supply a good surface for beneficial bacteria. It also means you can pull the pots and rearrange your planting easily.
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Thanks for the tip, Will do. Can't quite get the link up cause I'm on my phone, il check it out after on my laptop.
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STRANGE???
its day 5 and ive added gravel from a matured tank into the first slot of my 2 filters at 1:30pm.
I tested for ammonia at 5pm and it give a reading of 0.50+ ??? compared to 4+ on day 1
must be wrong
i dont think the gravel would have done that in that amount of time and i also dont think my ammonia eating bacteria would have developed that quick...
so, im putting it down to me adding the ammonia on day 1(30 drops) and not giving it enough time to mix with the water(150L) before testing. im sure i tested between 5-10mins after i'd added it
do u agree?
and also colinb,
30 drops of ammonia + 150litres of water = 0.50+ppm???
does that sound about right with your average?
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STRANGE???
its day 5 and ive added gravel from a matured tank into the first slot of my 2 filters at 1:30pm.
I tested for ammonia at 5pm and it give a reading of 0.50+ ??? compared to 4+ on day 1
must be wrong
i dont think the gravel would have done that in that amount of time and i also dont think my ammonia eating bacteria would have developed that quick...
so, im putting it down to me adding the ammonia on day 1(30 drops) and not giving it enough time to mix with the water(150L) before testing. im sure i tested between 5-10mins after i'd added it
do u agree?
and also colinb,
30 drops of ammonia + 150litres of water = 0.50+ppm???
does that sound about right with your average?
I agree with what you said about testing 5-10mins aftre adding. I usually waited a couple of hours.
And your 30 drops in 150litres is in the same ball-park as me.
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well thats great to hear
so i think if i add another 20 - 25 drops i think il be roughly at 1ppm
thanks col :)
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day 6
i added another 30 drops of ammonia to my tank yesterday and tested today to make sure it was thoroughly mixed, it give a reading of 2- ppm
im not going to add any more ammonia now untill it starts to go down.
i got a bottle of 'aqua safe start' coming tomoz, hopefully this gets the bacteria spreading and multiplying
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Avg hardness Hardness Classification Degrees Clark Degrees German
52 20.8 Soft 3.64 2.91
South Wales Water
mean anything to anyone? what should i be taking from this?
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day 7
ammonia 2- pmm
ph 7.6 - 7.8
added 125ml of 'tetra safe start' to my tank
still got half a bottle left. Anybody know if it be ok just to throw it all in another 125ml ??????
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Morning Chrisp!
I don't know if it would be ok but I threw 60mls in to my tank when it said it needed 50. I figured it couldn't hurt and as I wasn't going to get any fish until my double zeros were making a regular appearance, I didn't have to worry about keeping any little bubble-blowers happy :)
See what Colin or Sue think though.
Good luck and happy weekend!
Resa
:)
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thanks for the reply resa
thats what im thinking, the more bacteria the better, i dont wont half a bottle going to waste.
I checked the date on the bottle and that was all fine, but 1 thing i did notice was when i unscrewed the lid, the bottle was open. i thought it would have been sealed with a bit of foil u got to peel off or something. but when i googled it, it says it comes unsealed? was this the same as yours? anybody could have opened the bottle and replaced the liquid with something else or even added something else. just thought that was a bit strange thats all.
yes i will wait to see what they say, just encase ;)
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I don't really know anything about SafeStart really, except it's unreliable. It can't hurt, tho'.
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Chris - your water company's stats tell you that you have soft water. Very soft water. Most home test kits use german degrees, and that's the unit you'll find in fish profiles. 3 degrees (OK, 2.91) is very soft. You won't be able to keep Rift Lake cichlids without adding something to the water. You'll find livebearers won't be happy either (sorry!) so I wouldn't get platies or guppies. But on the plus side Amazonian fish will love your water. Lots of tetras, cichlids and cories would suit your water fine.
Your pH may be higher than the figure quoted in fish profiles but hardness is more important than pH to fish. They can adapt to the 'wrong' pH easier than they adapt to the 'wrong' hardness.
If you really want livebearers, you could add remineralisation salt to increase the hardness. Things like this (http://www.aquatics-warehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Tropic_Marin_Re_Mineral_Tropical.html) or this (http://www.kentmarine.com/products/kent-liquid-ro-right.htm) or any other product that is meant for adding to RO water.
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ok thanks for that sue, tetras and cory's it is ;)
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day 8
ammonia 1ppm
ammonia definitely dropping.
im hoping by tomoz it should be 0
when do i test for nitrite?
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You should test for NitrIte and NitAte each time you do a test, espeially as your Ammonia is dropping.
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definitely no nitrite, so that means theres nothing in there bringing the ammonia down just my stupid/in-accurate results
start again.....
nitrite 0
ammonia definitely 1ppm
the api tester says (for ammonia) 8 drops of bottle 1 and 8 drops of bottle 2, then shake for 5 secs and leave for 5mins. my shaking has been the same and im putting the 'wait 5 mins' on a timer from now on
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Day 9
Ammonia 1ppm - no movement
Does that mean the 'safe start' has failed? Or does it kick in at a later stage?
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When did you add it? From what I've read, when it does work it takes several days, so there's hope for it yet. Though if it came by post (you said a couple of posts ago you hoped it would be there 'tomorrow') it could have got too cold considering the waether we've got at the moment.
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yeah, had it saturday morning and added it then. most likely to have been too cold.
day 13 im aiming for now, thats when your ammonia started to drop. i know all cycles are different but hopefully around that time
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Hi Chrisp,
I wouldn't give up hope on your 'Safe Start' yet, I'm convinced adding it to my tank sped things along although it's obviously not an instant thing. I'm guessing it probably depends on how many 'live' bacteria are in your bottle. I suppose if you have only a few survivors then they need time to bed down and multiply enough to do the job. Like I say though, I'm only guessing...I could just be living on planet Resa :D
Resa
:)
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lol,
ok il try to stay positive :)
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day 10
ammonia 1ppm
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Day 11
Ammonia 1ppm
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day 12
ammonia 1ppm
and in other news..... i passed my diving test ;D
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and in other news..... i passed my diving test ;D
Congrats.
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Oh, well done, Chrisp.....now the worlds your jellyfish ;D ;D ;D
Resa
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thanks guys ;)
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Congrats from me too :D
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Thanks sue ;D
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day 13
ammonia 0.50ppm ;) (finally)
day 14
ammonia 0
added ammonia to put it back to 1ppm
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Congrats on the driving test Chris - sorry I was a bit slow to pick up on that, super busy at the mo'.
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You're copying me ;D A drop on day 13 and zero on day 14.
The next stage is the longer one. On average, it takes twice as long to see a drop in nitrite as it does for ammonia. I hit zero ammonia on day 14, ie 13 days after starting the cycle, so I'm expecting 26 days for nitrite to drop, ie day 40. I'm currently on day 21, so another 3-ish weeks yet.
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Thanks col
And yeah sue, I bet it be the exact same all the way :D but I'm not going to do as much water changes, just hope that doesn't affect it too much
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On average, it takes twice as long to see a drop in nitrite as it does for ammonia. I hit zero ammonia on day 14, ie 13 days after starting the cycle, so I'm expecting 26 days for nitrite to drop, ie day 40. I'm currently on day 21, so another 3-ish weeks yet.
In order to start growing nitrite-eaters, we need a source of nitrites in the tank. Now, during a fishless cycle we can't even begin until day 12 or so when the ammonia-eaters have started doing their thing. This is 12 days wasted. What if, in addition to ammonia, we added a source of nitrites on day 1. This would cut down our fishless cycle by 12 days or so.
Is this theory even remotely possible? Or am I just delusional?
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That would be a quicker way to do it. The problem is laying your hands on sodium/potassium/whatever nitrite. Anyone know where to get it from?
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eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_ipg&_from&_armrs=1&_nkw=sodium%20nitrite&_sop=15) of course! :)
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Oooh! You can get anything on ebay!!
Assuming the sodium nitrite on there is anhydrous (a lot of salts have water of crystalisation in the crystals, which throws the calculation out), for every 10 litres of tank water you would need to add 13.7mg sodium nitrite for 1ppm. That is an impossible amount to measure in the home so you'd have to make a concentrated solution and add a tiny amount of that. For example, dissolve 13.7g in 1 litre of tapwater and use 1ml of that solution per 10 litres tank water for 1ppm.
But the majority of items in the link are for curing bacon. They are common salt with a tiny amount of sodium nitrite added.
There is one item that comes up as pure sodium nitrite, this one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sodium-nitrite-100g-cas-no-7632-00-0-reagent-grade-min-assay-98-/281056449673?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET&hash=item4170451489), which says it is reagent grade sodium nitrite. This would be the one to use, if you don't mind spending £13.50 - though the seller does say you can ask for different amounts.
If anyone wants to try this, you would add sodium nitrite on day 1 along with the first dose of ammonia. Since the nitrite eaters are reputed to be slower growing than the ammonia eaters, the ammonia level would proabably drop to zero before the nitrite level did. Then the ammonia eaters would be making nitrite so the chances are you would only have to add the one dose on day 1. But the nitrite eaters would start growing on day 1 rather than have to wait till day 13 as in my cycle.
Edit: in the bacon curing salt, sodium nitrite is E250 (potassium nitrite is E249). They are preservatives.
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Day 15
Ammonia 1ppm
Day 16
Ammonia 1ppm
Day 17
Will test later
- how aint my ammonia going down when it clearly was on day 13. Will test later to see if it has lowered
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Have you checked your pH? If it's dropped to around 6.5 or below, the cycle will stall.
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day 17
ammonia 1ppm
ph 7.4-7.6
even when it did drop on day 13-14 i tested for nitrite and it came to 0
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I can only think there is something about your tapwater that is making your progress slower than mine.
Is your water company better than mine at killing bacteria in the water supply?
Your hardness is about half my level (you gave yours as 2.9 and mine is 7 German degrees). I do know that these bacteria grow best in hard alkaline water. Mine's a bit on the low side, but yours is even lower.
What is the temperature of your tank? The optimum is 30 deg C, that's what mine is at.
If you put some limstone or coral or shell into your tank, it would slowly increase both GH and KH, though it may not do it quickly enough to help your cycle.
PS - did you check your pH?
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How's your cycle going Chrisp?