Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Andy M on May 16, 2013, 06:21:57 PM
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Well my test kit finally here so tested tap water which was .
PH 7.6
Ammonia 0
Nitrates over 40
I have added 0.5 ml ammonia to my tank as per Sue's suggestion and will post my findings once I've tested
Update
Test half hour after adding 0.5ml gave result of 1ppm, possibly even above.
The waiting game begins
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.... and we're off. ;D ;D
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So excited :)
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C'mon Andy, tell us what sort of fish you're hoping to get. It's quiet round here at the mo' so we're looking to you to liven things up. ;D ;D
Are you going with live plants and bogwood, or plastic plants and burping Nemos??? ;)
How about some piccies of your tank?
D'you know how hard your water is? It's always worth knowing as that can affect which fish are suitable for your water. You can find it on your water supplier's web-site.
The more you can get sorted during a fishless the cycle the better when you get your fish - for you and for them.
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Looked up the water. It is very hard water in this area. I have plastic plants but they do look ok. I am not tech savvy enough to put pics on, wouldn't know how to.
Day 1 and first ammonia test was 0.5, lower than after initial addition yesterday which came back over 1 ppm from a 0.5 ml dose.. Did I test too quick yesterday?
Should I add another 0.5 ml to bring it up?
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To put pics in you can either upload them directly..... but they have to be reasonably small. A few kb's at the most.
A better way is if you have a 'picasa' or 'flickr' photo hosting account. You open the piccie you want to post, right click on it and choose 'copy URL'. You then click into your post and click the picture icon from the menu above the post (It's the first one, the one that looks like a stamp of the Mona Lisa) and then you 'Ctrl V' paste your URL that you've just copied. Hit 'post' and Robert's your Dad's brother! ;D
mmmmm - how hard is 'very hard' in ppm? There's quite a bit of controversy about where the limits of very soft, soft, slightly hard, hard and very hard are. This could be quite important as 'very hard' can limit your choice of fish. I'm in South Bucks and the water here is 296ppm, which works out as 16o on the German Hardness scale (296 divided by 17.9) and often taken to be the boundary between hard and very hard . I believe that London tap water is 20o, which is very hard.
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just says 127 mg/l as calcium?
317 mg/l as calcium carbonate which is the highest on the chart
17.794 german degrees
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I'm in South Bucks and the water here is 296ppm, which works out as 16o on the German Hardness scale (296 divided by 17.9) and often taken to be the boundary between hard and very hard . I believe that London tap water is 20o, which is very hard.
I live in North London and my water is 278ppm (15.5o german). This is an average but even so...
just says 127 mg/l as calcium?
317 mg/l as calcium carbonate which is the highest on the chart
It's the total hardness figure you want, ie the latter one. 317 is 17.8o german! (And I thought my water was hard!!)
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Re the ammonia level - wait till tomorrow and test again. If it's still 0.5, add another dose the same size as the first one. If the first one really has dosed to 0.5ppm, adding the same again should give 1ppm. At this early stage it doesn't matter if the ammonia level is a bit low, there's still too much for the odd few bacteria in the water suppply.
I don't know if you have read that long rambling 12 pages of my cycle, but I did an experiment with the ammonia test and light source. At the time I started my cycle it was getting dark quite early so I had to do the evening test under electric lights. Despite everything I've read about fluorescent lights making the test tube look greener than it really is, my fluorescent strip light (kitchen) and energy saving bulbs (almost everywhere else) made it look yellower than it actually was, ie it looked like less ammonia. Under an old fashioned light bulb (we still have one in the downstairs loo) and a halogen bulb (dining room) the colour of the tube was the same as in daylight. So if you test with the lights on, make sure what kind of bulb you are comparing colours under.
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Thanks Sue, I have been going out in the back garden to look at it and todays is definitely different to yesterday
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It is light late enough at this time of year ;D
Since there is a possibility that yesterday's reading might be inaccurate due to not having mixed properly yet, tomorrow's reading should help you decide. If it's still 0.5 tomorrow, then yesterday was inaccurate. But if it is lower than today's reading it shows your ammonia eaters are growing. In that case, wait until it drops to zero then add some more ammonia.
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Well hope it is lower but from what I've read on here I expect it was my initial reading being inaccurate but will see tomorrow teatime ;D
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To put pics in you can either upload them directly..... but they have to be reasonably small. A few kb's at the most.
A better way is if you have a 'picasa' or 'flickr' photo hosting account. You open the piccie you want to post, right click on it and choose 'copy URL'. You then click into your post and click the picture icon from the menu above the post (It's the first one, the one that looks like a stamp of the Mona Lisa) and then you 'Ctrl V' paste your URL that you've just copied. Hit 'post' and Robert's your Dad's brother
Downloaded picasa and tried to get pic on but no joy, options not coming up to copy URL
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Andy, I must be getting old :-[ I really do know how to check, I just forgot ;D
The obvious way to tell if your ammonia is dropping because you have some ammonia eaters growing is to check your nitrite level (nitrIte, not nitrAte). If you do have some ammonia eaters, that 0.5ppm ammonia will have been converted to just over 1ppm nitrite.
If the nitrite level is zero, the drop in ammonia is not the bacteria eating it, it's something else.
If you do have nitrite, you do have some ammonia eaters.
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Thanks Sue, all will be revealed after tea tonight although i expect it to have been a false reading
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Day 2
Ammonia think is 0.5 again. maybe slightly lower. colours so similar
Nitrite is 5ppm
Help !!!
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Hellooooo :-\
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You have some nitrite. This means the first stage is under way. You need to measure the ammonia daily and when it reaches zero, top it up again to 1ppm. It will be a couple of weeks or so until the second stage starts.
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Thanks Steve, are the nitrites liable to stay at 5ppm or above for now?
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Your nitrite will stay high till the nitrite eaters start to grow. The test kits can only show the highest colour on the charts. Anything higher will just show as the highest colour. If your nitrite test says 5.0 it might be exactly 5.0 or it could be a bit higher, or a lot higher.
As Steve said, measure both every 24 hours now, and add more ammonia when the ammonia reading reaches zero. Add ammonia every time it reaches zero at the 24 hour reading. Add the same amount that you added the first time. When your nitrite finally reaches zero, ask what to do next ;D
It took 16 days for my nitrite to fall. The nitrite eaters are the more delicate of the two bacteria so the stage where they are growing is the one that varies most in different people's cycles.
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I am surprised that ammonia has started to drop so quickly but it must have done for me to have a nitrite reading yeah?
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That's right.
If you'd had just a tiny trace of nitrite, that could have been in your water supply, but not 5+ ppm - that much has to come from the ammonia you added, you must have some ammonia eaters growing.
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That's right.
If you'd had just a tiny trace of nitrite, that could have been in your water supply, but not 5+ ppm - that much has to come from the ammonia you added, you must have some ammonia eaters growing.
Happy days. I wonder if the nutrafin cycle i put in ten days ago has helped at all
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It might have done. There are some bottled bacteria products that do grow the ammonia eaters quite quickly. The problem is that it's harder to bottle the nitrite eaters and them still be viable by the time they get to your tank. Just because the ammonia eaters grew quickly, it doesn't necessarily mean the nitrite eaters will too. You may find the Cycle helps with them, but don't be worried if it takes longer for the nitrite eaters.
At least the first stage has been short even if the second stage takes longer ;D
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I am not worried. you are only a forum post away ;D
Will see what ammonia is tonight, you never know, may be zero and another 0.5 ml going in :)
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Looks like you're off to a great start already!
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Here's hoping jesnon
Day 2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 5 ppm
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Looking good ;D
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Excellent news!
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Day 3
Ammonia I am calling 0.25, its not the yellow for zero but also not the same shade as 0.25 on the test card
Nitrite 5 ppm or more
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Personally I can't tell the difference between the 0 and 0.25 on those colour charts! Looks like your cycle is going well so far :-) Your ammonia stage has been super quick!
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It has surprised me, like I said in earlier post, maybe the Nutrafin cycle helped. Just wondering if I will see yellow, heard of some that don't
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The zero on the API test is a funny one. I've read so many people saying they've never had the zero colour even when the tank has been running for years.
I would be inclined to wait till tomorrow's test and see if it looks the zero colour then. If it's the same colour as today, then that's likely to be what your zero colour looks like.
[Thought - any bottled water in your house? You could try testing that to see the zero colour. Not tapwater though as UK legislation does allow up 0.5ppm and yours might have a trace]
If the test shows the same colour tomorrow, or even the yellow of zero, add some ammonia, the same as the first dose you added.
Memory like a sieve - what did you say your water was, hard or soft? if it's soft, test your pH daily as well.
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It is very hard water Sue, 17.8 German degrees. Will buy a bottle of water tomorrow and do just that. Its not easy to differentiate the zero and 0.25 colours
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Don't rush out and buy a bottle of water if you don't drink it - though it's probably the safest way to check what the zero colour actually looks like. I ran out of ammonia tester during my cycle (it was over half used when I started) and the new and old colour charts were not the same. This lack of consistency does make things tricky :-\
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Well will see what tomorrow brings. If it were the same colour again would it harm to add another 0.5 ml? ( my initial dose)
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I would definitely add the ammonia if it's the same colour again.
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Thanks Sue, will do that
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Have you had any thoughts on potential fish for your water / tanksize? All that research can make the cycle seem a little less slow ha
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Well want a community tank but hardy fish to begin with. Any suggestions?
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Day 4
Tried my tank water against some bottled water and got same colour for both so must be a zero for ammonia so added another 0.5 ml.
Will test in an hour to make sure its up to 1 ppm
Nitrite 5 ppm or more
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It sounds as though everything is going the way it should. At least you know what to look for when you test ammonia now ;D
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I do, should have kept it in the tube :D
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Day 5
Ammonia 1 ppm
Nitrite 5 ppm or more
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You just need to wait for this batch of ammonia to drop to zero, then add some more. That will be the pattern for the next couple of weeks or so. One day, you will see your nitrite dropping, honestly ;D
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You just need to wait for this batch of ammonia to drop to zero, then add some more. That will be the pattern for the next couple of weeks or so. One day, you will see your nitrite dropping, honestly ;D
Here's hoping :)
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Day 6
Ammonia 0.5 ppm, I think
Nitrite 5ppm +
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Your ammonia eaters are growing nicely ;D. Your ammonia should be zero tomorrow; add another dose then. At least you know what colour to look for for zero now :D
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I actually look forward to doing the tests, sad but true :D
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You think that's sad....wait 'till you find yourself poo-watching ??? There are folk on here with a definite obsession...they know who they are :-X
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You think that's sad....wait 'till you find yourself poo-watching ??? There are folk on here with a definite obsession...they know who they are :-X
;D
In my defence I thought my fish were poorly! :P
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OK....I believe you ;D
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In my defence I thought my fish were poorly! :P
Shouldn't that be poo-rly! ;) Seriously, do you all think we could possibly go a whole day without mentioning poo? Please!
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See...I told you, they know who they are ;D ;D ;D
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Day 7
Ammonia 0.5 still
Nitrite 5ppm plus
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Day 8
Ammonia not budging off 0.5
Nitrite 5 ppm plus
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I had that problem. If it doesn't budge for a few days add more ammonia again anyway
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Have you checked your NitrAte level? Your original post says it was 40+ and your pH was 7.6. If you do a full check at least once a week (pH, Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte) you will have a better idea of any *trends* that may appear, such as a sudden drop in pH which can cause the cycle to stall. That happened to me.
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Oo - someone say poo?? ;D
Well want a community tank but hardy fish to begin with. Any suggestions?
Cherry Barbs. They're hardy, peaceful and lovely. They'll be fine in your water and 3 males and 3 females are great together. The males go deep cherry red and flare their fins at each other (MrsB calls it 'willy waving') and the Barbie Girls go around together checking their make-up and doing their nails and posing in front of the boys.
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Have you checked your NitrAte level? Your original post says it was 40+ and your pH was 7.6. If you do a full check at least once a week (pH, Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte) you will have a better idea of any *trends* that may appear, such as a sudden drop in pH which can cause the cycle to stall. That happened to me.
Will check all later but very hard water here so doubt its a ph drop
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I agree that a pH drop is unlikely with hard water but theoretically it is possible.
Something you could try - I did frequent water changes once I was getting nitrite. I freely admit that huge water changes in a 25 litre tank are easy, and they would be time consuming in a larger tank. But you could try a biggish water change, say 50%, and see if that helps. If nothing else, you'll get practice using a siphon tube before you have any fish in there ;D
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Day 9
Ph 8.2
Ammonia still 0.5 ppm
Nitrite 5 ppm plus
Nitrate somewhere between 40 and 80ppm
Patience dwindling :(
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If you don't fancy the water change, add some more ammonia at your usual time and see what happens tomorrow. If you still have the 'dose amount plus 0.5' tomorrow, you'll know something has happened to your ammonia eaters.
It is possible the high nitrite is affecting things.
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If you don't fancy the water change, add some more ammonia at your usual time and see what happens tomorrow. If you still have the 'dose amount plus 0.5' tomorrow, you'll know something has happened to your ammonia eaters.
It is possible the high nitrite is affecting things.
Now i'm confused
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Based on your Nitrate (which I assume is the same as your original test), I would definitely go for a partial water change as Sue suggests. It can't hurt. However, if the Nitrate has moved up from your original testing, then you must begin water changes to keep the levels under control. Sue experienced the stall, and it was indeed odd, despite having good pH. Mine crashed the pH because I'm in a very soft water area so very little buffering available.
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Silly question but how does a water change help?
And what are ammonia eaters?
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Sorry :(
Your ammonia is 0.5 at the moment. If you add you usual dose at the usual time, you'll then have however many ppm you add plus the 0.5ppm you have at the moment, ie dose amount plus 0.5.
If it is still reading that 24 hours after adding this dose of ammonia, it means that none has been eaten. You were seeing the ammonia level drop after adding a dose so if there is no drop tomorrow, something is interferring with your ammonia eaters. But if it does drop lower than the ppm you add plus the 0.5 already there you'll know your ammonia eaters are fine.
Adding a dose of ammonia today will show whether or not your ammonia eaters are still working. If it turns out they are not, we'll have to try and decide what to do. With a pH of 8.2 you have ruled out a pH crash. Your nitrAte is not particularly high, but your nitrIte might well be. All you know about that is that it's somewhere above 5. Another test you could try is add about 1ml of tank water to the test tube and top up to the line with tap water, then test for nitrite. Since the tube holds 5ml to the line, add water to a fifth of the way up to the line. If the reading is then somewhere on the chart, multiply by 5 to get the tank reading. If it's still at the highest colour, then your tank has at least 25ppm nitrite.
If it does turn out that you have a very high nitrite, that could be inhibiting the ammonia eaters (although it usually only affects the nitrite eaters). A water change would get the nitrite level down.
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Tried 1 part tank water to 4 part tap water and got 0.25 ppm nitrite, making no sense whatsoever
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That does sound very odd. 0.25 should equate to a tank nitrite of 1.25 which is well down the colour chart :-\
Grasping at straws time -
Are you washing the tubes very well after use, then drying them? I use a paper hanky twisted round till it is the right shape to fit in the tube.
How are you transferring the water from the tank to the tube? I use a pipette which I rinse well afterwards. I have recently heard that some people dip the tube into the tank and scoop the water into it - it never occurred to me to do that, probably as a result of having studied chemistry at university.
How are you getting the reagents into the tube? Holding the bottles vertically above the the tube or at an angle?
You are using both ammonia bottles for the ammonia test and just the one nitrite bottle for the nitrite test?
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I only ever dip my tube straight in to the tank water and scoop some up, it never occurred to me to use a pipette......probably as a result of me not having studied chemistry at uni ;D ;D
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washing tubes and drying with kitchen towel, holding bottles vertically, using a 5 ml syringe to get water, just topping up after a 50% water change,
Enjoyed using syphon ;D
Oh and added 10ml of nutrafin aquaplus yeah?
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I only ever dip my tube straight in to the tank water and scoop some up, it never occurred to me to use a pipette......probably as a result of me not having studied chemistry at uni ;D ;D
The danger comes if there are some chemicals still left in the tube, even a trace........
You don't need to use a pipette (mine are all saved from old meds) just something known to be uncontaminated to scoop the water out then pour into the tube.
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So water changed, my next step is?
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Measure your ammonia and nitrite - it'll be interesting to see what the test kit makes of the nitrite level after the water change.
Then wait till your usual time and add the same dose of ammonia you have been adding and see what the readings are tomorrow.
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Post 50% water change
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite Maybe somewhere between 2 and 5. So hard to tell difference in the two shades
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Your ammonia at 0.25 is to be expected - 50% water changed, ammonia 50% of what it was.
The nitrite reading suggests it was between 4 and 10 before the water change (and I do agree about distinguishing the colour differences).
See tomorrow if the water change has helped or not.
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So I will dose my 0.5ml later?
Thanks for your help Sue. Was starting to lose all interest
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Yes, dose than ammonia at the same time of day you previously dosed it.
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Day 10
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite either between 2 and 5 or above 5 ppm
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Aha, your ammonia eaters are still there ;D The water change does seem to have helped. I've seen other people report that a water change does help when a cycle seems to be stuck - when it's not a pH crash that is.
So it's just a matter of patience now ;D
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Well hopefully will be zero tomorrow, ( or as close to zero colour as I get)
Is it likely to stall again?
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I'm not sure. I've read of people who have stalled cycles where the pH has not dropped, like you, and water changes seem to be the answer - but whether these stalled cycles are a one-off or repeats I don't know. But if it does happen again, you know what to do next time.
I suppose it could have been the nitrite level, and that's now lower. Perhaps :-\
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Well not got my zero I was hoping for
0.25 ammonia again and 2 to 5 nitrite
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Is that a definite 0.25 or the colour that could well be zero in disguise?
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I would say 0.25, can't even remember my zero in disguise colour now
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You were having problems deciding if your ammonia was 0.25 or zero then:
Day 4
Tried my tank water against some bottled water and got same colour for both so must be a zero for ammonia
I would assume it's now zero and add some ammonia.
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Ok sue, will do that, would I be able to keep a tube of tested bottled water to constantly compare against or will it change colour if kept over a period of time?
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Unfortunately, it does change colour over time. And certainly with nitrite, the longer you leave it before washing, the more deposit there is left on the glass. I discovered if I washed up straight away, the tube came clean with just water. On the occassions I left it maybe a couple of hours before washing up, when I dried the nitrite tube after washing, there was blue on the paper hanky. The same may happen with ammonia, yellow being harder to see than blue.
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OOOH better wash it soon as ik get home
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Day 11
Ammonia at 1 ppm
Nitrite 5?
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Did you add ammonia yesterday, and this is the 24 hour reading? If yes, did you add ammonia to give 1ppm or more?
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Did you add ammonia yesterday, and this is the 24 hour reading? If yes, did you add ammonia to give 1ppm or more?
I did yes, only been doing 24 hour readings, just put my usual 0.5 ml in yesterday
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So the ammonia reading hasn't dropped since you added the last dose 24 hours ago. Hmmmm :-\ I don't know what to suggest. Unless you fancy doing another water change, that seemed to help last time. If you do decide to, make it a big one.
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I could do but if i'm constantly doing water changes I may as well do a fish in cycle hadn't I?
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There is that.
I must admit that I did a water change every time nitrite got to the top colour on the scale, but I was only dealing with 25 litres which does make things a lot easier.
For now then, see what happens tomorrow.
There must be some reason your cycle seems to be sticking like this. High nitrite is only supposed to affect the nitrite eaters not the ammonia eaters.
I'll have to see if I can think of something. Your pH is still OK?
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Not bothered testing with it being very hard water
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Day 12
Thought I would test again this morning
Ph 8.2
Ammonia, around 0.5
If it comes to another water change , how much should I change and should I add some more Nutrafin cycle?
And then do I dose with my normal amount of ammonia or more?
When I filled tank I used luke warm water from tap. Is this ok?
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If your ammonia has dropped, good. Especially as it's only 12-ish hours since you added the last dose. Stick to the usual dose of ammonia until your nitrite has dropped. If you increase the amount you add now, you'll just get a much higher level of nitrite. This is why the current thinking is to add a low dose until the nitrite eaters start to grow, then increase it when there are enough nitrite eaters to cope with the lower dose.
If you have some Nutrafin Cycle, you may as well use it, it won't do any harm. It is unlikley to help with the nitrite eaters but it may help with the ammonia eaters. It is difficult to make these bottled bacteria with nitrite eaters that are still viable when it reaches your tank. Ammonia eaters are more likely to survive in the bottle.
As for a water change, I'd do as big as you can manage. But don't add any ammonia or Cycle till your usual time. Nutrafin Cycle - some of these products contain ammonia but I don't know if this is one of them. (They work by getting you to do a fishless cycle without realising that's what you are doing). It might be worth adding a dose, then testing for ammonia to check before adding any from your ammonia bottle.
If you have a combi boiler, using hot tap water is the easiest way to get the water warm. It's when you have a header tank in the attic feeding water to a hot water cyclinder that there is the potential for problems. It's not copper getting in the water as most people think, it's whatever is lurking in the header tank. Dead rats etc are not unknown. That's why I heat water in a kettle for my water changes - we've had several wasps' nests in the attic and the header tank usually has dead wasps in afterwards, possibly wasps covered with insecticide. That was the main downside to all the water changes I did during my cycle. It took 1.5 litres boiling water (one kettleful) plus 3.5 litres icy cold tapwater in a bucket to get a temp of 30o. As I was doing 95% water changes, that was 5 kettles' worth of boiling water to make 25 litres.
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Thanks Sue. Only thing is it isn't 12 hours since my last dose, it is 36 as my ammonia hadn't dropped at all yesterday, so do I still do a water change and add cycle or see what reading I get later today?
Sorry for the constant questioning but without yours, and others help on here I think I would have given it up as a bad job by now
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Sorry, not really awake till at least 10 o'clock. Forgot you weren't adding ammonia yesterday :-[
Wait until this evening and see what your ammonia is. Add the Cycle then.
I've had fish for something like 17 years. I've learned things bit by bit over those years, first from library books then the internet. You are having the whole lot thrown at you in one big load. It's a lot to take in all at once.
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Ok. Will test again around six o clock, expecting no change but will then add cycle
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Sorry for the constant questioning but without yours, and others help on here I think I would have given it up as a bad job by now
Questions are good, keep them coming. Getting through the cycle is the most difficult portion, which is why all but a tiny fraction of Fish Shops do not tell the truth about it. If an LFS were to spell out exactly what was required, most people would simply not bother buying a tank; they are commercial, they must sell stuff to survive. However, it *is* worth the pain, I absolutely guarantee it.
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Sorry for the constant questioning but without yours, and others help on here I think I would have given it up as a bad job by now
Questions are good, keep them coming. Getting through the cycle is the most difficult portion, which is why all but a tiny fraction of Fish Shops do not tell the truth about it. If an LFS were to spell out exactly what was required, most people would simply not bother buying a tank; they are commercial, they must sell stuff to survive. However, it *is* worth the pain, I absolutely guarantee it.
Thanks for that, will keep telling myself that
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Don't worry Andy we've all been there! When my tank was stuck in the nitrite stage i was really starting to lose patience and think i should give up... But trust me it's worth it! I'm so glad i stuck out the cycle and touch wood things have been pretty simple and straightforward since with some happy fish!
If you do get desperate both me and Resa added terra safe start and it might have helped things along a bit (though it's impossible to tell really!).
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At last! Our internet has been down all day, and I have been getting withdrawals not being able to get on to 'Thinkfish' ;) I don't know how long it will last for, we have had some incredible downpours for the last 2 or 3 days. The water is rushing down our drive and I could probably make some money by doing white water rafting ;D ;D Yesterday, just to make things even crazier, we had a massive hail storm.....mad!
Anyway Andy, don't give up! It really is worth the effort...and frustration! I too, thought I'd never get there sometimes (but then, I'm not known for my patience ;) )but my little happy band of bubble-blowers are all settled now. It feels like I have always had them :)
As Jesnon said, we both tipped the 'Tetra Safe Start' in to our tanks, and whilst we have no real idea how much this may or may not have helped, I'm fairly convinced that it made a huge difference to the time it took for mine. I would have to look back through my posts to tell you how long, but it was very short compared to what I had been expecting.
This particular filter seeder seems to have the best results of all of them.....so you decide, but good luck and don't lose heart. Use the time to really plan your set-up, I changed my mind a couple of times on what fish I was getting, (apart from the pandas ;)), also wished I'd gone straight for sand as opposed to gravel and actually prefer some other plants to what I have.
So, have a look at some of the aquascapes on the net, and relish choosing what you want your tank to look like without rushing it.
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Its ready and waiting, nothing special, few plastic plants and ornaments. Just needs fish at some point
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I forgot all about mentioning Tetra Safe Start :-[
Quick history lesson.
The research on the filter bacteria was done by an American called Tim Hovanec. He identified the species of nitrite eaters that lives in our filters - before his work it was thought to be a different species, one which grows in the wild but not in aquariums. He invented a bottled bacteria called Bio Spira, which was marketed by Marineland, the company he worked for. This worked, provided it was kept refrigerated all the way from the factory to your tank. Bottles that were allowed to warm up anywhere along the supply chain failed to work. There was also a UK equivalent called Bactinettes which you might find mention of. It is no longer made.
Tim Havonec left Marineland and set up his own company making a product called Dr Tim's One and Only, which also works, again provided it is treated properly along the supply chain. It is very hard to find this in the UK.
Marineland was taken over by Tetra. The story I've heard is that Tim Havonec patented Bio Spira under his own name (though I thought all companies insist it is done in the company name :-\ ) so Marineland and then Tetra couldn't use his forumulation once he left the company. Tetra has developed it's own bottled bacteria based on Tim Havonec's work, though not identical for patent reasons - Safe Start. It does not need to be refrigerated but it is damaged if it gets too warm (or even too cold), thought to be the reason that it does fail to work on many occassions. But it is the brand that works most often.
If you decide to get some, look for the bottle with the longest shelf life!
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Oops....yes, forgot to mention get the longest expiry date :-[
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I forgot all about mentioning Tetra Safe Start :-[
Quick history lesson.
The research on the filter bacteria was done by an American called Tim Hovanec. He identified the species of nitrite eaters that lives in our filters - before his work it was thought to be a different species, one which grows in the wild but not in aquariums. He invented a bottled bacteria called Bio Spira, which was marketed by Marineland, the company he worked for. This worked, provided it was kept refrigerated all the way from the factory to your tank. Bottles that were allowed to warm up anywhere along the supply chain failed to work. There was also a UK equivalent called Bactinettes which you might find mention of. It is no longer made.
Tim Havonec left Marineland and set up his own company making a product called Dr Tim's One and Only, which also works, again provided it is treated properly along the supply chain. It is very hard to find this in the UK.
Marineland was taken over by Tetra. The story I've heard is that Tim Havonec patented Bio Spira under his own name (though I thought all companies insist it is done in the company name :-\ ) so Marineland and then Tetra couldn't use his forumulation once he left the company. Tetra has developed it's own bottled bacteria based on Tim Havonec's work, though not identical for patent reasons - Safe Start. It does not need to be refrigerated but it is damaged if it gets too warm (or even too cold), thought to be the reason that it does fail to work on many occassions. But it is the brand that works most often.
If you decide to get some, look for the bottle with the longest shelf life!
Is Nutrafin cycle not the same?
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Day 12
This evening, ammonia 0.25 ish
Nitrite, off the scale, deepest shade I have seen yet!!
Got some safe start, says add 5ml for every 6ltrs water. That'll be the 100ml bottle gone in one swoop whereas Nutrafin cycle is 10ml for every 40lts water.
Guess they're not the same
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Good news about the ammonia reading!
All these bottled bacteria products are different. Some even used the wrong species of bacteria (the one out in the wild rather than the tank one) but I think most of them have now changed to the right species.
The filter bacteria can survive in a bottle but in a sort of hibernation. When they are put in a tank they have almost no measureable activity. And they can live for only a year maximum in a bottle. Despite the claims of some products, there are no chemical additives that can extend the life, only refrigeration can, and how many of these bottles are in the fridge in a shop? Freezing the bottle and temps of 45oC can kill the bacteria, both of which can occur during transport and warehouse storage.
Nutrafin Cycle is a product that have not read any reports of it working. Tetra Safe Start - I have read reports of it working, but not instantly. It helps shorten a cycle when it works.
I have just been reading an article by Tim Havonec. He reckons that you need to get the nitrite level well below 5 before adding his bacteria product. Not doing this is one reason for the product not working. It's probably the same for Safe Start.
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Ooooops, I've already put it in now
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I wouldn't worry. It might just slow things a bit.
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Oh no, slow enough already
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But hopefully it will be faster than it has been, just slower than what it could have been if you'd been able to do the water change.
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I could have done one but don't particularly want to be doing them all through the cycle
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Day 13
Ammonia zero, another 0.5 ml added
Nitrite, off the scale
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The nitrite is behaving quite typically. This stage is the longest one.
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So carry on as normal?
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Yes.
Sorry, my laptop gets turned off ~7.45 which is why I seem so slow at replying.
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I'll make sure my questions are before then ;D
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Hang in there, Andy - it's most definitely worth it. A tank of happy fish is a wonderful thing!
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Day 14
Ammonia, zero again, got me doubting that I put 0.5 ml in last night cos didn't retest afterwards
Nitrite, off the chart
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retested an hour after adding 0.5 ml and was 0.5 ppm so added another 0.5 ml.
Hope I did right
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Yes, you did right :D
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Phew!! See what tomorrow brings
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Day 15
Ammonia zero or as close as I get to it, added 0.5ml ammonia, if last night anything to go by will have to add another 0.5 later
Nitrite, off the scale
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Your readings are showing your ammonia eaters are growing well. Now all you have to do is wait.......
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I will but i'm not the most patient person :D
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Tested again after an hour, 0.5 ppm so added another 0.5 ml ammonia. Seems to be taking 1ml now to get back up to 1ppm. When I started it was only taking 0.5ml
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I found that too.
The further I got into the cycle, the same amount of ammonia added gave a lower reading after allowing it to mix. I put it down to the test kits not being 100% accurate (they can't be at the price we pay, it needs lab equipment costing £1000s to be really accurate) and possibly the ammonia eaters using some while the dose was mixing in.
Whatever it takes to get 1ppm now, carry on adding that amount even if it starts to give less than 1ppm after another few days.
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I will but i'm not the most patient person :D
Ah, grasshopper, learn you will. ;) ;D
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Day 16
Ammonia zero
Nitrite off the scale, Will add ammonia again but wondering if a part water change first would be beneficial as far as nitrites are concerned. What do you think?
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A water change would probably help.
I've been reading comment on another forum by someone who reckons we're all doing it wrong. His opinion is that once the ammonia drops to zero we shouldn't add any more ammonia until nitrite also drops to zero ???. He says that the ammonia eaters won't starve. I need to be convinced of that but maybe I should have said to stick to the 0.5ml you had been adding so there isn't as much nitrite made. It's getting the bacteria started that takes the time. Once you have enough to get rid of even just 0.5ppm it only takes a few days of increasing ammonia doses to grow more. Under optimum conditions the bacteria can double in number every 24 hours (though maybe not quite that fast in a typical tank). It's just so slow at the beginning because there are so very few of them escape being poisoned by the water company's chlorine. Doubling hardly any in 24 hours still leaves not very many at the end of a week.
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Oh I've already added 1ml now to get back up to 1ppm. So if its zero again tomorrow shall I do 50% water change before adding ammonia? And how much ammonia now you've said that?
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I'd go back to adding the 0.5ml. Even if that doesn't give quite as many ppm at least it won't make as much nitrite. Once your nitrite starts falling then increase the amount of ammonia you add a small amount at a time. And yes, do a 50% water change.
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Day 17
Ammonia zero
Nitrite off the scale so done a 50% water change, added 0.5ml ammonia so will retest and update in an hour
Update
Ammonia 0.5ppm
Nitrite still at least 5. That nitrite chart is awful
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The problem with nitrite is that every 1ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7ppm nitrite so it goes off the top of the chart pretty quickly. I was dosing 1ppm daily and doing a 95% water change every other day at this point in my cycle to try and keep the nitrite reading somewhere on the chart. Easy with just 25 litres though.
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It will come down though won't it?
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Yes it will. The nitrite eaters will multiply until there are enough of them to eat all the nitrite being made by the ammonia eaters. It's just that the nitrite eaters grow slower than the ammonia eaters, and they can't even start to grow until the ammonia eaters start making nitrite. The average you see quoted is that it takes twice as long for your nitrite level to fall as it did for your ammonia eaters.
You added some bottled bacteria. These often contain a viable supply of ammonia eaters but the nitrite eaters are often not viable. This makes the first stage go faster than if you didn't use it but the second stage isn't speeded up and it seems very slow as the first stage was speeded up.
Compare my cycle. It took 14 days for my ammonia reading to drop to zero. It took 22 days for my nitrite reading to drop to zero. (Not quite twice as long in my case). Your ammonia dropped faster than mine, probably because the bottled bacteria did have some ammonia eaters.
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I will see how it is later and may do another water change in a day or two
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Day 18
Ammonia zero, didn't test nitrite. Just did a 50% water change and then added 0.5ml ammonia. Will retest shortly
Update
Ammonia 0.5 ppm
Nitrite zero !! Is this the start of things moving or purely down to two 50% water changes in consecutive days?
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Day 19
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero again, Will add 0.5% ammonia or should I go for more?
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Great stuff! I'd start increasing the dose but Sue and others can advise better. Don't increase the dose too quickly though!
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Thanks jesnon, Just been reading Sue's " how to cycle" thread again so actually added 1ml of ammonia
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Told you you'd get there ;D
Slow and steady is the way. Increase a bit, wait till you get zero nitrite again then add a bit more, and continue that way till you get to the ppm dose you are aiming for.
The original fishless cycling method said the filter should be able to clear 5ppm ammonia to zero ammonoa and zero nitrite 12 hours after adding the dose. Over the years, as more research has been done, it has been realised that you don't need quite that many bacteria. With the colour steps on the API tester, it makes sense to aim for 4ppm. That will probably be more than you need, but it is better to have too many bacteria than not enough. With not enough it means daily water changes to stop the newly bought fish being poisoned. With too many bacteria, all that will happen is that some of them will die off till there's just the right number for the waste made by the fish.
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Thanks Sue, So I will aim for 4ppm, is that when I start testing every 12 hours?
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Yes. So long as you are clearing 1ppm, then 2ppm, 3ppm and finally 4ppm in 24 hours you only need to test every 24 hours. Once you reach your target dose, you'll be dosing that once every 24 hours and testing at both 12 and 24 hours. Once you get double zeros at 12 hours, wait a few days to make sure you don't get a blip. Then do your huge water change and get fish ;D By huge I mean at least 80% as you need to get rid of the nitrate that has been made. And you should be good to get about three quarters of your planned fish - leave any delicate ones for at least a couple of months for the tank to mature.
A couple of definitions for you.
A cycled tank is one where the filter has grown enough bacteria to deal with tha ammonia from a tank full of fish.
A mature tank is one that has grown all the other micro-organisms that live in a tank, typically a tank that has been running 6 months.
We concentrate on fgrowing two species of bacetria as lack of them can kill fish. But there are many other things that need to grow which stabilise a tank. Some fish, eg neon tetras, can die for no apparent reason in a newly cycled tank. They seem to need something else besides just a cycled filter.
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So neon tetras off the list to start with then, any suggestions in that area?
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What fish do you plan for this tank? If you give us a list we can look it over.
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Day 20
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero
Upped dose to 2ml which hopefully will get 2ppm
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What fish do you plan for this tank? If you give us a list we can look it over.
Well only wanting peaceful fish but also want hardy. Have looked at tetras (red eye and rummy nose, danios, dwarf gourami and also the panda corys that I think it Resa has.
Don't want anything that's going to become too big as I only have a 90 litre tank
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Danios are very hardy fish but there a couple of things to think about with them. They really need a longish tank because although they are small they are very fast swimmers. Is your 90 long and shallow or tall and short? My Rio 125 is the same length as most 100 litre tanks, for instance, but it's taller, while my 50 litre has the same footprint as my old 60 litre, it's just not as tall. And zebra danios are subtropical so you would need to choose tankmates that prefer the temp around 23oC rather than 25. Panda cories would be quite happy at that temp, as would things like white cloud mountain minnows (comes in grey and gold body colours, I always liked the gold variety)
Dwarf gouramis are a bit hit and miss. They are often infected by dwarf gourami iridivirus (DGIV) which is incurable. It only affects dwarf gouramis though, so every other species in the tank would be OK if you got a dwarf and it was one that had the disease. Either 1 male or 1 male 2 females as males can get nasty if they want to spawn and have been known to kill females. Or look at honey gouramis instead - they are fine as a m/f pair.
Rummies and panda cories fall under the same category as neons regarding tank maturity. Red eyes would be OK straight away.
Other small fish that would be OK straight away include most tetras except neons and rummies; glowlight danios (Danio choprai or choprae, I've seen both spellings. Not to be confused with glofish, the GM zebra danios), harlequin rasboras and their smaller look-alikes Trigonostigma espei (espe's rasbora, lambchop rasbora, slender harlequin in the database on here) and T. hengeli (hengel's rasbora, copper rasbora)
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Rummy nose tetras are tight schoolers and you need several (8 -12) of them in a long tank to allow them to 'do their thing'. Cherry barbs are tough, adaptable and interesting, as well as easily capable of thriving in a smaller tank. 3 males and 3 females are great together with the males turing deep cherry red and flaring their fins at each other and the barbie girls.
5-band barbs do well in a smaller tank - I have nine and they'll shoal loosely and nose around the substrate, but they're not very bright and colourful.
I'd go for honey gourami rather than dwarf gourami - they're much more tough.
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Hi Andy,
Definitely avoid guppies if mine are anything to go by...they just suddenly die, it seems, for no good reason. :( I can't recommend panda cories enough....they are so cute, and with such lovely characters! They are busy, bumbly little creatures and I lose hours just watching them. The pepper cories (corydora paleatus) are also beautiful and have the same lively habits. The colour and sparkle of mine have massively increased since I got them, so don't be put off if they appear a little dull in the shop. they positively bloom when they have got settled in their new home :) I am so taken by them both that I intend to increase their numbers even more when I get my bigger tank.
I also have a colisa lalia, a dwarf gourami, called Flockhart. He is a very vibrant neon blue. The pics I am going to try and post again later do not do any of my fish justice as far as their colours go, but everyone who sees my tank always asks what he is as he so striking. I would also like to get him a couple of lady friends when he moves in to his new swanky mansion ;D
Anyway, have fun deciding!
Resa
:)
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Day 21
Ammonia zero
nitrite 0.25 so did a 50% water change and dosed 3ml ammonia to 3ppm
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Danios are very hardy fish but there a couple of things to think about with them. They really need a longish tank because although they are small they are very fast swimmers. Is your 90 long and shallow or tall and short? My Rio 125 is the same length as most 100 litre tanks, for instance, but it's taller, while my 50 litre has the same footprint as my old 60 litre, it's just not as tall. And zebra danios are subtropical so you would need to choose tankmates that prefer the temp around 23oC rather than 25. Panda cories would be quite happy at that temp, as would things like white cloud mountain minnows (comes in grey and gold body colours, I always liked the gold variety)
Dwarf gouramis are a bit hit and miss. They are often infected by dwarf gourami iridivirus (DGIV) which is incurable. It only affects dwarf gouramis though, so every other species in the tank would be OK if you got a dwarf and it was one that had the disease. Either 1 male or 1 male 2 females as males can get nasty if they want to spawn and have been known to kill females. Or look at honey gouramis instead - they are fine as a m/f pair.
Rummies and panda cories fall under the same category as neons regarding tank maturity. Red eyes would be OK straight away.
Other small fish that would be OK straight away include most tetras except neons and rummies; glowlight danios (Danio choprai or choprae, I've seen both spellings. Not to be confused with glofish, the GM zebra danios), harlequin rasboras and their smaller look-alikes Trigonostigma espei (espe's rasbora, lambchop rasbora, slender harlequin in the database on here) and T. hengeli (hengel's rasbora, copper rasbora)
My roma 90 is 60 cm long x 30 cm deep x 45cm tall
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So it's a short tall tank. It has the same footprint as my 50 litre, but it's taller - my 50 litre is 60w x 30d x 30h cm.
The length is a bit short for danios and other fish that dash around. 90cm (3 ft) is the usual recommended tank length, though some people say 4ft. But there are plenty of other fish that are suitable.
I like small fish. I need small fish in my 50 litre, but I also have small fish in my 125 litre. My small fish are:
ember tetras - small and a gorgeous shade of deep orange.
green neon tetras - smaller than neons but still blue despite the name. But like neons, need a mature tank.
honey gouramis - yellow variety, 1m 2f
pygmy cories - a cory small enough for a 60 x 30 footprint (my 50 litre)
male endlers - tiny bright jewels, never stop moving
My largest fish are:
dwarf chain loach (in my 125 litre, 80 x 35 footprint)
Cockatoo cichlids 1m 1f (also in the 125)
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Ah right so will have to see what fish are suitable, prefer the smaller ones. Choice is lessening
Day 22
Ammonia zero
Nitrite looks between 2 and 5 so did a 50% water change and dosed 3ml to 3 ppm again
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Day 23
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 0.25 so done a further 50% water change and dosed another 3ml to achieve 3ppm
My water meter has been spinning this last few days :)
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That's where I have the advantage - we aren't on a meter!
Your cycle looks like it's behaving nicely and it won't be long before it's finished.
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Just waiting till I can dose the 4ppm and wait for the 12 hour zeros, soon hopefully
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Day 24
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero, dosed 4ml ammonia to 4ppm ( yet to retest)
Should I check in the morning now although it won't quite be 12 hours before I go to work ?
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I would start checking tomorrow morning. It doesn't matter if it's not exactly 12 hours.
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Thank you Sue, will do that
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Day 25
First 12 hour test
Ammonia down to 1ppm
Nitrite around 5ppm. Will see what tonight brings
24 hour test
Ammonia zero, nitrite zero. Another 4ml ammonia added to 4ppm. Hoping for double zeros in the morning
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Day 26
12 hour test
Ammonia 0.5 ppm
Nitrite around 5 again
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Your cycle seems to be doing great, not long before the fishy finish line!
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I found the ammonia was zero at the 12 hour test once I started testing then, probably because it had all the time while the nitrite level was still high to grow enough ammonia eaters to remove all the ammonia quickly. But it took a few days for the nitrite to drop to zero at 12 hours, and I only went up from 1 to 2ppm ammonia (25 litres with 1 betta is understocked so I didn't need any more)
Just checking my records, I find that my nitrite never did get quite to zero at 12 hours. I got a betta when it reached 0.25. I did keep an eye on both readings for several days after I got the betta and never saw a trace of either of them.
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So is it a case of just waiting? Will it get to zero? I was hoping to get fish over the weekend
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It may not drop all the way to zero, mine didn't. But as long as the 24 hour nitrite is dropping to zero and the 12 hour is getting low you should be OK for fish. Just monitor both ammonia and zero twice a day as you are at the moment and you'll soon spot if there is either of them showing up. I've recently come across references to 3ppm being all you need. If 3ppm is all you need and your 4ppm isn't quite dropping to zero nitrite in 12 hours, you should be fine.
Don't forget to do a big water change shortly before you get the fish, especially if there is still a trace of nitrite in the water after 12 hours. Ideally, do the water change then go out shopping. Have you tested your nitrate? You'll probably find it's quite high now that you have nitrite eaters - that is why you do the big water change, to get rid of the nitrate.
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Not tested my nitrate for a while so will do that tonight. The 12 hour reading for nitrite is around 5 the couple of times i've tested it so it'd need to be alot lower than that wouldn,t it
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Yes, nitrite does really need to be lower than 5ppm. Is it still reaching zero in 24 hours? If it is, I'd say wait till the 12 hour reading gets below 1.
Under optimum conditions (though our tanks are rarely spot-on optimum) these bacteria can double in 24 hours. It is just a waiting game now.
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It was down to zero last night which was 24 hours after my first 4ppm dose so i'm hoping it will be zero again tonight
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Day 26
24 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero so dosed to 4ppm again
Nitrate I can only describe as a deep red colour, certainly not like anything on the chart
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That probably means nitrate is very high. Every 1ppm ammonia you add is converted to 2.7ppm nitrite and on to 3.6ppm nitrate. So every 4ppm dose of ammonia you've been adding ends up as 14.4ppm nitrate.
To be honest, something that has always made me think. Water changes are usually done once a week. One guideline to stocking level is that the nitrate reading just before a water change should be 20ppm or less above the tap water level. That is, if like me you have a tap nitrate of 5, the just-before-a-water-change nitrate reading should be no higher than 25ppm. 5.5ppm ammonia is converted into 20ppm nitrate, so that means a fully stocked tank should make no more than 5.5ppm ammonia in a week. It is no wonder that current thinking is heading in the direction of cycling with less ammonia that the traditional 5ppm doses.
I think I would be inclined to drop your next ammonia dose to 3ppm. That'll still grow you more than enough bacteria. 3ppm a day = 21ppm a week which will be converted to 75ppm nitrate in a week. That is way above what a fully stocked tank should produce.
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So as and when the nitrate is down, how does it stay down? Purely water changes?
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Just tested tap water nitrates and even that is at least 40ppm, looks probably more so not much chance of keeping tank nitrates low
Just checked on water company site, nitrates just over 40 for my area
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Removing nitrate, and replenishing things that get used up, is the main purpose of water changes. There are all sorts of other things we can't measure (eg fish hormones) that also build up and water changes remove them too. The nitrate level is something we can measure and it can be used as an indicator for all the other things as well.
With a tap level that high, 40ppm is the lowest you'll be able to get your tank nitrate by water changes alone. This is not a problem for the vast majority of fish. They can tolerate levels up to 100 with no problems. But there are some nitrate sensitive species. Reasearching before buying should flag up if any fish you want would suffer. Planting the tank heavily (and I mean more than just a dozen plants) can help lower nitrate but to get really low you would need to use something like RO water (water that has had everything dissolved in it removed). This is not a step to take lightly, and I would only recommend it once you get further into fish keeping and want to keep some of those nitrate sensitive fish.
The UK allows up to 50ppm in drinking water.
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I have only got plastic plants, not real so will just have to put up with the nitrate level it seems
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Day 27
12 hour test
Ammonia around 2 ppm
nitrite 5 or over
Seems to have gone backwards
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It might be worth adding real plants too at some point down the line.
Hmm that does seem odd. I'm assuming nitrate 5 means nitrite? I remember you said your nitrate was really really high, and someone suggested (I think Steve?) whilst I was cycling that high nitrate levels can sometimes stall a cycle, so it may be worth doing a large water change to bring the nitrate down and see if that improves things. Wait until your 24 hour results though, as it still does seem things are being eaten by then!
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Oh, how frustrating for you, Andy. Don't give up though....you're nearly there! I think Jesnons right about the high nitrates may have caused a problem...Sue will know for sure though.
Have you got a particular reason for not having live plants? My nitrate levels are also on the high side, but I have a fair bit of planting (live), and they really help keep the nitrates low (along with small water changes) which is very important for me, as I love the panda corys and they are sensitive to high nitrates. Also, the plants keep your tank changing appearance as they grow, but if you find they grow too much, you can just nip bits off. They also give the fish something to hide in, investigate or just nibble at.
Anyway, I hope you soon get there...it won't be long before you'll be out fishy shopping ;) Have you decided on what your first ones will be yet?
Resa
:)
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It might be worth adding real plants too at some point down the line.
Hmm that does seem odd. I'm assuming nitrate 5 means nitrite? I remember you said your nitrate was really really high, and someone suggested (I think Steve?) whilst I was cycling that high nitrate levels can sometimes stall a cycle, so it may be worth doing a large water change to bring the nitrate down and see if that improves things. Wait until your 24 hour results though, as it still does seem things are being eaten by then!
Yes i did mean nitrites, sorry, as for live plants i just didnt want to go down that route. I've got enough to be going on with once i get fish ( if ever) without having to look after plants too
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Oh, how frustrating for you, Andy. Don't give up though....you're nearly there! I think Jesnons right about the high nitrates may have caused a problem...Sue will know for sure though.
Have you got a particular reason for not having live plants? My nitrate levels are also on the high side, but I have a fair bit of planting (live), and they really help keep the nitrates low (along with small water changes) which is very important for me, as I love the panda corys and they are sensitive to high nitrates. Also, the plants keep your tank changing appearance as they grow, but if you find they grow too much, you can just nip bits off. They also give the fish something to hide in, investigate or just nibble at.
Anyway, I hope you soon get there...it won't be long before you'll be out fishy shopping ;) Have you decided on what your first ones will be yet?Resa
:)
Think my choices are limited so may be cherry barbs, glowlight danio, honey gourami and some kind of cory
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It could be your high nitrate inhibiting the nitrite eaters somewhat. You've grown enough to remove the nitrite from 4ppm ammonia in 24 hours, but seem to be stuck growing enough to get rid of it in 12 hours.
I've looked back through the thread and this seems to be the summary:
Day 20 - 24 hours: am zero, nit zero. Dosed to 2ppm
Day 21 - 24 hours: am zero, nit .25. Dosed to 3ppm
Day 22 - 24 hours: am zero, nit 2 to 5. Dosed to 3ppm
Day 24 - 24 hours: am zero, nit zero. Dosed to 4ppm
Day 25 - 12 hours: am 1, nit 5. 24 hours: am zero, nit zero. Dosed to 4ppm
Day 26 - 12 hours: am 0.5, nit 5. 24 hours: am zero, nit zero. Dosed to 4ppm
Day 27 - 12 hours: am 2, nit 5+. Not reached 24 hours yet.
It does look as though both have stopped dropping as much as they were yesterday at 12 hours.
3 possiblilties.
You accidentally dosed more than 4ppm ammonia last night (did you check the ppm afterwards? I didn't because I just added the same amount I had been adding)
The high nitrate is inhibiting the bacteria.
Your pH has crashed - easily checked.
It's not likely to be the pH with your hard water but it is worth checking just to eliminate it as a cause.
See what the readings are this evening. They have been zero at the 24 hour tests for the last three days so if they are not zero this evening, either you did add too much ammonia or something's affecting the bacteria.
If they are above zero, don't add any more ammonia and see what happens tomorrow. If the readings are still the same tomorrow morning, I would do a water change then tomorrow evening just dose to 3ppm. And I would also stick to 3ppm until the cycle has finished. That amount will grow you enough bacteria. And it won't make as much nitrate as 4ppm.
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I didn't check afterwards Sue, As 1ml got me 1ppm and 2ml 2ppm etc, I just assumed 4ml would get me to 4ppm. Having looked at an ammonia calculator on another forum, it would appear my tank is 81 lts and not the 90 i thought it was so maybe i have been overdosing from day 1
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Day 27
24 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero
Ph 8
Did a 50% water change then added 3ml ammonia to hopefully get me 3ppm and no more
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At least the readings were zero at 24 hours and your pH is fine. That's such a quick test to do it is always worth checking to eliminate it as a problem.
I didn't check the ammonia after each addition, just occasionally to make sure I really was adding what I thought I was adding.
Tank volumes are often less than the manufacturers state, and then the decor displaces water too. My 125 litre does hold 125 litres to the mark when empty but my 54 litre holds that volume filled right to the brim which you can do or you risk it overflowing. That's why I call it a 50 litre tank as there's a half inch gap between the water and the rim.
But given the test kits can't be that accurate with the jumps in ppm between the colours, adding the right dose for 90 litres to an 81 litre tank won't be that far out.
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Ah well that's something. See what tomorrow morning brings although may be slightly more than 12 hours cos i'm off work but if I wake early I will test at usual time 6 o clock
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Day 28
12 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrate 0.25
I assume the water change yesterday helped and I don't need to do another one yet?
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Looking good!
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Assuming that's nitrite at 0.25 (the API nitrate test can't measure that low), it's definitely looking good. You won't need another water change for cycling purposes but you'll probabaly need another one just before you get your fish as the nitrate level will be creeping back up.
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Assuming that's nitrite at 0.25 (the API nitrate test can't measure that low), it's definitely looking good. You won't need another water change for cycling purposes but you'll probabaly need another one just before you get your fish as the nitrate level will be creeping back up.
Ooops I did it again, yes I did mean nitrite, it was early in the morning ;D
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Day 28
24 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero, Added 3 ml ammonia
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That water change seems to have done the trick ;D
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Hopefully so, fingers crossed for double zeros in the morning
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Day 29
Ammonia 0.5 ppm
Nitrite between 2 and 5
So frustrating, thinking of either getting fish and hoping for best or just giving up
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Just tested again (14 hours) and ammonia zero, nitrite looks 1 or 2
17 hours and nitrite is almost zero, its not the sky blue zero colour but also not got the hint of purple that represents 0.25ppm
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It was that hint of purple stage at 12 hours that I gave in and got fish ;D Though having said that, I cycled to 2ppm and the community creator says that 1 betta in a 25 litre tank is only 20% stocked so I'd probably got way more bacteria than I needed even with that hint of purple.
In your shoes, I'd either wait a few more days and see if you can get to that hint of pruple or even blue in 12 hours, or there is another option. Get some fish but not all you want. You'll have enough bacteria for half your planned stocking with no problems. It will mean you'll have to continue getting more fish like for a fish-in cycle but at least you'd have some in the tank. If you do decide to do this, get around half of the fish you want to get, wait a couple of weeks then get more; a third of what you'll already have. Then a couple of weeks later, another third-of-what-you-already-have and so on till you've got all your fish.
Whichever you decide keep an eye on the ammonia & nitrite levels after you get fish till you are sure the filter is coping, and also every time you add more fish
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I will see what its at the next couple of days after 12 hours, ( I may not dose ammonia till around 8 o clock tonight so I don't have to be up at 6 for the 12 hour test). If it gets double zeros then all well and good, if not I will part stock maybe on Tuesday. If I part stock will I need regular water changes like I would with a "fish in" cycle?
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You're so close now definitely don't give up! Sounds like youll have a tank of fish in no time :-)
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If you part stock and your ammonia and nitrite stay at zero at your twice a day tests (I would carry on with that for a few days just to make sure) then you only need do weekly water changes. But if either or both show up in any test then you would need to do a water change.
You aren't in the same situation as fish-in cycling as you already have a lot of bacteria, just not quite enough to process 3ppm ammonia in 12 hours. But there should be plenty to process the ammonia from half a tank of fish. There may even be enough for a full load of fish but I don't want to say go and get all your fish and you report back in a couple of days that you have ammonia and/or nitrite. Half a load with no am & nit is better than a full load with some am & nit. And although you won't have all your fish, at least you'll have some.
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That's true. I will see how I go the next couple of days and maybe get some fish on Tuesday if all is ok
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Day 29
24 hour test
Ammonia zero
nitrite zero
Added 3ml ammonia to 3ppm, also got java fern in now to hopefully help with nitrates
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Fingers crossed your 12 hour readings drop now too
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Been hoping that the last 3 days, took 17 hours last night/ this morning
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I know it seems to be going on forever but your cycle has actually been quite quick so far and you will get there! Looking forward to seeing pics of your tank and fish soon!
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Day 30
12 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 1 or 2 ppm
Did a 50/50 test with tank/tap water and got 0.25 so in theory my tank should be 0.5 ppm
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I would go with a half load of fish. You have enough bacteria for that number of fish and it'll put fish in your tank. A few fish are better than none at all. It was a lot easier for me as while I had an empty cycling tank I also had two other tanks full of fish.
Gpoing from this list:
think I will be going for honey gouramis......... golden headed purple harlequin ...... Galaxy rasboras, cherry barbs, lemon tetra and some kind of cory.
I would look at the harlequins and cherry barbs as first fish. And if you change you mind back to lemon tetras, those as well. Leave the cories a while as some species can be a bit sensitive (not quite as bad a neons but along those lines). Gouramis and galaxies as the second and third batches of fish. So for example - shoals of harlies and cherries first. In 2 weeks, assuming your ammonia and nitrite stay at zero, a pair of honey gouramis. Two weeks after that, a shoal of galaxies (or celestial pearl danios as their correct name is for the time being; it keeps geting changed). Then in a couple of months, the cories.
Word of warning I'd missed before - your water might be a tad on the hard, alkaline side for galaxies. Is there anyhting else that you like that could replace them in your list?
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Thanks Sue, I will leave it one more day I think and probably get 5 cherry barb and five harlequin. As for the galaxies, I will have a couple of weeks at least to find an alternative. So I will be ok for ten fish yeah?
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Ten will be fine. 6 each would be better though. It is thought that shoaling fish lose count at 6. With 6 or more, they consider themselves in a shoal whereas with 5 or less they can get stressed as the number is small enough for them to realise they aren't in a shoal. In the wild, shoals number in the hundreds.
If you want a small colourful fish that would do well at high pH and hardness, I can thoroughly recommend endlers, though the fish in shops are all endler guppy hybrids rather than pure endler. Most Maidenhead Aquatics stock them and they do come in a variety of colour patterns. Males only though - females are larger, pale grey and have fry every 4 weeks.
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I'd also agree with Sue that endlers are great little fish :-)
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Well six it shall be then, wonder why the shops sell them singularly or in fives?
I may go for the endler option too then if I can get all males (remember jesnon saying shop found it hard to sex them). Are they hardy enough? I thought they were from the guppy family? Does it need to be 6 of these too?
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I've always wondered why so many shops sell them at so-much for 5 rather than 6. If you had a big enough tank, or only a few species, the way to go would be 10 of each, but that does mean only half the species you could have with 6 each.
Endlers are a lot hardier than guppies as they have not yet been subjected to the same inbreeding. And being closely related it means they do not suffer problems with being cross bred with guppies. If you go for fish around the inch mark, if they are coloured they are males. Females are always plain grey as are fry of both sexes, but males do develop colour quite small, smaller than the fish in shops. Just choose endlers that are colourful and they'll be males.
I have 8 male endlers in my 125 litre. They don't seem to realise there are other fish in the tank. They stay as a group (maybe the odd one will wander off for a while) and though they do chase each other it's only for a few seconds then they chase another one. And they display to each other which can look a bit odd the first time you see it (fins spread, body curved and sort of twitching).
Endlers are not shoaling fish but they do seem to like the company of others. 5 or 6 would be fine.
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Thanks Sue, think I will go for 5 endlers, 6 harlequin to start off. Then add 2 honey gourami, then will have to decide on either getting cherry barbs or waiting a while longer and getting neon tetra and corys
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That sounds like a good plan :D
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Just been to take a look at the endlers in MA. Lovely fish, was expecting them to be priced same as guppies, how wrong was I? :o . Also saw some hengeli harlequin that looked nice
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:) Sounds great Andy, they are really lovely colourful things - i love mine and they're the only fish I can keep with my small tank! If you want some slightly different colours for your endlers have a look around some of your local shops as they may sell different varieties. In my tank I managed to get yellow tiger endlers, black bar,Japanese blue and pure endler. They are quite colourful generally and you may find your LFS of choice stocks different kinds, but i got a varied batch by going to three different shops in the end!
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Been to 4 shops today but only MA had them in so if I do get them it will have to be from there. Another shop ten mins from MA were a lot cheaper for other fish but had nowhere near the choice
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Day 30
24 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero
Dosed 3ml ammonia to get 3 ppm
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How exciting! Fishies this week, do you reckon? ;)
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Hopefully a few endlers tomorrow resa, and also possibly some harlequins
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Day 31
12 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 0.5 ppm, not quite there
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Almost but not quite. With those 12 hour readings you should be OK for fish. Leave the cories a while though as some species prefer a more mature tank.
The hengels rasboras you saw are related to harlequins. Care is the same. The main differences are the shape of the black patch and they are a bit smaller than harlies. Trigonostigma hengeli (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trigonostigma-hengeli/) grow to 25 - 30mm and Trigonostigma heteromorpha (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trigonostigma-heteromorpha/) grow to 35 - 45mm. Use slender rasbora (T. espei) in the community creator. They are a third species the same size as hengels rasboras.
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I am just a bit wary, I don't want to harm any fish even though like you say, I should be ok. I have only got tomorrow left off work so if I don't get any by then, it will be next tuesday
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Day 31
24 hour test
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero
Added another 3 ml to get 3 ppm
Was told this was an ideal starter fish, any thoughts?
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pristella-maxillaris/
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When people talk about fish being good starter fish, they usually mean it is a fish that can survive a fish-in cycle. With that kind of cycle, some fish are more likely to survive than others, though they will most likely live a shorter than maximum life span and be more likely to get diseases after the cycle. For fishless cycling, fish just fall into 2 categories - those that need a mature tank and those that don't. With fish-in, there are three: those that will most likely survive, those that may lose a few of them, and those that will die within hours.
Those Pristellas are considered hardy fish, ie will survive a fish-in cycle, so they are not on the need a mature tank list.
I just tend to forget about them as I'm not a fan of grey fish with coloured fins ;D Look a the fish in my tanks - bright orange-red ember tetras, bright blue and red green neons ('green' is not accurate), multicoloured male endlers, yellow honey gouramis, cockatoo apistos (OK the male is grey with bright orange fins but the female is bright yellow). That gives you some idea of my tastes in fish ;D Well, I do also have black and white dwarf chain loaches, and grey black and white pygmy cories but you can't have all the fish brightly coloured.
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Day 32
12 hour test (13 actually)
Ammonia zero
Nitrite 0.25
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When people talk about fish being good starter fish, they usually mean it is a fish that can survive a fish-in cycle. With that kind of cycle, some fish are more likely to survive than others, though they will most likely live a shorter than maximum life span and be more likely to get diseases after the cycle. For fishless cycling, fish just fall into 2 categories - those that need a mature tank and those that don't. With fish-in, there are three: those that will most likely survive, those that may lose a few of them, and those that will die within hours.
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That's what I thought even though I made it clear that I had almost completed my fishless cycle, yet he recommended platys which goes against all I have been told
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Ah well, if it was a fish shop that said that, they don't usually believe in or understand fishless cycling. He has probably been taught that first fish should be hardy ones. Full stop. He's probably never been told that such things as fishless cycles exist, he just has his check list which says "if the customer is getting his first fish, recommend fsh from this list".
The vast majority of customers go into a shop, say to the workers I have a new tank, I want some fish, what do you recommend. They don't often get customers who have done a fishless cycle, or have read up on fish and know what kinds are on their shortlist. I've overheard some interesting converstions in shops over the years. Like the couple who were pointing at tanks saying
'can we have some of those'
'no not with the fish you already have'
'What about those'
'no they'll get eaten too'
'OK, what fish can we have then'
'These will go with the fish you already have, and these and these, which of them do you prefer'.
That is the kind of customer shops usually have to cope with.
Or the couple who said to the worker - 'we got some fish from here a couple of months ago and they were this big. Now they're this big - why have they got bigger, you never said they would'
[Have I mentioned that the fish in shops are juveniles and that's why you should always check what size they'll grow to - that's why the community creator is useful]
Oh, and after all that waffle, platies are actually 'hardy' fish in the fish-in cycling sense. They like hard alkaline water. But they do grow quite big which will reduce the numbers of other fish you could keep with them.
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I am in two minds as to whether to do a water change and go get a few endlers and half a dozen harlequins or to wait till next Tuesday when I am next off work and able to go get some
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Done the massive water change, nitrates still at least 40ppm (shouldn't be any more really given a full water change) Temp around 25 deg, off fish hunting
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Woop-woop!!
Remember.... we want piccies. ;D
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6 harlys and 5 cherry barb purchased. Couldn't get endlers as they are not for sale till Saturday
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Ooh great stuff - glad you hear you finally have fish! Looking forward to some pictures too :-D
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Good news indeed - your patience has been rewarded.
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Yippee...fishies at last! :D Now I suppose you'll be poo-watching too ;D ;D
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Yippee...fishies at last! :D Now I suppose you'll be poo-watching too ;D ;D
Think i'll skip that one :)
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Steve and I are leading the revolt against the revolting ;D ;D Welcome aboard! ;D ;D ;D
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But poo watching is a good thing, it's another way of keeping an eye on their health, and it freaks the kids out when the other fish eat it. ;D
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;D What have I started!?