Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Sanjo on January 17, 2015, 12:17:37 PM
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3rd Jan started the cycle with 3ppm ammonia
4th Jan tank bloomed
6th Jan Ammonia 1.2
Nitrite 1.5
9th Jan Ammonia 0.8
Nitrite 1.5
11th Jan Ammonia .8
Nitrite .5 (added around 2 ppm ammonia to bring total to around 2.8 ppm)
15th Jan Ammonia 1mg
Nitrite 0.1 (added 2ppm totalling 3ppm)
16th Jan Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite .25
My nitrites appear to be all over the place. I know the ammonia hasn't dropped drastically but it does appear to have gone down.
Tomorrow I was intending to add more to bring it back to 3ppm ? Should I
As usual all advice gratefully received. I WILL get my head round this at some stage!!!
Thanks all
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Some questions first as my memory isn't what it was.
Do you have any live plants in the tank?
What is the nitrate measurement, and the nitrate measurement of your tap water? [If you have a liquid nitrate tester, don't forget to shake the bottle the instructions say till your arm falls off!]
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Thanks Sue.
Yes I have Bacopa and Alternanthera which have been in since the start and Elodea which went in on 12th Jan.
Tap reading of nitrite is 0
Re-tested nitrate from the tank again at the same time and that is showing at 0.25
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The test I want is nirtAte not nitrite. There is usually some in tapwater, even mine which is very low. It is the end product of the nitrogen cycle, ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate. If there are any nitrite eating bacteria in the tank they will turn nitrite into nitrate and the nitrate level will build up. But you have to subtract the tap nitrate from the tank nitrate to see if any nitrate is being made by bacteria. Nitrate is the one that goes up in whole numbers not 0.something. The API liquid tester goes up 0, 5, 10, 20, 40 etc. If the tester measures something like 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1.0 etc, that is nitrite.
Plants prefer ammonia as food. In a heavily planted tank, the plants will remove the ammonia before the bacteria get a look in. In these tanks, nitrite is not formed, and nitrate is usually lower than tapwater as none is being made and the plants use the nitrate that comes from the tap. In your sized tank, it is possible the plants are taking up the ammonia. This is why I asked for the nitrate reading, if that isn't being formed the ammonia must be going somewhere else, the only obvious place is into the plants.
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Idiot (Me not you!)
Read that wrong. So NitrAtes on the tester reads 10mg.
I have checked our Essex and Suffolk water website and they give OFFICIAL STANDARD 50 then another column which says mgNO3/l
Does that make sense?
ps. Have checked our bill and there is nothing on it apart from how much we pay. Not comprehensive like yours
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That 'official standard' is just the maximum allowed by law. In theory, they should also give the level in the water, usually a max, a min and a mean value. They are supposed to test several times a year.
Have you been using this page (https://www.eswater.co.uk/your-home/your-account/your-area.aspx?returnUrl=%2fyour-home%2fyour-account%2fin-your-area%2fwater-quality.aspx)? I have tried using a few shops in in Essex/Sussex but all I get is 'sorry there has been a problem' . If you haven't used this page, try entering your postcode and see if you get anything.
Hmmmm, the website looks identical to Northumbrian Water's and that too gives the 'sorry there has been a problem' when I enter my postcode. So those websites look like a non-starter.
Is that 10mg on your tester the tap or the tank?
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That was tank water Sue. I'll do one on the tank.
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You do need them both for nitrate as you have to subtract the tap level from the tank level.
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tap level 25, tank level 10 so total = 15?
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The overall tank level is minus 15!
The fact that your ammonia is disappearing, you don't have any nitrite worth speaking of, and the tank nitrate is quite a bit lower than the tap nitrate does suggest to me that your plants are removing the ammonia rather than filter bacteria. This is not a bad thing.
To summarise:
There are two species of filter bacteria, one uses ammonia as food and turns it into nitrite as their waste product, the other uses nitrite as food and turns it into nitrate as their waste product. There are no bacteria in aquaria that use nitrate as food so we have to remove it with water changes. When cycling, with fish or without, there are virtually no ammonia eaters to remove the ammonia for a few weeks, then the very few that have escaped being poisoned by the water company multiply so that there are enough of them to remove the ammonia. As they do this, the level of nitrite increases until the very few nitrite eaters in the water multiply enough to remove it and turn it into nitrate.
Plants prefer ammonia as food. They will use nitrate in the absence of ammonia. Plants do not use nitrite. In a planted tank, whether the ammonia comes from the fish or a bottle, the plants will use the ammonia as food. They do not turn it into nitrite so there is no nitrite to turn into nitrate. The plants will also use any nitrate that comes with the tap water.
Plants can be used in conjunction with the filter to keep a tank free from ammonia and nitrite. The only danger comes if the plants suddenly start to die. If there are no longer any plants to remove the ammonia the level of ammonia will rise until the few bacteria in the filter have grown enough to take over. There might possibly be no nitrite in the water if the growth of the two bacteria species keep pace with each other.
And plants do have another trick if they come from a tank that has fish in it - there will be bacteria on the plants which will help seed the filter.
What you need to do now is add another 3ppm dose of ammonia and test tommorow. If then you have double zeros, the cycle has finished. If you don't have double zeros, if they are amm below 0.25 and nit below 1.0, add another 3ppm dose of ammonia and test after another 24 hours. If tomorrow they are above 0.25 and 1.0, wait till next day and test again, thn see what the results are.
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PHEW!!! Thanks so much for that Sue.
I've had the other grandchildren here this afternoon and like the ones who gave us the tank think we are very odd. My girlchild even said she didn't know fish had feelings when I asked her to imagine how unhappy the fish would be living in their own muck. She's 14 and a very very clever child.
Will add the ammonia tonight and do all you suggest.
Thanks again
Sandra
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Hello again, saviours of my sanity!!
Saturday AMMONIA was 2.0 so added around 1.0 to bring it up to around 3
NITRITE 0.25
Sunday tested again as advised and AMMONIA appeared to be 2.0
NITRITE appeared to be between 0.5-1.5 (difficult to tell)
Didn't add anything
Today, Monday 19th I have tested with new JBL strips (ran out of nitrite tests and this was all I could get in a hurry.
NITRITE appears as 10 (off the scale according to the other kit)
NITRATE appears as 100 (maximum showing on the other kit)
GH 21
KH 10
PH 7.5 - 8
CL 0 ( which is should be with Tapsafe)
Today used Original Ammonia test kit shows result as 2 so no movement downwards on ammonia?
I can feel a sacrificial fish coming on !!
Where am I going wrong please !!!!!!
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You are probably not going wrong anywhere, but the first nitrite tester was showing a false low.
You can try a dilution test though without pure water and very accurate measuring equipment it will be ball park, which is good enough for these purposes.
Mix a sample of tank water with tap water. To start, use 1 part tank and 4 parts tap (ie 1 part tank in a total of 5 parts). Measure the nitrite with the new tester. If it still off the top, repeat using 1 part tank and 9 parts tap.
If the 1 in 5 dilution gives you a reading anywhere on the scale, you know that the first tester is wrong and that your nitrite is off the top of the scale. If you have to do a 1 in 10 dilution to get it on the scale, the tank is actually well off the top.
If the first tester is wrong, we have been fooled into thinking you had almost no nitrite when in reality it was high. Because the nitrite seemed to be low it looked safe to add more ammonia which turns out to have been the wrong thing to do. All that adding the ammonia has done is to push your nitrite level so high the cycle has stalled.
The next course of action is to remove as much of the water as you can. Look at it this way, at least you'll be practicing using the siphon before you have fish. Refill the tank and add 3ppm worth of ammonia. This will not damage the ammonia eaters you have grown unless you take so long that the media becomes bone dry. Then test in 2 days for both ammonia and nitrite and report back.
And if you could get hold of a liquid reagent nitrite tester, the results would be less inaccurate than the strips.
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Thanks Sue. I'll have a go tomorrow.
I do actually have some liquid nitrite test on order and it should be here by Wednesday hopefully.
You definitely need a degree in science to do this flipping lark!
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You definitely need a degree in science to do this flipping lark!
Good job I have one ;D (40 year old degree in chemistry ;) )
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;D :)) ;)
ME :'(
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Tested one part tank to 4 parts tap and it measures
NITRITE more than 2 and less than 5 on the strip compared to 10 yesterday
NITRATE more than 25 and less than 50
AMMONIA retested and was still around 2
Do I still empty and refill Sue.
On the basis that I would be emptying the tank I switched the heater off last night and packed the tank with cushions. Heat is showing as around 15c 60f
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So the actual tank nitrite is something like 10 to 25 so it could be over 15, the danger point.
I would err on the side of caution and empty the tank. It will be OK to leave the tiny bit of water in the gravel, that won't do any harm. The bacteria you have grown won't be affected provided you remember to dechlorinate the water and I would also warm the water before adding it - it doesn't need to be at the cycling temp, adding it at around 15 deg as the tank is now down to that. Cold water straight from the tap is very cold at the moment so it would take a while to warm up.
Then add a dose of ammonia. You will still have the ammonia eaters and they should get to work straight away turning the added ammonia into nitrite. If you have some nitrite eaters, they can get to work as soon as the ammonia eaters make nitrite. And neither will be inhibited by high nitrite.
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Thanks so much Sue. My husband thinks you have the patience of a saint O:-)
I will empty the tank, refill with dechlorinated water.
Then I'll check the ammonia still in because of what was left and add ammonia to the 3ppm.
Thanks muchly. Appreciate it.
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UPDATE:
20th Jan emptied tank completely, bare trace of ammonia left
Filled with new dechlorinated water.
Put in ammonia 3pp
21st Jan
Ammonia still 3
Nitrite 5
Nitrate 50?
23rd Jan (today)
Ammonia slightly less than 2
Nitrite between 0 - .25
Nitrate between 25 - 50
It looks to me as if it's moving in the right direction?
Please tell me I'm right !!!!
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Yes you are ;)
It's just a question of patience now. Test every 2 days and wait till you have zero ammonia then zero again 2 days later. On the day of the second zero, add a 1ppm dose of ammonia.
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Yay....... :rotfl: :fishy1:
Thank you very much Sandra
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More advice please as I am so concerned about getting this wrong and delaying it again.
UPDATE:
POSTED ON 23rd Jan[/b]
Emptied tank completely, bare trace of ammonia left
Filled with new dechlorinated water.
Put in ammonia 3pp
21st Jan
Ammonia still 3
Nitrite 5
Nitrate 50?
23rd Jan (today)
Ammonia slightly less than 2
Nitrite between 0 - .25
Nitrate between 25 - 50
It looks to me as if it's moving in the right direction?
Please tell me I'm right !!!!
Sue, you kindly replied to this. Could I please ask for your help again based on the following
Sunday 25th Jan
Ammonia 0.2
Nitrite .25
Nitrate towards 100
Monday 26th Jan
Left the tank alone
Tuesday 27th Jan
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 50-100
Weds 28th Jan
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 50
ADDED 1 ml of AMMONIA
Thursday left tank alone
Friday 30th Jan
Ammonia .05 ish (less than 1 anyway)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 100 +
ADDED FULL DOSE OF 3ml and tested at 3ppm
Saturday 31st Jan
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite 1.0 (ish)
Nitrite 100-250 (high anyway)
Changed 2.5 litres of water using Tapsafe
Reading after was
Ammonia 1.0+
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 50 - 100
Sunday 1st Feb
Left tank alone
Monday 2nd Feb
Ammonia barest trace (nowhere near 0.2)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 50
I am now flummoxed as I don't know what to do next or where I am in the cycle
I HATE NUMBERS!!!!! and especially DECIMAL POINTS :'(
Any help much appreciated
As a PS I forgot to add that both KH and PH are dropping.
KH was 6-10 on Saturday nw 3-6
PH was 7.6 + on Saturday now 6.8 -7.2
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Your falling KH and pH - do you have any bicarbonate of soda in the kitchen cupboard? If not, it is sold in the home baking section at the supermarket (small plastic tub)
You need to add some to your tank, dissolve in a bit of water first.
If I remember, the tank is mid 20s litres? Use half a teaspoon (half a 5 ml spoon) and see what that gives you after waiting half an hour for it to mix in. You can add more if necessary. Aim for a KH around 10. The pH should go up as well, it doesn't matter how high as the filter bacteria prefer it high to multiply. At this stage the main thing is to stop it falling.
After changing the water on Saturday you had 1.0+/0.5 and 2 days later they were zero. So you do have bacteria, just not enough.
I would continue testing every 2 days and adding a 1ppm dose when ammonia drops to zero. As soon as you have zero ammonia and very low nitrite, then add a 3ppm dose and test next day.
The filter bacteria do need carbonate as well as ammonia/nitrite to multiply. Hopefully adding bicarb will give them a boost.
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Got plenty of bicarb Sue. Thanks, I'll try that
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The big water change after the cycle has finished will remove all the sodium so it is safe to use bicarb during cycling.
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Quote "I would continue testing every 2 days and adding a 1ppm dose when ammonia drops to zero. As soon as you have zero ammonia and very low nitrite, then add a 3ppm dose and test next day -"
Thanks Sue. Have added the bicarb and KH was somewhere between 10-15 and PH headed towards 7.2.
Could I just pick your brains again regarding the above quote. Adding 1pppm when ammonia drops to zero. Does it matter if I still have nitrites showing over .25? and the same with adding the 3ppm with zero ammonia. What would count as very low nitrite. What if nitrites are over .25 in either scenario.
It's probably hard to believe I actually went to school isn't it. I was in a top stream all through secondary school but when it came to the maths lessons I was the one he always literally threw the blackboard rubber at.
It would be classed as assault these days eh.
I am more than capable at straightforward arithmetic but mention all that fancy stuff like algebra, geometry, fractions and god forbid decimals and it all goes to pot. Panic sets in. Even at my advanced age (which is WELL past retirement) :rotfl:
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You don't mean to say there is someone older than me :yikes: I though I was just about the oldest at 61 ;D
I like maths ;D One of my favourite subjects at school. I had to choose between maths and biology at A level and biology won.
Strictly speaking, you add 3ppm ammonia then wait until you get ammonia under 0.75 and nitrite over 2. You are past this stage.
Then you another 3ppm ammonia and test every 2 days till you get 2 sets of readings where ammonia is zero, that is zero one day and zero again 2 days later. You have reached this stage - 0.2 on 25th, 0 on 27th and 0 on 28th.
Once you get the two zero ammonias, you add 1ppm ammonia, which you did on 28th, and still test every 2 days.
The next stage is waiting till ammonia drops below 0.25 and nitrite below 1.0 which you had on 30th. At this stage you add 3ppm ammonia, which you did, and test after 24 hours.
If you had double zeros after this 24 hours you would have been cycled, but you didn't, you had amm 2.0 and nit 1.0 on 31st. So you are supposed to continue testing every day till you get amm less than 0.25 and nit less than 1.0 again - only you did a water change.
Today, 2nd Feb, you are under amm 0.25 and nit 1.0.
Thinking about it, add a 3ppm dose of ammonia and test again tomorrow. *If you have double zeros, good. If not, test every day and wait till you have amm less than 0.25 and nit less than 1. When you get those readings, add 3ppm dose ammonia and test again next day. * Repeat from * to * until you do get double zeros 24 hours after adding a 3ppm dose.
Once you get to double zeros 24 hours after adding a 3ppm dose, you will be cycled.
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Phew - what an epistle. What a star. Even I can follow that (I think !)
Many thanks for taking the time and trouble.
Buy the way, I'm old enough to be your much older sister!! I officially retired 8 years ago in March