Tropical Fish Forum

Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fishtank Filtration and Cycling => Topic started by: Bazza2000 on August 29, 2018, 01:15:07 PM

Title: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on August 29, 2018, 01:15:07 PM
I've been looking around the forums to try and see if anyone is doing similar, but doesn't appear so.  My plan (not the best I know so please give minimal critcism  :-[ ) is to run my tank for a week with no fish and then get a few as its for the kids birthdays so can't really make them wait the 1-2 months for a full cycle.

I've been chatting with @Littlefish who has kindly agreed to donate some mature media when the time is right and I'm just setting up my plan of attack to start this weekend. I also have a bottle of "Fluval cycle biological enhancer" to put in over the 1st few days (I know these products don't get the best wrap but thought as I have it, it can't do any harm)

Current plan:

Saturday - Wash Substrate, tank decorations etc and setup tank with filter, heater, substrate, decorations, water (with tap safe) and let it run for 24 hours to get water to temp and make sure everything is running as expected.
I'll take  water readings for everything immediately and then after 24 hours and then on a regular frequency as the cycle progresses.

Sunday/Monday - Visit LFS and pick some Elodea plants to help with the cycle and maybe some surface plants - duck weed seems to be recommended although there does appear to be some bad reports too, any advice?  Whilst I'm there, going to have a look at the local stock and based on my community fish selections see whats available and compatible.

At this point I know I need to get some ammonia in the tank so advice on the best course of action here would be appreciated.  I can't get seeded media ( thanks again @Littlefish) until Tuesday due to logistics of not being around to receive and install until then, so at this point I'm a little stuck as to the best way to move forward, do I need to get some ammonia to add during the initial week that I'll have no fish?  or could I just drop in some fish food and let it rot and produce ammonia that way (not too sure how long it takes to rot?)

Tuesday - Friday - Mature media arrives and installed, then looking for advice really on the best course of action from here. Assuming more ammonia at some point + more readings.

2nd Saturday - up to 90% water change and get 3 or 4 of the hardy fish from my Community Selection and then introduce the fish gradually to the tank, allowing time for water temperature to equalise and introduce a bit of tank water to the bag over several minutes to give them time to acclimatise.

2nd Saturday onwards - regular measurements and water changes as required to keep the levels down.

Please feel free to tear my plan apart, that's my reason for putting it up here in the 1st place TBH.  The only part that can't change is adding the fish on the 2nd Saturday, earlier is fine, but can't be any later.  ( I know, hit me with the beating stick  :vcross: for being cruel to fish, but I'll be on the ball with water monitoring and as soon as levels rise I'll be doing immediate water changes to help them along the way.  :fishy1: )

Thanks again for all the advice so far.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on August 29, 2018, 01:54:08 PM
What filter are you getting for the tank? Just asking to work out what type and volume of filter media it will take.
I understand the issue with birthdays, and it would be so wonderful for you to be able to introduce fish at that time.

In order to minimise any potential damage to the fish, the more mature media we can get into the filter, the better. I have a lot of mature media available, from several internal and external filters.

@Sue if I can get enough mature media to Bazza to fill around 50% of the filter, would it be possible to add some ammonia to boost bacteria numbers Tuesday to Friday, water change Saturday morning, add birthday fish later in the day.

As a slight aside, I thought I'd post this as it made me chuckle...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263880523841
It's the first time I've noticed someone advertising this stuff as "suitable for fishless aquarium cycling"
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on August 29, 2018, 02:27:21 PM
Just a couple of comments:

Adding ammonia will keep the mature media fed till the fish arrive, but you must remove every trace before putting the fish in.
Our town has a small family run DIY shop which sells Kleen Off ammonia. But read the label as there are several products in the Kleen Off range and I once heard of someone trying to cycle with oven cleaner  :o

Throw the Fluval product away and get Tetra Safe Start.
When these cycling products were first invented they based the formulation on what worked in sewage treatment where both ammonia and nitrite are quite high. Although they managed to use a species of ammonia eating bacteria that work in fish tanks, they chose a nitrite eater which didn't because those bacteria need high levels of nitrite to survive and there are only low levels in a fish tank - once cycled the level is so low our test kits can't measure it.
Then a chap working for a company called Marineland did some research and discovered which bacteria the nitrite eaters in fish tanks actually are. Marineland and the chap who made the discovery patented or copyrighted (whichever is the correct term) the use of these bacteria. The chap left Marineland and set up his own company and because he was named on the patent/copyright he could make a product with the correct nitrite eaters. This is Dr Tim's One & Only which is hard to get in the UK. Marineland was taken over by Tetra, and they rebranded the Marineland product as Safe Start, which still uses the correct nitrite eaters.
Tetra Safe Start is sold widely in the UK - just make sure the bottle is still in date.



I would set up the tank and let it run to check all the equipment works, get the plants, then add the mature media when it arrives.

Since you really do want to do a fish-in cycle, get the barbs first.




Duck weed is not sold at fish shops, it is an unwanted weed for most people. But if you can cope with having a 'weed' it will do a good job of taking up ammonia. You may find some shops that have it in their tanks; if you find some, ask for it. The reason it is a weed is because it grows very fast and takes over. But this is what you need during a fish-in cycle. Once you have all your fish you can net it out and throw it away, it will have done its job. if you can't find it in a shop, there are people on Ebay selling it.
Alternatively, buy another floating plant. I used to have Salvinia which I bought on Ebay but it all died off a few years ago during a very hot spell when condensation from the lid dripped on it and rotted the leaves. This applies to all floating plants with furry leaves such as Amazon frogbit and water lettuce. Duckweed does not have furry leaves, and neither does water sprite if you can find that. Water sprite can also be grown rooted in the substrate. And elodea can be left floating as well as being planted.

Long term, the fish you are thinking about do not like bright light as they come from rivers with overhanging trees. They will appreciate whichever floating plant you get.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on August 29, 2018, 02:38:09 PM
I've just gone back to the other thread to check tank size. As soon as we know what filter is being used I think I may be able to provide all the mature media. If so, then at least it will give the fish the equivalent to a newly cycled tank. That should be a bit safer for them.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: fcmf on August 29, 2018, 02:39:57 PM
This is Dr Tim's One & Only which is hard to get in the UK.
Ah, you've reminded me - I stumbled across it for the first time the other day while looking for something else at this website https://www.realaquatics.co.uk/ which I don't actually recall seeing before.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on August 29, 2018, 02:49:04 PM
I just had a look and unless I missed it they only have the marine version of One & Only. But they do sell that company's ammonium chloride for cycling. That's a form of ammonia.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: fcmf on August 29, 2018, 03:11:20 PM
Is this not it? https://www.realaquatics.co.uk/drtim-s-one-only-freshwater-nitrifying-bacteria-filter-start-60ml-120ml.html
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on August 29, 2018, 03:21:04 PM
I've just gone back to the other thread to check tank size. As soon as we know what filter is being used I think I may be able to provide all the mature media. If so, then at least it will give the fish the equivalent to a newly cycled tank. That should be a bit safer for them.

Hi, Filter specs are here: http://ciano.pt/en/produto/emotions-pro-80/ (http://ciano.pt/en/produto/emotions-pro-80/)

There are also some details next to the photos attached to this post.  There is 1 long full height square sponge and then 4 compartments for other elements I'm not too sure what they're for, but I did notice 4 packets of something before I left for holiday.  Can check more when I get back on Saturday.

Efficient and functional biological filtration
The aquarium is equipped with a CFBIO150 Ciano® biological filtration system, with more filtration power due to its horizontal filtration (filter masses). The filter is equipped with a high performance motor 260 l / h, an efficient 150W heater and the consumables (2 Water Clear “M”, 2 Bio-Bact “M” and 1 FOAM “L”), for a chemical filtration, biological and mechanical. Optionally, you can attach a fully immersible digital thermometer with integrated sensor.

Equipment Included
1 Biological filter CFBIO150 Ciano®;

1 LED lighting system CLE80 Ciano® (24W – 38VDC);

1 Converter LED(27 - 40VDC);

1 Water Pump 260 l/h;

1 Heater 150W;

2 Doses WATER CLEAR “M” Ciano®;

2 Doses BIO-BACT “M” Ciano®;

1 FOAM “L” 30PPI Ciano®;



Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on August 29, 2018, 03:35:11 PM
Just to confirm, are you saying it would be better to get Dr Tim's or Tetra Safe Start? and do you have a link to the correct ammonia product? Ta
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on August 29, 2018, 03:52:31 PM
fcmf's link is to the correct Dr Tim's One & Only. My excuse for not seeing it is that I have rotten cold and having to stop reading to sneeze etc.  ::)

Yes, the product in fcmf's link is Dr Tims, and Tetra Safe Start is available at Pets@Home https://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/tetra-safestart-50ml as well as smaller shops, Amazon & Ebay.

Dr Tim's ammonium chloride https://www.realaquatics.co.uk/drtim-s-ammonium-chloride-solution-for-fishless-cycling-60ml.html They also have an Ebay shop.

But also look on Ebay & Amazon for ammonia and look for the KleenOff Multi Purpose Household Ammonia. A lot of other brands contain detergent and are no use.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on August 29, 2018, 04:52:09 PM
Thanks for the links to the tank & filter information.
I can send mature sponge media big enough for that filter.
Looking at information on replacement parts, it says to replace the foam every 90 days - DO NOT DO THIS, as you will be throwing out the bacteria and essentially starting your tanks cycle from scratch. Foam/sponge just needs to be gently rinsed in used tank water during routine maintenance.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on August 29, 2018, 04:59:20 PM
Fab! Really appreciated!
And yep, read all the forum posts on washing filter in tank water and refitting.
One question, do I replace the main long sponge with your media or 1 to 4 of the smaller ones? Do I need to use the 1 to 4 smaller ones at all?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on August 29, 2018, 05:24:57 PM
Replace the long sponge with the sponge that I send. You may need to trim to size, as my sponges are more square, but I'll check the measurements of the sponge for your filter and make sure you get enough.
Looking at the information available for your filter, the 4 white things are 2 x water clear cartridges, and 2 x Bio-bact cartridges.
I don't know anything about this filter, so I'm only going on what it says on their site.
The water clear cartridges are described as chemical filtration, to keep the water clear, reduce algae, etc. According to another site it is activated carbon, and has to be removed when using medication.
The Bio-bact is described as biological filtration, and says it is "an excellent habitat for nitrifying bacteria". Again, it says to remove these cartridges if using medication.

If a filter comes with activated carbon it is common to remove it, and fill the space with more sponge, then just keep the carbon for removing any left over medication after a water change when a medication regime has been completed.
If any of the others have any experience with these filters or cartridges please let us know if they are surplus to requirements, or if we could go with more sponge. thanks.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on August 29, 2018, 06:12:22 PM
Great, thanks, I'll get the exact measurements of the long sponge when I get home on Saturday and post.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on August 29, 2018, 06:29:41 PM
That would be really helpful, thanks.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on August 29, 2018, 06:33:05 PM
Least I can do  ;D
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2018, 07:42:54 PM
Sue you are a genius with these thivs but just wondering about your choice of the barbs for the first fish... I have never kept barbs but I know harlequins are incredibly hardy having been through a fish in cycle with me before I knew any of this stuff.  What do you think?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on August 29, 2018, 08:20:08 PM
I have never had actual harlequins, just Espe's rasboras, but I have had cherry barbs. 3 of the rasboras died within a few weeks, but the barbs proved very hardy until the whitespot outbreak. I don't know if it was the whitespot, the raised temp for weeks, or the attempts find a medication that was effective on this strain of whitespot, but they all died, having been very healthy fish up to that point.
Of course harlequins might be hardier than Espeis rasboras.

If you have had harlies and found them to be hardy, then either those or cherry barbs for the first fish. But whichever are chosen, the rest of the shoal should be added before starting a second speciees.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2018, 08:25:37 PM
One way to approach it would be which are smaller in the shop on the day... smaller fish = less waste
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 03, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Started my initial fishless cycle Saturday, added ammonia yesterday up to 3ppm, got some cloudy water today which I suppose is to be expected, @Littlefish (thanks again) has kindly posted some mature media which should arrive tomorrow and I'll get that straight in.  I have a query about whether to replace the current sponge I have or to add the mature media into a 2nd compartment which is available with my system as shown:

(http://ciano.pt/wsite/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/filtracao-Emotions-PRO.jpg)

Would it matter if I had 2 sponges in the filter i.e. would it cause issues with circulation or cause the pump to work harder than normal?  Or would it just be easier to do a straight swap?

The thinking around having 2 is that I could always replace 1 after a healthy lifetime (assuming years) and leave 1 in, and then alternate if that makes sense? How does everyone else do it?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 03, 2018, 08:58:32 PM
Can you tell us exactly what the various media are please? I can recognise the sponge, but what are the white blocks on the left of the sponge, and in the box at the bottom of the compartment on the extreme left?

Usually it is better to leave out any carbon and replace that with sponge. Or replace the existing sponge with Littlefish's sponge. It is considered better to have mature media early in the direction of water flow if at all possible; that way any bacteria/biofilm that becomes loose gets washed into other media and helps start it to grow there.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 03, 2018, 09:31:04 PM
Hi Sue, the white blocks are according to the manual 2 Doses of Water Clear "M" and 2 Doses of BIO-BACT "M", I've not added them in yet as I'd seen advise elsewhere to leave them out, so effectively the 4 white block section is empty at the moment, the bottom left is the pump and the tube on the right is the heater.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 03, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
Littlefish's media can go in the space where the white blocks are supposed to go; or cut up both her sponge and your sponge and put bits of both in each section. You would need to cut them lengthways because there should be no gaps in the direction of water flow - side to side - or the water will go through the gaps rather than through the sponges.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 03, 2018, 10:00:04 PM
Ah, good point about the lack of gaps, didn't think of that, thanks again Sue (the fountain of all fish knowledge!)  :fishy1:
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 04, 2018, 07:24:19 AM
The mature media I have sent is as follows:-
2 x complete inner sponges from Superfish Aquaflow 200 filters, with the carbon replaced with ceramic media, and some extra squares of sponge. The Superfish sponges are approximately 6cm x 6cm, with a length of around 9cm. When I got them I removed the carbon and replaced it with the ceramic media. Both of these together came to less than 24cm (length required to replace existing sponge), so I've also included several squares of sponge to make up the total length, to make sure there were no gaps in the sponge chamber.
I would suggest using at least one of these inner sponges in its entirety, perhaps cut your sponge to a length of 15cm (ish, check what you need before cutting, and cut a bit bigger so you have to squeeze the sponge in to avoid gaps) to fill the rest of that space. I'd suggest that you use the second mature sponge in its entirety to replace the carbon cubes, and pieces of the other sponge to plug any gaps between the other cubes.
There is a lot of mature media that should reach you today, and if you can get it all into your filter then there is a very strong possibility that your filter could be able to process 3ppm ammonia within 24 hours, with a bit of luck.  :)

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 04, 2018, 07:36:43 AM
I've noticed that your second filter chamber is narrower than the first, so you wouldn't be able to use an entire mature sponge to replace the carbon cubes as the sponge would be too big. If you cut the sponge length-ways it would probably fit. You would lose the ceramic media, but that wouldn't be the end of the world.
The two complete inners are "more mature", and have come from more heavily stocked tanks than the off-cuts of sponge, so use as much of the two oblong sponges as possible, even if you have to cut one up.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 04, 2018, 08:48:06 AM
Yeah, I'll take my sponge and hack it to make it fit and then put your media in where it came from so it hits the water 1st and hopefully passes some of the good bacteria through onto my original sponge.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 04, 2018, 01:14:50 PM
Keep us posted - I hope it all goes well.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 04, 2018, 01:19:47 PM
Will do, just keeping an eye out for the posty, normally comes mid afternoon!
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 04, 2018, 06:51:26 PM
New media has arrived and been installed (thanks again @Littlefish - packaging was fantastic!!) I managed to install about half of my original sponge in the separate compartment too so hopefully not too much disruption.

One things I've noticed on the glass (this was before the new media was installed) was a small something, looks like a snail to me, but wanted some advice, it may have arrived on the plants I put in over the weekend.

Anyone got any idea what it is, and is it safe to leave in?

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 04, 2018, 07:16:16 PM
It's a snail  :)

I can't tell from the photo but the two most common 'pest' snails are tiny ramshorns and physids - the latter are referred to as pond, bladder, tadpole and pest snails. Google should find some images for you to compare. And yes, it did arrive with your plants, either as a snail or an egg.

They are not bad. I know a lot of people will do everything they can to eradicate every last snail but they are actually an important part of a tank's ecosystem. They are only a problem when they take over, and the main reason they take over is because they have a lot of food - uneaten fish food. As long as you don't over feed the fish, once you have some, their numbers should be kept low. They will eat algae and dying plants so even if they don't get even a tiny spec of fish food they will still find enough to eat.
Fish do not need as much food as you'd think. Mammals use a lot of what they eat just maintaining body temperature. Fish don't do this, their body temp is regulated by water temp so their need for food, weight for weight, is less than mammals. As a very rough guide, a fish's stomach is the same size as its eye. Feed the fish as much food as is equivalent to one eye per fish  :)



I have tiny ramshorns and physids that came free with plants, and I have bought malaysian trumpet snails and nerite snails for my tanks.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 04, 2018, 07:20:46 PM
I've also taken reading over the past few days (pre-mature media installation) to see how things where getting on with a few strange results. 
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 04, 2018, 07:23:12 PM
It's a snail  :)

I can't tell from the photo but the two most common 'pest' snails are tiny ramshorns and physids - the latter are referred to as pond, bladder, tadpole and pest snails. Google should find some images for you to compare. And yes, it did arrive with your plants, either as a snail or an egg.

They are not bad. I know a lot of people will do everything they can to eradicate every last snail but they are actually an important part of a tank's ecosystem. They are only a problem when they take over, and the main reason they take over is because they have a lot of food - uneaten fish food. As long as you don't over feed the fish, once you have some, their numbers should be kept low. They will eat algae and dying plants so even if they don't get even a tiny spec of fish food they will still find enough to eat.
Fish do not need as much food as you'd think. Mammals use a lot of what they eat just maintaining body temperature. Fish don't do this, their body temp is regulated by water temp so their need for food, weight for weight, is less than mammals. As a very rough guide, a fish's stomach is the same size as its eye. Feed the fish as much food as is equivalent to one eye per fish  :)



I have tiny ramshorns and physids that came free with plants, and I have bought malaysian trumpet snails and nerite snails for my tanks.

Thanks Sue, I'll leave the little blighter for now, he is tiny though, I thought it was spec of dust!
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 04, 2018, 07:30:42 PM
Your graph is interesting. It would appear that the Safe Start has had an effect, albeit a small one so far. The ammonia reading fell slightly and nitrite appeared shortly after adding the Safe Start.

Don't take too much notice of nitrate. It is very difficult to measure accurately at home. My younger, son who used to work as an analyst for a water testing company, is highly amused by our nitrate testers. Part of the problem is that one of the reagents is not soluble, so we have to shake and shale that bottle to distribute the powder throughout the liquid.


The next few, post Littlefish's media will be most interesting  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 04, 2018, 07:44:55 PM
Glad the media arrived safely.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 06, 2018, 07:03:35 AM
Latest graph on water tests, unsure if this is good or bad??

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 06, 2018, 10:03:07 AM
Have you added any ammonia since Littlefish's mature media went in the tank?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 06, 2018, 11:55:27 AM
Not yet no.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 06, 2018, 12:26:53 PM
In that case we can't know just how many bacteria the new media has added to your tank. Add 3 ppm ammonia as soon as you can, and measure everything 24 hours later.
If ammonia is still 3 ppm (which I doubt), don't get fish just yet.
If ammonia and nitrite are zero, when you go for fish you can get almost all your planned list. But if neons are still on the list, wait a few months before getting them as they do better in a mature tank - one that has grown a whole host of other micro-organisms.
If there is some ammonia and /or nitrite when you test after 24 hours, do a water change to remove them before you go fish shopping - ideally the evening before so the water temp has time to settle. Then get one shoal of fish and proceed as for a fish-in cycle. This means test for ammonia and nitrite every day and do a water change if you see either above zero. Once you've had zeros for 7 days, get the next batch, test every day for ammonia & nitrite etc. Even if the mature media hadn't added enough bacteria to remove 3 ppm ammonia, and the nitrite made from it, it should have added enough to cope with a lower bioload, which means that even if you can't get all your fish you will be fine getting some.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 06, 2018, 12:41:51 PM
Thanks Sue, will get that added this evening and monitor over the next few days.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 06, 2018, 02:01:22 PM
Fingers crossed.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 06, 2018, 04:01:56 PM
Ok, we are now at 2ppm, the API kit only measure 2 or 4ppm so thought best to keep it lower that 4 so looks good on 2ppm, will monitor over the next 24 hours.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 07, 2018, 11:43:58 PM
Near at the end of my 1st week fishless/fish-in cycle and it appears our attempts at fast tracking my cycle have failed.  Whilst there were promising signs middle of the week once I'd added the mature media (thanks again @Littlefish ) and tetra safe start, it appears I now have no bacteria and I'm effectively 1 week into a fish-in cycle.  I've put the most recent Ammonia drop down to the plants helping out.
 My fish-in cycle will start on Sunday (4 x Cherry Barbs) after I do a major water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down to safe levels.  Just wanted to thank everyone for the fantastic advice and help along the way up to now.  I'm kinda looking forward to the challenge of keeping the fish as safe as I can during the fish-in cycle.  I'll keep you updated with my progress.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 08, 2018, 07:59:15 AM
Sorry to hear that the mature media hasn't worked @Bazza2000
Bummer.  :(

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 08, 2018, 08:05:16 AM
Thanks @Littlefish, appreciate your efforts in getting it over to me, much appreciated, couldn't be helped.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 08, 2018, 08:08:47 AM
Not too sure if this is the right thread, but I've noticed my plants don't seem as healthy as they used to be, some algae by the looks of it on some and the Elodia has strands hanging from some of the leaves.  Anyone seen this before?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 08, 2018, 08:10:11 AM
Sometimes these things happen.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on September 08, 2018, 08:36:51 AM
The second plant is dying because it is not an aquatic plant!! It cannot survive in aquatic conditions. Sorry but you have been miss sold this. Get rid of it before it rots and destroys your water quality!

I don't think elodia grows roots, but is that what they look like?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on September 08, 2018, 08:39:10 AM
Right... done a bit of research on the elodia. Yep they are roots :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 08, 2018, 08:56:41 AM
I've seen a lot of places selling plants that are not truly aquatic in their bunched plants tank.
If it's any consolation @Bazza2000 I have previously bought exactly the same plant that you have, and ended up throwing it away. I'd suggest spending a little bit more money and purchasing the potted aquatic plants, which also come with labels containing planting information which you can double check online.
As for the elodea, that can also be used as a floating plant, and grows roots at fairly random places along the length. Good to see yours are rooting.  :)

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 08, 2018, 09:24:04 AM
Your chart does not show the cycle has been a failure  :) Ammonia hardly rose after the last 3 ppm addition, and nitrite never got very high. Had there been no ammonia eating bacteria, the ammonia reading would have stayed constant, but in fact it did drop to zero albeit in 48 hours rather than 24. Had there been no nitrite eaters, once the ammonia level dropped the nitrite reading would have shot up off the scale and stayed there.
You do have a lot of bacteria, just not enough for a fully stocked tank. Take it slowly, one batch of fish at a time, and test ammonia and nitrite every day. If either show up, do a water change. When you've had 7 days of double zeros, get the next batch of fish.
Maybe you can't have a fully stocked tank right away, but you can have some fish now  :) Just do a big water change to remove all the ammonia and nitrite left in the water.



And ignore nitrate. This tester is the least accurate, and you do have live plants.






The non-aquatic plant will grow nicely as a house plant!
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 08, 2018, 10:26:49 AM
Thanks for the info @Matt and @Littlefish , I'll take it back to the shop and let them know, I was planning on buying the Cherry Barb's there tomorrow, so will see what their response is to the non-aquatic plant issue.  Shame, I kind of liked the look of them  ;D
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 08, 2018, 10:39:58 AM
When you get the barbs, get more than 4. Get the total number you want. There should be enough bacteria for a whole shoal of cherry barbs. It's not as if you are doing a fish-in cycle from scratch, you do have a good number of bacteria.
I would be a bit concerned that if you get them in two batches, the first batch may not accept the second. With barbs so many species have a hierarchy within the shoal, and adding more means they have to sort out the hierarchy all over again = more nipping and squabbling.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 08, 2018, 10:59:27 AM
Thanks @Sue, when you say I have enough Bacteria, do you mean because the Ammonia is dropping albeit slowly so therefore, there must be some?  Also, I was basing my figure on the fish stocking calculation of "1 inch of fish for every 5 American gallons (19 litres) of tank water"   Cherry Barb adult size is 50mm = approx 2 inches
So, I have

130L tank / 19 litres = 6.84 inches

With each Cherry Barb at 2 inches approx (adult size) that gives me 3.42 Cherries.  Thought I was pushing it with 4 TBH.

Does this look right, or could I add more?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 08, 2018, 11:05:55 AM
Yes, because the ammonia dropped, and nitrite did not go off the scale as the ammonia dropped you do have some bacteria. There should be enough to cope with the first shoal. Since you do have some bacteria you can ignore that 1 inch per 5 galls, that is for when the fish are added with no bacteria in the tank.


Wasn't it you who used the Tetra Safe Start? If you did and there's some left it won't hurt to keep on using it. A belt and braces approach   :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 08, 2018, 11:17:28 AM
Ah, ok, cool.  Yes it was me who used the tetra safe start, and to be honest, I had an increase of nitrite and nitrate immediately after adding, I then added the mature media and took out about 50% of my original media, since then its dropped back to 0, so it definitely did some good and I do have some left, so I'm planning on doing a major water change today, replace my dodgy plant and I'll add in the tap safe and another dose of tetra safe start and leave it until tomorrow afternoon to stabilise until I add the Cherries.
So based on seriouslyfish.com the Cherry Barb recommendation is 6-10 in a shoal, so, as I want to stock with as many varieties as I can over time, would 6 be a better number to start?  Don't want to go the whole 10 or more as that may restrict my total stock further down the line.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 08, 2018, 01:20:39 PM
6 is the minimum, I would go for either 3 males, 3 females or 2 males, 4 females. 8 would be better, 4/4 or 3/5 males:females.




It is an observation that most people when they first start in the hobby go for minimum numbers of lots of species. Me included. But as the years pass, the tendency is for fewer species, but lots of each species. Again, I did that  :) In 180 litres I have just 2 shoaling species but started with 18 of each.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 08, 2018, 03:06:50 PM
ok, thanks, I'll go with 4/4 or 3/5 M/F, I assume the shop will know which one is which  :yikes:

I've just finished a 90% water change and ammonia has dropped to pretty much 0.  Added in the remains of my Tetra Safe Start 108ml for 130L tank and now letting things stabilise and temperature get back to normal for 24 hours before the hard work begins  :fishy1:
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 08, 2018, 03:37:00 PM
Never trust a shop. Even the best ones can't know everything.

Cherry barb males are red, females are paler, pale orange with dark brown markings. Study the photos here http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/puntius-titteya/ (ignore the 'super red strain' photos)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 03:57:52 PM
All clear on the final full suite water sample tests and we now have 8 Cherry Barbs 4M/4F (I think anyway, thanks for the advice @Sue) 30 mins in the bag acclimatising and a futher 10-15 with some tank water and then released to the wild, well ok, my tank which is just as close!  :fishy1:

Seem to be settling in well and surprisingly enjoying swimming against the strong current from the pump.  Few of them having a "sniff" around the ship wreck and a couple on the starfish.  Not going to feed them today, but looking for some advice on the best feeding times, and also how much, I've heard the fishes eye is the same size as its stomach, so only an "eye's" worth for each fish which doesn't really equate to the "pinch" that most sites recommend.  Is this literally an eye's worth of wafer for each fish? By the looks of some of the wafers, that would be about 2 wafers for all of them? Once per day?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on September 09, 2018, 04:22:29 PM
You need to imagine the flakes scrunched up into a 3D ball in a 3D eye sized space. I would suggest  2 or 3 flakes per fish per day. The other way I have heard to do it is to time a minute worth of eating and have enough flake so there is none left at the end of the minute.

Smaller fish like more regular smaller feeding so if you can do two feeding a day they would probably appreciate it, especially at this young age. Bare in mind though that the more you feed the fish the more waste they will produce, so if you have any water quality issues, reduce feeding.

Does that sound right to more experienced members?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: fcmf on September 09, 2018, 04:24:54 PM
Does that sound right to more experienced members?
Yes - spot on.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 04:42:33 PM
Appreciated @Matt, nice and easy way to understand, many thanks for the confirmation @fcmf
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 09, 2018, 04:46:37 PM
Yes from me too  :)

I try to feed at the same time every day so the fish become 'programmed' to expect food.




On a similar theme, fish have a circadian rhythm and they 'expect' the light to be on at the same time every day for the same length every day. The easiest way for that is a timer, if you don't already have one. The actual time of day doesn't matter, whatever suits you and the children best. But the tank lights should not be turned on or off in a totally dark room.The curtains should be drawn back so there is daylight, or the room lights should be turned on at least half an hour before the lights come on; and similarly at the other end of the tank light time, the room lights should be left on, or the curtains open in daylight for at least half an hour after the tank lights go off.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 04:59:33 PM
Ok, makes sense, thanks, I have a raspberry pi which runs domoticz to switch electrical sockets, so at the moment I have the lights hooked in to that so they come on 30 mins after sun rise and go off about 30 mins after sunset.
On another note, I've also just hooked up a camera and temperature monitor to store water temp every minute in a database (also displays on the camera stream) and I have a flow meter which I'm looking to put inline with the pump so I then have all of the information I need in case any components fail, which will alert straight to my smartphone.  Don't want to digress too much in this post, but if anyone is interested, I could put a post together detailing my setup, just not too sure which forum section.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on September 09, 2018, 06:34:30 PM
@Bazza2000 how many hours are your tank lights on for at the moment then?

Interested to hear about your setup though I'm already wondering if it is beyond my comprehension lol! I would suggest putting it in the "Fish Tanks and Equipment" section.

I can't get my sunrise and sunset thing working properly on my lights so I'm planning on adding a spare led to my tank which will switch on before the main ones and off after them. I barely grew plants in a 60 litre this light so i wont be making any massive adjustments to my main lights, just the smallest adjustment I can manage on the system. I'm hoping I might also be able to use a spare moon light to add some background lighting to the tank so it looks like a sky... seen some great photos of scapes with this type of thing online so thought it worth a go too see if it looks daft or not on my tank! Look up the ADA light screen if you don't know what I mean. I won't be spending that kind of money of course. Lighting the wall behind the aquarium is the cheapo version!!
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 09, 2018, 06:55:02 PM
I have all slow growing plants so I don't need the lights on very long. I have 2 LED tubes and a tiny blue LED tube. And 3 timers.

11:30 - first big LED turns on
12:00 - second big LED turns on
18:30 - first big LED turns off
18:55 - blue LED turns on
19:00 - second big LED turns off
19:30 - blue LED turns off

The main tank is in the dining room so the lights are on when we have lunch and dinner.
Both big LEDs are on for 7 hours each, and there is half an hour at each end with just one on. The blue light is on for half an hour on its own at the end.
At 11:30 the room has been in daylight for a few hours. In the summer, the room is in daylight for a few hours after the tank lights go out but in winter I make sure the room light is on till at least 20:00.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 09, 2018, 07:04:36 PM
Great to hear that your cherry barbs are settling into your tank and exploring the decor.  :)

I hope that we are going to see lots of pics of your barbs over the next few days.  ;D
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 08:46:33 PM
@Bazza2000 how many hours are your tank lights on for at the moment then?

They came on at 07:05am this morning (sunrise + 30m) and they will will go off at about 10pm tonight (15hrs) .  They actual where off for most of the day as I introduced the Barbs so turned them off for a few hours whilst they settled in.

Quote
Interested to hear about your setup though I'm already wondering if it is beyond my comprehension lol! I would suggest putting it in the "Fish Tanks and Equipment" section.

Difficulty levels are as follows:

1) Camera - Beginner
2) Temperature - Medium
3) RF Control of sockets - Medium - High

I'll start pulling together a post/blog entry with what I've done when I get a few minutes, if there is an audience, I'll spend more time and get a few youtube video explaining the setup steps.  The main thing about all my diy/hobby stuff is that its cheap, the setup I have with the camera, temperature sensor and flow meter cost me less than £70.

Quote
I can't get my sunrise and sunset thing working properly on my lights so I'm planning on adding a spare led to my tank which will switch on before the main ones and off after them. I barely grew plants in a 60 litre this light so i wont be making any massive adjustments to my main lights, just the smallest adjustment I can manage on the system. I'm hoping I might also be able to use a spare moon light to add some background lighting to the tank so it looks like a sky... seen some great photos of scapes with this type of thing online so thought it worth a go too see if it looks daft or not on my tank! Look up the ADA light screen if you don't know what I mean. I won't be spending that kind of money of course. Lighting the wall behind the aquarium is the cheapo version!!

Like the looks of that ADA light screen, you'll have to share some photos when you have your equivalent setup running.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on September 09, 2018, 08:52:31 PM
You need to reduce the total daily duration of your lighting... a lot. No more than 10 hours. 8 is normally recommended and less for a newly set up tank!  You can see Sues approach below. Mine is unusual on that I have a siesta period on the middle of the day (helps build co2 level back up for better plant growth) but the total duration is 8 hours, split into two 4 hour windows.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 08:53:40 PM
I have all slow growing plants so I don't need the lights on very long. I have 2 LED tubes and a tiny blue LED tube. And 3 timers.

11:30 - first big LED turns on
12:00 - second big LED turns on
18:30 - first big LED turns off
18:55 - blue LED turns on
19:00 - second big LED turns off
19:30 - blue LED turns off

The main tank is in the dining room so the lights are on when we have lunch and dinner.
Both big LEDs are on for 7 hours each, and there is half an hour at each end with just one on. The blue light is on for half an hour on its own at the end.
At 11:30 the room has been in daylight for a few hours. In the summer, the room is in daylight for a few hours after the tank lights go out but in winter I make sure the room light is on till at least 20:00.

I like the sound of this, so you basically adjust the light intensity by adding additional LED lights on different timers :)   I'm assuming that any waterproof led lights will be okay?  Even better if I can use the relatively cheap multicolour dimmable options that are available.

I appear to have a buildup of algae on the front glass and also building on the gravel, I take it this might be due to my 15hrs of light that I'm currently giving the tank?  Would your 7hrs be a good recommendation for my tank too?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 08:55:53 PM
You need to reduce the total daily duration of your lighting... a lot. No more than 10 hours. 8 is normally recommended and less for a newly set up tank!  You can see Sues approach below. Mine is unusual on that I have a siesta period on the middle of the day (helps build co2 level back up for better plant growth) but the total duration is 8 hours, split into two 4 hour windows.

Cheers @Matt just modifying my setup now to come on at 4pm and then off at 10pm (6hrs) so we get the best views in the evning out of the tank.  I'll extend after my tank is more mature.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 09, 2018, 09:09:37 PM
I have two LED tubes that are shaped like and replace T8 fluorescents. They fit into the old T8 clips in the lid. I should explain that this tank was custom built and the builder used a dual external ballast for the fluorescent tubes. They were held in place by a pair of clips fixed to the underside of the fixed part of the lid. All I had to do was remove the tubes and controller, and place the LEDs in the same clips. Each LED tube came with its own transformer.
The small blue LED is different. That claimed to be submersible but the white version I got for my quarantine tank leaked. So the blue one rests on top of the cover glass.

I have seen the flexible LED strips they sell on Ebay and Amazon, but I have never used this type.



I have low light plants attached to wood, and I have hornwort and water sprite floating on the surface. The floating pants cut down the amount of light that the lower plants get but as they are slow growing they seem to do well like this. I also have Espe's rasboras, a close relative of harlequins, and they did not like it before I had the floating plants - they spent all the lights on time huddled in the back corner, only coming out when the tank lights turned off. The floating plants not only make the fish happier they also cut down on the amount of algae growing in the tank.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 09:31:07 PM
Yeah, algae is starting to be a problem even at this early stage, so need to reduce my light hours.  Sounds like a nice setup you have.  Any chance I could see some photos of your tank with the blue light?  I assume this doesn't cause algae growth but looks nice during the evenings?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 09, 2018, 09:45:02 PM
I'll try and take some tomorrow but since the light is so small there's just a glimmer of blue  :)

Blue light does cause algae but it's only on for 35 minutes a day.


This is the little blue LED https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/tank-equipment-reviews/arcadia-classica-aqua-brite-led-light/
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 09, 2018, 09:59:12 PM
Great to see fish in your tank. I hope the kids are happy with their new fishy friends.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: fcmf on September 09, 2018, 10:47:09 PM
Lovely to see your fish.  :fishy1:  :fishy1:  :fishy1:
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 09, 2018, 11:08:23 PM
Thanks, they seem to be doing really well, exploring the place.  Kids very happy, although the arguments have already started about names for each of them.  Not the kids names that is  :rotfl:
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 10, 2018, 08:07:59 AM
I would have thought you'd have already named the kids by now.  ;D

The arguments will get even more complicated the more fish you get.....though it's lovely to hear that the kids are so excited about the fish that they want to name them.

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 11, 2018, 09:13:35 PM
Birthday today and a couple of happy children watching the Barbs which appears to have come out of their shells and are happy swimming round in the top and bottom halves of the tank equally.  They've even come to learn when the top opens its food time  :fishy1:

Couple of days with the Barbs in and water readings are little puzzling.  The PH appears to have stabilised, but I'm getting zero's on all other readings, is this normal?

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on September 11, 2018, 09:39:55 PM
Great pic, hope the birthday celebrations were fun, and it's lovely to see the fish swimming around the tank.
It doesn't take them long to learn the signals for feeding time.  :)

Zeros for ammonia and nitrite are great, but there is usually some nitrate.
Perhaps the others will be able to shine some light on this.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 11, 2018, 10:01:49 PM
What is the nitrate level in your tap water? Does your water company give a water quality report on-line? That should confirm if your testing of your tap water is accurate.

The fish you have won't be making that much ammonia to be turned into nitrate compared to the volume of water. But some nitrate is usual especially as it is rare to have zero nitrate in tap water.

The number of plants may be enough to to remove all the ammonia made by these few fish, and plants don't turn it into nitrite or nitrate. As you get more fish, you may see nitrate appearing as there aren't enough plants to remove the ammonia made by a fully stocked tank.




Other possible explanations:
test kit out of date
not shaking bottle #2 or the test tube enough (assuming you are using the API liquid tester).

It might be an idea to take a sample of tank water to a fish shop and ask them to test nitrate to see what they get. Ask them for the number as they might say something like 'low' or a 'a bit high' which is not much use  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: fcmf on September 11, 2018, 10:24:03 PM
Happy birthday!  :cheers:

Great also about the fish's developments and your children's sharing of the enjoyment.  :fishy1:
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 11, 2018, 10:34:10 PM
Hi Sue, I have the water company reading as:

Nitrate   MIN 3.06   AVG 9.05   MAX 13.2   mg NO3/l

Yes, I'm using an API kit, expiry 2022.
As for bottle shaking, I can confirm my arm is absolutely aching from the 30 second vigorous shaking of bottle #2 both before adding 10 drops and then the further 1 minute of shaking once #2 10 drops have gone in before leaving for 5 mins to read the value.

I've just done fresh tap water and tank water test, (I'm proper knackered now  ;D ) Photos of both are attached.  As you can see its not exactly 0, but then again its not exactly 5ppm  either, I wasn't too sure if I could read it as 2.5ppm, so as its closer to 0 than 5, I've just logged it as 0.

If it is the plants neutralising the ammonia and the fish not creating enough, dare I say, could I be off for a trip to the local aquarium shop to select my 2nd batch of friends?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 12, 2018, 07:04:34 AM
Happy birthday!  :cheers:

Great also about the fish's developments and your children's sharing of the enjoyment.  :fishy1:

Ha, thanks @fcmf not my birthday though, the little fella on the left in the photo was 8.  Very happy with his new fishes!
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 12, 2018, 09:59:54 AM
Try holding the tube against the card rather than in front of it - you'll find the colour looks a bit deeper.  Based on the photo it looks to be 5 ppm, but I am well aware that laptop screens don't always show accurate colours.

Wait till you've had a week of zero ammonia and nitrite then get the next batch of fish. You do have some bacteria but we don't know how many so take it slow. The children do have fish, so you can afford to be cautious from now on.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 12, 2018, 12:43:08 PM
Yep, makes sense @Sue  thanks.  Happy enough as we are for now anyway, Will keep monitoring the water and see where we are same time next week.  I'll tweak my reading of the Nitrate and potentially the others and see how that effects the readings with the tube pressed against the card.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 12, 2018, 01:50:41 PM
Just realised I didn't say to hold the tube against the white part of the card  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 12, 2018, 03:53:48 PM
 ;D Yeah, kinda guessed that one.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 14, 2018, 07:30:45 PM
Another few days of readings and things haven't really changed much, although as you can see from the photo, the nitrate levels are a more definite 5ppm by the looks of it.  Still 0 on Ammonia and Nitrite which seems consistent with the view that the plants are taking out the small amount that the fish are producing.
Should I be doing a water change over the weekend even with the readings showing no real issues?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 14, 2018, 07:47:07 PM
With just the few fish you have, I would do a water change but maybe only 20 to 25%. Once the tank is fully stocked you'll need to do 50% a week.

Two reasons - it's not just nitrate we need to remove but everything excreted and secreted by the fish. These are not broken down by bacteria or taken up by plants and they build up in the water. Nitrate is just an indicator that water changes need to be done, but if plants are using the ammonia, you can't use nitrate as a guide.
And it also gets you in the habit of doing weekly water changes  ;D

Don't feed the fish before a water change as it is not good to chase fish with full stomachs round the tank with a siphon tube. Feed them afterwards.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 14, 2018, 07:55:06 PM
Thanks Sue.  Will sort out a 25% water change tomorrow and see what I can scoop up with the syphon  ;D
In terms of my cycle, does it look like its frozen?  i.e. Plants cancelling out the amount of fish I have?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 14, 2018, 08:10:32 PM
When there are a lot of plants - more than you have looking at your tank photos - there can be enough plants to remove all the ammonia made by a fully stocked tank. In this scenario, a few bacteria grow but not many.
In your case, you don't have enough plants (yet?) to remove all the ammonia that your tank will make when fully stocked, so your tank will grow bacteria and make nitrate as you get more and more fish.
But with just a few cherry barbs you do have enough plants and they use the ammonia faster than the bacteria can take it up. Your plants are beating your bacteria to all the ammonia made by the barbs and there is none left for the bacteria to turn into nitrate. There needs to be more ammonia in the water than the plants can take up before you start growing any more bacteria than the mature media and Tetra Safe Start have already put in your tank.

I would get the next species of fish soon. When the bacteria in the mature media/TSS get starved of ammonia they will start to go dormant, and the longer they are dormant the longer it takes them to 'wake up' again. If left a long time, it can take as long for the bacteria to 'wake up' as it takes for cycling in the first place.  So if you wait too long between batches of fish you risk losing the benefit of the mature media/TSS.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 14, 2018, 08:52:58 PM
Ok, so its looks like I'm better off getting some new fish this weekend. Just need to work out which ones from my list are in stock and how many to add.  Would you recommend I go with double the amount I have now or equivalent based on the adult size of the fish, e.g. Cherries 5cm each x 8 = 40cm current, so go with another 40cm so I'd have 80cm of adult sized fish if that makes sense?  Might help with my aggressive Cherry barb if there is a few bigger fish in there so bring him down a peg or 2 !
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 14, 2018, 09:10:12 PM
Looking at your wish list in your signature, I'd go for a shoal of harlequins next.

You may find it tricky to source headstanders, in which case you'll need a plan B. I would add the gourami and apistos/kribs after the shoaling fish. And neons need a mature tank.

Plan B could be a different shoaling species or bigger shoals of barbs, harlies and neons  :) I must admit that having spent years in the "minimum numbers of lots of species" camp, I'm now in the "larger shoals of a just a few species" camp  ;D
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 14, 2018, 10:31:20 PM
Great, thanks for the advice again Sue.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 17, 2018, 09:43:21 PM
Latest update on my cycle.  Not much change to report, I'm still smashing out the shaking on every test I do so I'm pretty sure the measurements are spot on.  8 new Penguin Tetra have now been in for a couple of days too.  Not too sure what to make of the results.

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 17, 2018, 09:51:47 PM
Concentrate on ammonia and nitrite. As long as they stay at zero everything is fine. Nitrate is the least important of the three, and provided you do regular water changes you can ignore it. I don't have a nitrate tester and haven't for years. But I have ammonia, nitrite and pH.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 23, 2018, 08:24:06 PM
Quick update on my readings.  Still no change after adding the 8 penguin tetras last week.  I'm doing 30% water changes each week although it doesn't appear needed.  Based on the results, would it be okay to add more fish next week?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 23, 2018, 08:40:43 PM
Yes, you can add more fish. As long as ammonia and nitrite stay at zero, you can get another batch of fish a week after this next batch.

You do need to do the water changes. We can measure very few things that end up in the water. Ammonia and nitrite are necessary because any level of those above zero can kill fish. Nitrate needs to be measured because levels above 20 ppm have long term impact on fish health. But there are a lot more things, those things excreted and secreted by the fish, which also build up, and we can't measure them. In a tank with no live plants, nitrate will increase between water changes, and this can be used as an indicator that other things are building up as well. But when there are live plants in a tank, the plants use the ammonia made by the fish; they don't turn ammonia into nitrite or nitrate so nitrate does not build up when the tank is planted. But we still have to do water changes to remove the other, non-measurable chemicals.

Once the tank is fully stocked, you will need to do weekly 50% water changes regardless of the nitrate level.




Once upon a time I worked in a hospital chemical pathology lab. We tested urine for all sorts of things, and fish will excrete similar, if not the same, chemicals. Then there are hormones secreted by the fish to add in to the mix. These all need to be kept to a minimum level.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 23, 2018, 08:43:26 PM
Thanks for the extra info Sue :)  Just need to work out which fish to get next.  Will pick up on the other thread.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on September 24, 2018, 10:17:48 PM
Quick question, I've not cleaned my filter as yet and I'm 3 weeks in.  At which point should I clean the filter media etc.  Noted that I need to clean in the water I've siphoned out.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on September 25, 2018, 05:02:12 AM
You only really need to clean it when it becomes clogged to the point that flow is reduced or when there is significant levels of "crud" trapped which could increase nitrates in the tank through its decomposition. Whilst you have low fish load and are expanding your stocking, I would leave it well alone to be honest.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on September 25, 2018, 08:24:03 AM
I agree. Wait till six weeks then look at the media during a water change. If it is covered in brown slime, gently wash it off in the water you've removed. If it's not covered in brown slime, don't clean it but check next water change. The medium first in the direction of water flow will be messiest.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on October 16, 2018, 08:07:21 PM
been a while since I posted an update, so thought I'd drop in.  Tank is still fantastic, no more fish lost which the kids are happy about  ;D I did a media clean last weekend in water I'd taken out during the water change.  Media didn't look too bad if I'm honest, however, water looked pretty dirty once I'd finished so I'm assuming it needed it.  No Honey Gourami's in the LFS so as the tank is now 46 days in, I decided it was safe enough to add some cardinal tetras (x8).  They appear to have settled in well.
I just wanted to check my readings, I'm still taking them now every other day as they are always the same (see graph).  Is this normal?  I'm thinking that the Elodia which I have to trim every week because it grows so fast is just absorbing all of the ammonia so my tank never gets to start the cycle?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on October 16, 2018, 08:21:11 PM
The tank will cycle even with plants. It's called a silent cycle. Bacteria will grow but not in the amount as in a non-planted tank. Once the tank is full stocked, the fish will make more ammonia than the plants can use, but you will gradually have grown more and more bacteria as you add more fish. This is one reason for taking it slowly, so that the fish don't increase the amount of ammonia going into the tank by very much at one go.

As long as your ammonia and nitrite stay at zero for a week, you can get more fish. But if you ever have even a tiny blip in the readings, do water changes while they last and take a break of a few weeks before getting the next fish.





If you ever take the plants out, watch your readings for a few days to make sure the bacteria you do have will cope.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on October 16, 2018, 08:31:25 PM
Great, thanks Sue.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on October 16, 2018, 09:07:57 PM
Great to see your tank and hear that things are going well.  :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on October 16, 2018, 09:19:40 PM
Thats a nice clean looking tank!  :cheers:
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on October 16, 2018, 09:33:58 PM
Thanks, getting the hang of things now with weekly 30-40% water changes.  Got my trusty flipper algae scraper to clean the glass and then I take the plants out get rid of the tatty stems/leaves, re-bunch and re-plant.  Tank lights are on 6pm to 10pm every day and a little more over the weekend which keeps the algae growth to a minimum.  Feeding twice a day 7am and 7pm, wafer mostly with a blood worm sachet every few days.  Fish seem happy and active, little bit of nipping from the penguins, but they all seem to be getting along well which is great and in no small part to the advice I've received from you lovely lot!!, many thanks again.  :cheers:  :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Matt on October 17, 2018, 06:38:03 AM
Yo may well have these things covered... but... worth checking so you get off to a flying start  ;)

What plants do you have? Are you getting a lot of die off each week?

Are you vacuuming the gravel as part of your water change?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on October 17, 2018, 07:40:51 AM
Hi Matt, I have 2 clumps of the elodia you recommended and 2 of another but not sure, but its in the photo in the previous post. That gets nipped by the fish a lot so just tidy the odd leaves up. The elodia just grows rapid so I just cut them in half and get rid of the odd brown stem and replant.  Yep hoover the gravel each week, amazing how much crap comes out of that.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on November 09, 2018, 07:04:17 PM
Hi everyone, hope you are all still doing well, along with your fish!! Just wanted to give a quick update and ask a couple of questions about my tank.  I'm now 70 days into my cycle and not much has changed on my measurements as you can see from the graph, however, during the past week or 2, I've noticed a quick buildup of dark green algae on the tank, both on the glass, filter and more pronounced on the gravel as you can see from the photos.  I lost 1 of my cardinal tetras a week after they arrived which I put down to the usual stresses of new fish, but now I've also lost 2 more,  1 yesterday and now another 1 today.

I'm still replacing about 30-40% water every week, vacuuming the tank and cleaning the glass, so nothing has changed in my weekly water changes, and I've not added fish since 13/Oct as shown in my profile.  I've just taken fresh water tests today and they are the same as they always are, just wondered if its just one of those things with the cardinals, or if there could be something more sinister related to the algae buildup?

Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on November 09, 2018, 07:13:48 PM
The algae is due to an imbalance between light duration/intensity, carbon dioxide and plant food (both ammonia/nitrate and fertiliser).

How long do you have the lights on for? The most common cause of algae is lights on too long.
You don't have many plants so if you've been adding fertiliser it is probably too much for the amount of plants.


One comment I would make is that the tank looks very bright. Floating plants would help enormously especially with fish like cardinal tetras which come from rivers and streams with a lot of overhanging vegetation so they are conditioned to expect shade over their heads.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on November 09, 2018, 07:28:08 PM
Hi Sue, thanks for the quick response.  The lights are on a timer and come on at 5pm and off at 10pm every day.  I'm not using plant fertiliser at all.  The elodia still grows like wild fire and I have to regularly remove stems and chuck a load away and then replant to keep it under control.  The plant on the right (I'm not too sure of its name) doesn't seem to grow at all and I was going to take it out and replace with another type.
The light is just the standard one which arrived with the tank, but I had considered running some waterproof LED lights around the internal edge of the tank to introduce a dimmed light levels during certain times of the day, so I may explore that to see if it controls the algae a bit more.
I think you'd mentioned floating plants before, could you suggest any that will go with my current setup and won't look out of place.  Also, could I go for a bottom dweller which might keep control of the algae a bit more, any suggestions on that would be much appreciated too, was thinking of a pleccy, catfish or snail?
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Sue on November 09, 2018, 07:37:37 PM
The lighting duration is fine.

The only creature I would recommend is a nerite snail or two, though even they don't eat every type of algae.
The only suitable plec is a bristlenose, or a shoal of otocinclus. Both would take a big chunk out of your stocking allowance, and bristlenoses in particular poo a huge amount.

Google salvinia, water lettuce and Amazon frogbit. But if you decide to get a nerite snail, make sure any plants are shrimp and snail safe. Plants imported from outside the EU must be treated with a chemical to kill snails which will also harm any snails in your tank. I get most of my plants from Ebay and look for sellers stating they are shrimp safe. Or get plants from somewhere like ProShrimp.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on November 09, 2018, 08:18:14 PM
Great, thanks Sue, will take a look and get some of the plants and visit LFS to see what they have in stock.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on November 10, 2018, 08:36:07 AM
I agree with Sue, the tank is quite bright. Don't get fish to deal with algae (seriously, I have BN's, as well as some other algae eaters, and you would not believe the amount of waste they produce), and it would also mess up your stock plans.
You have quite a lot of light for a tank with a small number of plants, and fish waste will fall between the gravel and provide extra nutrients, which all provides a nice home for algae.
A bit of extra cleaning, more plants, and a snail would be helpful. Perhaps even reduce the light for a few days, while dealing with the majority of the algae.
When you syphon the gravel give it a really good clean. Perhaps do a quarter of the tank really thoroughly each day to get rid of as much waste as possible. It may also be worth taking some gravel out and giving it a clean in tap water/hot water to kill off the algae. Wipe the tank glass in one movement from bottom to top, and each time take the sponge/pad out and rinse - this should help to remove the algae, rather than releasing it into the water to resettle elsewhere.
Get some more plants to use up excess nutrients & use the light. Stem plants, such as your egeria densa, are reasonably cheap, can just be stuck in the gravel, and use lots of nutrients. Floating plants look great too. Most fish also appreciate some plants to potter around.  :)
Snails are surprisingly interesting in a tank (less so in the garden  ::) ). There is a great choice of nerites, with really attractive shapes & patterns. These do quite tiny (but numerous) poohs, so you would either need to keep on top of the very thorough gravel syphoning, or have quite a few plants to use it.
Make sure that any food you put into the tank is being eaten, and not falling to the substrate and between thee gravel.

It will take a while to get everything in balance (light/nutrients/etc.) to reduce the amount of algae in your tank. It will take a while, but it will be worth it in the long run.   :)
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Bazza2000 on November 10, 2018, 06:28:35 PM
Thanks @Littlefish, visited LFS today, no frogbit so just place an order on ebay, also picked up some new plants (think they are Cabomba) Also did a 50% water change today, cleaned filter, took out all the ornaments and cleaned them too along with the algae clean you'd already suggested.  LFS finally had some Yellow Honey Gourami's so maanged to pick up 6 which are settling in well.  Will be keeping the light to a minimum for the next few days to see if it makes any difference.   My other theory was that the kitchen LED lights are causing the additional algae growth, with the clocks going back end of October, we have the kitchen lights on a lot more now and the algae appears to be growing around the front of the tank only where the kitchen lights hit, around the back and behind the ship wreck its not too bad.  No Nerites in the LFS today, but hopefully some next week so will pick up a couple then to see if they help.  Thanks again for the info.
Title: Re: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations
Post by: Littlefish on November 10, 2018, 07:46:58 PM
Ambient light can become a problem.
One of my tanks tends to get hit by the setting sun, but that's great as there are a lot of algae eaters in that tank. I rarely have ceiling lights on in the living/dining room, as I have enough tanks to keep the room lit, even if it is blue light towards the end of the evening.
Wiping the ornaments & glass, doing water changes, adding plants, etc. should all have a positive impact on reducing the algae.
Best of luck and let us know how you get on.  :)