Author Topic: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations (Read 17249 times) 119 replies

Bazza2000 · « **on:** August 29, 2018, 01:15:07 PM »

I've been looking around the forums to try and see if anyone is doing similar, but doesn't appear so. My plan (not the best I know so please give minimal critcism

) is to run my tank for a week with no fish and then get a few as its for the kids birthdays so can't really make them wait the 1-2 months for a full cycle.

I've been chatting with @Littlefish who has kindly agreed to donate some mature media when the time is right and I'm just setting up my plan of attack to start this weekend. I also have a bottle of "Fluval cycle biological enhancer" to put in over the 1st few days (I know these products don't get the best wrap but thought as I have it, it can't do any harm)

Current plan:

Saturday - Wash Substrate, tank decorations etc and setup tank with filter, heater, substrate, decorations, water (with tap safe) and let it run for 24 hours to get water to temp and make sure everything is running as expected.
I'll take water readings for everything immediately and then after 24 hours and then on a regular frequency as the cycle progresses.

Sunday/Monday - Visit LFS and pick some Elodea plants to help with the cycle and maybe some surface plants - duck weed seems to be recommended although there does appear to be some bad reports too, any advice? Whilst I'm there, going to have a look at the local stock and based on my community fish selections see whats available and compatible.

At this point I know I need to get some ammonia in the tank so advice on the best course of action here would be appreciated. I can't get seeded media ( thanks again @Littlefish) until Tuesday due to logistics of not being around to receive and install until then, so at this point I'm a little stuck as to the best way to move forward, do I need to get some ammonia to add during the initial week that I'll have no fish? or could I just drop in some fish food and let it rot and produce ammonia that way (not too sure how long it takes to rot?)

Tuesday - Friday - Mature media arrives and installed, then looking for advice really on the best course of action from here. Assuming more ammonia at some point + more readings.

2nd Saturday - up to 90% water change and get 3 or 4 of the hardy fish from my Community Selection and then introduce the fish gradually to the tank, allowing time for water temperature to equalise and introduce a bit of tank water to the bag over several minutes to give them time to acclimatise.

2nd Saturday onwards - regular measurements and water changes as required to keep the levels down.

Please feel free to tear my plan apart, that's my reason for putting it up here in the 1st place TBH. The only part that can't change is adding the fish on the 2nd Saturday, earlier is fine, but can't be any later. ( I know, hit me with the beating stick

for being cruel to fish, but I'll be on the ball with water monitoring and as soon as levels rise I'll be doing immediate water changes to help them along the way.

)

Thanks again for all the advice so far.

Littlefish · « **Reply #80 on:** September 11, 2018, 09:39:55 PM »

Great pic, hope the birthday celebrations were fun, and it's lovely to see the fish swimming around the tank.
It doesn't take them long to learn the signals for feeding time.

Zeros for ammonia and nitrite are great, but there is usually some nitrate.
Perhaps the others will be able to shine some light on this.

Sue · « **Reply #81 on:** September 11, 2018, 10:01:49 PM »

What is the nitrate level in your tap water? Does your water company give a water quality report on-line? That should confirm if your testing of your tap water is accurate.

The fish you have won't be making that much ammonia to be turned into nitrate compared to the volume of water. But some nitrate is usual especially as it is rare to have zero nitrate in tap water.

The number of plants may be enough to to remove all the ammonia made by these few fish, and plants don't turn it into nitrite or nitrate. As you get more fish, you may see nitrate appearing as there aren't enough plants to remove the ammonia made by a fully stocked tank.

Other possible explanations:
test kit out of date
not shaking bottle #2 or the test tube enough (assuming you are using the API liquid tester).

It might be an idea to take a sample of tank water to a fish shop and ask them to test nitrate to see what they get. Ask them for the number as they might say something like 'low' or a 'a bit high' which is not much use

fcmf · « **Reply #82 on:** September 11, 2018, 10:24:03 PM »

Happy birthday!

Great also about the fish's developments and your children's sharing of the enjoyment.

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #83 on:** September 11, 2018, 10:34:10 PM »

Hi Sue, I have the water company reading as:

Nitrate MIN 3.06 AVG 9.05 MAX 13.2 mg NO3/l

Yes, I'm using an API kit, expiry 2022.
As for bottle shaking, I can confirm my arm is absolutely aching from the 30 second vigorous shaking of bottle #2 both before adding 10 drops and then the further 1 minute of shaking once #2 10 drops have gone in before leaving for 5 mins to read the value.

I've just done fresh tap water and tank water test, (I'm proper knackered now

) Photos of both are attached. As you can see its not exactly 0, but then again its not exactly 5ppm either, I wasn't too sure if I could read it as 2.5ppm, so as its closer to 0 than 5, I've just logged it as 0.

If it is the plants neutralising the ammonia and the fish not creating enough, dare I say, could I be off for a trip to the local aquarium shop to select my 2nd batch of friends?

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #84 on:** September 12, 2018, 07:04:34 AM »

Quote from: fcmf on September 11, 2018, 10:24:03 PM

Happy birthday!

Great also about the fish's developments and your children's sharing of the enjoyment.

Ha, thanks @fcmf not my birthday though, the little fella on the left in the photo was 8. Very happy with his new fishes!

Sue · « **Reply #85 on:** September 12, 2018, 09:59:54 AM »

Try holding the tube against the card rather than in front of it - you'll find the colour looks a bit deeper. Based on the photo it looks to be 5 ppm, but I am well aware that laptop screens don't always show accurate colours.

Wait till you've had a week of zero ammonia and nitrite then get the next batch of fish. You do have some bacteria but we don't know how many so take it slow. The children do have fish, so you can afford to be cautious from now on.

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #86 on:** September 12, 2018, 12:43:08 PM »

Yep, makes sense @Sue thanks. Happy enough as we are for now anyway, Will keep monitoring the water and see where we are same time next week. I'll tweak my reading of the Nitrate and potentially the others and see how that effects the readings with the tube pressed against the card.

Sue · « **Reply #87 on:** September 12, 2018, 01:50:41 PM »

Just realised I didn't say to hold the tube against the white part of the card

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #88 on:** September 12, 2018, 03:53:48 PM »

Yeah, kinda guessed that one.

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #89 on:** September 14, 2018, 07:30:45 PM »

Another few days of readings and things haven't really changed much, although as you can see from the photo, the nitrate levels are a more definite 5ppm by the looks of it. Still 0 on Ammonia and Nitrite which seems consistent with the view that the plants are taking out the small amount that the fish are producing.
Should I be doing a water change over the weekend even with the readings showing no real issues?

Sue · « **Reply #90 on:** September 14, 2018, 07:47:07 PM »

With just the few fish you have, I would do a water change but maybe only 20 to 25%. Once the tank is fully stocked you'll need to do 50% a week.

Two reasons - it's not just nitrate we need to remove but everything excreted and secreted by the fish. These are not broken down by bacteria or taken up by plants and they build up in the water. Nitrate is just an indicator that water changes need to be done, but if plants are using the ammonia, you can't use nitrate as a guide.
And it also gets you in the habit of doing weekly water changes

Don't feed the fish before a water change as it is not good to chase fish with full stomachs round the tank with a siphon tube. Feed them afterwards.

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #91 on:** September 14, 2018, 07:55:06 PM »

Thanks Sue. Will sort out a 25% water change tomorrow and see what I can scoop up with the syphon

In terms of my cycle, does it look like its frozen? i.e. Plants cancelling out the amount of fish I have?

Sue · « **Reply #92 on:** September 14, 2018, 08:10:32 PM »

When there are a lot of plants - more than you have looking at your tank photos - there can be enough plants to remove all the ammonia made by a fully stocked tank. In this scenario, a few bacteria grow but not many.
In your case, you don't have enough plants (yet?) to remove all the ammonia that your tank will make when fully stocked, so your tank will grow bacteria and make nitrate as you get more and more fish.
But with just a few cherry barbs you do have enough plants and they use the ammonia faster than the bacteria can take it up. Your plants are beating your bacteria to all the ammonia made by the barbs and there is none left for the bacteria to turn into nitrate. There needs to be more ammonia in the water than the plants can take up before you start growing any more bacteria than the mature media and Tetra Safe Start have already put in your tank.

I would get the next species of fish soon. When the bacteria in the mature media/TSS get starved of ammonia they will start to go dormant, and the longer they are dormant the longer it takes them to 'wake up' again. If left a long time, it can take as long for the bacteria to 'wake up' as it takes for cycling in the first place. So if you wait too long between batches of fish you risk losing the benefit of the mature media/TSS.

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #93 on:** September 14, 2018, 08:52:58 PM »

Ok, so its looks like I'm better off getting some new fish this weekend. Just need to work out which ones from my list are in stock and how many to add. Would you recommend I go with double the amount I have now or equivalent based on the adult size of the fish, e.g. Cherries 5cm each x 8 = 40cm current, so go with another 40cm so I'd have 80cm of adult sized fish if that makes sense? Might help with my aggressive Cherry barb if there is a few bigger fish in there so bring him down a peg or 2 !

Sue · « **Reply #94 on:** September 14, 2018, 09:10:12 PM »

Looking at your wish list in your signature, I'd go for a shoal of harlequins next.

You may find it tricky to source headstanders, in which case you'll need a plan B. I would add the gourami and apistos/kribs after the shoaling fish. And neons need a mature tank.

Plan B could be a different shoaling species or bigger shoals of barbs, harlies and neons

I must admit that having spent years in the "minimum numbers of lots of species" camp, I'm now in the "larger shoals of a just a few species" camp

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #95 on:** September 14, 2018, 10:31:20 PM »

Great, thanks for the advice again Sue.

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #96 on:** September 17, 2018, 09:43:21 PM »

Latest update on my cycle. Not much change to report, I'm still smashing out the shaking on every test I do so I'm pretty sure the measurements are spot on. 8 new Penguin Tetra have now been in for a couple of days too. Not too sure what to make of the results.

Sue · « **Reply #97 on:** September 17, 2018, 09:51:47 PM »

Concentrate on ammonia and nitrite. As long as they stay at zero everything is fine. Nitrate is the least important of the three, and provided you do regular water changes you can ignore it. I don't have a nitrate tester and haven't for years. But I have ammonia, nitrite and pH.

Bazza2000 · « **Reply #98 on:** September 23, 2018, 08:24:06 PM »

Quick update on my readings. Still no change after adding the 8 penguin tetras last week. I'm doing 30% water changes each week although it doesn't appear needed. Based on the results, would it be okay to add more fish next week?

Sue · « **Reply #99 on:** September 23, 2018, 08:40:43 PM »

Yes, you can add more fish. As long as ammonia and nitrite stay at zero, you can get another batch of fish a week after this next batch.

You do need to do the water changes. We can measure very few things that end up in the water. Ammonia and nitrite are necessary because any level of those above zero can kill fish. Nitrate needs to be measured because levels above 20 ppm have long term impact on fish health. But there are a lot more things, those things excreted and secreted by the fish, which also build up, and we can't measure them. In a tank with no live plants, nitrate will increase between water changes, and this can be used as an indicator that other things are building up as well. But when there are live plants in a tank, the plants use the ammonia made by the fish; they don't turn ammonia into nitrite or nitrate so nitrate does not build up when the tank is planted. But we still have to do water changes to remove the other, non-measurable chemicals.

Once the tank is fully stocked, you will need to do weekly 50% water changes regardless of the nitrate level.

Once upon a time I worked in a hospital chemical pathology lab. We tested urine for all sorts of things, and fish will excrete similar, if not the same, chemicals. Then there are hormones secreted by the fish to add in to the mix. These all need to be kept to a minimum level.

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1 Week Fishless Cycle With Mature Media Then Fish-in Recommendations

1 Week Fishless Cycle With Mature Media Then Fish-in Recommendations

Author Topic: 1 week Fishless cycle with mature media then Fish-in recommendations (Read 17249 times) 119 replies

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