Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Tanks and Equipment => Topic started by: fishtales on January 20, 2020, 09:22:52 PM
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Hi guys. I would really appreciate any help you can give me. I will need to get an RO system asap. There seems a lot to choose from, so advice will be gratefully received. Thanks
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Hi Fishtales, Can you remind us whether this hardness is a temporary measure while works are underway or whether it's permanent? (Sorry- using my phone to type this and can't easily look back through old posts.)
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You could also use rainwater, after filtering for a day or so through PolyFilter...
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I know you are very busy at the moment, but your help regarding RO systems would be greatly appreciated.
Hi @fishtales
Gosh, Northumbrian Water are making life very difficult for fishkeepers, aren't they? This may seem like an odd question but how far are you from Newcastle?
JPC
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Also advice on how best to use it in the aquarium would be helpful too.
Is it possible to get a decent one within £80.00?
I saw this one on ebay. The seller has 100% feedback on over 30,000 sales, so seems reliable and trustworthy
5 Stage RO and DI resin (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Stage-RO-DI-resin-50-100-150GPD-reverse-osmosis-water-filter-system-aquarium/282667696158?hash=item41d04ec01e:m:mc7dIRYO8qSjgJ_W-W8S5qQ)
Or this from same seller. I don't know how many stages I need
4 Stage RO unit (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Stage-Aquatic-Reverse-Osmosis-System-RO-Unit-with-refillable-DI-100gpd/263510258299?hash=item3d5a6f727b:g:kZMAAOSwcO1aj1Gb)
Hi @fishtales
One of the potential problems with RO systems is the throughput rate. Plus, you have large tanks so you need a lot of (remineralized?) RO water. Even if your domestic water pressure seems high, it may not be sufficient to get the throughput of RO water that you need. Sometimes, it is necessary to add a booster pump. That is likely to push you over your budget.
My thoughts at the moment are to get RO water within reasonable distance from you. I seem to recall that you are unable to leave the house. Am I correct? What about your 'other half'?
JPC
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I finally got a proper response from Northumbrian Water today. It's not good. They have stated my water is 23 dGH. Obviously this is not good for my fish at all.
Hi @fishtales
I've never kept Clown Loaches and I seem to recall that this is what you keep? Are you sure that 23 dGH is too high for them? Is this what you are currently measuring in your tank(s)? I see from Fishbase that the normal GH range is 5 - 12 dGH. But fish do adapt to different water conditions from their natural habitat.
It's just that you are limited by your available, practical options. @Hampalong suggested rainwater - this may still be worth considering.
I need to be offline now for a good few hours.
Good luck!
JPC
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I was really hoping getting an RO system installed would be doable.
My thoughts were this would allow me to do 50% water changes with 25% RO water and 25% tap water, therefore halving my water hardness.
This would mean I would need to collect 100ltrs a week for the big tank and 30ltrs for the small tank. So over a 7 day period that would require me being able to run 20ltrs a day from an RO system in the house.
Hi @fishtales
OK, that's good. We now have some figures to work on. I will check with a friend what throughput he gets from his RO setup. But, it may take 24 hours to get a response.
I'll report back as soon as I have further information.
JPC
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But fish do adapt to different water conditions from their natural habitat.
Some do, but not all by any means. It puts permanent stress on their osmotic system, which some can’t handle. This is usually a chronic condition, so you won’t notice anything wrong, but if the parameters are too different for them to handle the fish will be prone to disease, and some die prematurely.
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But fish do adapt to different water conditions from their natural habitat.
Some do, but not all by any means. It puts permanent stress on their osmotic system, which some can’t handle. This is usually a chronic condition, so you won’t notice anything wrong, but if the parameters are too different for them to handle the fish will be prone to disease, and some die prematurely.
Hi Folks,
Thanks, @Hampalong, for qualifying my inaccurate statement. I agree 100% with what you have said. Good to know that someone is keeping an eye on me!
JPC
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Hi @fishtales
As your immediate priority is to reduce GH, I remembered that @Littlefish has some experience with Pozzani water filters. Please take a look at the following thread. @Sue makes some interesting comments about the Pozzani hardness filter:
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-tanks-and-equipment/nitrate-removal-products/msg41349/#msg41349
Here is a link to the relevant product:
https://www.pozzani.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=184
I have no experience of using these filters.
JPC
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I did a DIY test on my water pressure. I ran 1.9lt of water in a 6 second period. Apparently this means I have good/high water pressure.
@fishtales from a plumbing perspective you should be getting at least 9lpm (litres per minute) to your home. On water pressure can buy accurate testers such as this one:
Neish Tools Mains Water Pressure Gauge 0-10bar 3/4 BSP Fitting https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01JOZL7X0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Pa.jEb1WBM7FT
If you’re able to get under your sink to the valve that fills the washing machine it will fit on there. In addition if your static or working pressure is too high for the units then you can install a device called a pressure reducing valve that will regulate pressure to your chosen RO/filter unit.
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Hi @fishtales
I am in touch with a local friend who has his own RO unit - just as you intend to do. I used to have an RO unit many years ago but couldn't get the throughput that I needed even for a 125 litre tank so I abandoned it. Plus, I'm now on a water meter.
I need to get some more information from this friend of mine. But, please note that he only gets 28 litres/day on a supposedly 100 litres/day setup. Moral of the story - don't take the published throughput figures at face value. I don't think he uses a booster pump but I await his answer on that.
I would have thought that water hardness will affect throughput. Our water is hard but not 23 dGH. The pre-filtration stages are very important as they remove substances before the RO membrane blocks 'stuff' at sub-micron level. RO units can even remove bacteria from the water!
I will get back to you.
JPC
P.S. What about the one shown attached? Bit too big, I guess! :rotfl:
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I wonder if this would be helpful
Membrane Upgrade Kit (https://www.ro-man.com/?product=membrane-upgrade-kit&attribute_pa_gallons-per-day=100-gpd)
Hi @fishtales
On the face of it, anything that uses the waste water makes a lot of sense. So, the upgrade kit above looks eminently sensible. I am a great believer in setting up a dialogue with any company from which I am considering making a purchase. I think it would be useful for you to do just that with the likes of RO-MAN. Give them as much information as you have provided here in this thread (including your water GH and your budgeted price). Then, see what they would suggest. Just my two penn'orth. Don't know why I didn't suggest it earlier. Yes, I do - my brain is doing tailspins!
Good luck!
JPC
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I will probably still use RO-Man as the costs are very reasonable, even if they haven't quite mastered communication!
Hi @fishtales
Based on your response from RO-MAN, I'd be looking elsewhere. Of course, finding a good supplier is always a challenge. But you now have plenty of time to look around. Here's two for starters:
https://www.h2oaquatics.co.uk/reverse-osmosis/ro-systems
https://aquamedicdirect.co.uk/product-category/water-quality/water-quality-reverse-osmosis/
Aqua Medic is a well-respected German manufacturer. The link that I have provided above is their UK store. I will also ask around for you.
JPC
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Please keep us updated on this. :)
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Hi @fishtales
Last night, I spent some time digging around about RO units, chloramine removal and tap water in general. Once I get my teeth into something, I don't let go in a hurry. And water quality is a topic that interests me greatly. So, here is a list of links, in no particular order that you and others may find of interest:
https://www.watertechonline.com/water-reuse/article/15536690/the-effects-of-hard-water-on-reverse-osmosis-filtration-systems
http://blog.watertech.com/?s=reverse+osmosis
https://www.aquacure.co.uk/aquatic
https://www.silverlineuk.co.uk
https://www.wqpmag.com/catalytic-carbon-chloramine-removal
What prompted me to do this digging is the fact that your primary reason for considering an RO system is your high water hardness. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, one could then think on the lines of a water softener. But these may add sodium to the water, which is not good for aquaria. So, the sodium then has to be removed. And so it goes on.
Whichever manufacturer or supplier you select, it's essential that you let them know your tap water GH and that the water is going to be used for keeping fish (and plants) in it. And, of course, you'll need to let them know your required throughput of water.
JPC
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Please provide information on unit & company, and let us know how easy it is to fit, etc.
Another trip to MA to collect RO this morning just reminded me how difficult it is for someone so short (me) to heave a 25L container out of the boot & into the house. Several times. :-[
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Many thanks. :)
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A quick update. I found a very helpful smaller business in Sheffield who will be supplying my unit. I am ordering it on Tuesday, so only one more water change before I can start lowering the hardness of my water :)
Hi @fishtales
I am delighted that you have found a company that meets your requirements. The fact that it is a smaller business sounds good. The larger companies are not going to be interested in we fishkeepers. We are just the small fry (pun intended!). You're much more likely to get personal service from a small company. Like @Littlefish, I would also be interested in knowing which company and product(s) you have selected.
We need to start discussing re-mineralizing salts next. Let me know when you're ready for that.
JPC
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If all goes to plan I should receive the RO system on Wednesday and start the process of mixing RO water into the tanks on Thursday :)
Hi @fishtales
Don't forget that adding RO water will not only reduce hardness but will reduce other electrolytes in the tank water. Not a problem but we need to plan for this. I guess you already have KH and GH test kits but you may want to consider getting a TDS meter/pen. I wouldn't advise getting the cheapest but you should be able to get one for less than £20. We can discuss this as soon as you wish from tomorrow.
JPC
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Thank you @jaypeecee I will definitely need your advice regarding these other water parameters. I have ordered a TDS reader, but the readings won't mean much to me, so your input will be invaluable :)
Hi @fishtales
Just let me know when the RO water starts flowing...!
BTW, does your setup include a DI (de-ionizer) stage? It's not essential.
JPC
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Exciting development! Good luck and keep us posted on how the instalment goes, etc.
:cheers:
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Hi @fishtales
So, the deed is done. Your setup sounds good. I think your decision to go with two membranes is excellent. Plus the DI stage. I seem to recall that someone is going to install it for you. I assume that you will do a test run before the actual installation? Do you already have the TDS meter? If so, I expect your tap water reading to be approximately 600 ppm. Have you done a KH test on your tap water? If so, what was the result?
I do hope everything goes well for you having been messed about by your water company.
I look forward to the progress reports.
JPC
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Hi @fishtales
Thanks for the TDS readings. I would suggest that the figure of 742 ppm doesn't quite tally with your GH and KH measurements. Based on these measurements, I would have estimated a TDS reading of 680 ppm. I believe you use the API GH and KH test kits - is that right? My experience with these two kits is that they can be trusted.
Hanna make some good water test instruments. My electronic thermometer is one of their products as is my conductivity meter. TDS meters are actually conductivity meters that convert the conductivity measurement into a TDS reading. I think some meters can give both conductivity and TDS readings. Best to stick with the devil you know.
JPC
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Thank goodness I at least have the liquid tests to give accurate hard water results. I don't understand anything about KH results at all, so was surprised it was only 12. I assumed it would be higher because of my GH reading.
Hi @fishtales
I will explain KH tomorrow. If I do it now, I may fall asleep mid-sente......! :rotfl:
JPC
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Hi @fishtales
Things have gone awfully quiet. How are you getting on? In the meantime...
KH - usually known as carbonate hardness but is more accurately known as alkalinity. KH is a measure of the water's ability to resist pH changes - usually, pH reduction. Many processes in an aquarium have the tendency to lower pH. One such example is biological filtration. Thus, KH acts as a pH stabilizer (buffer). If KH is zero, then the pH could fall to a level that would potentially harm fish and other tank inhabitants. And that includes the nitrifying bacteria whose activity is reduced at pH=6.0 and, at pH=5.5, the bacteria die. This sudden reduction in pH is often known as a 'pH crash'.
I always ensure that KH never falls below 4.0dH. This figure has served me well.
JPC
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Hi Everyone,
If you've managed to read the whole of this thread, you will probably notice that there are no replies from the OP* - namely, fishtales. But, some of the replies are included as quotes from myself and other forum members. We will never know the outcome of the OP's first post. The OP (fishtales) chose to leave the forum 'out of the blue'. And, in doing so, fishtales deleted all the posts that fishtales had made.
I can't speak for other forum members, fishtales, but I am sadddened by your abrupt decision to leave the ThinkFish family of which you had become a much-valued member. And, of course, fishtales may never read this but if that does happen, please re-consider your decision to leave without notice.
*OP = original poster
JPC