Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => General Fishkeeping advice => Topic started by: Nan on December 18, 2019, 03:45:23 PM
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Hi Folks,
Sorry for the lengthy absence, was a bit under the weather but well again now. Have an unusual question for you. As you may know, we are up here in Scotland. As things stand here now, it looks like we will be returning to the USA permanently at the end of next summer. We are very fond of our albino corys, and I'm trying to find a way to get them from here to there. I know it will cost a small fortune, but am willing to pay it.
There is only one airline I know of (West Jet) that would allow me to take them in a jar in the cabin, and that is based on info from several years ago. The TSA in the States has no problem with them going through security, but I don't know about the outbound security here in the UK. So I am hoping to find a way that we can, perhaps, send them by overnight courier - DHS or FedEx. There are no restrictions on importing corys to the USA (unfortunately Opus the Dwarf Gourami had a fatal accident getting stuck between the filter and the glass, so it's only the corys going) but I've never heard of anyone doing it. I know they ship like Shamu the Killer Whale and so assume they could handle a dozen albino corys.... Has anyone ever shipped fish internationally? Is there a service you can recommend that would do so? My daughter would be on the other end of the flight, having gone on ahead and set up an aquarium in advance in our new home. Thanks for any advice or ideas. :)
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Goodness - and we thought Littlefish had a task on her hands... ;)
Actually, I looked into this very issue for someone else a few years ago... will see if I can unearth the communication on it...
Updated to add:
I've just found an e-mail in connection with the correspondence I was having with the guy 3.5 years ago - the rest of the communication was on an about-to-close forum so it's been lost in the ether. In a nutshell, he had contacted various airlines, including Air France, American Airlines, etc, and it seemed that it was very rare for anyone to transport fish, and ultimately he made the heart-wrenching decision to leave the fish behind.
My very vague memory is that there is/was a pet-transporting facility at Heathrow and that the airline would have to fly via there if to avail of it. I also recall better the discussion he and I had about oxygen levels at that altitude and how that would work out for fish - I think that was the "crunch point" in the decision in that it would be very risky.
As for shipping/couriers, I'm afraid I have no knowledge/experience of this.
Sorry - this probably doesn't help at all!
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Hi. It does help a little bit. I know it's possible to do, and since corys have the ability to gulp air they'd be better off than "regular" tropical fish. West Jet was willing to bring our Betta (when we had one) from the USA to the UK, but it's been years since I checked on that. I know most of them that will take pets will insist they go in cargo, which I'm not keen on.
Will keep investigating and post anything I find, but if anyone knows of a way.... Thanks!
https://thefishsite.com/articles/shipping-fish-in-boxes
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It might be a case of having to contact several airlines to see which will let you carry the fish on-board. I'm guessing part of the problem is the amount of fluids, and I don't know how they get around the 100ml of fluid situation.
Another option may be courier. Perhaps contact UPS or FEDEX of similar, to see if they will deal with non-business packages. As at your LFS to see which courier delivers their stock, as they may be able to point you in the right direction of who can transport your fish.
I fully empathise with your situation, and at least my relocation is within the UK.
Best of luck. :)
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Have split original topic (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-tanks-and-equipment/need-to-buy-a-new-tank-need-recommendations) into this new thread, with appropriately named title, to avoid confusion. Moderator FCMF. C:-)
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Apparently UPS will do it. Investigating further. :D
https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-center/packaging-and-supplies/special-care-shipments/animals.page#contentBlock-11
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:cheers:
Keep us in the loop on this. I won't be the only one watching closely to see how this all goes!
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Will do. I've emailed UPS and asked the basics.
DHL won't take any live animals.
FedEx only ships live animals business-to-business. So while they'll ship Shamu, they won't ship Big Bertha. :o
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Great to hear that you have another option available with UPS. :cheers:
Let's hope that transporting Big Bertha & pals doesn't cost as much as shipping Shamu. :o
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Great news - keep us posted. :cheers:
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Oh, yeah, I do expect this to be painfully expensive. I've even considered traveling by cargo ship, and sneaking them onboard in a beer cooler..... ;)
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OK, so far UPS has said no and also said yes. (!) And sent me a link to a rather complicated page that I need to sort through some day when my brain is working better.
American Airlines will also take them as pet cargo.
So, that's doable. :)
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The UPS situation sounds a bit complicated. ::)
Having an airline that will take them as pet cargo is good to know. :)
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Yeah, I'm just not sure if with AA I have to get them to a direct flight (which I think will probably mean Manchester or Heathrow - and I'm in Glasgow!) or not. Haven't gotten that far, but working on it! :)
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Fortunately, I have a ton of American Airlines miles banked. Here's their website on transporting animals. Fish can go on any flight. https://www.aacargo.com/learn/animals.html
There are no restrictions from the USDA or Fish and Wildlife Depts. So I'm thinking they'll be on the same flight I am, in a few months.
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I wonder if it’s also worth contacting the Airport you’ll be setting off from and landing in to confirm their procedures and where you need to go to, what paperwork etc etc...
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Great news. ;D
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Hey, have you guys ever heard of these bags? Supposedly they "breathe" so as long as the bags are somewhere that gets air, the fish would get oxygen and rid of co2....
http://www.kordon.com/kordon/products/aquarium-pond-accessories-2/breathing-bags#suppliers!
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Those bags sound quite impressive. :)
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Yeah, they do! And would solve a huge problem if they are legitimately functional.
So far, the US Department of Agriculture doesn't require a permit/license for a pet fish.
The US Fish and Wildlife Service doesn't require a permit and import license for pet fish, and so they do not have to go through the "special entry port" that a fish being bought or sold would have to do.
The US Customs has no problem with them, as they are very low-value.
The state in in the USA we're going to is still to respond as to any restrictions, but I'm not expecting any.
The US TSA (the security at airports) has no problems with them. Checking the UK version of same....
Hypothetically, if the bags work, the fish could go in my carry-on-fits-under-the-seat-in-front-of-me luggage (as pretty much the only thing in it) just fine. The airline wouldn't need to know. ;)
But yes, I'd probably still make above-board arrangements with the airline and put them in like a box in a small dog kennel or something for the pet-cargo hold. 8)
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Hi @Nan
I have never used these specific bags but the science behind them is 100% sound. They are probably made from a special type of silicone. I have used a silicone semi-permeable membrane in one of my DIY projects. They are used extensively for gas exchange in a wide range of products.
JPC
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I’m not so sure this is a good idea... in a sealed bag the co2 concentration rising in the water lowers pH which in turn lowers the toxicity of ammonia. This is why many (myself included) prefer the ‘plop and drop’ method of introducing fish to limit their exposure to this toxic ammonia. I assume that it the co2 is being driven off the ammonia toxicity in the bag would not be dampened by the power pH. Interested in others view on this as I can’t claim to understand the science behind this effect...
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I’m not so sure this is a good idea... in a sealed bag the co2 concentration rising in the water lowers pH which in turn lowers the toxicity of ammonia. This is why many (myself included) prefer the ‘plop and drop’ method of introducing fish to limit their exposure to this toxic ammonia. I assume that it the co2 is being driven off the ammonia toxicity in the bag would not be dampened by the power pH. Interested in others view on this as I can’t claim to understand the science behind this effect...
Hi @Matt
I have never used these bags as I have never had the need to do so. OK, with that proviso out of the way, let's focus on the science. The whole point of these bags is that the CO2 concentration in the water should not increase*. And that's because they are breathable. So, the pH will remain essentially constant. But, if the pH drops slightly, where's the problem? As you said, the likelihood of free ammonia forming will reduce. As I suggested earlier in this thread, the bags are probably made from a type of silicone semi-permeable membrane. Therefore, CO2 diffuses out of the plastic bag and oxygen diffuses into the bag simultaneously. The theory is sound. I'm not entirely sure where your concern lies.
If this is a reputable company, they will have extensively tested this product. They are staking their reputation on it and almost certainly using them to ship very valuable fish such as Arowanas, etc. across the globe. Obviously, it makes sense for the bag and water volume to be as large as possible relative to the fish size. And, each fish should probably be individually bagged. These are details that only @Nan can decide upon.
* In order for diffusion through the semi-permeable membrane to occur, there has to be a temporary slight osmotic pressure differential between inside and outside. How big/small that difference is, I obviously don't know.
JPC
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Matt's concern is that in the typical fish shop plastic bag, fish both breathe out CO2 and excrete ammonia. The CO2 dissolves in the water making it acidic, which pushes the ammonia towards ammonium. With breathable bags, there is no CO2 build up in the water, the water will be less acidic so more ammonia will be in the ammonia form, and harmful to the fish.
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The CO2 dissolves in the water making it acidic, which pushes the ammonia towards ammonium.
Hi @Sue
Yes, but why is that a problem? I guess I may be overlooking something.
JPC
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Because we have all been told for years and years that we should not leave fish in water that contains the ammonia form for as long as it will take to get the fish to their new home.
Just how much ammonia will be in the water by the time the fish get to their destination?
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Hmmm. Interesting debate.
We are talking of the fish being in their respective bags for no more than a day (24 hours). Since breeders/vendors do ship fish around the world in bags of one sort or another, I'm thinking that having the kiddies in these bags (probably much larger size than each actually needs) and having some Prime in the water, they should be good for the trip to the airplane, the flight, the passing-through-customs, and transport of another few hours to their new home?
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Because we have all been told for years and years that we should not leave fish in water that contains the ammonia form for as long as it will take to get the fish to their new home.
Just how much ammonia will be in the water by the time the fish get to their destination?
Hi @Sue
If the pH remains constant during transit, any excreted ammonia will remain in the ammonium form, won't it? And, what then happens when the bag is opened, nothing will change, will it? I'm thinking on my feet here!
JPC
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Hi Folks,
Sorry, but my brain needs a rest. I'm going to take a break.
JPC
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Given that prime detoxifies the ammonia for 24 hours, I’d say your suggestion to use it is very sensible Nan.
Thanks for filling the chemistry gaps in my reply Sue, much appreciated!
JPC, I think it’s the other way round... To put it in different words in case it helps (and Sue please fact check this!): with a normal sealed bag the build up of co2 in the water over time will lower the pH therefore less toxic ammonium will be formed from the fish waste. In the breathable bag, co2 will not increase however the fish waste will. If the pH is higher in comparison because the co2 is able to escape, then the fish waste will be in the more toxic ammonia form.
I’m not doubting whether the product works as such, just whether a breathable bag is actually a good thing or not!! But it might be that Nan has provided the solution to get a best of both worlds. Again however, I can’t claim to understand the science behind Primes claim to reduce the toxicity of ammonia for 24 hours. It is entirely possible that the breathable bag company use something similar themselves.
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Water is H2O. It forms ions H+ and OH-. Because the numbers of ions we are dealing with are so huge, a scale was invented to reduce the numbers to something manageable - pH. At 25oC, pure water is 7.0 on the pH scale.
Ammonia combines with water to produce ammonium hydroxide NH4OH. Bases completely dissociate into their ions so the ammonium hydroxide is all NH4+ and OH-.
NH3 keeps a hydrogen ion from water to become NH4+ and this loss of H+ from the water increases pH.
Carbon dioxide CO2 dissolves in water to form carbonic acid H2CO3. This is a weak acid so it only partially dissociates into its ions CO32- and H+.
Carbon dioxide in water removes a whole water molecule but when it dissociates it keeps the OH- part and frees the H+ part, lowering pH.
Fish produce both ammonia and carbon dioxide. In a standard plastic bag, one increases pH while the other lowers it. I am not sure how much of each is produced per day by fish. In other words, if a fish is left in a standard plastic bag for 24 hours (with sufficient oxygen) would the overall effect be a reduction or a raising of pH?
In a breathable bag, the carbon dioxide is lost. But does ammonia also pass through the bag? If it does, the pH should remain fairly constant. But if it doesn't, as more ammonia is produced by the fish the pH will increase slightly and more of the ammonium will convert to ammonia.
I have been unable to find a reference as to whether ammonia passes though the bag or not.
For a duration of 24 hours, the obvious solution is to add an ammonia 'detoxifier' to the water. This could be Prime or one of the other liquid detoxifiers. Of course zeolite could also be added to the bag, but the fish would probably be damaged by something solid in the same bag.
There are other benefits to using breathable bags -
- because there's no air pocket in the bag, they take up less room, though this is offset by the fact the fish have to be bagged singly so more bags have to be used.
- there is less 'sloshing' of the bag contents because there is no air in the bag.
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In a breathable bag, the carbon dioxide is lost. But does ammonia also pass through the bag? If it does, the pH should remain fairly constant. But if it doesn't, as more ammonia is produced by the fish the pH will increase slightly and more of the ammonium will convert to ammonia.
I have been unable to find a reference as to whether ammonia passes though the bag or not.
Hi @Sue
Ammonia (NH3) does indeed pass through the bag (assuming it is a silicone). Its permeability coefficient is approximately twice that of CO2. See below:
https://permselect.com/membranes
The permeability coefficient of carbon dioxide is listed as 3250 and the permeability coefficient of ammonia is 5900, as you will see. That being the case, the pH of the water in the Kordon Breathing Bags™ should remain reasonably constant. This assumes that the bag is made from silicone.
Edit on 11 Feb 2020 at 1040: named the product in question and stressed the assumption of the bag material being a type of silicone.
JPC
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In that case, breathable bags should be fine :)
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Just a thought here. Corys need to gulp air now and then. Soooo, if I put them in the breathable bag, they won't be able to gulp. I wonder if the bags will work if they have some air in them, like a standard bag would? Otherwise they might suffocate? Guess I'll email the manufacturer to ask.
Also, for anyone who needs to know: UPS will ship fish. But only in the USA, not from the UK to the USA. And only on "overnight" deliveries. (Which is sane, really.)
I have been in contact with several airlines, and those that do accept fish have sent me to talk to their freight forwarders.
Lufthansa advertises they do pets and tropical fish as cargo, but their freight forwarder in the UK (worldcourier.com) says they do NOT do pet tropical fish. I've written back to Lufthansa for clarification. (My guess is that they do shipments of commercial tropicals, but not family pet tropicals.)
I'm still going around and around with American Airlines, as the person they told me to contact in the UK has not responded in over a week now....
United initially told me on chat they took tropical fish in their "Pet Safe" program, but it turns out that is only in the USA, not internationally.
British Airways uses IAG cargo. Who do not "do" tropical fish.
Air Canada requires pick-up and drop-off at the cargo terminals, and there are none appropriate in the UK, apparently. If there was one here, we'd have to go to Toronto to pick Big Bertha up on the other end. Which I'm willing to do, but....
Aer Lingus only allows cats and dogs, and they fly only on direct transatlantic flights. None of the short "hopper" flights to Dublin to connect with them are suitable due to the aircraft type.
WestJet allows live fish (and other pets), but not from the UK to the USA as the type of aircraft they fly on the long-haul flights are not appropriate for pets in cargo.
Delta allows live fish into the USA, as cargo, from the UK. Drop off and pick up at their cargo terminals five hours before the flight. International flights require a pet-shipper. There actually is a Delta cargo terminal in Glasgow. (!) Waiting to hear from their preferred one.
Iberia allows fish in the cabin, but only on their own flights - no codeshare. I'm still looking into this one. We may need to fly Iberia to Madrid and then from Madrid to the USA. (I'm good with that.) If they'll allow Big Bertha and the Boys (etc.) in the cabin. Or on the plane at all!
Waiting on some responses from pet-shippers who advertise tropical fish ok. (Barbican and JCS)
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You are on quite the epic adventure here just trying to figure this all out...
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Just a thought here. Corys need to gulp air now and then. Soooo, if I put them in the breathable bag, they won't be able to gulp. I wonder if the bags will work if they have some air in them, like a standard bag would? Otherwise they might suffocate? Guess I'll email the manufacturer to ask.
Hi @Nan
If an air space is retained inside the breathable bag, I would have thought that would be OK. But, it would be very wise to email Kordon. That way, you'll get a definitive answer and you'll have something in writing.
JPC
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Wow, and I thought I struggled to arrange my relocation within the UK. :o
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Apparently most of my problems arise with being a "private party". Apparently as a vendor I could ship "merchandise consisting of tropical/ornamental fish".
I am checking about getting an import license ($50) in the USA. Not sure what I'd have to do in the UK to be a "business" as far as the shipping agencies are concerned, though. Yet.
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Yeah, I finally heard back from the one pet-shipper. They want over £1,200 to ship 10 albino corys from Glasgow to New York. In one box.
Uh huh.
Am now seriously checking out the "trade" shipping option. It's only $50 for US import license. Will need to see what sort of hoops are needed on the UK side. I anticipate more insanity.
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I really do hope that there's a suitable solution for you. Fingers crossed!
[If not, though, then at least it might be of some small consolation that you've explored every possibility. In the event it comes to considering alternatives, and again I hope it doesn't have to come to this, I wondered if it might be worth getting in touch with https://centralaquaristsociety.co.uk/ - I see there's a mention of someone who has a specific interest in cories and who might have contacts willing to give your gang a good home. Failing that, there is www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk where you can advertise for the area you live in, and www.preloved.co.uk (where there's even a recent advert where someone from your area is looking for any fish that need rehomed and is prepared to travel).]
Keep us posted...
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Yeah, it's not looking good. They really discriminate against pet fish. Pet cats, dogs, even bunnies are just peachy. But apparently fish are not....
So. If we fly out of Madrid direct to the USA on Iberian, it ~looks~ like the fish could ride in the passenger compartment. I'd have to figure out how to get the fish to Madrid, though. I ~think~ Vueling will allow fish in the passenger compartment. So we'd have to take the bus to Edinburgh Airport, then hop on the Vueling to Barcelona, the figure out how to get to Madrid, and then get on an Iberian to the USA.
I'm also checking going to another country by ferry or chunnel to see if there's an airline flying out of one of them that'll take BB & the Boys without having to go cargo. (Or that would let me drop them off at the cargo depot, rather than using a pet shipper. On the other end I'd have to get the waybill, go to customs, get cleared, then back to the cargo depot to get them. That could be complicated if the airport is not close to the cargo depot or customs....)
Yeah, it may be that they just need to go to a good home. We still have a few months, so I'll keep trying, of course, but once we are literally on the move if anything goes wrong along the way - one officious paper-pusher says "I don't care that they were already approved, they're not flying" - and we'd be up a creek without a paddle.
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I really do hope that there's a suitable solution for you. Fingers crossed!
[If not, though, then at least it might be of some small consolation that you've explored every possibility. In the event it comes to considering alternatives, and again I hope it doesn't have to come to this, I wondered if it might be worth getting in touch with https://centralaquaristsociety.co.uk/ - I see there's a mention of someone who has a specific interest in cories and who might have contacts willing to give your gang a good home. Failing that, there is www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk where you can advertise for the area you live in, and www.preloved.co.uk (where there's even a recent advert where someone from your area is looking for any fish that need rehomed and is prepared to travel).]
Keep us posted...
Hi. I have checked preloved and I am not seeing the advert for someone in my area. I do see one for someone down by London, but I'm up in Scotland (Glasgow).... Can you tell me where you saw that, please?
Appreciate it.
EDIT: Duh! I found it, nevermind!
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I'm also checking going to another country by ferry or chunnel to see if there's an airline flying out of one of them that'll take BB & the Boys without having to go cargo.
but once we are literally on the move if anything goes wrong along the way - one officious paper-pusher says "I don't care that they were already approved, they're not flying" - and we'd be up a creek without a paddle.
Amsterdam/KLM may be worth checking.
I agree completely, though, that there are lots of risks such as the one you describe plus standard delays and other unknowns.
The Pre-loved advert sounds like it's a tartan/kilted version of Littlefish with multiple tanks - sounds a promising option.
Keep us posted.
:cheers:
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The Pre-loved advert sounds like it's a tartan/kilted version of Littlefish with multiple tanks - sounds a promising option.
:rotfl:
In the past I've traveled from Cambridge to Portsmouth (I think, or somewhere south coast) to pick up some pre-loved fish to re-home due to the owner moving. @fcmf those were the dwarf puffers that I think you may have alerted me to. I took the trip via somewhere near Dartford to drop some stuff to a girl from the axolotl forum, so it was a whole day of aquatic errands.
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@fcmf those were the dwarf puffers that I think you may have alerted me to.
Yes - I remember that well; so glad it worked out well for them (the previous owners who were gutted at having to part with them, and for the fish going to your good home) and for you!
:cheers:
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This evening I admit that I checked out the drive time from Sandhurst to Glasgow, you know, just out of interest.
I have also just sent an email to the guys that relocated my gang from Cambridge. I've given a brief overview of the Scotland to USA relocation issues, to see if they could offer any advice, or if they knew of anyone in the industry that was based in Scotland, or specifically deals with international relocation. I'm not hopeful that there is an easy solution to this problem, but I just though I'd ask. They were awesome with my relocation, and you never know who they might know that may be able to help. :)
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Thanks so much!
If I can't take them, though, I do want to see that they go to a good home and would give the tank and equipment with them so that they'd be staying in their "home".
:yikes: I looked at the adverts for people wanting fish to re-home and have to wonder what Big Bertha, etc., would be fed to! I get reeeeeally bad vibes off of that advert (the Glasgow one).
It's quite a jog from Sandhurst to Glasgow by car (6 and a half hours??). In a pinch, if you are interested in them and I'm not able to take them home to the USA with us, there's always me on the train with them in breather bags in a beer cooler! ;) 8)
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I really do hope that there's a suitable solution for you. Fingers crossed!
[If not, though, then at least it might be of some small consolation that you've explored every possibility. In the event it comes to considering alternatives, and again I hope it doesn't have to come to this, I wondered if it might be worth getting in touch with https://centralaquaristsociety.co.uk/ - I see there's a mention of someone who has a specific interest in cories and who might have contacts willing to give your gang a good home. Failing that, there is www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk where you can advertise for the area you live in, and www.preloved.co.uk (where there's even a recent advert where someone from your area is looking for any fish that need rehomed and is prepared to travel).]
Keep us posted...
Hi. So I don't do Facebook and I am not able to find anything on the central aquarists society FB public page about how to contact them. (There's a big banner wanting me to sign up to FB that keeps obscuring most of what I'm trying to read.) Can someone who uses FB kindly check to see if there is any sort of email address on that site for me? I would very much appreciate your help.
Thanks.
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Can only be brief (apologies):
* Pre-loved advert's downside is its lack of detail - maybe worth contacting?
* for non-FB users, just need to click on "not now" and can see the full website - but don't see e-mail address;
* quick google for CAS and found this with contact details of CAS's treasurer http://www.tartanguppy.co.uk/information/contact.html
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The owner of the company that relocated my gang has said that he'll make a few phone calls, though feels he may draw a blank. You never know though, fingers crossed. :)
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Thanks. :D
It's pretty insane. There are no legal or paperwork requirements in the USA for bringing the guys in, other than declaring at customs that they are worth about $1 each, which is well below the amount at which any sort of duty would kick in. There are no vet certs required either to leave the UK or enter the USA. The fish are not prohibited. That one company charging £1,300 for basically a shoebox with some fish in it.... that's robbery!
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Wow. :o
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Yeah.
Just heard from Finnair. No luck - have to use a freight forwarder. So its:
American ... I'm STILL waiting to hear from their Glasgow office. But I'd have to be sure it wasn't codeshare with BA. My expectation is no.
Air France - dogs and cats only.
Aer Lingus - no go. Except as cargo. And I'd have to take the train to another city where the larger AL planes land, as they can't put the fish in the puddlejumpers as cargo.
Aeroflot - no
AeroMexico - only pets on flights of six hours or less
Agean - fish ok as pets in hold, don't do cargo to the USA.
Air China - cats and dogs only
AIr New Zealand - pet shipper.
Alitalia - dogs and cats only.
ANA - no fish
Brussels Air - cargo. pet shipper
Delta - cargo. Requires a pet shipper.
El Al - checking. They allow birds in the cabin....
Finnair - They allow rodents in the cabin.... No, have to go cargo and require a shipper.
Iceland Air - no
Japan Airlines - pet shipper
KLM - only cats and dogs
Korean air - no
LOT - need to contact, website unclear
Lufthansa - pet shipper
Norwegian Air - no pets.
Quantas - pet shipper
Swiss AIr - pet shipper
Transat - dogs and cats only
TUI - dogs and cats only.
SAS - no
Singapore Airline (flys out of Manchester or London) - they take fish as "cargo pets" - that translates to "cargo" requiring a pet shipper.
United - cargo. Requires a pet shipper.
West Jet - no
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Some friends moved from Scotland to USA ~16 years ago with a whole menagerie of pets (rabbits, reptiles of numerous sorts, etc). I got in touch with them and their reply was "From what I remember of the process, it was expensive and involved some paperwork. I seem to remember that the plane ticket for the animals cost more than ours! We had to pack them up in a very specific way per the regulations. The animals flew British Airways, I recall. I think it depends on whether the animals are on the CITES list or not as to how they have to be documented." I notice you don't have BA on your list but numerous regulations have probably come in since then, and BA almost always codeshares with other airlines (from what I can gather), so I'm not sure how helpful this is likely to be to you, @Nan, but thought I'd mention it anyway.
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Some friends moved from Scotland to USA ~16 years ago with a whole menagerie of pets (rabbits, reptiles of numerous sorts, etc). I got in touch with them and their reply was "From what I remember of the process, it was expensive and involved some paperwork. I seem to remember that the plane ticket for the animals cost more than ours! We had to pack them up in a very specific way per the regulations. The animals flew British Airways, I recall. I think it depends on whether the animals are on the CITES list or not as to how they have to be documented." I notice you don't have BA on your list but numerous regulations have probably come in since then, and BA almost always codeshares with other airlines (from what I can gather), so I'm not sure how helpful this is likely to be to you, @Nan, but thought I'd mention it anyway.
Thanks, yeah, I'd checked BA early on. No dice.
The process to bring mammals into the UK is brutal. :o You have to bring them in through only Heathrow, I think. (Unless you fly into some other EU country like France and then drive them across through the chunnel to save the money.) There are vet certificates, and all sorts of immunizations and test results that have to happen before they get on the plane. There used to be a 3 month quarantine once they got here - not sure if that's still the case or not - on top of that, and it had to be at an approved facility. (I had looked at moving over here about 20 years ago and had a pet cat at the time.) And mammals back to the USA... not as bad, as the UK is considered a "rabies free" country. Most airlines require a health-check, but that's about it.
CITES shipments are a whole 'nuther level of complex, yes. (Amazing what I've learned about moving animals around the world while trying to find out how to get our fish home.) And then there are shipments of animals of all varieties via an EU country. Where EU regs kick in.
The big problem with sending them "cargo" is that while "pet" fish theoretically should just be able to sit in a shoebox under the seat in front of me in the cabin, with no paperwork or intervention required, "Animal Cargo" has all sorts of requirements, including Vet inspections, special paperwork, etc., etc., etc. It's the pet-shippers/cargo company that jack up the prices, not the airline. The cost to have a pet in the pet baggage hold is a couple of hundred pounds, pretty much, across the board. But once it becomes "cargo".... £1,300.
Now, if I lived near an Air Canada facility I could take the fish directly to the Air Canada freight center and drop them off. And if there was an Air Canada facility in the USA near when we'd be I could go to that place and get their paperwork, take it to the US customs office, get it stamped, and then take it back and pick up the fish.
Unfortunately, there's not an Air Canada freight facility in the UK, apparently. And the closest one on the other end is Toronto. Which I'd be willing to fly into, pick the kiddies up, and hop an Amtrak down to the States and carry on from there.
So, still trying.
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Iberia Airlines. As long as I'm flying on an Iberia-flagged flight (not a code-share), there can be fish in the cabin!!!!!!
Of course, I find a solution and look what happens to all international travel. ::)
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Your timing is impeccable. ;)
Though probably easier to transport a fish than a human at the moment. ::)
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Ain't it, though? :o
I have to think that this is actually not doable, because I'd have to get to Madrid to catch an Iberia flight. And then get slapped into a two week quarantine when we landed.
We are looking to adopt the fish out. Obviously, we now have much more time in which to do so. My daughter is checking among her circle to see if anyone wants the full tank setup with fish. It's not looking really promising at present. It will be nice to have them for company, at least, if our household has to go into full lockdown next week (I think they are going to tell old people to stay home) or if illness strikes. They are cheerful, happy little fish and give us many hours of joy watching them.
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So, now that all of the corys are in the big tank, with the small tank packed for the move back, they're having a great time. So great that they are breeding en masse every couple of weeks. It's kind of epic when they all start at once. :o It looks like the fish that were in the little tank were all females and they are now mature enough to breed. I guess that makes me a fishy great-grandmother now? Big Bertha and the Boys are still doing well.
We are still stuck in Glasgow. And it looks like we will be for some time, since the USA is actually behind the curve we have here. So things will get better here before they get better there. How I'm ever going to find movers... but that's all to deal with later!
I have been able to find a bottled water that has a pretty decent mineral content (Highland Spring Water) and so I add a couple of litres of that to the tank after I've had to vacuum out the eggs, to kind of supplement what is not really in much of a supply here in our drinking water. The fish are thriving. :D The one that lived out the first month or two of it's life in the filter is still with us.
Hope you folks are all well and staying safe.
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A bit of an update on this topic.
The fish have relocated from Glasgow today and are currently exploring a quarantine tank in the Littlefish household.
I had a lovely trip to Edinburgh, where I met @fcmf for a chat, before I headed out along the waterfront for dinner. Friday required a trip to the Edinburgh Royal Botanic Gardens, before I drove on to Glasgow.
This morning I collected the fish from @Nan and we started our long journey south. They were transported in a stack box inside a large polybox, with a battery operated air pump & some filter media from their tank. We got home early evening and they were acclimatised to their temporary tank.
Sorry the pics are a bit rubbish, but I didn't want to put the tank lights on during their first evening, so I've just used the room lights.
The quarantine tank is a bit smaller than this gang are used to, though the ultimate goal is to move them into a larger 200L tank with Bertie the BN, the gold stripe corys, lemon tetra, glass bloodfins & various shrimp & snails.
Fingers crossed that this adorable gang settle in their new home. :)
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Such a good outcome to this story - those fish are very lucky to have had such a dedicated fishkeeper willing to make a journey of that distance to collect them. [The Proclaimers' 500 Miles song could have some of the lyrics re-written specifically for your trip. :rotfl:] Their quarantine tank looks great, and I'm sure they'll be even more delighted when they ultimately upgrade into their 5*-luxury accommodation.
Great to meet you and glad that you had a good time as well as a successful 'rehoming/rescue operation' for the fish. I'm sure Nan will feel delighted that they've gone to such a good home, and a huge weight off her mind when focusing on her relocation to the USA.
:fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
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So pleased to hear this. Yes indeed, those are some lucky fish :)
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Such a good outcome to this story - those fish are very lucky to have had such a dedicated fishkeeper willing to make a journey of that distance to collect them. [The Proclaimers' 500 Miles song could have some of the lyrics re-written specifically for your trip. :rotfl:] Their quarantine tank looks great, and I'm sure they'll be even more delighted when they ultimately upgrade into their 5*-luxury accommodation.
Great to meet you and glad that you had a good time as well as a successful 'rehoming/rescue operation' for the fish. I'm sure Nan will feel delighted that they've gone to such a good home, and a huge weight off her mind when focusing on her relocation to the USA.
:fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
You have no idea! ;D ;D And so thankful to Littlefish for driving all that distance.
It was pretty amazing how quickly and easily she gathered the kiddies up, too! I thought we'd spend a good half-hour trying to catch them all and she had them out of the tank in under five minutes, with minimal stress to them all.
Now all we have to hope is that the UK doesn't go into another lockdown before the movers can come collect our stuff. And that nothing weirder happens than is already going on arises at the other end of the journey (where we'll be in a hotel for two weeks quarantining before we can house-hunt).
So good to see Big Bertha and the boys, and everyone....
Thanks again, Donna.
(oh, hell... that song. It's stuck in my mind again.... :o )
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Quite a bit more activity in the tank today, and everyone has eaten.
The neon tetra has a bit more colour back, and even the algae eater is spending more time towards the front of the tank. The corys are pottering all over the place.
It will be good the get them into a larger tank next month, and I'm sure they'll get on with Bertie the BN, and the other corys & tetras. :)
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Brilliant!
Loving the update, and the photos too. :cheers:
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Such a great story and great to show the power of the forum too! Keep us posted :)
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Littlefish, Thanks again for taking the fishies for us. It was hard to leave them behind, but it's such a relief knowing they are in a good home. And seeing the photos is really lovely, thanks for doing that.
We made it over with minor glitches, did our two-week quarantine, spent a week house-hunting, and are now in our new place with almost floor-to-ceiling packing boxes (which arrived on Friday). I had packed our tank myself, rather than letting the movers near it, and it seems to have survived the ocean voyage and all the truck travel.
I'm going to re-seal all the joints before we set it back up again, just to be safe. It's going to be several weeks before we can begin that process, though. Of course, then I want more albino corys, but my daughter wants to get several female betta fish! So we'll have to sort that out, one way or the other. ::)
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Great you've arrived safely on the other side of the pond, @Nan - I was hoping we'd get an update. It sounds like all has gone well so far, glad that the tank is in one piece, and I'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone that we'll all be looking forward to hearing of the tank developments once it's re-sealed and re-cycled.
:cheers:
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Great to hear that you have arrived safely and found a new place to live. Best of luck with settling in and also getting your tank up an running again.
Your gang are all still doing well here. Work has been busy so I haven't set up the big tank yet, but eventually everyone will get moved and pics will be uploaded.
:cheers:
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Just a quick update on this, after I adopted the gang from @Nan
The gang were moved to their larger tank a few weeks ago, and introduced to Bertie (lemon bristlenose), gold stripe corys, lemon tetra, glass bloodfin tetra, amano shrimp & nerite snails.
Sorry @Matt after all the time you spent helping me to aquascape various tanks, but with this one I've regressed to just having a very practical layout with lots of hiding places for Bertie, and very easy plants that will probably survive being rearranged by the BN & corys on a regular basis, and don't need much maintenance.
I still haven't finished planting the tank as work is very busy. The company I work for manufactures diagnostic test kits (including Covid tests) so you can imagine how busy the past 12 months have been, and we are still working hard.
I just thought I'd post a few pics so Nan could see some of her fish, and I'll post more as/when I get the tank fully planted.
Big Bertha seems happy to have managed to get an entire wafer, while some of the other corys practise their synchronised cucumber nibbling. The large piece of wood which was relocated with the adopted fish has become a firm favorite with Bertie, who has found a very comfortable end to settle on, while the albino and gold strip corys do laps of the tank together. The moss on the wood had a bit of a "quarantine haircut" recently, but it's all growing back now. ::)
Unfortunately the lone neon tetra passed a while back, but the oto is still going strong. I need to increase my numbers of tetra, and when the tank matures I'll look at getting the oto some friends too.
I hope to find the time & energy to finish the tank & post pics over the next few weeks. :)
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Bertie & the corys
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Another one of Bertie in his new favourite spot.
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Good pics! That manzanita wood you got was so epic, it can wait though!! :cheers:
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:)
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Great to see the photos and read the updates - thanks, @Littlefish. Hopefully @Nan will be pleased to see them too. Bertie looks hilarious :cheers:.
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Hey - It's been over a year now since I posted here. Time is just rocketing by. :o
I wanted to take a moment to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happier New Year! And once again thank Littlefish for taking in our brood. We very much miss Big Bertha and the boys - we were just talking about them while we were in the pet store today. I'm so glad they went to such a good home.
Things are going well in the States for us (as much as can be expected, given "things") and our new Betta, Donny, is still happily swimming around trying to look surly. He got upset at something several months ago and darted - right into a rock. He literally knocked himself out, and apparently damaged his jaw. He survived, but now has a decidedly odd mouth. It still works, he's still eating, he still seems happy, but he looks like an old prize fighter! Life goes on....
You folks stay safe and well.
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Merry Christmas and happy new year to you too. Stay safe and well too - something I’ll also wish everyone - I’m sure this sentiment means more to many people at the moment given “things” as you put it!
Poor Donny with his jaw - the visual of an old prize fighter made me chuckle though I must admit!!
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Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. :cheers:
Great to hear from you and it's good to know Donny is going strong in spite of his incident.
Your gang are still comfortable sharing the tank with Bertie and the others. This evening several of them are gathered in one corner and appear to be watching the tv. ;D
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Ah, yeah, they like to watch the tv. We always thought it odd that they seemed to really like "River Monsters", but they'd be there in the corner all lined up watching.... :rotfl:
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Best wishes for the festive season to you too, @Nan. Glad all is going well for you in the USA. Donny sounds quite a character.