Lighting....... (Im So Sorry!)...... Particularly LEDs

Oh dear    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For anyone joining in mid-conversation, I have copied below the two posts Im replying to. From experience, lighting seems to be quite a controversial (and bloomin scientific!) subject so this thread may get lengthy....... and complicated   

I warn you in advance that trying to educate me on this subject will be extremely painful for you. Ask SteveS!

One word of “worry” from my side – do not rush with the full LED “thingy” as yet when you have plants. I have read tons about it and so far I personally would not be in a hurry to use only LED’s for plants. I am waiting for the LED technology to progress... T5’s are the light of choice at the moment.  Combination of the two – fluorescent and LED – works fine (my husband’s tank proves it). This tank has exactly one T8 and an LED strip. This combination works really well – a little bit of shimmer effect, natural colours and the plants are doing great.  I know the Kelvins are confusing...  Everything which says “daylight” is good, to my opinion. I am not sure about “advertising” of some Companies on the Forum but if you want, I can PM you the details of an online retailer you can buy your bulbs from – much cheaper than branded aquarium bulbs, they do the job just fine...
I was surprised how much yellow Pseudomugil Gertrudae are – with just daylight bulbs they look superb.

You've thrown me Natalia. I remember Don buying TMC GroBeams for his tank and his plants grew like never before. Thick, lush - just what we all desire! I think that may have been what started me wanting LEDs. I have recently read (elsewhere) that LEDs are not as good as T5s (for plants) and so are really only a replacement for T8s. In the debate, someone even commented that (in their opinion) LEDs aren't any better than T8s - probably about the same.

Yes I would very much appreciate details of an online retailer thankyou (I assume you mean T8s?).

Your husbands tank has one T8 flourescent and one LED strip.... Do you mean he has a T8 ballast that takes two T8 tubes, but in one of them has an LED strip instead? Im intrigued because Ive been wondering if thats possible to do. My front tube has gone in my 3ft tank and Ive been wondering if I can put an Arcadia LED strip in its place whilst the back strip remains a T8 flourescent?
Incidentally, at the moment Im interested to see if my anubias nana fairs better without the front light - its planted at the front and suffers Green Spot Algae.

Chucklett, in brief and very simple terms, blue light makes fish look more vibrant and plants tend to prefer red light, though more importantly they like lots of it. This can be compared to radio stations, with blue and red at opposite ends of the dial and plants liking it loud! Plants will do better with any station as long as it is loud and isn't totally blue. How much they like red stations over blue is a matter for debate. White is made up of both blue and red (can think of it as being in the middle of the dial). LEDs tend to have quite a narrow bandwidth - less of each of blue and red, which is why they're not considered so good for plants (less red and less loud).

Terms used for lighting: cool means it has more blue. Warm has more red.

I try to set my two tubes up so the warmer one is at the back (along with red LEDS) and the cooler one is at the front so my cardinal tetras look nice and bright. (Hagen have names for the different colours that confuses me, so I may not have the tubes that way around after I've thrown the boxes away!)

Hope that's a simple enough explanation that doesn't start another long conversation! 

Love it Helen  I can follow that thankyou!!!




Heres the plot my end:

Both my tanks have 2 x T8 lights. One Hagen AquaGlo and one Hagen PowerGlo. One allegedly better for plant growth the other for fish colour. We have ascertained that the fish in my 4ft tank are not showing their true colours and Im putting this down to my lights. If thats the case, then it would suggest the fish in my 3ft tank should also be more vibrant. Of course, I wouldnt know any different having only seen them in my tank! Ive always thought they look gorgeous!

On the old forum, I looked at changing my lights when I discovered T8s are only really any good for "low light" plants. Changing to T5s is an absolute no-go as that would mean changing the ballast - way beyond my capabilities. And so my heart got set on LEDs. Since then, Ive found other positive reasons to change to LEDs:

1. They are cooler..... I have to put a fan on my tank during the summer to keep the water temp down.

2. They do not need a reflector strip.... Mine are so bent out of shape from the heat of the lights that they no longer stay in place. In fact, they balance precariously on the light tubes with one end or another dipping into the water. Im constantly fiddling with them to get them out of the water. Not only does it look horrible, I worry a fish may catch themselves on it (quite sharp edges for a fish to swim against) and, of course, a fire hazard (possibly paranoia that one). Ive thought about removing them altogether but worry the heat from the tubes would damage the plastic tank lid and again, fire hazard (sorry). New ones are £25 each - thats for the shorter tank. I dont know how much they are for the longer tank. And bear in mind I need two for each tank. A mere £100+ for something that barely lasts 18 months

3. The fish in my 4ft tank freak out when the lights suddenly go off. The TMC GroBeams can be controlled to gradually come on/off like sunrise/sunset. (The controller is extra).

4. Being cheaper to run and giving a lovely shimmer effect are both a great bonus!

In my 4ft tank, the TMC mounting rails will easily retro-fit into my T8 ballast using their T8 end caps. I can then fit a double-strip GroBeam 500 at the front and another double at the back where my tubes currently sit. GroBeam 500s boast "high output Cree XP-E LEDs in 6500K white - equivalent to Natural Daylight. This colour temperature offers a natural look and a spectrum which ensures your plants will thrive!".
Natalia, you said the light should (in your opinion) be between 6000 and 7000 kelvin for plants. These 6500k are bang in there!
I have always struggled to get plants going in this tank. I regularly thin out Vallisneria Tortifolia from my other tank and put the plants over to this one. But they never take. When we moved house 3 months ago, again I put new vallis plants into this tank, along with cryptocoryne and brazilian pennywort. Although the vallis is not looking great (again), it has, for the first time, still got a few green leaves and even new leaves/plantlets trying to come through. I live in hope! The cryptocoryne has completely made itself at home in this tank and is doing extremely well. The brazilian pennywort has grown, but a lot of its leaves seem to be under attack from Green Spot Algae along with another kind of algae - appears to be a brown form of Green Spot Algae. A few new leaves at the top are lush green but Im sure they will soon look as rank as the others.

My 3ft tank, however, is not long enough for the double strips, but too long for singles. Therefore Im looking at getting the Arcadia LEDs for this tank. They too will easily retro-fit into my T8 ballast and sit where my current tubes are. The Daylight tube has a "spectacular natural colour rendition with a high (>8K) colour temperature equally suited for Freshwater or Marine aquariums" whilst the Tropical tube has a "warm colour that enhances the red colours of fish and plants without flattening the iridescent blues of many tropical fish".
Hmmmm, the daylight tube boasts those "higher colour temperatures" that you're not a fan of Natalia, whilst the tropical tubes have a "warm" colour that Helen says is the very radio station plants love! 
The only plant issues I have in this tank are that the Anubias Nana suffers from Green Spot Algae and my shrimps (and/or SAEs) enjoy gardening - it looks like Ive gone down the back of the tank with scissors cutting the Twisted Vallis! My cryptocoryne is making a comeback from when we moved house and my Crinum Calamistratum is totally gorgeous - its even sprouted baby plants which I probably should have removed the bulbs from the mother bulb when we moved house, but I didnt dare. I was too scared Id lose the whole thing.

So they're my setups and future lighting plans.




Natalia - I understand your view of waiting for LED technology to progress. But given my problems (especially the flopsy reflectors), I cant help but still think that LEDs currently available wouldnt be any worse for my plants than T8s? If you have time, Im interested to hear your thoughts now that you have more information from my end.

Helen - I may be having a long conversation with myself if everybody remembers what happened last time!

Anyone with LEDs - I'd love to hear your personal experiences, thoughts and opinions on them.

Anyone else - Feel free to air your views.

Thanks 

Hi Helen - you're up late!!!

Righto, from the top:

Yes, both my tanks are the Fluval Roma. Ive had the 3-footer for about 2^1/2 years and the reflectors were fine to begin with. They started curling their way out of the clips maybe 10 months ago and I had to keep clipping them back in until one day about 6 months ago they had curled so much they would not stay in. They've sat on the tubes ever since and sometimes dip a corner into the water.

My 4-footer was an ex-display tank that has been set up for about 18 months. Being ex-display, it was way ahead of the game and it was literally only a matter of months before the reflectors started curling. They had actually curled their way out of the clips to live on the tubes before my 3ft tank even started. It is this ex-display 4-footer that Im constantly pulling the reflectors out of the water. Hindsight is a wonderful tool. I should have haggled at the time of purchase - I had no idea until I turned up to collect my tank that they had got me an ex-display. It wasnt even in a box! But they knew they had me by the short & curlies because they knew how much I wanted the no-longer-manufactured old-style without the filter holes in the bottom pane.

If I remember rightly, we both got our Roma 240s at about the same time (but you got yours set up first because I was trying to source the garden wall  ) That makes yours about 1^1/2 to 2 years old. Approximately what my 3ft tank was when it first started curling. I hate to say it Helen, but give it another 12 months and your reflectors will probably be sitting on your tubes too.

Im not entirely sure what seals/connections you're referring to that you think I may have wrong? Where do you suggest I check? I know the screwey-roundy bits at the end of each tube (that keeps it in place / makes it water tight) is fine. I tried to get the dudd bulb out the other week and they were screwed up so tight I had to be careful not to break them trying to undo them!

No, I dont use any CO2 or fertilisers. When I got my first tank, I tried plant foods. Every time I tried a fertiliser, two Otos reacted negatively. My last attempt was Easy Carbo. The same two Otos died. I vowed to never again add anything to the water other than dechlorinator. I decided to find plants that would do OK in the tank without added gumpf.

I set my photoperiod according to some stem plants I used to have (hornwort type stuff). If they werent getting enough light, they stretched and leaned towards the light so I upped the photoperiod by 15 minute increments each week until they stopped leaning. Both tanks come on at 7am until 8.30am so I can check all is well at breakfast. Then the 3ft comes on at 12.30pm (I think!) and the 4ft at 2pm (I think!). Both go off at 10pm.

The LED strips going on/off an hour before/after your main lights is an excellent idea  I will bear that one in mind if Im stuck for much longer with these wretched T8s!   

I guess my post does sound rather technical for me! Im surprised I understand it 

Yes, I was up late.  I got a bit distracted by reading and replying to your post. (weren't you up even later? That's not a lunchtime stamp on your post!  )

I hadn't realised that your 4ft Fluval Roma was an ex-display. Though now I think about it, I do remember you mentioning having got hold of one that wasn't pre-drilled. Mine is and the drilled holes and seals are so far ok. It is the plastic connection onto my filter that I'm a bit wary of. That would only half empty my tank if it failed, so at least the fish would be ok, if not a little uncomfortable for lack of water depth!

Will have to keep an eye on my reflectors. Perhaps there is no issue with the connections of your tubes, if it seems to be an age thing. It is probably a good idea to check that the metal pins and sockets are shiney and clean when you change the tubes. These connections will heat up if they have a build up of dirt or corrosion. I did read somewhere that it is a good idea to check all the electrical connections of the tank at least every 6 months. (that might even have been one of Steve's comments on the old board).

I guess whether it is worth investing in LEDs is down to why you want them. If you want them as a replacement for you T8s, that generate less heat are lower cost to run and last longer then, I think they are worth considering. If you want to solve your algae and plant problems, I think there are cheaper solutions that investing in new lighting.

Perhaps reviewing your photoperiod now you don't have the hornwort might help. (when you said 'used to have', I'm guessing that you no longer do)

I don't agree with Don's comments that T8s are 'truly rubbish' for plants, I think mine do more than adequately well. But I have been careful to chose plants that prefer low lighting - I have a lot of crypts, of different types. I got my 'plant growth explosion' when I started injecting CO2. The most noticeable alage blooms happen in my tank when the CO2 runs out. Though, I have also experienced persistent algae when I decided to reduce my ferts dosing regime, because I was concerned I was overdosing. Didn't take me long to return to what I was doing!

I haven't succeeded in growing a carpet at the front of my tank, but have crypt parva slowly making an attempt. Problem is that the corys tend to dig up new, small plants, so it is only succeeding in spreading by the root system (only one of its growth mechanisms). Which is slowing its progress significantly.

The LEDs I've added to my tank are definitely the cheaper versions that Don mentioned, they are extendable strings of 3 LEDs per unit. I have 5 units of red in my tank. Consequently, they don't give an even distribution of light. But I like them for the effect of sunrise/sunset, and they are significantly cheaper than the controllers you've discussed.

I have to admit that I'd not realised that it was possible to buy LED 'tubes' that can be used as a replacement to the flourescent tubes in the Hagen T8 lid. Think I will have to have a look at the TMC grobeams and see if I can get my head around the specifications.

It would be interesting to see what effect changing the photoperiod would have on your tank. By my calculation you have a half hour in the morning and then 8 or  9 1/2hrs in the afternoon. I'm trying to remember some of the things I read about plants, but my memory is a bit rubbish at the moment (extremely frustrating). I think an ideal photoperiod is 8 hours at one time, and it shouldn't be more than 10. But it can be better for the plants to split that into shorter photoperiods. I think it has something to do with plants being able to react more quickly to the lights coming on, where as the algae takes some time to make the most of the light.

Or that the plants can't make the most of the nutrients in the water - and the light -after about 4 hours. So by giving them a rest period after 4 hours, they are then making the most of the available resources for more of the total photoperiod. Whereas the algae will take whatever they can for as long as it is available. I can't remember if the length of the rest period is significant or not. I have a feeling that the reason for this is something to do with gas saturation.

If Natalia reads this, she'll be able to make sure that I've got it right - or correct me if I've remembered it wrong!

If your lights are on for only half an hour in the morning, do you not sleep in at the weekend, or just don't see your fish in the mornings? That is one of my favourite things, sitting eating my breakfast, watching the fish on a weekend morning!  And I'm usually there a lot longer than it takes me to eat a bowl of cereal.

If there is no other reason for your current photoperiod, it would be interesting to see if having a longer on period in the morning and a shorter one in the afternoon makes any difference. You don't necessarily have to reduce the total daily photoperiod.

Wow. What have I done? 

I will have to sit and read through these posts properly later. I just wanted to correct you Helen - my lights come on in the morning from 7am - 8.30am, thats 1^1/2 hours. I feed the fish at 7.45am so they get ^3/4 hour either side of breakfast. And yes I get up at weekends too! Once in a blue moon I ignore the alarm and go back to sleep and considering I overslept this morning, I guess thats my last lie-in 'til next year! 

But yes, it would be the afternoon "on-time" that I would change if I play around with the photoperiod. I dont mind it coming on later (or earlier), but I like them to go off at 10pm as my tanks are my evenings viewing 





Edit: Strangely, Im understanding pretty much all of that Natalia! One bit Im stuck on, if anyone can help 

you will have much-much brighter (higher PAR) values IMMEDIATELY beneath the beam – and much dimmer conditions  on the periphery

Would that be much brighter directly under each little LED and dimmer conditions in between each one. Or much brighter directly under the whole strip and dimmer conditions between each strip and tank edges?

Thanks 

Your post confused me more than Natalias did LOL!!!!!!!! My maths is very suspect too Helen. I also related to your previous comment about how frustrating it is to have a terrible memory...... its infuriating! 

if the LEDs are close enough, you might not notice less intense spots between them

Maybe Don or Richard would be kind enough to tell us the spacing between each LED? 

Thanks Don 

You posted pictures of your lights on the old forum. They were on your corner tank (not sure how many tanks you have). But if you get time to post pics again, I wouldnt mind a recap 

The two double strips I have planned for my 4ft tank sounds about right then. Im happy to hold out for GroBeams on this tank but it seems Im going to have to go with Arcadia on the 3ft.

Hi Helen  Are you also hooked? 

If you look at the Mounting Rails (MMS - Modular Mounting System) for the GroBeams, you can cut it to the right length. You can then buy T8 end caps (to fit each end of the rail) and slot the mounting rail into the current T8 holders. The GroBeams will then fit onto the rail. Bingo! Jobs a goodun 

I have wondered about keeping one T8 tube and the other retro-fitted LEDs on my 3ft. But I dont know, as you say, about the wiring. I could do with somehow finding out because the front tube has gone and I would like to replace it with an Arcadia. Obviously, doing this means the T8 lighting system would have to be plugged into the mains for the one tube to work. Im not sure where that leaves the "flowing electricity" on the second fitting.
I suppose, technically, it wouldnt be any different to having a blown non-working tube sat in there, as I have at the moment. After all, the T8 end caps for LEDs (be it TMC or Arcadia) are only "holders" and so technically dont make up any kind of electrical circuit.

The GroBeams (and indeed the Arcaidas), have their own cable to plug into the mains.

For my 4ft tank, Im looking at two double strips (ie. one double front, one double back) along with the mutli-controller. You can connect up to 8 GroBeams into the controller which in turn plugs into the mains. That way, you only need one plug socket and can control all the lights off the one controller.




EDIT: PS, please do your own research on the above in case Ive misunderstood the Mounting System! Though Im pretty sure someone on the old forum fitted their GroBeams in that way. They even posted photos on how to do it. Im 99% sure it was Jan (I wonder what happened to him  ).

Hi Helen,

I can confirm that the Roma lighting does work on one tube. My front tube has gone (200 litre tank) whilst the back is still working. I am one of the few aquarium owners that you refer to as keeping the same tubes until they fail. My phylosophy being that new tube equals stronger light equals algae. I dreaded having to get new tubes! I replaced the back tube about 6 - 7 months ago when it started to flicker. The front tube started to flicker about 3 weeks ago and I left it go completely because Im trying to find out if I can put an Arcadia in its place rather than a T8. I had just decided to try an Arcadia, until you pointed out about watertight protection with the white screw caps. Very valid point. Thats the very reason Ive left the blown tube in its place - to keep the electrics protected. I will now have to rethink and decide whether to just replace the front tube as is, or get two Arcadias which will render the Roma hood functionless electrically.

With regards to the bracing bar on the 240l, Im reckoning that the TMC mounting rail will fit in the gap height-wise between the hood and the bracing bar. The big question is whether the GroBeams will fit lengthways either side of the bracing bar. Trying to get the exact measurements of the GroBeams is a right larf! Some places say they're 47cm long, some say 48cm. And, of course, we dont really know exactly how much room there is until a mounting rail is fitted. 1cm can be all the difference as to whether or not they'll go in. Personally, I think they will. Though its a lot of money to risk finding out  I think I'll make sure to buy them from a shop that will give a cash refund if they dont fit!

If I go for the Arcadias on the 200 litre tank (it too has a bracing bar), I might get a better idea as to how much length is lost, or gained, by using T8 end caps. I know the Arcadia end caps may be a little different to the TMC ones, but the principle will be much the same and so should give a better idea of length within a few millimetres rather than centimetres.

So, come on Helen, are you now thinking about getting GroBeams? 

(edited due to terrible grammar!)

Many thanks for all that info Don - you've given me food for thought.

From a simpletons point of view (ie. me!) the easiest way of installing GroBeams is to use the current T8 fittings. And it will now be easier to work out if it can be done that way since you have confirmed the actual length of these LEDs (thankyou for that!)

Failing that, they will definitely fit no problem if it can be done similar to yours because I would then have the full length of the tank to play with instead of being restricted to getting them between the T8 slots. If it comes to that, I would have to take another close look at my light unit. From what I remember, the light unit is all part & parcel of the hood itself - like one moulded unit. From above, this piece has a thin groove running the full length front & back for the lifty-flaps to sit in when you open them. By removing the light unit (and thus the middle half of the hood), there would be nowhere for the lifty-flaps to rest on when closed nor anywhere for them to sit when open. That would mean having to make a new piece of hood to go down the middle of the tank not only for the GroBeams to fix to but also for the front & back lifty-flaps. The only material I can happily work with is wood (must have inherited that from my dad!)

The ledge everything sits on down each side of the tank is much the same principle as yours. Only your ledge looks deeper than mine. Mine is all of 3 or 4mm. Not a lot to play with.

However, I could be wrong about the light unit. Maybe its not moulded to the hood? Maybe it can be removed leaving me with the plastic strip of hood down the middle as a starting point to work with? Hmmmm......