Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Tank Plant Advice => Topic started by: fcmf on February 08, 2020, 08:20:19 PM
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Tank photo, containing some live plants (limnophila sessiliflora, bacopa caroliniana, vallis) that have actually survived for 5 whole weeks(!) plus one (Amazon sword) that is somehow clinging onto the land of the living after 4 months. [For those interested in tank aesthetics, I suggest you avert your eyes.]
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Hi @fcmf
Your tank and plants look really nice. And no algae in sight. Well done! It would be interesting to get an update on which fertilizers you are currently using and how frequently you dose them.
Edit: is that a JBL i60 in the rear RH corner?
JPC
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Thanks for the kind words, @jaypeecee .
The A.S. does get diatoms / brown algae on its leaves; admittedly :-[, I take it out of the tank and give each leaf a wipe with the fishkeeping toothbrush during each water change to avoid it getting consumed by that. I've put 4 finger-sized wedges of Superfish Phos Pad into the filter for the past couple of weeks but haven't noticed a discernible drop in phosphate levels (still ~5ppm although it's maybe dropped by 1ppm, API kit). I also have 2 finger-sized wedges of Arcadia Poly-Filter in the filter.
The L.S. and the more-alive part of the two sections of A.S. have a Seachem Flourish root tab underneath. I dose a 'thread' of a capful of liquid Seachem Flourish 2x per week.
Yes, it's a JBL corner filter - actually the i80 in the corner. If you have a search around the forum, you may see a post about the waterproof magnets I have to keep it attached to the tank wall and prevent livestock going behind it - a real downside of that filter. The neon green rasboras had a tendency to squeeze behind anything, so you may also notice some sponge / wool wedged near the top where the suction cups create a small gap.
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Well done with your plants @fcmf :cheers:
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The A.S. does get diatoms / brown algae on its leaves; admittedly :-[, I take it out of the tank and give each leaf a wipe with the fishkeeping toothbrush during each water change to avoid it getting consumed by that. I've put 4 finger-sized wedges of Superfish Phos Pad into the filter for the past couple of weeks but haven't noticed a discernible drop in phosphate levels (still ~5ppm although it's maybe dropped by 1ppm, API kit). I also have 2 finger-sized wedges of Arcadia Poly-Filter in the filter.
Yes, it's a JBL corner filter - actually the i80 in the corner.
Hi @fcmf
Firstly, the A.S. If it really is diatoms, these are usually the result of silicate, not phosphate being too high. You may wish to take a look at this:
https://www.jbl.de/en/blog/detail/416/getting-rid-of-diatoms-no-problem-at-all
Obviously, this is a plug for JBL products. You could use an alternative test kit and silicate filtration media.
With reference to phosphate, I don't use filtration pads. I prefer loose media. One product that comes to mind is Rowa-Phos but Seachem is very likely to have a similar product. I don't believe that Poly-Filter removes phosphate but you may want to check that. @Hampalong is a Poly-Filter user.
I used to have a JBL i80 but it got very noisy so it now gets little use. It is also not such a good design but that's a topic for another day.
JPC
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Thanks, JPC.
I'm not that fussed about the brown algae / diatoms (if indeed that's what it is) as it's only ever present on some plants and not elsewhere. I get black beard algae on the silk plants and what remains of the anubias. In both cases, though, the fishkeeping toothbrush resolves all during tank maintenance. The filtration pad was under £5, so worth a try; if the situation gets worse, though, that's useful to bear in mind the alternative and more expensive products.
The Poly-Filter was bought on the back of a forum discussion earlier in the year - not designed to remove phosphate, but more "peace of mind" in the event of any heavy metals.
Completely agree about the corner filter's design, at least as far as its inability to fit snugly against the glass is concerned - mine floated right out (until the purchase of strong magnets resolved the issue). Very surprised at its poor design - JBL products are normally excellent. Barneyadi finds the OASE BioPlus corner filter doesn't have this problem; no idea what Eheim's corner filter is like but I have a small PickUp filter for my QT.
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:cheers:
Congrats @fcmf we’ll turn you into an aquascaper before not too long!!
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Completely agree about the corner filter's design, at least as far as its inability to fit snugly against the glass is concerned - mine floated right out (until the purchase of strong magnets resolved the issue). Very surprised at its poor design - JBL products are normally excellent. Barneyadi finds the OASE BioPlus corner filter doesn't have this problem; no idea what Eheim's corner filter is like but I have a small PickUp filter for my QT.
Hi @fcmf,
Quite apart from the filter's fitting issues, there is something more fundamental about that range of JBL's filters that I didn't like.
The crux of my concern is that adding additional baskets with, say, phosphate removal media is not going to work very well because a lot of the water may bypass it by flowing through the other baskets. The water will flow through the path of least resistance. I can't adequately explain this without drawing a diagram. I just tried and deleted what I'd written!
JPC
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This is a common experience I've had with live plants - leaves developing a brownish algae (I assume). Hoping one of those with aquascaping experience can confirm if this is brown algae / diatoms? I have a Seachem root tab under each, as well as the Seachem Flourish that I dose a couple of times per week.
I'm not able to start buying / experimenting with other products such as CO2 or LED lighting. However, any other suggestions to eliminate it, besides giving each leaf a swipe with the fishkeeping toothbrush, would be welcome. Would transferring the plants to a QT and keeping them in darkness for a few days help at all for this or would that be detrimental?
Final photo is not algae-ridden but just a plant not faring very well. It is the other part of the plant in the first photo - I separated them at the outset; the former has done better than the latter, for whatever reason (and despite moving the latter's position around the tank in an effort to resurrect it).
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Yes, PolyFilter removes phosphates. :)
(Some?most?) Terrestrial plants respond badly to too much physical interference (they all have their tolerance levels) so I would assume aquatic plants are the same. Being uprooted must be (imo) quite stressful for them...
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Hi @fcmf
I think your plants are deficient in one, or all, of the macronutrients - nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) and potassium (K). Neither Seachem Flourish nor Flourish Tabs provide significant amounts of these macronutrients. One solution would be to switch from Seachem Flourish to TNC Complete. Obviously, leave the Flourish Tabs in the substrate.
Amazon Swords don't need much light. The more light that plants receive, the more nutrients (fertilizers) they need. You could shade (some of) your submerged plants with floating plants. No doubt you are aware that some of the latter don't take well to droplets of water on their leaves.
Those are my initial thoughts. I will re-visit this later today when time permits.
JPC
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Thanks, JPC.
I thought, in view of my high phosphates (5ppm - not lowered by either the PhosPad or Poly-Filter), we had decided against TNC Complete... plus my keenness not to increase nitrates. From a bit of digging around on the www, it seems that elderly fish are even more sensitive to any nitrates than ordinarily the case, so I don't want to be taking any risks with so many approaching the end of their lives.
Those two pieces of Amazon Sword have been odd - the piece in the centre of the tank but immediately under the filter's outflow (possibly being shaded by the moving water) has done so much better than the piece originally in the shade (but since moved around a bit to experiment with location). Unfortunately floating plants tend to get singed in my tank, and have been £ down the drain; however, now that I seem to have one plant that's flourishing (the limnophila sessiliflora), I'll see what I can hide underneath it. Alternatively, I might put them in the no-light quarantine tank for a while (I can almost hear Mr FCMF groan at the thought of resurrecting it) so that there is only natural daylight or room light reaching them.
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Hi @fcmf
My apologies for overlooking your high phosphate level. Yes, using TNC Complete is not the way to go. What is your current nitrate level? The leaves of some of the plants look a bit 'washed out'. Is that really the case or is this a photo-related issue? The lighting looks bright. Is that how it appears to you? The lack of a source of sufficient carbon is also something that needs to be considered.
One thing that we have not mentioned (I don't think) is how long you have your tank light on. How many hours per day? Given the constraints in which we're working, I think we may need to reduce the tank lighting duration.
JPC
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Not a bad shout that at all JPC... :cheers:
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Thanks, JPC.
Nitrates approx 20-25.
Yes, leaves are indeed as you see them and lighting bright (although don't have a comparator) but think the latter is why floating plants singe and smell singed in the past and water temp always higher (26-27 even in winter and without central heating on) than heater (24).
Lighting on 2pm-9pm each day - maybe worth reducing by an hour, would you suggest?
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Lighting on 2pm-9pm each day - maybe worth reducing by an hour, would you suggest?
Hi @fcmf
Thanks for the info. Nitrate is good. It does ring a bell that not only do you have 'bright' lighting but the tube(s) are obviously radiating a good deal of heat. Not good. No surprise that floating plants suffer. I can't remember how many (fluorescent?) tubes you have installed. Is it just one?
I think the way forward is to reduce the duration for which the lighting is ON (known as the photoperiod for obvious reasons). I would reduce the photoperiod from 7 hours to 6 hours, as you say, initially. And repeat this, if necessary, until you see an improvement with your plants.
Please keep us posted.
JPC
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Thanks, JPC - yes, just the one fluorescent tube, but it is indeed mighty hot to touch.
Plants were re-positioned yesterday evening. I delayed the switch-on today until 14:20 so will alter it tomorrow to 14:40 and then 15:00 the following day (gradual change to avoid jetlag on anyone's part), so that the photoperiod is of 6 hours' duration from then on. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again. :cheers:
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As an update to this thread, I've taken some photos of the algae on my plants currently - any idea what the type of algae is?
I've deliberately zoomed in so that it's easier to identify (and so that no-one sees the sorry state of some of my plants). Of some consolation is that the hygrophila guanensis is continuing to produce fresh leaves at the top.
Two updates to this thread:
* my new nitrate testing kit which is so much easier to read suggests my tank nitrate level is 1 ppm (although I'd been doing daily water changes under the assumption I had a trace of nitrite but it now seems as though that is not the case after all - cf separate thread re cardinal tetras);
* I have a new light - an Aquael Leddy LED Sunny tube Retro-fit 8w.
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This is likely to be the cause of some of your struggles with plant growth. They have used up all the available nitrogen and so it would be advisable to begin to add some complete liquid fertiliser containing macro nutrients (N P and K)
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Thanks, M. That's exactly what I wondered. I have high phosphates, though (5ppm, although lowered a bit currently with my phosphate pads), so maybe it would just be the N and K to add?
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I would still add a complete fertiliser and make sure there is enough of everything. It is actually advisable to slightly over dose fertiliser to ensure there are no shortages - healthy plant growth is the best antidote to algae.
Edited to add - plus I’d be too nervous about getting the proportions wrong with individual element dosing!!!
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Thanks, M.
So, just to confirm, I won't be overdosing or harming my nerite snails or fish if I continued to dose Seachem Flourish, Seachem Flourish root tabs AND something like Seachem Enhancer NPK (or TNC Complete, depending on which has least phosphorus, I'd imagine)?
Am throwing it all "out there" - here are photos of the sorry state of my ?Amazon Sword and of my lower-level leaves of the hygrophila guanensis. Apologies in advance if I give you nightmares after seeing these! [White-Spined Cardinal has photobombed the final photo.]
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There is good new growth from the entries there, they need the right nutilrition to maintain the older leaves and fight off the algae - there is Hope don’t worry!! Before I advice on dosing and as we’re both online right now can I ask first when you say seachem flourish - which product? The micro nutrients? Or excel?
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It's the micro-nutrients one I have.
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Thanks - in that case your dosing suggestion is correct. Micro and macro products dosed together or the one complete product (suggest looking at the dose rate for the products and working out the best value for money - many are weaker solutions). You can also continue to use the root tabs - the amazon sword benefit from them specifically.
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That's great; thanks, Matt.
Found a photo of the Limnophila sessiliflora shortly before I more-or-less killed it. It was very top heavy, and a bit of tinkering around to remove the algae or whatever-it-is that was clogging up / transpired to be holding together the stems near the base ultimately caused the stems to break. However, it's proof that I did actually keep a plant alive and even have it grow for a while! 8)
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I'm having trouble getting my head around how dosing with NPK is not going to cause even higher phosphate levels and thus potentially more algae (.v. if I dosed only with NK or NK plus a small amount of P). Hoping someone can explain; thanks. :)
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@fcmf It will cause it to increase of course and your approach is not wrong - sorry if this is what came across it was not my intention. My personal preference is simply to find the simplest route to success that’s all. In many cases the balance of having all nutrients available is what is more important than a “minor” excess. However having done a little research just now 5mg/l does appear to be borderline on quite a significant concentration. You are likely to get success with both approaches I suspect in reality. Your choice is whether to start simple or complex in your approach - perhaps it’s worth looking as to whether any of the algae types you are experiencing are related to high phosphate. Also whether the phosphate is steady all year round in your tap water supply - my water company provides max,min,avg for the variables. This would help you make an informed choice on the route you wish to take.
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No probs, and thanks, Matt - this makes more sense to me now.
Does anyone have any idea what these algae types are, based on my photos?
I don't do the phosphate tests regularly but they've always been 4.0 or 5.0 ppm from the tap. My water company provides comprehensive detail on what seems like everything possible except any phosphate levels!
Edited to add: Photo of tapwater phosphate levels.
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:wave: @fcmf @Matt
Glad to see I’m not the only one struggling to come to terms with balance in order to support plant life and no algae. Why can’t algae be pretty a freaking awesome at growing that :isay:
I think I’m slowly eliminating potential issues and could be as has been mentioned here my lack of macronutrients. I add JBL ferropol for the micro stuff, have 10-20ppm of Nitriate 0 ammonia and Nitrite so not sure if I need Macro and the impact it has on readings. Phosphate is 0.25ppm if that helps.
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Algae types and their causes treatments etc etc...
https://greenaqua.hu/en/alga-tajekoztato?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwcX_5Ono6QIVyrHtCh2D7wNoEAAYASAAEgKd1_D_BwE (https://greenaqua.hu/en/alga-tajekoztato?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwcX_5Ono6QIVyrHtCh2D7wNoEAAYASAAEgKd1_D_BwE)
I honestly think your main issue there is the decaying plant matter - eliminate this with macro dosing and your algae will magically go away!!
Your phos level will fine Marcus.
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Thanks Matt saw your reply. I’m getting there slowly.
Got a co2 test kit arriving and the power head then potentially I need some fast growing plants, Try build up the tank and add some potassium
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Thanks, Matt.
Looks like it might be brown algae (and possibly hair algae). @Marcus_F - yours probably is too. Hopefully indeed macro-dosing will help.
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In an effort to diagnose my algae, I've taken some photos:
Photo 1: how it starts out (diatoms?)
Photos 2-4: fluff-type algae
Currently don't have the usual brown/slime-type algae that often overtakes the plants but that'll no doubt follow shortly.
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No expert by all means but from all the research I’ve done and photo’s I’ve studied that I looks like hair algae to me.
My algae is longer, maybe it needs a snip :D
Will try take some photos tomorrow.
I’ve been working on water chemistry today.
My tank PH is 8.2 which I’ve checked is not great for co2 levels. Also trying to reduce my hard tap water. So I have mixed In a bucket 75% RO and 25% tap. The PH of that bucket is 7.2, KH is 5 and GH 7.
Been reading up if using 75% RO is a good idea. Can’t find anywhere saying it’s a bad idea and it’s all about getting my PH down and so KH needs to drop.
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Not worked out how to embedded an image to a post but here are Flickr links
https://flic.kr/p/2j9GnuV
https://flic.kr/p/2j9F51N
https://flic.kr/p/2j9F51x
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Yes, the algae on your plants is definitely different from that on mine - hairier and longer whereas mine is fluffier. The dark leaves of the ?vallis look similar, though - do you find it melts once it goes like that?
Our issues are quite different too - you're using CO2 and RO water, while I'm not, so maybe any potential solutions for each of us will be different.
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Can’t say I notice melting. Not really heard that terminology before I started researching. I’m not using co2 :)
I’m just researching into co2.
Think mine is Black beard but it’s green :vcross:
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The first link with the dark leaf in the middle looks as though it's BBA. I'm sure one of the links I looked at described 'green beard algae' - every link seems to generate new names of algae.
Oops - I must have completely mis-read/mis-remembered that re CO2.
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Up-to-date photo of plants:
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Oooo, lots of greenery there. Looking good :)
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Thanks - that's because there are a couple of new plants less than a week old. Time will tell how long they remain that way... although I'm now dosing potassium and nitrogen, so let's see if that helps at all.
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I’m fairly confident it will @fcmf - how are you doing on the algae front?
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I've only put in one dose so far of the AquaDip, so I'll answer that question in due course. It seems like there's less but I think it's an illusion created by a couple of fresh, new, algae-free plants.
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Photo 1: View from front of tank.
Photo 2: View from side of tank.
The two new plants (java fern - middle; crypt - front left) are still alive at several weeks old, so not bad by my standards. ::) Really keen for these to survive, as they were flourishing on arrival. The java fern was weighted down with a pebble in the centre and is now floating of its own accord 1cm off the substrate - would this be alright long-term?
The hygrophila guanensis (middle back) has a very tall stem with the leaves only remaining at the top - it's having to be kept upright by a pile of ceramic rings on top of a terracotta pot! I'm beginning to think I might have to decant it into a household flower vase as it's too tall for my tank - would this be an option?
The Amazon sword (left - Photo 2) has neither died nor flourished lately - brownish leaves underneath and some healthier leaves, so I've decanted it out of its pot and into the substrate to see if that helps.
What's left of the Limnophila sessiliflora is in the front right of the tank. I wasn't planning on restocking but am undergoing another bout of intense broodiness for fish and might find that the QT installs itself somewhere (dear knows where, though!) and inhabited by some additional cardinals and these plants.
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Looking great, I just added two java ferns to a large rock not 30mins ago. Also Bolbitus heudelotii (Congo fern) on another large rock. Got a further 2 or 3 plants on rocks or wood. I’m having a real problem keeping plants planted and not floating some loving the pebble idea.
Also I think the sessiliflora is the hardest so called beginner plant to get right haha I’m on my 2nd :/
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Oooh, you must show us a photo of your tank with its new plants on your thread at https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/new-fishkeepers/struggling-with-plants-and-algae, @Marcus_F
:)
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Done :)
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Great pics. Nice to see your plants doing well. :cheers:
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@fcmf the Java fern should be fine floating a little and the hygrophilias stem can be shortened to a leaf node nearer the active growing area. This is fairly normal for this species to loose its lower leaves as they don’t receive as much light - trim the stem, put a lead weight over the stem and place into the substrate - if there are any aerial roots on the stem use this as your cutting point. The amazon sword will be happiest planted so that sounds good too. Remind me... are you dosing a complete liquid fertiliser now? The tank is looking more and more greener in any case!
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Thanks. :)
@Matt - at the risk of sounding completely daft, can you confirm for me which part of the plant I'd be keeping? I read it as discarding the lower part / stem without leaves and retaining the upper part with the leaves on it, and that new roots might sprout from below this upper part near a leaf node. Mr FCMF read it as discarding the upper part with the leaves on it (which would be a real shame), and keeping the lower part / stem without leaves which would still have the root attached at the bottom but new leaves might sprout from the leaf nodes. Grateful for clarification; thanks. :)
I'm currently using the following:
* Seachem root tabs, only in pots with plants (as I'm uneasy about the nerite snails having contact with the root tabs and munching on them due to the little bit of copper in them);
* Seachem Flourish;
* Aquadip Potassium and Aquadip Nitro (but not Aquadip Fosfo, given the high phosphate level in my tap water).
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@fcmf You were right!!
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Thanks, @Matt . Done. :cheers:
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Pleased to report that (touchwood in both cases):
* after a spell of using the additional fertilisers, the plants are still looking lush green (crypt, Java fern, hygrophila guanensis); they did have a few days where the algae looked set to take over but a very light brush with a fishkeeping toothbrush / dabbing of the towel on each leaf to remove excess algae seemed to work;
* the newish light (and possibly the fertilisers) seems to have helped my recent-ish purchase of Amazonian frogbit - never has it lasted this long without turning yellow and being/smelling singed by the heat of the aquarium light.
The Limnophila Sessiliflora is no more, and a small bit of H.g. and the Amazon Sword is in the QT but its outer leaves remain brown with the inner ones green.
I read it as discarding the lower part / stem without leaves and retaining the upper part with the leaves on it, and that new roots might sprout from below this upper part near a leaf node.
This has worked well. :cheers:
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Two months since my last post and this is how the plants look [NB goal is to keep the plants alive (by having them suitably spaced that they don't die), not aquascaping, much as it's nice to look at]:
[Disclaimer: Apologies to anyone who flinches, or worse, at the two cringeworthy algae magnet-scraper marks down the front of the glass.]
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Looking like some good plants growth there :cheers:
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That looks good!
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Great to see you plants doing well. :cheers:
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Update: having killed the limnophila sessiliflora (cf https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/think-fish-keepers-daily-news-2021/msg50712/?topicseen#new replies #10-13), and with the crypt and Amazon sword having shrunk to tiny proportions, and the java fern looking more rugged than lush, I treated the fish to a couple of new plants via my usual online supplier to give some company to the existing hygrophila guanensis (which has actually survived for, from recollection, a whole year (and possibly a 'personal best' in my plant-keeping)!
They are a Cryptocoryne beckettii and an Echinodorus Reni. Photos attached. I know there's a lot of terracotta - it seems the best way for me to keep plants.
Edited to add: Pic 1- vertically cropped photo showing most plants. Pic 2 - horizontally cropped photo showing all fish. Snails are up high on the glass but their numerous eggs are proof of their presence!
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Glad you are at least having success with your hygrophilla! And new plants to try is always good :cheers:
I don’t know why it never occurred to me to suggest you could try another couple of hygrophilla species difformis and corymbosa 'Compact' - look quite different to guanensis and might stand a good chance if the guanensis is already doing well.
I assume you are aware of crypt melt and not to worry about this if it does happen and to leave the root stock to regrow new leaves adjusted to underwater growth?
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I think those little pots are quite cute. I've had some in my tanks too. Also very handy when certain fish rummage through the substrate and end up moving things around.
I hope your new plants do well, and it's great to see pics of your tank & gang. 8)
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Thanks, both. :cheers:
I'll bear those future plant possibilities in mind - TBH, my choice of plants on this occasion was entirely around availability from my fave online supplier (to whom I'm very loyal). Typical, though, that almost immediately after buying them, availability broadened considerably. ::)