Author Topic: Substrate (Read 35407 times) 85 replies

Resa · « **Reply #60 on:** May 24, 2014, 01:36:27 PM »

There's probably an easier way of taking out the majority of what someone has said that is not relevant to your reply, but so far, I do it by just back-spacing through it. Steve will tell you if there is a better method, he probably won't tell me as he enjoys my angst too much...he's sooo funny

Sue · « **Reply #61 on:** May 24, 2014, 02:48:53 PM »

Hardness (GH) and KH are not the same thing. Most water companies, if they give it at all (not many do), call KH alkalinity.

GH is a measure of the amount of calcium and magnesium in the water. This is what fish profiles mean when they say a fish needs hard or soft water. Fish have evolved to cope with a certain level and many will not thrive if kept in water of the 'wrong' hardness.
KH is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate in the water. Fish keepers like to know it as it is a measure of the amount of buffer in the water; that means how stable the pH is likely to be. With a low KH it is very easy to alter the pH, but with a high KH is it very hard to alter it.

As Steve says, getting the shop to test the KH of your tap water is the best way to start. The critical value is 4 degrees or 70ppm, whichever unit they use. If it is lower than this, get a KH tester and check your pH every time you do the other tests. Up to 6 or 7, don't bother with a tester but check the pH frequently. If it's over 10, you won't have any problems.
But if it is less than 3, you need to take action, I'll tell you what if you find it is that low.

There are 2 concerns with low KH. This is a measure of the amount of carbonate and bicarbonate in the water. The filter bacteria need some in the water to grow, and they use it up as they do so. And both nitrite and nitrate, made by the cycle, are acidic and will react with carbonates, reducing the amount in the water. Once the amount of carbonate has dropped sufficiently low the acidic chemicals then have nothing to stop them dropping the pH - and the bacteria won't multiply below 6.5. And they won't grow anyway if there isn't enough carbonate.

Some areas of the country have a KH well over 10. Here, there is no danger of a pH crash during cycling. However, if you do have lowish KH, there are ways to boost the carbonate during cycling, either water changes to replenish the carbonate or by adding bicarbonate of soda (from the home baking section of the supermarket), I can tell you the dosage. Bicarb is fine to use during cycling but not when you have fish as all the sodium (the soda part) is as bad for fish as it is for us.

Puffin · « **Reply #62 on:** May 24, 2014, 03:18:12 PM »

So low KH is a concern, and am I right in thinking low (ish) GH is beneficial? ie soft water, preferred by more species of fish.

I have GH and KH on the aforementioned test strips I got before the API set came through. I've noted down the results...
GH 7
KH 6
But as I say, these are from tests that I've no idea of the accuracy of.

Let me see if I can work out what this means from what you've said Sue, and other info floating round in my brain!
KH 6: low but not scary low, test pH frequently.
GH 7:medium / soft - should suit a wide variety of fish.

Am I getting there?
Many thanks for all your help.

Ps have topped up the ammonia to 2ppm today as it had dropped to 0.5ppm by this afternoon.
(Am trying to achieve 3ppm but the tests only measure 2 and 4)

Sue · « **Reply #63 on:** May 24, 2014, 03:22:21 PM »

The GH and KH summary is fine. Yes, a lot of fish will be quite happy in that GH and you have a bigger choice than if you had very hard water.
And yes, I would check the pH every few days just to be safe. I got almost to the end of my cycle before my KH of 3 caused a pH crash.

Sue · « **Reply #64 on:** May 24, 2014, 03:27:18 PM »

Ohh missed the ammonia addition. Are you following the method I wrote? Adding ammonia too often causes the nitrite level to get too high and that stalls the cycle. That happens at nitrite 15 to 16 but our test kits don't go that high. The chap who invented the new fishless cycling regime aimed to reduce the amount of ammonia added so the nitrite level could not go past that critical level.

Puffin · « **Reply #65 on:** May 24, 2014, 03:47:49 PM »

Yes I am Sue, but moving it on a bit quicker due to (I'm hoping) the action of the mature filter media I added yesterday, starting work on the ammonia already!
Nitrites are nothing like that high yet, but it will bear in mind what you say. They have only just started showing up on the test, 0.25 ppm yesterday, maybe I should test again today.

Sue · « **Reply #66 on:** May 24, 2014, 03:55:09 PM »

I'd forgotten you were using mature media. That does affect the cycle. In that case, yes add ammonia more often but keep a check on the nitrite. Because of the difference in molecular weight, 1ppm ammonia makes ~2.5ppm nitrite so nitrite does go up quicker than ammonia goes down, unless there nitrite eaters (mature media) to pass nitrite on into nitrate as it is being made. The problem there is that nitrate testers aren't that accurate but if you do see the colour changing to a higher level, it is a good indicator that you have nitrate being made. That's the best way to use the nitrate test, to look for an increase rather than a specific reading.

Puffin · « **Reply #67 on:** May 24, 2014, 05:37:41 PM »

Ok thanks, yes that does make sense, so the fact I have minimal nitrate doesn't necessarily mean it's not being made, just being moved straight on to nitrate.
Is one of the processes faster than the other?

Sue · « **Reply #68 on:** May 24, 2014, 06:59:13 PM »

In a cycled filter there are just enough ammonia eaters to eat the ammonia made by the fish, and just enough nitrite eaters to eat the nitrite made by the ammonia eaters. In a cycling filter, the nitrite eaters have to play catch up. They can't start to grow until the ammonia eaters have made some nitrite so they always lag behind until the point where there are finally enough of them. This is what happens when you don't have mature media. But when you do, everything depends on just how many of each species of bacteria were transferred and how many died during the move. You also need to grow more of them and the nitrite eaters are notoriously slower growing than the ammonia eaters. Both these factors (how many bacteria survived the move, and the different growth rates) affect the progress of a seeded cycle like yours. And it is unpredictable progress.

Puffin · « **Reply #69 on:** May 24, 2014, 07:06:01 PM »

Thanks. I will wait and see!

SteveS · « **Reply #70 on:** May 24, 2014, 09:34:43 PM »

In order to add a quote to your post, you add the required text between markers called "Quote Tags". So typing ...

[quote]Hello Resa[/quote] into your post, will produce the following quoted text in your reply.

Quote

Hello Resa

[quote author=Resa]Hello Resa[/quote] into your post, will produce the following quoted text in your reply.

Quote from: Resa

Hello Resa

[quote author=Resa link=topic=921.msg9117#msg9117 date=1400934987]Hello Resa[/quote] into your post, will produce the following quoted text in your reply.

Quote from: Resa on May 24, 2014, 01:36:27 PM

Hello Resa

The latter one is best left to the software, especially the date.

What's crucial, is that you get the [quote][/quote] tags to match up properly.

Quote from: Resa on May 24, 2014, 01:36:27 PM

There's probably an easier way of taking out the majority of what someone has said that is not relevant to your reply, but so far, I do it by just back-spacing through it. Steve will tell you if there is a better method, he probably won't tell me as he enjoys my angst too much...he's sooo funny

As far as I know, there is no easy way to selectively quote a message. You press the "Insert Quote" link and manually edit the text within the quote markers.

Puffin · « **Reply #71 on:** May 24, 2014, 11:49:34 PM »

Thanks Steve
Like this?

Quote

What's crucial, is that you get the
Quote
tags to match up properly.

Quote from: Resa on Today at 01:36:27 PM
There's probably an easier way of taking out the majority of what someone has said that is not relevant to your reply, but so far, I do it by just back-spacing through it. Steve will tell you if there is a better method, he probably won't tell me as he enjoys my angst too much...he's sooo funny
As far as I know, there is no easy way to selectively quote a message. You press the "Insert Quote" link and manually edit the text within the quote markers. - See more at: http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,921.msg9141.html#msg9141

Hm sort of!

SteveS · « **Reply #72 on:** May 25, 2014, 04:04:22 AM »

Quote from: Puffin on May 24, 2014, 11:49:34 PM

... What's crucial, is that you get the
Quote
tags to match up properly...

Hm sort of!

The "Empty Quote" you get there is because of some trickery I did to display [quote][/quote] tags correctly.

Puffin · « **Reply #73 on:** May 26, 2014, 09:14:44 AM »

Ok, I'm continuing this on newbies, as it's no longer got very much to do with substrate. Although I have re read all your advice, especially I've reminded myself of the advice to use charcoal for first six weeks, I have a filter cartridge that contains that, so I'll put it in after the cycle.
Thanks everyone.

Puffin · « **Reply #74 on:** June 16, 2014, 04:29:57 PM »

My tank is now cycled, just waiting for an opportunity to get some fish! In the meantime I have some concerns regarding the substrate.
There seems to be quite a large build up of hydrogen sulphide in the substrate. Every time I poke in a skewer it seems to release a bubble. I have detected that eggy hydrogen sulphide smell. Maybe not every time.
Is this a concern, and if so is there anything I can do about it? I've read that Malaysian trumpet snails can help, and you know me with anything Malaysian!
Do other snails not do this too? I have quite a lot of bladder snails and the odd ramshorn.

The other concern is the amount of bottom substrate, ie soil, that has accumulated on the top, sand. In fact my soil is lighter than my sand so every time any soil is disturbed (planting / releasing H2S bubbles) I get soil settling on top of the sand a few minutes later.
I've read that vacuuming is the way to get rid of this... It's not working for me!
Will this be a problem, will it mean I can't have bottom dwelling fish?

Thanks in advance.

chris213 · « **Reply #75 on:** June 16, 2014, 04:43:51 PM »

i get some soil from time to time work its way threw at first i had a fair bit come threw so i came to the conclusion that my sand layer was a little thin so i increased the thickness of my sand and this seems to have cleared 90 percent of my soil wash threw problems , most of my fish are bottom dwellers or really like to feed from the bottom and even when the soil has washed threw it dose not cause them problems.

Puffin · « **Reply #76 on:** June 16, 2014, 05:37:05 PM »

Thanks Chris that's good news.
Do you get these gas bubbles too?

chris213 · « **Reply #77 on:** June 16, 2014, 06:44:05 PM »

to be honest no i cant say i have noticed it or certainly not on a large scale , i do get like a algae on the sand in areas were there is not much current ( plan to solve this problem after my vacation ) .
i do tend to get my sand moved around a lot though with my fish constantly disturbing it and also with my cleaning of the tank.
when i have tended to notice areas that seemed to have had food settle in them or areas that have not been disturbed so much i use a plastic fork as a rake and run it threw the sand ( not deep enough to the soil layer) just to make sure that if there is any gasses building up it can release before it builds up.

Puffin · « **Reply #78 on:** June 16, 2014, 08:17:24 PM »

I've been going right down to the bottom of the tank with the skewer. Of course I haven't any fish yet to do any disturbing the sand. But the bubbles are coming from the soil layer not the sand itself. And the sand is well over an inch thick in some places.
Not sure what I should be doing really, have read the gas is toxic to fish.

chris213 · « **Reply #79 on:** June 16, 2014, 08:30:37 PM »

i have just tried this on my tank and it did release a few bubbles so i guess mine is the same as yours and it dose not seem to have affected my fish in the last two months they have been in the tank , i guess its been releasing over time in small stages

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Substrate

Substrate

Author Topic: Substrate (Read 35407 times) 85 replies

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