Tropical Fish Forum

Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Tank Plant Advice => Topic started by: fcmf on September 30, 2016, 07:27:01 PM

Title: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: fcmf on September 30, 2016, 07:27:01 PM: I have split the topic in the Items for Sale or Giveaway section (http://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/items-for-sale-or-giveaway/hornwort-ceratophyllum-demersum/) as it was going off topic. As fcmf's post was the first post after the split, it is showing that she started the post. I am also moving the split section to Fish Tank Plant Advice and changing the title to Hornwort and other plants issues

Sue

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Quote from: Paddyc on September 30, 2016, 10:22:14 AM
I have some Seachem Flourish coming in the mail today so I'm hoping for even better plant performance in the future.
I haven't been using anything for my plants, although I notice that they've been faring a little better since I reduced the length of time the lights are on for. I've been a bit nervous about introducing more chemicals to the tank other than what's in my dechlorinator - but, if using something for plants, would this be the best option?
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Paddyc on September 30, 2016, 09:35:21 PM: My first dose went in tonight @fcmf , will update you on my progress. I'll do 24 hour ammonia and nitrate tests for the next few days as a precaution.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Cod_only_knows on October 01, 2016, 08:04:05 AM: Paddy, I wouldn't worry about it. The biggest danger with products like Excel, Easy-Carbo and the like is suffocation through overdosing. If you see any of your fish gasping at the surface, do an immediate water change and reduce your dosing level.

I've been using Colombo Flora-grow Carbo for over a year without any issues. Plant growth is very strong when I dose, and it noticeable tailed off when I went on holiday for 2 weeks. They are also algaecides and will reduce the algae in your tank.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Andy The Minion on October 01, 2016, 09:12:37 AM: Is it a robust plant? I have just started up a large Cichlid tank which is low light hardscaped at present but I was wondering about a bit of greenery with some very localised lighting.
Regards Andy
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Sue on October 01, 2016, 09:41:32 AM: Hornwort is a stem plant - a stem with lots of needle shaped leaves. The stems themselves are easily broken. And the plants doesn't root in the substrate so the cichlids could pull it up. However, it can also be twisted round decor to anchor it, or used as a floating plant.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Sue on October 01, 2016, 10:56:58 AM: Seachem Flourish (http://www.seachem.com/flourish.php) is a trace mineral fertiliser, often referred to as Seachem Flourish Comprehensive to distinguish it from other Flourish products (the bottle says Flourish...comprehensive supplement for...). It "does not contain significant levels of nitrogen or phosphorus". This is the one I use.
Since soft water contains few minerals of any type it can also be used during fishless cycling in soft water to boost the mineral content.

Seachem Flourish Excel is the 'liquid carbon' product, which is supposed to replace the need for CO₂. As it contains glutaralgehyde, I don't use this one. Some people report it causing problems with shrimps and otos.

Seachem also make Flourish Nitrogen, Flourish Phosphorus and Flourish Potassium supplements and Flourish Tabs.

So many products, all called Flourish ;D
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Matt on October 01, 2016, 03:33:41 PM: Think im going to give easylife profito (basically a cheaper version of flourish) a go along with attempting to remember to dose more regularly easy carbo of I can't get my plants to survive.

I'm starting to think that my softwater is not giving the plants what they need as the hormwort @Sue kindly sent me is loosing needles :( Do those out there that also struggle with plants have softwater?

I am successful with anubias, java moss, crypts (I think) and swords. This in turn makes me wonder if my lights are bright enough, plqnts in any kind of shade also seem to struggle... so frustrating :yikes:
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Sue on October 01, 2016, 03:45:35 PM: Hornwort does lose needles, it's when it does this to extreme you need to worry. And it may have been affected by getting cold in the post.

I have read on another forum that with soft water and fishless cycling, adding a micro-nutrient fertiliser helps with bacterial growth as it puts minerals into the water. Looking up Easylife Profito, that seems to contain micro-nutrients so it should help with plants.

Years ago I got a couple of nice looking rocks from Maidenhead Aquatics. I got up the next morning to find a cloudy tank and a lot of totally bald hornwort stems. It took ages to hoover the needles out of the tank. I tested the rocks in buckets of water and one went cloudy very quickly - it didn't go back in the tank. Whatever it was in the rock didn't agree with hornwort.
This proves that hornwort can be a bit iffy when certain things get in the tank but this was the only time I've had this sort of defoliation.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: fcmf on October 01, 2016, 04:27:46 PM: Quote from: Matt on October 01, 2016, 03:33:41 PM
Do those out there that also struggle with plants have softwater?
I am successful with anubias, java moss, crypts (I think) and swords. This in turn makes me wonder if my lights are bright enough, plqnts in any kind of shade also seem to struggle... so frustrating :yikes:
Yes, @Matt - I struggle and I've got very soft water. I'll update my thread accordingly with my observations of what I'm finding is/isn't working - but I think having the lights on for reduced time (no more than 10 hrs) is a key factor in my more recent success.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Matt on October 01, 2016, 04:35:36 PM: Mine also are on a timer for 10 hours, glad I'm getting that right :cheers:
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: fcmf on October 01, 2016, 05:01:26 PM: Quote from: Matt on October 01, 2016, 04:35:36 PM
Mine also are on a timer for 10 hours, glad I'm getting that right :cheers:

Who knows what factors are involved, though - your water isn't quite as soft as mine, so it's possible that there's a different magic number for you in terms of plant-keeping, so it might even be worth experimenting by reducing/increasing that by an hour or two, just to see if it makes any difference.

I've updated my thread, if that helps at all.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Littlefish on October 01, 2016, 08:24:46 PM: I've struggled with several plants in my hard water. Sometimes certain plants will grow in one tank, but not in another. Sometimes they will die off, but then I try them again a few months later and they are fine (Vallis, I'm looking at you as I type this). Frogbit does particularly well in my betta and panda cory tank, possibly because there is nothing in that tank that eats the roots (v. platies, I'm looking at you).
Some plants do prefer harder or softer water, but the information does not seem to be readily available. It was only recently I found that the water hyacinth I kept buying for my tanks prefers soft water, so the last batch now lives in a tub of rainwater in the garden, and all pieces have sprouted new leaves (may have to move tub into growhouse over winter though).
My lights are not on timers, so get switched on early evening. Even with just around 5 hours of light some plants are growing like weeds, others are just surviving.
I admit that it's possible that I have no idea what I'm doing. :-\
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Matt on October 01, 2016, 08:53:03 PM: Totally agree that there is a lack of and also a lot of conflicting information about plants preferences in respect to water hardness, I've also heard that plant secrete different chemicals which inhibit the growth of other species but this is not well understood scientifically speaking at present.

I suppose I should apologies for having got frustrated before, its plants which are supposed to be indestructible and or grow like weeds for everyone else then slowly die in my tank which frustrate me.

I'm going to compare how the hornwort grows in a shaded are against some I've put in the open as my next thing... though it was floating most of last week so not sure this will make significant difference...
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Littlefish on October 01, 2016, 09:13:36 PM: @Matt those of us quite new to live plants are all in the same situation.
I have anubias sp. and java fern in my axolotl tanks which appear to have not moved/grown for several months, when they were specifically bought as being good for cold water tanks where it is difficult to plant into a substrate, and yet when desperate for some large plants in those tanks I bought a couple of amazon swords and tied them to decor, and they have grown new plants on runners which I have recently planted in my tiger barb tank. An axolotl owner on the caudata forum I use has had a lot of success with the more unusual tropical plants that I've only managed to grow in my warmest tanks, and even then some of my plants have not survived.
It's probably alot more complicated than we realise. ???
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Cod_only_knows on October 01, 2016, 09:15:41 PM: Substrate seems very important. I've changed from a fine gravel to Colombo Florabase. It's still early days (tank has been set up about 3 weeks), but the plants look really healthy. The Crypts are recovering from their initial melt and are now growing well. The stem plants are also going well too. Lights are on for 8 hours to minimise algae. No problems so far.

Thanks for clearing up the Seachem misunderstanding Sue. You'd think they'd give them some different names!
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: apache6467 on October 02, 2016, 09:19:50 AM: I use some sort of liquid CO² but not sure what type. No fish seem to be suffering g as I only put 1 pipette in per day or two. My lights are on for a 6 hour timer and the anubias and some grassy plane that dad gave me from his tank are flourishing. Check TFkeepers daily news for pics coming soon

Apache6467
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Richard W on October 02, 2016, 10:23:21 AM: I've said this here before many times but I'll say it again, put a layer of soil under gravel and your plants will thrive. Stock up with enough fish to provide plenty of carbon dioxide, they are the best and most interesting source. I've had tanks like this for 3 years now, minimum maintenance, plants grow like crazy, fish healthy and happy. It costs very little in money and time. Let the fish poo sink into the gravel, that's plenty of fertiliser. Of course, if you obsessively vacuum the gravel and change 25% of the water every week, you are going to be doing a lot of work and will then have to replace the nutrients you are removing. Apart from topping up, I haven't changed water for three months or more, I have no problems with fish health whatsoever, they are all lively, brightly coloured, eating like pigs and thriving. In those three years, the only additive I have used is water conditioner. Filter maintenance is the only regular task, apart from feeding. I have to remove excess plant growth rather than try to encourage the plants to grow.

The tanks I set up with sand are not as good, the fish poo simply lies on top, doesn't sink in and has to be removed. I'm changing those around this winter and will replace sand with gravel. The gravel will again be lime-free horticultural grit from the garden centre at a fraction of the cost of "aquarium" gravel, which is basically the same stuff in smaller bags at an extortionate price. In the sand tanks, I presently have large pieces of bogwood on which Java Fern, Java Moss, hornwort, Anubias and Hygrophila polysperma all do very well tied on, not rooted in the substrate. There is plenty of oxygen for their roots in the water which is lacking in sand, another reason to prefer gravel. I've not seen any difference in Corydoras health in sand over gravel, they don't seem to mind either way.

Algae are much more likely to be due to excess nutrients rather than light. Cutting back on light is more likely to slow your plant growth rather than reduce algae. Fast growing plants use the nutrients and outcompete the algae and so you want your plants growing strongly.

Any plant will grow in hardish water, given suitable substrate, but hard water plants will not thrive in soft water. I think the advertising authorities should ban "liquid carbon dioxide" as a description, it really isn't true. Most plants will use bicarbonate ions, naturally present in hard water, and any cheap source of bicarbonate would do as well as the commercially promoted expensive stuff.

To quote Diana Walstad again :
"…..... there is little to be gained from restricting the nutrient levels in the aquarium by underfeeding fish, changing water frequently, and cleaning gravel, but then adding it all back as plant fertilizers.(Sounds like a lot of work to me.)"

Apologies to those who have heard all of this from me before, but I know there are a lot of new people on the forum.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Littlefish on October 02, 2016, 12:28:06 PM: Although not new to the forum, I an relatively new to having live plants in my tanks, so happy to read any advice by more experienced people.
Thanks @Richard W , less tank cleaning is always welcome, with the number of tanks I have. :)
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Richard W on October 02, 2016, 12:31:40 PM: But you have to be sure your tank is set up properly before you cut back on vacuuming and water changing. It's really a completely different approach to tank management, it's not quite "all or nothing" but near.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: fcmf on October 02, 2016, 12:47:07 PM: Indeed - very valuable to have @Richard W 's input and expertise again and helpful summary. It does help "take stock" of the situation again.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Matt on October 02, 2016, 02:08:41 PM: @Richard W

This is really interesting Richard, how do you find your water clarity is? Mine is always improved after gravel vacuuming. That said in fairness i only vacuum the areas which are not planted, so presumably we are actually on the same page as each other here.
Difference being my water changes - I do 25% weekly - how heavily do you stick your tanks and how heavily are they planted?
I'm also wondering now about keeping gravel in my tank upgrade in planted areas and leaving send for the non planted areas... This would also allow me to keep some more of the beneficial bacteria me thinks...

Which corys do you have experience with on gravel? Does this include the pygmy sized?

I was confused by your reference to roots needing oxygen, have I understood this correctly?

For the interst of all - something I've eard work well for lighting is to have 2 lighting periods of 4 hours each with a siesta in the middle of the day for at least a couple of hours to allow carbon dioxide levels to build back up.

So many questions! Sorry! I'm determined to get things growing better :)
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Andy The Minion on October 02, 2016, 02:19:10 PM: Hello @Richard W
This system description was new to me so no problem repeating!
I have seen a book by a guy in the US who promotes a sump based 'plant swamp' based on the premise that he never changes water - he claims in years, in a heavily stocked 150 gallon tank, he however tops up weekly with quite large volumes of RO water to compensate for evaporation (I suspect this might be key in his success)
I seem to recall he was quoting good Nitrate levels. Do you check your levels and if so what are they?
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Richard W on October 02, 2016, 03:16:35 PM: Andy, I used to check nitrate levels but rarely bother these days. I would only do so when planning to introduce new fish. I'm looking to restock some tanks fairly soon, at which point I will do large water changes. Fish are more sensitive to sudden changes in nitrates rather than high levels, within reason. I never use RO water, just tap water plus rainwater from time to time. I forgot to mention that I use a lot of floating plants, Amazonian Frogbit by choice, but I also have a lot of duckweed, not popular I know, but an incredibly good plant for reducing nitrates, I just use a flour sieve every so often to scoop a load off the surface, goodbye a load of nitrates. Maybe it's because I'm a biologist/ecologist I always look at the organisms first, the fish and plants, rather than the chemical parameters. If they are healthy, then the tank ecosystem is healthy.

Matt, I don't have a problem with water clarity. I do maintain my filters properly and I just use simple ones with sponge, nothing complicated. I've changed most of my filters over to Eheim Pickup, they are fairly cheap (£20 - £25) but are a decent size and have a good sized piece of sponge, some others I had before had a relatively tiny bit of sponge and were less effective. Some of my tanks are fully stocked, even overstocked by some calculations, but that's another issue I won't go into ................. Others are very lightly stocked, that's because I moved various fish around last spring, intending to restock some tanks, but never got round to it, I'm planning to fully stock all this winter. I'm always very busy in summer and so only do major operations on the tanks between November and March. The tanks are pretty well full with plants, which means I rarely see some of my smaller fish in the open, they prefer to hide away, but I prefer them to live in a more natural way, it's fun watching them sliding in and out among the plants. I should say that I only grow easy plants, I planted quite a few types originally and let them battle it out, some thrived, some died, but I'm keeping fish not an underwater garden.

I've had mixed success with Corydoras. I bought the vast majority of my fish in one go, from a wholesaler, about 240 fish arriving in one delivery to be divided among 9 tanks, quite a day. Some of the Corydoras included in the delivery were already full grown, I'm sure they were wild collected and hadn't stood up to the transport well. About a third died off fairly quickly, never ate or looked well throughout. The others took a good while to settle, but are fine now, I have four species presently including the dwarf C. habrosus which live on a gravel bottom, they have been fine and seem to enjoy grubbing around the plant roots for food.

The two period lighting idea is quite well-known, it's one of the things Diana Walstad recommends.

All living cells need oxygen, including those in plant roots. Where the substrate is very compacted there will be very few air spaces and little oxygen available, that's why vegetables for example grow poorly on a compacted soil. Some plants can do with less than others, so around the edges of ponds you will find plants which are tolerant of low levels growing in the smelly black mud which is very low in oxygen. To a certain extent plants can take oxygen in through their leaves and transport it to the roots. The advantage of gravel is that water can circulate through it much more easily, hence carrying oxygenated water to the roots, while far less gets through sand. I'm convinced that's one reason why plants grow better in gravel than sand.

Think that answers your queries as best I can.
Title: Re: Hornwort and other plant issues
Post by: Cod_only_knows on October 02, 2016, 07:46:29 PM: Richard's right, as far as low-light undemanding plant setups are concerned, livestock can provide all the nitrate and phosphate your plants need to grow. However, fish poo - or the food you feed your fish - is usually lacking in potassium, iron, magnesium, manganese and calcium, which are also important for plant growth. Consequently, if you intend to grow anything a little more demanding, then I'd recommend dosing to ensure the plants don't suffer from nutrient deficiencies in the long term (once the nutrients in the soil are depleted).