Author Topic: Preparations for a Planted Tank (Read 55168 times) 116 replies

ColinB · « **Reply #20 on:** January 28, 2013, 08:58:14 PM »

Good news indeed. My tank was down at the front so I had to do similar things with Heath-Robinson leverage and some cut up squares of old carpet under the cabinet feet.

Helen · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2013, 02:35:32 PM »

It is helpful to see the chemistry behind the CO2 theory. I'm pretty sure I've read the George Farmer article before, but understood it better after reading your explanation, Colin.

I'm trying to get my head round the different water parameters in my tank, and how they all relate. I use a 4KH solution in my CO2 drop checker, and keep the CO2 level just below 30ppm (a light but not lime green). My tank water is about neutral (7.0-7.4, I really struggle to pinpoint exactly which colour). My KH comes out as medium according to the scale (though it is in ppm, and I never manage to get it right when converting to degrees), but the GH comes out pretty low. I guess this makes sense, that most of the acidifying components in my tank water are carbonates, as I know I have very low nitrate levels in my tank and since I've been dosing calcium and (in much smaller quantities, magnesium) nitrates the plants and the fish have all done much better.

Does this agree with your explanation, Colin? I've tried to get my head around the science (but organic chemistry has never been 'my' subject) and ended up going for the trial and error method. It would be nice to know whether my interpretation of 'trial and error' actually agrees with the scientific theory.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Dave.

ColinB · « **Reply #22 on:** January 29, 2013, 03:28:53 PM »

mmmmm.... if you're adding CO₂ then you'll end up with H⁺ ions and HCO₃^- ions. The H⁺ions will bring your pH down and also react with the General Hardness molecules to 'neutralise' them so reducing your water hardness. The HCO₃^- ions will increase your Carbonate Hardness, which will also react with the H⁺ ions to stop the pH coming down.

So the tank water chemistry must depend on the relative ammounts of KH and GH and pH that are in your tap water compared with the ammount of CO₂ that you're adding. This will change depending on the quantity of water you change each week. I don't know enough to say what every value 'should' be, but if the tank is stable and the fish and plants are 'happy' then it ought to be fine. (That's my way of thinking about it, anyway.

)

To convert ppm to ^oHardness then divide ppm by 17.9

I've seen many different tables of what value GH constitutes very soft, soft, medium, hard, very hard etc. What do you use, Helen? (or anybody else for that matter.)

(Sorry Dave!

)

TigzFish · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2013, 05:38:04 PM »

Quote from: Helen on January 29, 2013, 02:35:32 PM

Sorry for hijacking your thread Dave.

Quote from: ColinB on January 29, 2013, 03:28:53 PM

(Sorry Dave! )

No bother, I can handle a bit of thread-jacking.

Quote from: ColinB on January 29, 2013, 03:28:53 PM

I've seen many different tables of what value GH constitutes very soft, soft, medium, hard, very hard etc. What do you use, Helen? (or anybody else for that matter.)

I tend to use a scale derived (in a very unscientific way) from the API GH & KH Conversion Chart:

# of drops	\|	^odKH	\|	ppm GH/KH	\|	Scale
1	\|	1	\|	17.9	\|	V.Soft
2	\|	2	\|	35.8	\|	V.Soft
3	\|	3	\|	53.7	\|	Soft
4	\|	4	\|	71.6	\|	Soft
5	\|	5	\|	89.5	\|	Soft
6	\|	6	\|	107.4	\|	Medium
7	\|	7	\|	125.3	\|	Medium
8	\|	8	\|	143.2	\|	Hard
9	\|	9	\|	161.1	\|	Hard
10	\|	10	\|	179	\|	Hard
11	\|	11	\|	196.9	\|	V.Hard
12	\|	12	\|	214.8	\|	V.Hard

ColinB · « **Reply #24 on:** January 29, 2013, 06:14:10 PM »

Thanks Dave, that's very different to mine:

0-4; very soft
4-8; soft
8-12; medium
12-16; hard
16+; very hard

EDIT: I've just found this in a reasonably scholarly article:

0 - 4 dGH 0 - 70 ppm very soft
4 - 8 dGH 70 - 140 ppm soft
8 - 12 dGH 140 - 210 ppm medium hard
12 - 18 dGH 210 - 320 ppm fairly hard
18 - 30 dGH 320 - 530 ppm hard
over 30 dGH over 530 ppm very hard

EDITED EDIT: And now this.....

0-3 Soft
3-6 Fairly Soft
6-12 Slightly Hard
12-18 Moderately Hard
18-30 Hard
30+ Very Hard

$:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$

TigzFish · « **Reply #25 on:** January 29, 2013, 10:37:04 PM »

I managed to find the chart from my water supplier [PDF Link], yep... it's different again.

German Degrees
< 4.2 - Very Soft
4-7 - Soft
7-14 - Moderately Hard
14-21 - Hard
> 21 - Very Hard

Too many measurements, not enough standards.

TigzFish · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2013, 10:41:17 PM »

Almost finished creating my shortlist of plants now. Workday is getting in the way of enjoying myself.

Anyway, having got the tank leveled out, the dirt is now installed, to about 3" in depth, lightly muddy. I'll drop my top layer of sand on there in a couple of days.

Natalia · « **Reply #27 on:** January 29, 2013, 11:17:45 PM »

Hi all,
I thought I had to “throw” something into your discussions. I noticed that there is one thing which is not mentioned/taken into the consideration. That is the CO2 uptake by plants. Plants use carbon as their major “building and growth” source. In fact, aquatic plants composition is mostly of carbon – something like 40% (or 60%? – I don’t quite remember) of aquatic plant tissue is pure carbon. So, all calculations on acidity, KH and PH values in a heavily planted tank HAVE to take this fact into consideration. A heavily planted tank with initial (tap water) KH of 3 or 4, dosed with of CO2 will end up most likely with the higher KH than the tap water. One has to dose AMPLE amounts of CO2 into a heavily planted tank to see any effects of the water becoming more acidic.
Helen – don’t worry about organic chemistry not being your subject. This all is a common sense, really: the reason we dose CO2 into our tanks is not to increase acidity or alter water parameters in any way. The reason CO2 is being used in planted tanks is to provide the plants with their main “food source” – that’s it. The “food” for plants is there to be “eaten” and once this happened, the water parameters should be the same as tap water... Equally, the dry salts (EI derived) dosing is there to provide food for the plants – these also will be “eaten” (or should be eaten) by them. So, there is no need to make things way too complicated.
EI method has a base statement of “unlimited nutrients supply” which means that plants have no lack of any single nutrient at any given time. CO2 is the MOST important part of it. So, to all: stop worrying about acidifying effect of the CO2 dosing if you have at least moderately planted tanks! Your plants will “eat” all this CO2 (and then ask for some more): no PH crashes, no acidifying – simple as that....
P.S. Dave, your tank looks good!

ColinB · « **Reply #28 on:** January 30, 2013, 11:46:41 AM »

From Wikipedia - just to muddy the water even more!

Hard/soft classification
Because it is the precise mixture of minerals dissolved in the water, together with the water's pH and temperature, that determines the behavior of the hardness, a single-number scale does not adequately describe hardness. However, the United States Geological Survey uses the following classification into hard and soft water,[18]

Classification hardness in ppm    hardness in dGH/°dH
Soft     0–60     0.3-3.00
Moderately hard     61–120     3.72-6.75
Hard     121–180     6.78–10.08
Very hard       ≥ 181     ≥ 10.14

TigzFish · « **Reply #29 on:** February 03, 2013, 05:48:00 PM »

Next step now completed, installed sand and created gravel areas and the 'focal point'.

Helen · « **Reply #30 on:** February 03, 2013, 06:15:02 PM »

The start of the layout is looking good. I can't wait to see it progress.

Just one thing, that I'm not sure if it would be nit picking (my apologies if it is). Your heater appears to be tucked in the rear left hand corner. I think it needs to be where the water can flow around it well, to avoid temperature gradients in the tank. You could find that the water gets really warm in the back corner and appears too cool at your thermometer.

By the way, when you did your leak tests for your tank, did you fill it right up and have the heater running? What I mean is, have you tested it, without the substrate etc as it will be when set up - at running temperature and volume? I ask, because I tested my new tank as instructed, (I think half or two thirds full) and without the heater. I then planted and filled it up and turned the heater on. And a couple days later, it cracked. The conclusion was that it was a manufacturing defect (I was unlucky enough to get the tank with a fault in the glass), but I can't help wondering if I'd tested the tank with the heater and completely full, that I would have saved myself A LOT of stress. Getting all the plants and substrate out while the best part of 170l of water were trying to escape across my lounge wasn't much fun. The upside to it was that I had no snails till I bought new plants about 6 months later, as it meant all my plants has been thoroughly washed. (They spent several weeks 'planted' in a bucket on the window sill, while I kept my filter cycling in a black bin that I had spare and was able to siphon some of the escapee water into)

I hope I haven't scared you, I would just rather save you the stress (although it is something that happens so rarely).

TigzFish · « **Reply #31 on:** February 03, 2013, 06:35:10 PM »

Hi Helen,

No you haven't scared me, quite the opposite in fact, I'm pleased to get sanity checks thrown in (or should that be insanity checks).

The equipment and leak test was done over a weekend; tank was full, heater was on, and I was also testing my new filter too. No leaks or cracks, so everything is going ahead as planned.

Agreed on the placement of the heater, it may very well need moving, or at the very least placing at a diagonal angle. The inlet is on the same corner, with the nozzle facing to the right, along the back of the tank. I'll very likely change the direction of the nozzle (I took off the spray bar as I didn't like the effect), once the tank is running, probably aiming it towards the front right corner.

I have two thermometers, one is the stick-on variety as supplied by the manufacturer which is on the front left, and a spare internal liquid thermometer is out on the right front. During the equipment test, the water temperature was the same on both sides after 24 hours, but I'm equally conscious that the currents will change quite a bit once plants and decor are in there.

I'll be keeping a watch on both readings, just in case a problem arises, and as I'm not planning on putting anything in except plants for the first 4 weeks, I'll have plenty of time to make any finer adjustments.

TigzFish · « **Reply #32 on:** February 05, 2013, 04:23:37 PM »

Next phase is now complete; plant list.

I'm on leave from work from this Thursday for a week, so am planning a trip to what looks like a very good plant stockist in Wrexham (about an hour drive each way for me). It looks like they stock plants from Tropica, and looks like the biggest stockist with a shop within a reasonable distance from me. Their online shop is pretty nice too.

Here's the key to the attached plan.

1: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
2: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
3: Echinodorus ‘Red Special’
4: Anubias barteri var. angustifolia
5: Cryptocoryne x willisii
6: Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii'
7: Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii'
8: Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan'
9: Echinodorus quadricostatus
10: Echinodorus quadricostatus
11: Anubias barteri var. angustifolia
12: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green'
13: Staurogyne repens
14: Staurogyne repens
15: Eleocharis parvula
16: Eleocharis parvula
17: Eleocharis parvula
18: Staurogyne repens
19: Staurogyne repens
20: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Tropica'

A: Mango Root (Small, hand sized)
B: Mango Root (Small, hand sized)
C: Bogwood (Double hand sized, nice shape not too extravagant)

Hopefully I've chosen well enough, what do you plant experts think to the choices?

Forgot to mention... the arrow in the bottom right on the plan is my normal viewing angle from my favorite TV chair.

ColinB · « **Reply #33 on:** February 05, 2013, 04:36:15 PM »

Wow - that's organised of you. Very impressive.

My thoughts would be....

....should some of the bogwood be hidden amongst the plants a bit? Or perhaps some rockery amongst the plants?

....are you going to have any Anubias or Java Fern on your bogwood, I've got Java Fern on mine and I think it looks good (but I would.)

....might it end up a bit symmetrical, a bit too formal? Or perhaps you're aiming that way.

Whatever, just remember that..... "It didn't happen if there're no pictures"

. A complete photo diary is required please.

TigzFish · « **Reply #34 on:** February 05, 2013, 07:25:52 PM »

Hi Colin, thanks for the input.

My intent, is to make the two small Mango root pieces into smaller features in the two foreground locations to help break up the wide open space. The larger Bogwood piece, which is being situated on a focal point I'm hoping to make stand out as the main tank feature, of course.

All three pieces do require addition of plants/moss, but I'm undecided as yet which to go for. I like the idea of Java Moss on the Mango root, and I think that will work very well. The Bogwood needs something different, a larger plant, possibly broad leaved, with a different colour than the normal greens. Another small 'carpeting' style plant would also be nice on the lower parts. For that, I have purposefully placed the Eleocharis parvula close by (15, 16 & 17) to, I hope, encourage it to grow around the base. Do you think it might need something else on the Bogwood directly?

Symmetry I'm trying to avoid, though the left side 'bed' does seem rather regimented. I'm hoping it won't look like that once the plants are in and growing.

Suggestions are very much appreciated, this is the first planted tank I'm attempting, so I'm keen to hear what others think.

I nabbed the wood from my FishBox, much to the consternation of the Amano's who seem to be permanently feeding off them. Attached some wood placement pics for a bit of scale.

TigzFish · « **Reply #35 on:** February 05, 2013, 07:53:42 PM »

Quote from: ColinB on February 05, 2013, 04:36:15 PM

Whatever, just remember that..... "It didn't happen if there're no pictures" . A complete photo diary is required please.

Absolutely. I'll be taking pics during the build and at weekly intervals after that to see how much things progress.

The lighting is a bit brighter than my FishBox, so I'm hoping that my big digital camera will cope better with fish photography too. That's the next project... a whole other realm to discover.

ColinB · « **Reply #36 on:** February 06, 2013, 07:28:49 AM »

It's easier to imagine with the pictures - but I still can't imagine the height and spread of mature plants. But that's half the fun, watching it change and mature. They're great pieces of wood and the bogwood definitely calls out for some attached plants. I only know of Anubias and Java Fern as plants that will attach themselves to wood and they're both green.

What background is that? It looks really 3D but the suction pads give it away. It's very impressive.

I'm going to really enjoy watching this thread - thanks.

TigzFish · « **Reply #37 on:** February 06, 2013, 07:46:20 PM »

Funny you should mention 3d background Colin, I was going to go down that route when I first decided on a bigger tank. However, for whatever reason I decided not to bother and located the picture from a small display at my local Maidenhead Aquatics. The picture is a the usual glossy double-sided affair, but the big rocks in the picture was similar to a 3d background I had been looking at. The brand is "SuperFish Deco Poster".

I'm going to have another browse through the plant catalogue tonight and see what I can spot for the Bog wood. If I can't decide I'll ask the stockist based on my tank parameters and see what they come up with. I'm on holiday now, so as long as the shop in Wrexham have everything in, I'm hoping to go down on Friday. My credit card is already cowering in expectation of the £150 (ish) purchase.

Edit: Make that £183. Going for extra Java Moss for the bigger Bog wood along with attaching a Anubias barteri var. coffeefolia, which looks nicely broad leaved, and apparently can flower underwater too.

Helen · « **Reply #38 on:** February 07, 2013, 10:35:48 AM »

I was going to suggest lace java fern for your bogwood. It is still green, but a different texture to any of the other plants I've seen. I have taken a pic of the larger specimen I have, but it doesn't actually show you anything. (It is the bushy plant on the left in my gallery photo) The scientific name is Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'. It might actually be a Tropica brand!

If you are interested in it, I can post you some (as long as someone gives me instructions on how to successfully post aquatic plants). My plants are doing so well, that I am having to heavily prune them. The plants closest to the water surface seem to be the most successful. Till now I've only taken off leaves, but I have loads of rhizomes that are now floating as they have run out of wood/ stone to fix to.

Mervyn · « **Reply #39 on:** February 07, 2013, 10:44:27 AM »

Hi Helen,
Is that water wisteria in the foreground?? if it is how have you got it bushy? I have read conflicting reports on how to prune it. I have just cut the top from mine, and replanted the top and left the bottom in place, is this right?

Oops did not mean to jump into someone else's thread...Apologies

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Preparations For A Planted Tank

Preparations For A Planted Tank

Author Topic: Preparations for a Planted Tank (Read 55168 times) 116 replies

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