There is no point using co2 injection unless you have a high light values, you will still get plant growth with out just not as fast. liquid co2 could be used if you wanted but again is not necessary, you may have to be careful with liquid co2 in low light as the dose has to be kept low as the plants don't use as much with low light.
you will just have to plan a bit more as regards to plant type. There are a lot of good options for low light plants, java fern, any anubias, any cryptocoryne, some amazon swords, vallisneria and sagittaria will all grow with t8 lights.
The most important aspect for a planted tank if you want success is a good nutrient rich substrate.
There are a few ways to get this you can buy a purpose made substrate for plants
Another way which is some what out of fashion these days is to use dirt, this is cheap and works well on low tech tanks but people don't use this method much anymore (except me) if you want further info on that option just give me a shout.
Most of the planted tank sites these days all recommend power substrates co2 and regular ferts and don't cater much for the low tech side of things or if they do I have not found them.
This site.... http://www.tropica.com/en/plants.aspx (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants.aspx) ....is well worth a browse, especially as it has an 'easy' plant section for plants that can cope with low light and no CO2 injection. It's where a lot of retailers get their plant stock from. It even has a section on layouts that you can filter by tank size etc and with a key to which plant is which in the layout.
I will certainly be interested in hearing more about the dirt technique, which although much less expensive than manufactured substrate, so far it seems like a little more effort to get it set up right
3 wpg is quite a reasonable amount of light. It is effectively a high-tech tank level of light (meaning carefully selected substrate and additional dosing) – high labour and intensive care .
Another thing – wpg itself is a very-very inaccurate and outdated method of measuring the light (as I stated many times when I wrote on the forum of the “old version” of Think Fish). As I said then, being outdated, it is still the one which can be used – simply because not many aquarists have a possibility to measure PAR! What I am trying to say is that 1 wpg of light in one tank is not the same as 1 wpg of light in another – it is a matter of careful trial and (possibly) correcting errors.
Substrate. I believe, the types can be roughly grouped into 4 categories:
- Dirt with a layer of inert small grade gravel on top
- Inert gravel (should be a very small grade – 1-3mm grains).
- Nutrient rich substrates which do not require a layer on top. (like Eco Complete, Flourite and the likes)
- Nutrient rich layer like Laterite topped with inert substrate.
It is a misconception to think that some plants can only get their nutrients from the substrate – ALL of the plants can be “fed” through water column dosing.
One word about CO2. CO2 is a very valuable addition – even low tech tanks benefit from it. I have a selection of medium-low to high tech tanks with or without CO2 supplement, so I observed this first hand.
“Liquid CO2” is an incorrect term. I noticed that many people think that a substance from bottles is the same as dosing CO2. It is not, really. Liquid supplements are CARBON supplements which provide, well,... carbon to the plants. This carbon is not quite in the same form as gas CO2
The last thing: Dave, I think you have stretched the fish compatibility in your tank a little bit. The odd one out are your Vietmanese Minnows. They are temperate fish and their temperature requirement is lower than that of your other fish. They may seem happy but it is difficult to create safe margin on temperature tolerance with the other fish you have (it is barely 1-2 degrees)
All I do with a dirt tank is use a peat free organic potting compost form the local garden centre about 3 to 4 inch deep and then top that with an inch of coarse sand or fine gravel
The tank I have at the mo was set up 3 years ago dirted, planted and then just left to get on with it, I have never added any liquid ferts, tabs, co2 or liquid carbon to it and all the plants have grown just fine under t8's.
Another thing to think about....
It's hard to tell from your fish stock if you have soft, medium or hard water as all your fish seem to do well over a wide range of hardness (so I'll guess hard because you chose that specific tetra).
Anyway, if by chance your water is soft with a low KH (less than 3 or 4) then CO2 injection can cause a pH crash - or at least an unstable pH. Not good for the fish.
How long do you think it will last before the nutrients get used up?
Possibly then, I would need to buy the additional top layer, unless you think I could use what I have already
I don't agree with Colin that adding CO2 to soft water makes the pH more unstable. KH is a measure of carbonate hardness and by adding CO2 you are increasing the amount of carbon and oxygen molecules available to increase your carbonates. CO2 itself is acidic and can reduce the pH, but in my tank, it has also made it far more stable. It does however, leave my tank vulnerable to pH fluctuations when the CO2 runs out, so I have to keep a careful eye on that.
I'll be watching this thred with interest as I'll be going down this 200litre route at the end of this year.
I'm really interested to see how you get on Dave with your low tech tank, as it is something I was very interested in, till I 'got going' with my fish tank.
The floor is much lower on the left side and is going to take a 0.5" block under the left side of the cabinet to level it out. I was all set to do that tonight by grabbing my car-jack to lift the cabinet so I can get some blocks cut and positioned. Unfortunately my jack doesn't go low enough so I can't get it under the 3" gap under the cabinet. I'll have to source another jack to get that sorted. Bit of a pain, but I'm not really surprised with my Jerry-built 1970's suburban shoe-box. ;D
Sorry for hijacking your thread Dave.
(Sorry Dave! :-[)
I've seen many different tables of what value GH constitutes very soft, soft, medium, hard, very hard etc. What do you use, Helen? (or anybody else for that matter.)
# of drops | | | odKH | | | ppm GH/KH | | | Scale |
1 | | | 1 | | | 17.9 | | | V.Soft |
2 | | | 2 | | | 35.8 | | | V.Soft |
3 | | | 3 | | | 53.7 | | | Soft |
4 | | | 4 | | | 71.6 | | | Soft |
5 | | | 5 | | | 89.5 | | | Soft |
6 | | | 6 | | | 107.4 | | | Medium |
7 | | | 7 | | | 125.3 | | | Medium |
8 | | | 8 | | | 143.2 | | | Hard |
9 | | | 9 | | | 161.1 | | | Hard |
10 | | | 10 | | | 179 | | | Hard |
11 | | | 11 | | | 196.9 | | | V.Hard |
12 | | | 12 | | | 214.8 | | | V.Hard |
Whatever, just remember that..... "It didn't happen if there're no pictures" ;). A complete photo diary is required please. ;D
I was going to suggest lace java fern for your bogwood. ... The scientific name is Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'. It might actually be a Tropica brand!
Date | KH | pH | Phosphate | Ammonia | NitrIte | NitrAte |
Sat 16 Feb | 2 | 7.2 | 5 | 0.25 | 0 | 5 |
Tue 19 Feb | 3 | 7.5 | 4 | 0.25 | 0 | 5 |
Thu 21 Feb | 3 | 7.5 | 4 | 0.25 | 0.1 | 5 |
Sun 24 Feb | 3 | 7.5 | 4 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 5 |
Date | KH | pH | Phosphate | Ammonia | NitrIte | NitrAte |
Tue 26 Feb | 4 | 7.5 | 4 | 0 | 0.25 | 20 |
Thu 28 Feb | 4 | 7.5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 10 |
Sun 03 Mar | 4 | 7.5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 10 |
(http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=161.0;attach=441;image)
Date | KH | pH | Phosphate | Ammonia | NitrIte | NitrAte |
Tue 05 Mar | 5 | 7.5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 7.5 |
Thu 07 Mar | 5 | 7.5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 7.5 |
Sun 10 Mar | 5 | 7.5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 7.5 |
Date | KH | pH | Phosphate | Ammonia | NitrIte | NitrAte |
Tue 12 Mar | 4 | 7.5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
Thu 14 Mar | 4 | 7.5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
Sun 17 Mar | 4 | 7.5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 7.5 |
Date | KH | pH | Phosphate | Ammonia | NitrIte | NitrAte |
Sun 17 Mar (post dose) | - | - | - | 2 | 0 | - |
Mon 18 Mar | - | - | - | 1.5 | 0 | 7.5 |
Tue 19 Mar | 4 | 7.5 | 4 | 0.5 | 2 | 30 |
Wed 20 Mar | - | - | - | 0 | 0 | 30 (was expecting higher) |
Date | KH | pH | Phosphate | Ammonia | NitrIte | NitrAte |
Wed 20 Mar (post dose) | - | - | - | 2 | 0 | 5 |
Thu 21 Mar | 3 | 7.5 | 5 | 0.5 | 2 | 30 |
Fri 22 Mar | - | - | - | 0 | 0 | 40 |
Fri 22 Mar (post dose) | - | - | - | 2 | - | - |
Sat 23 Mar | - | - | - | 0 | 5 | 100 |
Sun 24 Mar | 3 | 7.5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
Sun 24 Mar (post dose) | - | - | - | 2 | - | - |
What's that tall, lightish-green plant in the first photo at the back, middle-right, behind the third plant-pot from the left, please? I like it and couldn't work it out from your planting diagram.
Date | KH | pH | Phosphate | Ammonia | NitrIte | NitrAte |
Mon 25 Mar | - | - | - | 0 | 0.25 | 30 |
Tue 26 Mar | 3 | 7.5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 7.5 |
Tue 26 Mar (post dose) | - | - | - | 2 | 0 | < 5 |
Wed 27 Mar | - | - | - | 0 | 0.25 | 30 |
Thu 28 Mar | 2 | 7.5 | 7.5 | 0 | 0 | 30 |
Fri 29 Mar | - | - | - | - | - | 7.5 |
Sat 30 Mar | - | - | - | - | - | - |
Sun 31 Mar | 4 | 7.5 | 7.5 | 0 | 0 | 10 |
End of Week #6
@ColinB, I've had to trim runner for the Echinodorus quadricostatus (link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=068)) 3 times since I planted it on Feb 26th. It seems to be a very adept grower.
In addition, I have 6 Cherry Barbs (2m, 3f)... and I love 'em already.
@ColinB, I've had to trim runner for the Echinodorus quadricostatus (link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=068)) 3 times since I planted it on Feb 26th. It seems to be a very adept grower.
Thanks Dave.... I might try an Echinodorus quad, but you do seem to have more light in your tank than me. Though it's impossible to tell from piccies. I have 1 x 11Watt bulb on a flexi-stem over the glass evaporation covers. It looks like you have 2 x long tubes in there and that'll make a big difference I would think.
In addition, I have 6 Cherry Barbs (2m, 3f)... and I love 'em already.p.s. 2+3=5 ;D ;D
Thanks Dave.... I might try an Echinodorus quad, but you do seem to have more light in your tank than me. Though it's impossible to tell from piccies. I have 1 x 11Watt bulb on a flexi-stem over the glass evaporation covers. It looks like you have 2 x long tubes in there and that'll make a big difference I would think.
Ahh right. I have 2x30watt T8's in here.
**edit**
I lost a Glowlight Tetra female this morning, she was floating upside down at the surface. No sign of any infections, belly has been partially eaten. The other 4 are perfectly ok, no sign of any problems. :-(
Most of the algae seems to be under control now, especially the brown hair algae which is not growing at all now. I haven't seen any Green Spot algae on the glass, and no further instances of green algae on the sand has appeared either. My only remaining issue is the green algae in the water column which is making everything look dirty (of course).
Date | | | GH | | | KH | | | pH | | | Phosphate | | | Ammonia | | | NitrIte | | | NitrAte | | | Water Change | | |
Mon 1st Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Tue 2nd Apr | | | 5 | | | 4 | | | 7.5 | | | 3 | | | 0 | | | 0 | | | 10 | | | 50% | | |
Wed 3rd Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Thu 4th Apr | | | 6 | | | 5 | | | 7.5 | | | 2 | | | 0 | | | 0 | | | 7.5 | | | 50% | | |
Fri 5th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Sat 6th Apr | | | 7 | | | 5 | | | 7.5 | | | 2 | | | 0 | | | 0 | | | 5 | | | 50% | | |
Sun 7th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Date | | | GH | | | KH | | | pH | | | Phosphate | | | Ammonia | | | NitrIte | | | NitrAte | | | Water Change | | |
Mon 8th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Tue 9th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Wed 10th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Thu 11th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Fri 12th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Sat 13th Apr | | | 7 | | | 6 | | | 7.5 | | | 1 | | | 0 | | | 0 | | | 10 | | | 50% | | |
Sun 7th Apr | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | | - | | |
Anyway – after re-reading the thread slowly I still am confused about what you are doing. You have created such a “mish-mash” of the different technics – it is simply amazing. It could have been a break through in the aquarium hobby if it worked but is not so far...
First of all – you “silent cycle” was not really one
you used dirt as a medium but you need at least 100% more rooted plants to neutralize the negative effects of putting highly “active” substrate medium – the more, the better.
You have experienced Ammonia spikes – these would have not happen if you had more plants. You dirt substrate is leaching ammonia into the water BECAUSE there is no enough plant cover! The moss and Anubias will NOT solve this problem as their uptake of nutrients is very slow. I can predict that the Ammonia spikes will be less and less frequent and less intense as your dirt matures in the tank but you will still have a few more.
This is what caused you green water algae and the death of your tetra.
The rise of Phosphate in the water column is again triggered by so much of fresh dirt without enough of rooted plants.
Your extensive water changes may help against green water (not 100% guarantee and a lot of water changes before you see the permanent result). The water changes are necessary for the foreseeable future to help to keep you fish alive, though.
The course of action (you may take it or leave it as you wish): immediately buy hornwort (ceratophyllum demersum), wash it and add to the tank (floating plant); continue with water changes; buy vallis and more of starogine, plant them; continue with water changes; as vallis and starogine grow, you may gradually remove hornwort. This will ensure that you tank will not go into a complete disaster but will recover and “perk up”.
That’s it. Take it or leave it – you decide.
Have you thought about any floating plants to offer some shady spots?