Tropical Fish Forum

Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Tank Plant Advice => Topic started by: TigzFish on January 22, 2013, 10:16:26 PM

Title: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 22, 2013, 10:16:26 PM
Hi folks,

First, sorry for the long post.

Posting in the plants section as my query is specifically about creating an environment for plants.  I'm 11 months in to the fish-keeping hobby and have decided to start a second tank, prior to closing down my current 64 litre.  My new tank is a Fluval Roma 200 (just over 3 ft, 200 litre), currently sitting on the floor of my lounge until I get the cabinet for it this coming weekend. The internal U4 has been replaced with a AquaManta EFX 200 External Canister in a swap out deal done with the retailer.

The Roma comes with 2 Hagen T8 strip lights, one called Power-Glo, the other an Aqua-Glo, both rated at 30w each. From what I have read, there seems to be a magic formula of "3w per gallon (us)" to calculate the appropriate wattage of lighting for a planted tank.  For mine, this would equate to a whopping 158w, more than double what I have now. Having looked around, I am unable to locate any source of strips that would give me this level of wattage, and I am unwilling to do what I believe is called "overdrive" for the lights; I need to keep things as simple as possible.

Question 1: Is this formula actually a valid assumption? I am unable to find any citation of a technical source that validates the formula, so am taking it as being "guidance based on experience and observation", rather than a defacto standard.

So, based on my default lighting scheme, and accepting the implication that this would be a "low-light" environment (despite it looking jolly bright to my poor human eyes), I am now in search of the most convenient method to provide both a substrate and nutrient environment.

My research has highlighted CO2 injection as being unnecessary in a "low-light" environment as boosting the CO2 would not be required due to the lower growth rates.

Question 2: Is CO2 injection (by kit, tablets or liquid) absolutely necessary in this scenario?

Next, I have managed to get myself to an impasse in regards to substrate.  I have horticultural sand, used exclusively in my current tank, and I have a gravel (a brown/black/white type about 3-5mm in non-round size).  Having read various articles that concern feeding plants, I am confused.

Question 3: Would I need a special base layer of substrate to provide iron & nutrients to root systems, or is a sand/gravel substrate sufficient, with an appropriate regime of dosing fertilizer through liquid and/or tablets?

That's a big question I know, as there are so many options, but I am looking for a "best bet" scenario given the lighting, and no CO2 injection.  I am going to try an source "easy" plants of various sizes, and "carpeting" plants too.

Ok, you can beat me with sticks now.  ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ady81 on January 23, 2013, 12:26:49 AM
hi dave,
            Yes this is viable for a planted tank you will just have to plan a bit more as regards to plant type.
 There are a lot of good options for low light plants, java fern, any anubias, any cryptocoryne, some amazon swords, vallisneria and sagittaria will all grow with t8 lights.
 There is no point using co2 injection unless you have a high light values, you will still get plant growth with out just not as fast. liquid co2 could be used if you wanted but again is not necessary, you may have to be careful with liquid co2 in low light as the dose has to be kept low as the plants don't use as much with low light.
I have kept many a planted tank on t8's and no added co2.
The most important aspect for a planted tank if you want success is a good nutrient rich substrate.
There are a few ways to get this you can buy a purpose made substrate for plants, these can range in price and need to be laid in different ways depending on the make you go for, I don't use these but all the info for them should come from the maker. Root tabs do work but you have to keep using them most will last for about 4 to 6 months then you would have to dose them again, if you have a lot of root feeding plants you may find you have to dose more often.
Another way which  is some what out of fashion these days is to use dirt, this is cheap and works well on low tech tanks but people don't use this method much anymore (except me) if you want further info on that option just give me a shout.
There are some good online plant retailors and some good books on the subject I can recommend but don't know the rules about this on this site. Most of the planted tank sites these days all recommend power substrates co2 and regular ferts and don't cater much for the low tech side of things or if they do I have not found them.
    I hope this gives you some where to start, this can be a very confusing subject.
Once you have a plan in place regarding what road you want to go down I could give you more detailed advise.
          All the best Aiden
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 23, 2013, 07:37:38 AM
This site.... http://www.tropica.com/en/plants.aspx (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants.aspx) ....is well worth a browse, especially as it has an 'easy' plant section for plants that can cope with low light and no CO2 injection. It's where a lot of retailers get their plant stock from. It even has a section on layouts that you can filter by tank size etc and with a key to which plant is which in the layout.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 23, 2013, 07:14:48 PM
Thanks for the great reply Aiden, and welcome to ThinkFish!

There is no point using co2 injection unless you have a high light values, you will still get plant growth with out just not as fast. liquid co2 could be used if you wanted but again is not necessary, you may have to be careful with liquid co2 in low light as the dose has to be kept low as the plants don't use as much with low light.

I am glad I have managed to get the question about CO2 injection right, I don't like messing about for no reason.

you will just have to plan a bit more as regards to plant type.  There are a lot of good options for low light plants, java fern, any anubias, any cryptocoryne, some amazon swords, vallisneria and sagittaria will all grow with t8 lights.

That's a relief, and those names I have seen a great deal too in various retailers, so looks good.

The most important aspect for a planted tank if you want success is a good nutrient rich substrate.

This is the bit I'm really having trouble with, trying to get my head around the various ways of going about this.

There are a few ways to get this you can buy a purpose made substrate for plants
Another way which  is some what out of fashion these days is to use dirt, this is cheap and works well on low tech tanks but people don't use this method much anymore (except me) if you want further info on that option just give me a shout.

I'll have to see what brands are available locally and do some more reading I think.  If a substrate is the best way, rather than using just an inert substrate and dosing with tablets and/or liquid, then I'll have to make jolly certain my design is going to work. (Focal Point & The Golden Rule have already been considered).  It sounds like a proper nightmare moving rooted plants that have a lower rich substrate.

I have bumped into a couple of references regarding the use of dirt, which is something I had never even considered. I will certainly be interested in hearing more about the dirt technique, which although much less expensive than manufactured substrate, so far it seems like a little more effort to get it set up right. A blog entry talked about using dirt and then adding all sorts of extra stuff to the dirt... it put me off reading further for now.

Most of the planted tank sites these days all recommend power substrates co2 and regular ferts and don't cater much for the low tech side of things or if they do I have not found them.

Yeah, I have noticed that too.  There does seem to be a very high proportion of high-tech solutions, most of which just helps to muddy the waters, but for the low-tech budget, I'm gradually getting a handle on stuff.

I'm of the age where "keep it simple, stupid" has a big meaning for me. Those younger folk can do all the running around, I just want peace and tranquility.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 23, 2013, 07:17:27 PM
This site.... http://www.tropica.com/en/plants.aspx (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants.aspx) ....is well worth a browse, especially as it has an 'easy' plant section for plants that can cope with low light and no CO2 injection. It's where a lot of retailers get their plant stock from. It even has a section on layouts that you can filter by tank size etc and with a key to which plant is which in the layout.

Thanks Colin, I wondered where I had seen that logo before.  Bookmarked that site for reference, lots of very interesting looking plants there, even in the easy section. The layout ideas are really helpful too, and has given me plenty to look at over the next couple of days.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Natalia on January 23, 2013, 10:39:12 PM
Hi all,
I completely agree with what Colin and Aiden. However I would like to add a little to what they said already.
First of all – 3 wpg is quite a reasonable amount of light. It is effectively a high-tech tank level of light (meaning carefully selected substrate and additional dosing) – high labour and intensive care . All the plants mentioned by Aiden can happily grow in about 1 wpg max.
Another thing – wpg itself is a very-very inaccurate and outdated method of measuring the light (as I stated many times when I wrote on the forum of the “old version” of Think Fish).  As I said then, being outdated, it is still the one which can be used – simply because not many aquarists have a possibility to measure PAR! What I am trying to say is that 1 wpg of light in one tank is not the same as 1 wpg of light in another – it is a matter of careful trial and (possibly) correcting errors.
Substrate. I believe, the types can be roughly grouped into 4 categories:
-   Dirt with a layer of inert small grade gravel on top I never heard of it being used in high light tanks – it is a classic Diana Walstad method for low light low maintenance aquariums. I highly respect Diana, have corresponded with her personally but never tried this method myself. Aiden will be able to share his experience on how exactly he keeps his tank/s (e.g. low or high light, etc.)
-   Inert gravel (should be a very small grade – 1-3mm grains). This is possible to use in both high (-ish) and low tech tanks. It is actually not 100 % correct that plants will ONLY thrive with a rich substrate. In time mulm accumulates in this sort of gravel, and being drawn to the bottom layer, it serves as a perfect growing medium. Combined with water column dosing, it can support quite a lush growth. I have one tank (out of my 6) thriving on this method. It is a misconception to think that some plants can only get their nutrients from the substrate – ALL of the plants can be “fed” through water column dosing.
-   Nutrient rich substrates which do not require a layer on top (like Eco Complete, Flourite and the likes) – my favourites, suitable to both low and high tech aquariums
-   Nutrient rich layer like Laterite topped with inert substrate (much like dirt topped with gravel – but Diana dismisses this method for her how tech tanks)
I have tried all of the above except dirt. I can say, as much as with the lighting – you have to choose what you want: low tech (not so much work but limited types of plants you can grow) to high tech (lots of work, essential dosing of nutrients and CO2 but you can grow practically any plant there) OR – anything (ANYTHING, really!) in between.
One word about CO2. CO2 is a very valuable addition – even low tech tanks benefit from it. I have a selection of medium-low to high tech tanks with or without CO2 supplement, so I observed this first hand. “Liquid CO2” is an incorrect term. I noticed that many people think that a substance from bottles is the same as dosing CO2. It is not, really. Liquid supplements are CARBON supplements which provide, well,... carbon to the plants. This carbon is not quite in the same form as gas CO2, though – I thought I would clear this up.
The last thing: Dave, I think you have stretched the fish compatibility in your tank a little bit. The odd one out are your Vietmanese Minnows. They are temperate fish and their temperature requirement is lower than that of your other fish. They may seem happy but it is difficult to create safe margin on temperature tolerance with the other fish you have (it is barely 1-2 degrees)...  Just a thought...
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ady81 on January 23, 2013, 11:27:33 PM
Quote
I will certainly be interested in hearing more about the dirt technique, which although much less expensive than manufactured substrate, so far it seems like a little more effort to get it set up right

All I do with a dirt tank is use a peat free organic potting compost form the local garden centre about 3 to 4 inch deep and then top that with an inch of coarse sand or fine gravel, you can use pea gravel but some small bits of dirt tend to pollute the water and muddy it up a bit. You can add a load of extras to this but that is not needed, the only time I have do that is if I'm keeping certain types of special plants that do better with it but they have done ok with out . Red clay is something you can add if you wanted some big echinodorus for example but they will grow fine in just plain dirt. Just make sure you get a peat free organic compost other wise it can pollute the water with the chemical ferts in them or drop the ph with the peat.
At the moment I keep my tanks low tech and low maintenance once its planted I just leave the plants to grow how they want and don't go moving or trimming that often unless I don't like the look, my rule is as long as it looks good to me I just leave them to it (i'm the one who's got to look at it all day).
The tank I have at the mo  was set up 3 years ago dirted, planted and then just left to get on with it, I have never added any liquid ferts, tabs, co2 or liquid carbon to it and all the plants have grown just fine under t8's.
Planted tanks are nothing to be scared of and can be as easy or as hard for work load as you want to make them depending on what you want to get out of it, but there is no reason you can't have a heavily planted tank with little long term extra work.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 24, 2013, 07:52:59 AM
Another thing to think about....

It's hard to tell from your fish stock if you have soft, medium or hard water as all your fish seem to do well over a wide range of hardness (so I'll guess hard because you chose that specific tetra).
Anyway, if by chance your water is soft with a low KH (less than 3 or 4) then CO2 injection can cause a pH crash - or at least an unstable pH. Not good for the fish.

As I said.... just a thought.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 24, 2013, 02:52:50 PM
Hi there Natalia,

3 wpg is quite a reasonable amount of light. It is effectively a high-tech tank level of light (meaning carefully selected substrate and additional dosing) – high labour and intensive care .

High labour is definately something I don't want to deal with. Not that I'm incapable, I'd much rather enjoy a view than have to constantly fuss over it.

Another thing – wpg itself is a very-very inaccurate and outdated method of measuring the light (as I stated many times when I wrote on the forum of the “old version” of Think Fish).  As I said then, being outdated, it is still the one which can be used – simply because not many aquarists have a possibility to measure PAR! What I am trying to say is that 1 wpg of light in one tank is not the same as 1 wpg of light in another – it is a matter of careful trial and (possibly) correcting errors.

Understood. I was pretty much right not to treat it as "the" standard, just a "guage".

Substrate. I believe, the types can be roughly grouped into 4 categories:
- Dirt with a layer of inert small grade gravel on top
- Inert gravel (should be a very small grade – 1-3mm grains).
- Nutrient rich substrates which do not require a layer on top. (like Eco Complete, Flourite and the likes)
- Nutrient rich layer like Laterite topped with inert substrate.

Thanks, that actually helps a lot.  I have seen mention of the likes of Eco Complete and Flourite that are layered under inert substrate.  Knowing that these types can be used on their own is a bonus.  As I mentioned ealier, I'll have to check locally to see what brands are available.

Dirt is actually now sounding quite attractive as a long-lasting budget base for my low-tech setup, I'll add to that when I answer Aiden (below).

It is a misconception to think that some plants can only get their nutrients from the substrate – ALL of the plants can be “fed” through water column dosing.

Ok, I didn't know that. So now it comes down to a personal choice.  Get a rich substrate and minimal fiddling is required, or use an inert substrate and dose the water column manually.  That's great, at least there are broadly two distinct options available for me to consider.

One word about CO2. CO2 is a very valuable addition – even low tech tanks benefit from it. I have a selection of medium-low to high tech tanks with or without CO2 supplement, so I observed this first hand.

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind going forward.

“Liquid CO2” is an incorrect term. I noticed that many people think that a substance from bottles is the same as dosing CO2. It is not, really. Liquid supplements are CARBON supplements which provide, well,... carbon to the plants. This carbon is not quite in the same form as gas CO2

Okidoki, terminology fixed in head.

The last thing: Dave, I think you have stretched the fish compatibility in your tank a little bit. The odd one out are your Vietmanese Minnows. They are temperate fish and their temperature requirement is lower than that of your other fish. They may seem happy but it is difficult to create safe margin on temperature tolerance with the other fish you have (it is barely 1-2 degrees)

Yep noted. I don't think I can reduce the temp at all, which is 24 degrees. I started to use more than one source for parameters, but as it is not consistant from site to site, I settled on using the Community Creator here at ThinkFish. The article does say they prefer the 18-22 range, but has a 14-24 min-max. Based on that I made a subjective selection of companions.  The WCMM's are 8 months in the tank and do seem to be doing well.  I guess time will tell.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 24, 2013, 02:54:16 PM
All I do with a dirt tank is use a peat free organic potting compost form the local garden centre about 3 to 4 inch deep and then top that with an inch of coarse sand or fine gravel

Having read this with interest I popped over to one of my local retailers.  60 litre bag of peat free is about £7, so very inexpenive indeed.

The tank I have at the mo  was set up 3 years ago dirted, planted and then just left to get on with it, I have never added any liquid ferts, tabs, co2 or liquid carbon to it and all the plants have grown just fine under t8's.

I think you have managed to sell this concept to me. How long do you think it will last before the nutrients get used up?

Possibly then, I would need to buy the additional top layer, unless you think I could use what I have already.  I've added some shots of the sand and gravel I have at the moment.  I have about 20kg of the sand and about 8kg of gravel.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 24, 2013, 02:55:24 PM
Another thing to think about....

It's hard to tell from your fish stock if you have soft, medium or hard water as all your fish seem to do well over a wide range of hardness (so I'll guess hard because you chose that specific tetra).
Anyway, if by chance your water is soft with a low KH (less than 3 or 4) then CO2 injection can cause a pH crash - or at least an unstable pH. Not good for the fish.

Thanks Colin,

That's another point in the 'cons' column for CO2 injection here.

Actually I have very soft to soft water.  Out of the tap it is currently 3, and in tank 4.  My tap water has been all the way down to 1 during June to September last year and has been slowly climbing back to the 3 that I started with back in May.

The low KH was a bit of a worry but the pH has been fine throughout. Tap water pH is usually between 7 and 8, currently at 7.5 whilst in tank is about 8.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ady81 on January 24, 2013, 05:37:14 PM
How long do you think it will last before the nutrients get used up?

The longest I had a dirt tank set up for was 9 years, for the last couple the growth had slowed down but they were still growing. At this point you could always add tabs or liquid ferts if you don't want to strip the tank down and change out the dirt although the last time I did that on a 450 ltr tank it only took a couple of hours.


Possibly then, I would need to buy the additional top layer, unless you think I could use what I have already

You could use either of them for this, if you use the larger gravel you might need it a bit thicker to stop small bits of dirt floating up through it and messing the water.
A good book and one I have on hand is " the simple guide to planted aquariums" by Terry Anne Barber & Rhonda Wilson I got mine for about £3 of amazon. There is a lot of good info in it and is quite easy to understand. If you have any more Q's about anything lights, algae, what plants ect just ask
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 24, 2013, 10:25:07 PM
Thanks Aiden,  you have been a great help. I'm definitely going down this road.  :)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 26, 2013, 10:50:18 PM
Picked up the cabinet today and can finally get the tank started. Attached image is after the cabinet build, and siting in my lounge.  We have dirt too... £6 for 50ltr.  Leak & equipment testing for 24 hours, some root wood boiled for a while to remove tannins currently being investigated by my Amanos in the 64 ltr tank.  I am really looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 27, 2013, 11:00:32 AM
Good lookin' tank. I'll be watching this thred with interest as I'll be going down this 200litre  route at the end of this year.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Helen on January 28, 2013, 04:44:44 PM
I'm really interested to see how you get on Dave with your low tech tank, as it is something I was very interested in, till I 'got going' with my fish tank.

When I first started researching my planted tank (first ever fish tank) I was looking at the low tech, low maintenance option. I was given a copy of Diane Walstead's book and started to read it pretty thoroughly. Although I have a scientific background, it is not a biological sciences one. And I found Diane's book quite heavy going, and it seemed that a lot of scientific understanding was required to get to the point where low maintenance was successful.

So in the end I got EcoComplete substrate, and put a layer of fine pea gravel on top (if I was doing this again, I would dispense with the pea gravel). I have a 240l tank, with two T8 tubes. And that was it for a good six months or so.

But I didn't get off to a very good start. I couldn't get the tank environment healthy, the plants weren't doing well even though they weren't actually dying, and my fish weren't doing terribly well either ( I had a high attrition rate with fish). 

After lots more research into plant health and measuring of my tap water parameters, I came to the conclusion that my lack of success was due to the extremely low levels of nutrients in my tap water. I live at the edge of the Peak District and we have medium to soft water. The nitrate levels are very low (less than 5ppm) and there appears to be very little CO2 in the tap water. I had too many plants in my tank to achieve a reasonable balance of nutrients just with water changes.

Now I dose my tank with CO2, and add a general fertiliser and nitrate salts (? might not be the right term) at water changes. (It still feels strange to add nitrates at water change, as most people change water to reduce the level of nitrates!) You can see how well my plants grow in the gallery section of this forum. In my opinion, this is no more effort than water changes for a non planted fish tank. (Except that I do have to prune the plants every few weeks, but I actually find this therapeutic rather than a chore)

I don't agree with Colin that adding CO2 to soft water makes the pH more unstable. KH is a measure of carbonate hardness and by adding CO2 you are increasing the amount of carbon and oxygen molecules available to increase your carbonates. CO2 itself is acidic and can reduce the pH, but in my tank, it has also made it far more stable. It does however, leave my tank vulnerable to pH fluctuations when the CO2 runs out, so I have to keep a careful eye on that.

You seem to have all the same motivations as I did, for a planted tank, but are going down a totally different route, so I am really interested to see how you get on.

 Good luck.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 28, 2013, 05:18:55 PM

I don't agree with Colin that adding CO2 to soft water makes the pH more unstable. KH is a measure of carbonate hardness and by adding CO2 you are increasing the amount of carbon and oxygen molecules available to increase your carbonates. CO2 itself is acidic and can reduce the pH, but in my tank, it has also made it far more stable. It does however, leave my tank vulnerable to pH fluctuations when the CO2 runs out, so I have to keep a careful eye on that.


When CO2 dissolves in water it forms carbonic acid, which is why rain water is slightly acid - the atmospheric CO2 dissolves in it. If you have a low KH (i.e. your water is not well buffered) then when you add CO2 the pH of your tank will decrease.

CO2 + H2O => H2CO3 => H+ + HCO3-

The H+ ion acidifies the water.

However; if you have more HCO3- ions then H+ ions then this is a measure of your KH (Carbonate Hardness) and these excess HCO3- ions will 'mop-up' the H+ ions so keeping your pH stable. This is buffering.

So adding CO2 increases the carbonates and increases the acidity, so it's excess carbonates that are required for buffering. These need to be gained from elsewhere, either your tapwater or by adding a buffering chemical.

Helen and I are possible saying the same thing from different sides. Basically, if your water is not well buffered you're liable to pH fluctuations and adding CO2 in 'random' ammounts without correct monitoring will cause these fluctuations to occur. KH is a measure of this buffering capacity.

This article in PracticalFishKeeping by George Farmer goes in to CO2 addition and monitoring in some detail:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5264 (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5264)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 28, 2013, 07:54:27 PM
I'll be watching this thred with interest as I'll be going down this 200litre  route at the end of this year.
I'm really interested to see how you get on Dave with your low tech tank, as it is something I was very interested in, till I 'got going' with my fish tank.

Happy to have sparked a bit of interest, and equally grateful to Aiden for his input which has inspired me to go for this.

The tank is fully hooked up to a new surge protected power supply, 24 hour segment timer for the lights and the almost silent external canister filter.  Dropped in 10 litres of water to see how level my final location is, and it isn't good.

The floor is much lower on the left side and is going to take a 0.5" block under the left side of the cabinet to level it out.  I was all set to do that tonight by grabbing my car-jack to lift the cabinet so I can get some blocks cut and positioned.  Unfortunately my jack doesn't go low enough so I can't get it under the 3" gap under the cabinet.  I'll have to source another jack to get that sorted. Bit of a pain, but I'm not really surprised with my Jerry-built 1970's suburban shoe-box.  ;D

I have 2 hand sized pieces of Mangrove root installed in my 64 ltr, and a bigger piece of Bogwood soaking in a bucket. That should be all I'll need in the wood department.

I'm still going through the list of plants at Tropica to decide what I'm going to aim for, and I have finished the basic layout idea for the tank now.  I'll pop a scan of the layout in the thread once I've got all the plants arranged.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 28, 2013, 08:00:29 PM

The floor is much lower on the left side and is going to take a 0.5" block under the left side of the cabinet to level it out.  I was all set to do that tonight by grabbing my car-jack to lift the cabinet so I can get some blocks cut and positioned.  Unfortunately my jack doesn't go low enough so I can't get it under the 3" gap under the cabinet.  I'll have to source another jack to get that sorted. Bit of a pain, but I'm not really surprised with my Jerry-built 1970's suburban shoe-box.  ;D


Can you lever it up - say a stout piece of wood and a brick as a pivot type thing?
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 28, 2013, 08:44:08 PM
Yay!  Got it Colin.  Managed to find an old 5 foot long wooden curtain rail in my utility room (now I know why I don't throw anything out).  Half Inch thick chipboard shelf remnant now inserted under the left side of the cabinet.  Almost millimeter perfect!

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 28, 2013, 08:58:14 PM
Good news indeed. My tank was down at the front so I had to do similar things with Heath-Robinson leverage and some cut up squares of old carpet under the cabinet feet.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Helen on January 29, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
It is helpful to see the chemistry behind the CO2 theory. I'm pretty sure I've read the George Farmer article before, but understood it better after reading your explanation, Colin.

I'm trying to get my head round the different water parameters in my tank, and how they all relate. I use a 4KH solution in my CO2 drop checker, and keep the CO2 level just below 30ppm (a light but not lime green). My tank water is about neutral (7.0-7.4, I really struggle to pinpoint exactly which colour). My KH comes out as medium according to the scale (though it is in ppm, and I never manage to get it right when converting to degrees), but the GH comes out pretty low. I guess this makes sense, that most of the acidifying components in my tank water are carbonates, as I know I have very low nitrate levels in my tank and since I've been dosing calcium and (in much smaller quantities, magnesium) nitrates the plants and the fish have all done much better.

Does this agree with your explanation, Colin? I've tried to get my head around the science (but organic chemistry has never been 'my' subject) and ended up going for the trial and error method. It would be nice to know whether my interpretation of 'trial and error' actually agrees with the scientific theory.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Dave.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 29, 2013, 03:28:53 PM
mmmmm.... if you're adding CO2 then you'll end up with H+ ions and HCO3- ions. The H+ ions will bring your pH down and also react with the General Hardness molecules to 'neutralise' them so reducing your water hardness. The HCO3- ions will increase your Carbonate Hardness, which will also react with the H+ ions to stop the pH coming down.

So the tank water chemistry must depend on the relative ammounts of KH and GH and pH that are in your tap water compared with the ammount of CO2 that you're adding. This will change depending on the quantity of water you change each week. I don't know enough to say what every value 'should' be, but if the tank is stable and the fish and plants are 'happy' then it ought to be fine. (That's my way of thinking about it, anyway. :) )

To convert ppm to oHardness then divide ppm by 17.9

I've seen many different tables of what value GH constitutes very soft, soft, medium, hard, very hard etc. What do you use, Helen? (or anybody else for that matter.)

(Sorry Dave!  :-[)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 29, 2013, 05:38:04 PM
Sorry for hijacking your thread Dave.
(Sorry Dave!  :-[)

No bother, I can handle a bit of thread-jacking.  :P

I've seen many different tables of what value GH constitutes very soft, soft, medium, hard, very hard etc. What do you use, Helen? (or anybody else for that matter.)

I tend to use a scale derived (in a very unscientific way) from the API GH & KH Conversion Chart:

# of drops|odKH|ppm GH/KH|Scale
1|1|17.9|V.Soft
2|2|35.8|V.Soft
3|3|53.7|Soft
4|4|71.6|Soft
5|5|89.5|Soft
6|6|107.4|Medium
7|7|125.3|Medium
8|8|143.2|Hard
9|9|161.1|Hard
10|10|179|Hard
11|11|196.9|V.Hard
12|12|214.8|V.Hard
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 29, 2013, 06:14:10 PM
Thanks Dave, that's very different to mine:

0-4;      very soft
4-8;      soft
8-12;    medium
12-16;  hard
16+;     very hard


EDIT: I've just found this in a reasonably scholarly article:

0 - 4 dGH            0 - 70 ppm     very soft
4 - 8 dGH          70 - 140 ppm   soft
8 - 12 dGH      140 - 210 ppm   medium hard
12 - 18 dGH    210 - 320 ppm   fairly hard
18 - 30 dGH    320 - 530 ppm   hard
over 30 dGH     over 530 ppm   very hard

EDITED EDIT: And now this.....

0-3        Soft
3-6        Fairly Soft
6-12      Slightly Hard
12-18    Moderately Hard
18-30    Hard
30+       Very Hard


 :-\  :-\  :-\
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 29, 2013, 10:37:04 PM
I managed to find the chart from my water supplier [PDF Link (http://www.unitedutilities.com/documents/WaterhardnessFactSheet.pdf)], yep... it's different again.

German Degrees
< 4.2 - Very Soft
4-7 - Soft
7-14 - Moderately Hard
14-21 - Hard
> 21 - Very Hard

Too many measurements, not enough standards.  ::)

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on January 29, 2013, 10:41:17 PM
Almost finished creating my shortlist of plants now.  Workday is getting in the way of enjoying myself.  >:(

Anyway, having got the tank leveled out, the dirt is now installed, to about 3" in depth, lightly muddy.  I'll drop my top layer of sand on there in a couple of days.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Natalia on January 29, 2013, 11:17:45 PM
Hi all,
I thought I had to “throw” something into your discussions. I noticed that there is one thing which  is not mentioned/taken into the consideration. That is the CO2 uptake by plants. Plants use carbon as their major “building and growth” source. In fact, aquatic plants composition is mostly of carbon – something like 40% (or 60%? – I don’t quite remember) of aquatic plant tissue is pure carbon. So, all calculations on acidity, KH and PH values in a heavily planted tank HAVE to take this fact into consideration. A heavily planted tank with initial (tap water) KH of 3 or 4, dosed with of CO2 will end up most likely with the higher KH than the tap water. One has to dose AMPLE amounts of CO2 into a heavily planted tank to see any effects of the water becoming more acidic.
Helen – don’t worry about organic chemistry not being your subject. This all is a common sense, really: the reason we dose CO2 into our tanks is not to increase acidity or alter water parameters in any way. The reason CO2 is being used in planted tanks is to provide the plants with their main “food source” – that’s it. The “food” for plants is there to be “eaten” and once this happened, the water parameters should be the same as tap water... Equally, the dry salts (EI derived) dosing is there to provide food for the plants – these also will be “eaten” (or should be eaten) by them. So, there is no need to make things way too complicated.
 EI method has a base statement of “unlimited nutrients supply” which means that plants have no lack of any single nutrient at any given time. CO2 is the MOST important part of it. So, to all: stop worrying about acidifying effect of the CO2 dosing if you have at least moderately planted tanks! Your plants will “eat” all this CO2 (and then ask for some more): no PH crashes, no acidifying – simple as that....
P.S. Dave, your tank looks good!
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on January 30, 2013, 11:46:41 AM
From Wikipedia - just to muddy the water even more!


Hard/soft classification
Because it is the precise mixture of minerals dissolved in the water, together with the water's pH and temperature, that determines the behavior of the hardness, a single-number scale does not adequately describe hardness. However, the United States Geological Survey uses the following classification into hard and soft water,[18]

Classification   hardness in ppm     hardness in dGH/°dH
Soft                            0–60                             0.3-3.00
Moderately hard      61–120                           3.72-6.75
Hard                       121–180                          6.78–10.08
Very hard                  ≥ 181                               ≥ 10.14
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 03, 2013, 05:48:00 PM
Next step now completed, installed sand and created gravel areas and the 'focal point'.  ;D

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Helen on February 03, 2013, 06:15:02 PM
The start of the layout is looking good. I can't wait to see it progress.  ;)

Just one thing, that I'm not sure if it would be nit picking (my apologies if it is). Your heater appears to be tucked in the rear left hand corner. I think it needs to be where the water can flow around it well, to avoid temperature gradients in the tank. You could find that the water gets really warm in the back corner and appears too cool at your thermometer.

By the way, when you did your leak tests for your tank, did you fill it right up and have the heater running? What I mean is, have you tested it, without the substrate etc as it will be when set up - at running temperature and volume? I ask, because I tested my new tank as instructed, (I think half or two thirds full) and without the heater. I then planted and filled it up and turned the heater on. And a couple days later, it cracked. The conclusion was that it was a manufacturing defect (I was unlucky enough to get the tank with a fault in the glass), but I can't help wondering if I'd tested the tank with the heater and completely full, that I would have saved myself A LOT of stress. Getting all the plants and substrate out while the best part of 170l of water were trying to escape across my lounge wasn't much fun. The upside to it was that I had no snails till I bought new plants about 6 months later, as it meant all my plants has been thoroughly washed. (They spent several weeks 'planted' in a bucket on the window sill, while I kept my filter cycling in a black bin that I had spare and was able to siphon some of the escapee water into)

I hope I haven't scared you, I would just rather save you the stress (although it is something that happens so rarely).
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 03, 2013, 06:35:10 PM
Hi Helen,

No you haven't scared me, quite the opposite in fact, I'm pleased to get sanity checks thrown in (or should that be insanity checks).  ;D

The equipment and leak test was done over a weekend; tank was full, heater was on, and I was also testing my new filter too.  No leaks or cracks, so everything is going ahead as planned.

Agreed on the placement of the heater, it may very well need moving, or at the very least placing at a diagonal angle.  The inlet is on the same corner, with the nozzle facing to the right, along the back of the tank.  I'll very likely change the direction of the nozzle (I took off the spray bar as I didn't like the effect), once the tank is running, probably aiming it towards the front right corner.

I have two thermometers, one is the stick-on variety as supplied by the manufacturer which is on the front left, and a spare internal liquid thermometer is out on the right front.  During the equipment test, the water temperature was the same on both sides after 24 hours, but I'm equally conscious that the currents will change quite a bit once plants and decor are in there.

I'll be keeping a watch on both readings, just in case a problem arises, and as I'm not planning on putting anything in except plants for the first 4 weeks, I'll have plenty of time to make any finer adjustments.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 05, 2013, 04:23:37 PM
Next phase is now complete; plant list.  8)

I'm on leave from work from this Thursday for a week, so am planning a trip to what looks like a very good plant stockist in Wrexham (about an hour drive each way for me).  It looks like they stock plants from Tropica, and looks like the biggest stockist with a shop within a reasonable distance (http://www.distance-calculator.co.uk/towns-within-a-radius-of.php?t=Wrexham&c=Great%20Britain) from me.  Their online shop is pretty nice too.

Here's the key to the attached plan.

1: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
2: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
3: Echinodorus ‘Red Special’
4: Anubias barteri var. angustifolia
5: Cryptocoryne x willisii
6: Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii'
7: Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii'
8: Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan'
9: Echinodorus quadricostatus
10: Echinodorus quadricostatus
11: Anubias barteri var. angustifolia
12: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green'
13: Staurogyne repens
14: Staurogyne repens
15: Eleocharis parvula
16: Eleocharis parvula
17: Eleocharis parvula
18: Staurogyne repens
19: Staurogyne repens
20: Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Tropica'

A: Mango Root (Small, hand sized)
B: Mango Root (Small, hand sized)
C: Bogwood (Double hand sized, nice shape not too extravagant)

Hopefully I've chosen well enough, what do you plant experts think to the choices?

Forgot to mention... the arrow in the bottom right on the plan is my normal viewing angle from my favorite TV chair.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on February 05, 2013, 04:36:15 PM
Wow - that's organised of you. Very impressive.

My thoughts would be....

....should some of the bogwood be hidden amongst the plants a bit? Or perhaps some rockery amongst the plants?

....are you going to have any Anubias or Java Fern on your bogwood, I've got Java Fern on mine and I think it looks good (but I would.)

....might it end up a bit symmetrical, a bit too formal? Or perhaps you're aiming that way.

Whatever, just remember that..... "It didn't happen if there're no pictures" ;). A complete photo diary is required please. ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 05, 2013, 07:25:52 PM
Hi Colin,  thanks for the input.

My intent, is to make the two small Mango root pieces into smaller features in the two foreground locations to help break up the wide open space.  The larger Bogwood piece, which is being situated on a focal point I'm hoping to make stand out as the main tank feature, of course.

All three pieces do require addition of plants/moss, but I'm undecided as yet which to go for.  I like the idea of Java Moss on the Mango root, and I think that will work very well.  The Bogwood needs something different, a larger plant, possibly broad leaved, with a different colour than the normal greens.  Another small 'carpeting' style plant would also be nice on the lower parts. For that, I have purposefully placed  the Eleocharis parvula close by (15, 16 & 17) to, I hope, encourage it to grow around the base.  Do you think it might need something else on the Bogwood directly?

Symmetry I'm trying to avoid, though the left side 'bed' does seem rather regimented.  I'm hoping it won't look like that once the plants are in and growing.

Suggestions are very much appreciated, this is the first planted tank I'm attempting, so I'm keen to hear what others think.

I nabbed the wood from my FishBox, much to the consternation of the Amano's who seem to be permanently feeding off them.  Attached some wood placement pics for a bit of scale.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 05, 2013, 07:53:42 PM
Whatever, just remember that..... "It didn't happen if there're no pictures" ;). A complete photo diary is required please. ;D

Absolutely. I'll be taking pics during the build and at weekly intervals after that to see how much things progress.  :D

The lighting is a bit brighter than my FishBox, so I'm hoping that my big digital camera will cope better with fish photography too.  That's the next project... a whole other realm to discover.  ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on February 06, 2013, 07:28:49 AM
It's easier to imagine with the pictures - but I still can't imagine the height and spread of mature plants. But that's half the fun, watching it change and mature. They're great pieces of wood and the bogwood definitely calls out for some attached plants. I only know of Anubias and Java Fern as plants that will attach themselves to wood and they're both green.

What background is that? It looks really 3D but the suction pads give it away. It's very impressive.

I'm going to really enjoy watching this thread - thanks.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 06, 2013, 07:46:20 PM
Funny you should mention 3d background Colin, I was going to go down that route when I first decided on a bigger tank.  However, for whatever reason I decided not to bother and located the picture from a small display at my local Maidenhead Aquatics.  The picture is a the usual glossy double-sided affair, but the big rocks in the picture was similar to a 3d background I had been looking at. The brand is "SuperFish Deco Poster".

I'm going to have another browse through the plant catalogue tonight and see what I can spot for the Bog wood.  If I can't decide I'll ask the stockist based on my tank parameters and see what they come up with.  I'm on holiday now, so as long as the shop in Wrexham have everything in, I'm hoping to go down on Friday.  My credit card is already cowering in expectation of the £150 (ish) purchase.  ::)

Edit: Make that £183. Going for extra Java Moss for the bigger Bog wood along with attaching a Anubias barteri var. coffeefolia, which looks nicely broad leaved, and apparently can flower underwater too.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Helen on February 07, 2013, 10:35:48 AM
I was going to suggest lace java fern for your bogwood. It is still green, but a different texture to any of the other plants I've seen. I have taken a pic of the larger specimen I have, but it doesn't actually show you anything. (It is the bushy plant on the left in my gallery photo)  The scientific name is Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'. It might actually be a Tropica brand!

If you are interested in it, I can post you some (as long as someone gives me instructions on how to successfully post aquatic plants). My plants are doing so well, that I am having to heavily prune them. The plants closest to the water surface seem to be the most successful. Till now I've only taken off leaves, but I have loads of rhizomes that are now floating as they have run out of wood/ stone to fix to.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Mervyn on February 07, 2013, 10:44:27 AM
Hi Helen,
Is that water wisteria in the foreground?? if it is how have you got it bushy? I have read conflicting reports on how to prune it. I have just cut the top from mine, and replanted the top and left the bottom in place, is this right?

Oops did not mean to jump into someone else's thread...Apologies :-[
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Helen on February 07, 2013, 11:05:19 AM
I don't have any water wysteria. The fluffy plant reflected in the water surface at the top is limnophilia sessiflora, the bushy plant is the lace java fern. It is the 'frills' on the ends of the leaves that make it look really bushy, and I think give it its unique texture.

And there is a single leaf of cryptocorne crispatula horizontally along the bottom of the photo.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 07, 2013, 11:06:29 AM
I was going to suggest lace java fern for your bogwood. ...  The scientific name is Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'. It might actually be a Tropica brand!

Hi Helen, looks nice and definitely a Tropica [article (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plant-articles/microsorum.aspx)].  Thanks for the offer, but I reckon I'm going to settle on what I've ordered for now.  I'll certainly keep you mind if I need something extra on the bog wood though, it's one of the easy plants that according to Tropica do well in low-light setups.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Helen on February 07, 2013, 11:12:52 AM
I can vouch for it doing well in low-light setups. With two t8 lights, my tank is definitely a low-light set up. I bought two plants of the lace fern when I planted up my tank - a couple years ago now. Each had maybe a dozen leaves each, on the rhizomes. Now I have just run out of space for them; I would say they are 10 times the size they were when I bought them, and that is with pretty regular pruning. I think plant growth is usually quantified by how long it takes to double in size? For this plant, I would say it was a matter of weeks in my tank.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 07, 2013, 01:21:56 PM
Been in touch with the plant stockist and unfortunately they don't have everything available.  Plants will now be delivered on 14th Feb, though I may still have a trip down to see their store.  How will I cope waiting for a whole week.  ???
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Helen on February 08, 2013, 04:46:15 PM
I know that feeling! But it's not aquatic plants I'm waiting for!  ;)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 15, 2013, 01:21:32 PM
Plants (or at least most of them) arrived yesterday and I started planting last night.

I still have 2 Echinodorus quadricostatus to put in once they arrive next Thursday, and the plant for attaching to the larger Bog Wood piece, Anubias barteri var. coffeefolia, is also in that delivery.

It took a lot longer to plant and fill the tank than I had anticipated, probably as I've never done it before, but I think it went pretty well. Started at 8pm and didn't get finished and cleaned up until 1:30am. So, today at work I am knackered to say the least.  ;D

Tonight I'll be attaching the Java Moss to the root wood and dropping them into thier right places.

Lots and lots of pictures taken during the process, which I will be compiling for posting on Saturday.

Very happy so far, despite the the store not filling the order in one hit.  8)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 12:37:50 AM
Planting ... 1 of 7
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 12:39:08 AM
Planting... 2 of 7
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 12:40:28 AM
Planting... 3 of 7
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 12:41:44 AM
Planting... 4 of 7
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 12:42:49 AM
Planting... 5 of 7
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 12:45:26 AM
Planting... 6 of 7
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 12:48:31 AM
Planting... 7 of 7
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on February 17, 2013, 09:32:45 AM
That looks good so far. Quality plants! Thanks for taking the trouble to post - I'm looking forward to watching your tank mature.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 17, 2013, 08:54:31 PM
Thanks Colin. I think it's going to end up looking pretty nice once it gets going, and pretty chuffed with my efforts.

The melting has already begun on all of the broader leaf plants, which I expected of course.  The Staurogyne repens and Eleocharis parvula have perked up brilliantly over the last 2 days with the parvula visibly longer already.  Java Moss has started to turn its strands towards the light too.

I did a Phosphate (PO43-) test yesterday, to discover my tap water contains 5ppm, one step from from the maximum colour chart reading at 10ppm.  Not sure whether I need to worry about that being quite so high as I know the plants will use it too.

Anyway, looking forward to getting the last of the plants this coming Thursday.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 25, 2013, 12:49:05 AM
End of week #1.

There is a distinct amount less to see this week in the plant department as all but one of the Crypts has melted completely.  Now I wait for their coming back (I hope)  :-\

Everything else seems to be hanging in there ok.

I have also been observing the appearance of uninvited guests, in the form of about 10 very small snails.  These chaps have grown very quickly from the 1mm almost translucent blobs I spotted earlier in the week to now 5mm.  I've attached a snap of one feeding on some Java Moss,  From the shell colouration it looks like a common Pond Snail.  I don't mind them being there, as long as they don't become destructive.

Still no sign of the missing plants from my mail order, they were apparently sent via standard post on Thursday.  Not very happy about that one bit, especially as they will have had added days in transit from the Tropica source to their shop in Wrexham.  I'll be very surprised if they survive, if they arrive at all. Telephone conduct of this shop has a great deal to be desired; obnoxious actually.  I won't be using them ever again.

I have also been keeping a watch on water parameters and it looks like I've kick-started a slow silent cycle.

DateKHpHPhosphateAmmoniaNitrIteNitrAte
Sat 16 Feb27.250.2505
Tue 19 Feb37.540.2505
Thu 21 Feb37.540.250.15
Sun 24 Feb37.540.250.255

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on February 25, 2013, 07:29:23 AM
I get my plants from these guys..... http://www.plantsalive.co.uk/index.php (http://www.plantsalive.co.uk/index.php) ....they don't ship Tropica plants but they've always been top quality, very large and there always seem to be more than I asked for. Their communication is great and no mistakes have been made.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on February 26, 2013, 09:35:03 AM
Thanks Colin, I've bookmarked the site for future reference.

The remaining items from my plant order arrived whilst I was out at work on Monday.  Thankfully my neighbor took in the parcel for me which I was handed when I got back home.  Saved me another day delay and a trip to the central sorting office in town.

So, this is the final bit of planting/attachments.  Now... grow, grow, grow  ;D

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 03, 2013, 07:16:43 PM
End of Week #2

Snails seem to be smaller in number as I've only managed to count 6 at once this week. I'm happy about that TBH.  One of them is about 8mm in length (head to back of shell), the others in varying sizes up to about 4 or 5 mm.

Water parameters for this week indicate that the silent cycle is over, as all Ammonia and NitrIte have been consumed.  After the readings on Tuesday showed a higher NitrAte level I did a 50ltr water change (about 28%).  This was the first water change since starting the tank.  Both Thursday and Sunday readings show no further increases in the NitrAte.  My regular weekly 50ltr water change begins tonight.

DateKHpHPhosphateAmmoniaNitrIteNitrAte
Tue 26 Feb47.5400.2520
Thu 28 Feb47.550010
Sun 03 Mar47.540010

The melted Crypts have yet to make an appearance again, but the other plants do appear to be settling in nicely, and all are showing signs of increased or new growth.

To combat the build-up of the thin oily scum that tends to develop quickly, I added an airpump and a double tube feed to small airstones at both rear corners.  I incorporated adjustable flow valves to each, allowing the rate to be evened out and reduced to a low level. (Picture of the mount attached).
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on March 04, 2013, 07:27:04 AM
(http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=161.0;attach=441;image)

Now that's a great bit of air-pump engineering.... I love it!!
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 04, 2013, 10:02:28 PM
 ;D Neat huh!  Didn't want to leave all those joined tubes just laying around the bottom of the cabinet.

Speaking of things being left laying around... snails have been getting busy.  Found half a dozen egg sacks stuck to the glass when I got home from work tonight.  Me thinks I'll have to start doing some culling before things get silly.  ::)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 10, 2013, 10:33:23 PM
End of Week #3

Snail population has not exploded, so my scraping off of egg sacks when I spy them seems to be working ok.

Finally one of the melted Crypts, a Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green' [link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=109)], has come back from the dead and 3 small leaves are just above the level of the gravel.  This one is in the extreme left-front position in my layout.  The other Crypts are still dead ducks at the moment.  :'( I'm going to give them another week to make some sort of appearance before deciding whether to plant something else in those spots.  Shame really, I do hope they bounce back.

I trimmed down the Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan' [link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=041B)] by about half on Wednesday, as the upper leaves seemed to be failing and slowly showing signs of melt.  My hope was to promote new growth from the bottom to help create a larger bush as the specimen is a bit slim.  This seems to have done the trick and there are a good half a dozen new growths coming up from the base now.  ;D

The Echinodorus ‘Red Special’ [link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=073J)] was also relieved of 2 dying leaves on Wednesday, and I have to say this bugger is a very quick grower.  It has already shot up two more leaves, with more on the way.  This will be a really nice plant when it gets filled out properly.  Doing really well.  8)

Everything else is looking just fine at the moment, including the water condition.

DateKHpHPhosphateAmmoniaNitrIteNitrAte
Tue 05 Mar57.55007.5
Thu 07 Mar57.54007.5
Sun 10 Mar57.54007.5

Tonight I had to clean the glass of some Green Spot Algae, a tougher growth to get rid of than expected. Also vacuumed the surface of the substrate to suck up quite a bit of Brown Hair Algae.  Overall the algae problems are nowhere near as severe as I was expecting, so bonus for me.

Happy plant-keeper here.  ;D

This weeks pics attached.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 17, 2013, 09:39:00 PM
End of Week #4

My snail population has started to grow, as I've now counted 15.  Currently they are helping to clear algae from leaves, and leaving lots of poo which I have to bush off (pic attached).

Brown hair algae appears to be more than happy in the tank, though my maintenance is taking out most of the weekly growth.  Big one appeared on the Java Moss, attached a snap of that before it got vacuumed off tonight.

My Bogwood piece has had some white growths appear, you can see that in my other thread [Odd growth on Bogwood (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,231.0.html)].

I'm also seeing a steady increase of very small white worm like critters, which I assume are Planaria (flatworm).

There has been no sign of the missing Crypts, so I'm now going to source some additional plants to fill the gaps.

The one recovered Crypt is still growing, but very slowly.

Water is taking on a slightly murky hue, and water change tonight (50ltr) showed it to be a bit on the green side. Visual quality has not improved after the water change, so I may have to do a big one next weekend.

Water parameters are much the same as last week, though there has been an apparent increase in the NitrAte.  I have not seen any Ammonia or NitrIte so I don't know where that has come from.

DateKHpHPhosphateAmmoniaNitrIteNitrAte
Tue 12 Mar47.55005
Thu 14 Mar47.54005
Sun 17 Mar47.54007.5

Pics attached.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on March 18, 2013, 07:24:06 AM
Wow - those snails are messy!

I don't know if you've seen this (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm) article about algae? Definitely worth bookmarking.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 18, 2013, 10:34:22 AM
Ooo, good page, thanks Colin.

** edit **
Spotted a female Cyclops Copepod [info (http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/wimsmall/crust.html)], with eggs.  Tiny little thing darting over the glass, looks like a little space rocket.  Snails, Planaria, Algae and now Copepods... what next?
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 20, 2013, 11:47:06 PM
Algae control.

As of Sunday (17th) I stopped adding JBL Ferropol daily dose and changed lighting regime to include a siesta period:-

On: 12pm to 4pm
Siesta: 4pm to 6pm
On: 6pm to 12am
Off: 12am to 12pm

The fast growing Brown hair algae is very much diminished in growth as of today.  Looks like the regime change is improving things as planned.

I ran a test of the cycling capabilities too, and am massively impressed with the results.

Cycle Test (dose: 5mL Ammonium Hydroxide @ 9.5%)
DateKHpHPhosphateAmmoniaNitrIteNitrAte
Sun 17 Mar (post dose)---20-
Mon 18 Mar---1.507.5
Tue 19 Mar47.540.5230
Wed 20 Mar---0030 (was expecting higher)

Without me doing anything special, my bacterial colonies have shifted a huge amount of waste in 3 days, far more than my entire current stock could produce in a whole week.

Ok, so the water parameters are fine, but visually it looks sick.  Completed a 50% water change tonight... 9 buckets... takes a while... but it has improved a great deal.

If the algae has continued to be controlled, and the water quality is stable, I'll be doing another 50% water change on Saturday and will be moving my community over from the 64ltr tank.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on March 21, 2013, 07:44:12 AM
Sounds like you're breeding live food for your fish - very thoughtful of you. ;)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 21, 2013, 10:05:55 PM
 ;D I'm going to put a sign on the tank "Free Buffet, All You Can Eat, Bring A Fishy Friend".

The water is still getting more murky, so I've started a blackout until Saturday.  See if that helps me along a bit more.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 25, 2013, 12:31:02 AM
End Of Week #5

The blackout I imposed from Wednesday night through Saturday night has done an amazing job of killing algae from plant leaves, and the water cleared up quite a bit too. Brown hair algae is definitely in retreat as a result, and the snails have been very happily chomping their way through the left overs.  Due to the intervention this week, have postponed the move of my existing stock until next weekend.

Friday did not see me do a water change, despite all of the Ammonia and NitrIte being consumed.  I didn't want to have to open up the tank during the blackout to do a water change, so redosed the Ammonia to leave it until the planned Saturday opening.

Saturday's high NitrAte decided me to run a big 75% water change, despite there being NitrItes still left to cycle.  The result was worth the effort though, tank looks far better for it.  I did not dose Ammonia again after Saturday water change, but left it until Sunday night instead.

DateKHpHPhosphateAmmoniaNitrIteNitrAte
Wed 20 Mar (post dose)---205
Thu 21 Mar37.550.5230
Fri 22 Mar---0040
Fri 22 Mar (post dose)---2--
Sat 23 Mar---05100
Sun 24 Mar37.55005
Sun 24 Mar (post dose)---2--

I have added some small terracotta pots to the sand in the central foreground as I was getting bored looking at all that blank space, and am also considering moving the left hand Mango Root piece to the left back corner (where the melted crypts should be growing), as it is obscuring the view of the plants.

Pics attached.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on March 25, 2013, 07:45:40 AM
Looks good and I'm glad the black-out worked.

What's that tall, lightish-green plant in the first photo at the back, middle-right, behind the third plant-pot from the left, please? I like it and couldn't work it out from your planting diagram.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on March 25, 2013, 09:53:32 AM
What's that tall, lightish-green plant in the first photo at the back, middle-right, behind the third plant-pot from the left, please? I like it and couldn't work it out from your planting diagram.

That's the Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan' [link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=041B)].  Grows pretty quick and makes a nice contrast in the greens as it is so light.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on March 25, 2013, 10:48:40 AM
Thanks, Dave. I wonder if I can keep that alive for any length of time?  ;D

My Vallis torta has just shed loads of leaves and a few have floated to the surface showing they've lost their roots.  :( *sigh* Ho-hum.... it looks like another Crypt will have to go in that spot. But, hey, I like crypts so it's OK.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: SteveS on March 25, 2013, 11:42:18 AM
tropica (http://www.emagcloud.com/djursgruppen/Tropica_UK_ny/index.html#/38/) do a nifty little web based catalogue that you can waft through.  Alternatively, you can download a pdf based version.  The first half is a number of articles about aquaria, but the second half is a list of plants with photos and some description all colour-coded based on ease of care.  If you are looking for some easy plants to try, it is a great place to get some ideas.

But it's worth a look anyway as it's a really nice little document.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 01, 2013, 12:49:11 AM
End of Week #6

@ColinB, I've had to trim runner for the Echinodorus quadricostatus (link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=068)) 3 times since I planted it on Feb 26th.  It seems to be a very adept grower.

Most of the algae seems to be under control now, especially the brown hair algae which is not growing at all now.  I haven't seen any Green Spot algae on the glass, and no further instances of green algae on the sand has appeared either.  My only remaining issue is the green algae in the water column which is making everything look dirty (of course).

The week has gone well, and as we have hit the Eater weekend, my plans changed just a little. On Friday I transferred all my stock of 15 fish and 9 shrimp from my 64 litre tank.  So far everything seems to have gone well, with WCMM's shoaling quite happily together, the Glowlight Tetra's being as chilled out and together as usual, and the Glowlight Danio males chasing each other around the tank with even more gusto than before.

The large number of hiding spots seem to favor the Shrimp, as I have only seen 4 or 5 at a time, with the rest keeping away from the open areas of the tank.  I was worried that they would start chomping on plants right away, but everything seems to be going just fine at the moment.

DateKHpHPhosphateAmmoniaNitrIteNitrAte
Mon 25 Mar---00.2530
Tue 26 Mar37.55007.5
Tue 26 Mar (post dose)---20< 5
Wed 27 Mar---00.2530
Thu 28 Mar27.57.50030
Fri 29 Mar-----7.5
Sat 30 Mar------
Sun 31 Mar47.57.50010

NitrAte has been all over the place as I finished an API batch and started a new one on Tuesday.  The readings look very odd and I don't trust them at all.  It is Saturday before I can buy a JBL kit to run a comparison.  Just my luck that the new API kit and the JBL read the same.  Very weird, but I have to trust the readings.

Phosphate is rising, though there is already an abundance in the tap water.  Probably means the pad in the filter is full, which is replaced on Sunday.

With the stock emptied from the 64 litre, I begin to use this as an isolation tank.  On Saturday I got a single female Glowlight Danio to increase the shoal to 6, and give another girl to the squabbling boys.  In addition, I have 6 Cherry Barbs (2m, 4f)... and I love 'em already.  3 weeks in isolation and then we swap out for the next lot.

Oh, forgot to mention.  I move the left hand Mango root piece from the front to the back of the tank.  This gives good visibility on the gravel patch on the left.  Not sure if this is going to stay at the back, but we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on April 01, 2013, 09:48:40 AM
End of Week #6

@ColinB, I've had to trim runner for the Echinodorus quadricostatus (link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=068)) 3 times since I planted it on Feb 26th.  It seems to be a very adept grower.

  In addition, I have 6 Cherry Barbs (2m, 3f)... and I love 'em already. 

Thanks Dave.... I might try an Echinodorus quad, but you do seem to have more light in your tank than me. Though it's impossible to tell from piccies. I have 1 x 11Watt bulb on a flexi-stem over the glass evaporation covers. It looks like you have 2 x long tubes in there and that'll make a big difference I would think.

p.s. 2+3=5  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 01, 2013, 11:27:46 AM
@ColinB, I've had to trim runner for the Echinodorus quadricostatus (link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=068)) 3 times since I planted it on Feb 26th.  It seems to be a very adept grower.

Thanks Dave.... I might try an Echinodorus quad, but you do seem to have more light in your tank than me. Though it's impossible to tell from piccies. I have 1 x 11Watt bulb on a flexi-stem over the glass evaporation covers. It looks like you have 2 x long tubes in there and that'll make a big difference I would think.

Ahh right.  I have 2x30watt T8's in here.

In addition, I have 6 Cherry Barbs (2m, 3f)... and I love 'em already. 
p.s. 2+3=5  ;D ;D

 :o  There's my brain to finger communication breaking down again. That beer was more effective than I thought.  Fixed.  ;D

**edit**
I lost a Glowlight Tetra female this morning, she was floating upside down at the surface.  No sign of any infections, belly has been partially eaten. The other 4 are perfectly ok, no sign of any problems. :-(
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: SteveS on April 01, 2013, 02:54:23 PM
Thanks Dave.... I might try an Echinodorus quad, but you do seem to have more light in your tank than me. Though it's impossible to tell from piccies. I have 1 x 11Watt bulb on a flexi-stem over the glass evaporation covers. It looks like you have 2 x long tubes in there and that'll make a big difference I would think.

Remember that your tank is much smaller than Tigz's.  This also makes a difference.  As does the type of light.  I think that yours is an LED light isn't it?  If it is LED then any comparisons of wattage are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on April 02, 2013, 07:41:36 AM

Ahh right.  I have 2x30watt T8's in here.

**edit**
I lost a Glowlight Tetra female this morning, she was floating upside down at the surface.  No sign of any infections, belly has been partially eaten. The other 4 are perfectly ok, no sign of any problems. :-(

Sorry about your Tetra.

My 11Watt light is a Compact Flourescent (link (http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/860-865-Daylight_3/Biax-S-2-Pin-11-Watt-865-GE)) at 6500K into a 55Litre 40cm deep tank, so there's a lot less light than your 60W into 180litres. The only clump of Vallis torta that has not died yet is at the side of the tank near the window, so I suspect it's all to do with light levels. In that size tank (40cm cube) then Crypts and Java Fern look fine. I think I'll get some more bog-wood and attach Ferns and place it vertically in the tank to give me height.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 02, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
Most of the algae seems to be under control now, especially the brown hair algae which is not growing at all now.  I haven't seen any Green Spot algae on the glass, and no further instances of green algae on the sand has appeared either.  My only remaining issue is the green algae in the water column which is making everything look dirty (of course).

Battle with green water has commenced.  I've dropped the lights on routing to just 6 hours and have committed to a 50% (90ltr) water change tonight, Thursday and Saturday to try and reduce as much of the algae in the water as possible.  Then we wait through next week, keeping the short lighting regime to see what happens.

Now, I'm aware that I'm trying to find a balance, one that will get easier as the plants grow, but right now there's too many nutrients not enough plants.  So battle continues.

After this, my next step will be getting UV kit, which is an expense (circa £60-70) that I'd rather not make (car is in the shop, again!).

Onwards!  ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 07, 2013, 07:42:46 PM
End Of Week #7

My planned heavy lifting of water has been done this week, and the water today looks absolutely amazing.  I'll be keeping the lower 6 hour lights on regime, but will now not be changing the water as I want to observe the growth of the algae.  From this experiment I should be able to determine whether I keep a balance with smaller water changes (oh yes please). Ideally I'd like the max to be a 40L change each week (about 23%), but I reckon it will be a while before I get to that stage, so we'll see. By next weekend I will make a decision on whether to get the UV kit or persevere with larger water changes.

Bonus note is that I did a filter clean last Sunday and replaced the phosphate pad. This is now helping to get the level down. The pad that came with the filter was in there for 45 days, and looking at the readings became saturated at around the 30 day mark.  That fits in with the manufacturers own estimates of 4-6 weeks.

Date|GH|KH|pH|Phosphate|Ammonia|NitrIte|NitrAte|Water Change|
Mon 1st Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Tue 2nd Apr|5|4|7.5|3|0|0|10|50%|
Wed 3rd Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Thu 4th Apr|6|5|7.5|2|0|0|7.5|50%|
Fri 5th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Sat 6th Apr|7|5|7.5|2|0|0|5|50%|
Sun 7th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|

This weeks pics attached.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on April 08, 2013, 07:52:36 AM
That's looking good.... and you'll be looking quite 'toned' if you keep doing all those water changes. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Natalia on April 08, 2013, 11:18:49 PM
Hi Dave,
I must admit – I am a little bit puzzled with the things you do and the reasons behind it...  First of all – and sorry to be harsh (if I am) – you tank is not a planted tank. It is a tank with a few plants, that’s it... Personally, I think you have put yourself in the most difficult position with regards of running this tank –  generic rules of a non planted tank do not quite apply as well as generic rules of a planted tank...
I am sorry if I missed something – I only have limited time so I only briefly scanned through the thread (I think I even posted once a while ago...).  So, apologies if I misread/missed something. Why are you doing those large water changes and have a Phosphate removing pad? I understood that your tap water has plenty of Phosphate  so by doing these water changes, you actually adding more than usual – and then you have to change the Phosphate pad as it gets saturated! Is not this counterproductive? Another thing – what is the aim of large water changes ? I am not saying they are never good – on the contrary! (I do fairly large ones on all of my tanks on a regular basis – alternating them with smaller ones). But there must be a reason for everything... If you are trying to bring Phosphates and Nitrates to as close to zero whilst trying to grow plants – you are fundamentally wrong. Phosphates and Nitrates are the two of a number of major nutrients for plants – removing them to zero means that you are simply starving your plants.... I have to ADD both of those in my planted tanks (albeit, my tanks have much more “greenery” than yours) – but even small amount of plants will need some of these nutrients.
Hence I am puzzled – I do not understand your goals,  and I think you might be moving in the wrong direction....
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 09, 2013, 12:19:38 AM
If you take some time to read my posts, you would (or should) see clearly what I have done and what I am doing. As one of my old teachers used to say "discover by reading and listening, learn by doing".

I'm not overly concerned about phosphates, there is far more in the water than my 'moderate' splattering of plants could consume.  My observations about the pad are just that; observations. Nitrates are also not a concern, the output from the bio load is currently quite small and I am quite happy with the water parameters generally.

As in the postings above, I did have a growing problem with various types of algae, which I have already dealt with and cured.

My only concern at the moment is green water algae and finding a balance as plants grow and my fish stock gets bigger.  My tests are to determine whether I can balance water clarity easily, without needing to buy a UV unit to help me along. I already know the green algae will continue to grow as there isn't enough competition for nutrients.

I tend to micro-manage, it's a trait I enjoy and probably in part due to my job (I'm a software engineer) and helps me understand how things work.  Once I understand a system, or a part of it, I relax and stop working so hard.  I did the same thing with my 64L tank which now I only maintain once a week, because I understand it.  If I wrote what I'd done with that tank over the last year you would probably cringe.

Please do read the posts above when you have more time, as your experienced input is welcome.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Natalia on April 09, 2013, 09:26:28 PM
Hi Dave,
Yes, I read the whole thread again... Unfortunately, I did not get any additional information (note: my “quick reading” is a technique which helps to absorb as much information in a shorter length of time – so, really, I was doubting myself after your suggestion but realized that I should have not...)
Anyway – after re-reading the thread slowly I still am confused about what you are doing. You have created such a “mish-mash” of the different technics – it is simply amazing. It could have been a break through in the aquarium hobby if it worked but is not so far...
First of all – you “silent cycle” was not really one (you needed 200% more plants to make it reasonable). Secondarily – you used dirt as a medium but you need at least 100% more rooted plants to neutralize the negative effects of putting highly “active” substrate medium – the more, the better.
You have experienced Ammonia spikes – these would have not happen if you had more plants. You dirt substrate is leaching ammonia into the water BECAUSE there is no enough plant cover! This is what caused you green water algae and the death of your tetra. The moss and Anubias will NOT solve this problem as their uptake of nutrients is very slow. I can predict that the Ammonia spikes will be less and less frequent and less intense as your dirt matures in the tank but you will still have a few more. The rise of Phosphate in the water column is again triggered by so much of fresh dirt without enough of rooted plants. Your extensive water changes may help against green water (not 100% guarantee and a lot of water changes before you see the permanent result). The water changes are necessary for the foreseeable future to help to keep you fish alive, though.
The course of action (you may take it or leave it as you wish): immediately buy hornwort (ceratophyllum demersum), wash it and add to the tank (floating plant); continue with water changes; buy vallis and more of starogine, plant them; continue with water changes; as vallis and starogine grow, you may gradually remove hornwort. This will ensure that you tank will not go into a complete disaster but will recover and “perk up”. Hopefully, these measures will eliminate the green water algae (no guarantee for that and you might have to buy a UV filter – but I am trying to save money for you – it is better to spend it on more plants that the UV filter). And remember – dirt substrate tanks should be a JUNGLE not a few plants here and there.
That’s it. Take it or leave it – you decide.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 09, 2013, 10:07:57 PM
Thanks for your input.  :)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 14, 2013, 10:44:50 PM
End Of Week #8

I deliberately left the tank alone this week to see how much the Green Water Algae would grow, and with a single 50% water change on Saturday, the clarity is quite acceptable.  This next week I'll be splitting the water change into two parts to make it a bit easier, and I have increased the lights on by an hour to cover 5pm to midnight.

So, I believe my test has allowed me to find a good balance of amount of water change to preserve water clarity over a full week. I'm quite happy with that amount for now, so I'll not be getting a UV unit.

All other water parameters are as expected, with no surprises.

Date|GH|KH|pH|Phosphate|Ammonia|NitrIte|NitrAte|Water Change|
Mon 8th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Tue 9th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Wed 10th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Thu 11th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Fri 12th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
Sat 13th Apr|7|6|7.5|1|0|0|10|50%|
Sun 7th Apr|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|

This weeks pics attached.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 14, 2013, 11:40:51 PM
I'd like to go back to Natalia's narrative if I may, just to pull out entries for further clarity or for additional conversation.

Anyway – after re-reading the thread slowly I still am confused about what you are doing. You have created such a “mish-mash” of the different technics – it is simply amazing. It could have been a break through in the aquarium hobby if it worked but is not so far...

Well, you would need to explain what this "mish-mash" you have read actually is. I don't believe I have done anything unusual, and certainly nowhere near a "break through in the aquarium hobby".  What is it you think I'm doing that gives you this impression.

First of all – you “silent cycle” was not really one

Granted, and as it was a mere blip it went away within days. I didn't expect to see it as I have never done this type of tank before.

you used dirt as a medium but you need at least 100% more rooted plants to neutralize the negative effects of putting highly “active” substrate medium – the more, the better.

That would be great, but it isn't going to happen with the budget allocated.  It isn't a problem.

You have experienced Ammonia spikes – these would have not happen if you had more plants. You dirt substrate is leaching ammonia into the water BECAUSE there is no enough plant cover!  The moss and Anubias will NOT solve this problem as their uptake of nutrients is very slow. I can predict that the Ammonia spikes will be less and less frequent and less intense as your dirt matures in the tank but you will still have a few more.

I have experienced one single Ammonia spike right at the beginning. It went away. There have been no other Ammonia spikes other than what I have manually introduced whilst preparing the tank for residents.

This is what caused you green water algae and the death of your tetra.

There is no way you could know why the Tetra died; even I couldn't know the cause.  It is highly unlikely to have died from an Ammonia spike (because there wasn't any) or GWA (if it was pea-soup, my fish would never be in the tank anyway).

The rise of Phosphate in the water column is again triggered by so much of fresh dirt without enough of rooted plants.

Nope, there is no increase in Phosphates coming from the substrate.  My tap-water contains a very high level, 5ppm or more.

Your extensive water changes may help against green water (not 100% guarantee and a lot of water changes before you see the permanent result). The water changes are necessary for the foreseeable future to help to keep you fish alive, though.

GWA is the only thing that concerns me at present, as noted in my previous posts.  However, it appears I have found the right balance to sustain the clarity of the water for now.

The course of action (you may take it or leave it as you wish): immediately buy hornwort (ceratophyllum demersum), wash it and add to the tank (floating plant); continue with water changes; buy vallis and more of starogine, plant them; continue with water changes; as vallis and starogine grow, you may gradually remove hornwort. This will ensure that you tank will not go into a complete disaster but will recover and “perk up”.

That's super info, but it isn't going to happen on my budget, certainly not this side of Summer.  You have made a prediction that if I do not follow this guidance my tank will fail. I can't really accept that based on what I'm observing in the tank.  I think you are painting a unfairly dark picture.

That’s it. Take it or leave it – you decide.

Again, thanks for the input.  You have made some interesting observations and suggestions, which of course are taken on-board to be used if needed in the future.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on April 15, 2013, 07:54:38 AM
Good to see your Crypts growing.... and I think the Anubias is great. It's a lovely species of the genus and I've 'filed' it for future reference to use myself.

The Taiwan's looking....errrrr..... interesting after the 'Attack Of The Giant Shrimps' episode. ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 21, 2013, 11:48:42 PM
End Of Week #9

Plants continue to grow pretty well.  The Taiwan has now doubled in length and at last has sprouted another leaf at the base.  I'm so happy with the plants generally, that I've taken cuttings for addition in my isolation tank.  I've snipped part of the Coffeefolia, 2 stems from the Repens and now have seven rosettes from the prolific Quadricostatus.

My playing around with the GWA and water changes didn't really pay off, as the water got quite ugly early in the week.  I've now ordered a UV Unit which will be a couple weeks.

Saturday was the end of my first three week isolation of new fish, so now I have added the 6 Cherry Barbs and Glowlight Danio female to the tank.  The Barbs have settled in very nicely, and the 4 male Glowlight Danios have been less aggressive after adding the second female.  I'll be keeping a watch on them, but I have the option of taking 3 males to LFS for re-homing and replacing with females.

Pond snail count was around 50, so I've added 3 Assassin Snails to try and keep it under control.  The Assassins have already been busy as I've found 3 empty shells within 24 hours.  I even managed to watch an Assassin take out a pond snail earlier tonight. Amazing. The Assassin slid away from the empty shell, buried itself in the sand and is now asleep... fat 'n happy... bless.  ;D

My isolation tank now houses a new batch of fish; one Glowlight Tetra to replace the one deceased 3 weeks ago, and 5 Black Neon Tetra.

Other water parameters are nice and stable, no surprises.

This weeks pics attached.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Natalia on April 26, 2013, 11:03:55 PM
Hi Dave,
As I am “celebrating” my last day visiting this forum (for at least the nearest future), I feel that I don’t really “fit” into this forum and, frankly, I started to feel that there is no need for me being on this forum advising (in vain) what is actually can be picked up by a proper research... I am going to do a couple of posts anyway, and feel the reply to you should be among them.
Firstly, explaining the “mish-mash”. Fundamentally, there are two types of tropical tanks: planted and non-planted. Planted tanks have a few recognized methods/techniques: high-tech, low-tech and El Naturel (see Diana Walstad’s book). These methods are reasonably flexible to an extent but still any tank maintained falls into one or another category. The “mish-mash” you have created is the fact that you have fundamentally what is called a non planted tank (e.g. a tank with a few plants) and you use the substrate for El Naturel type with the routine of a high-tech tank!
I could not really believe that you dismissed my suggestion of buying more plants due to financial reasons but then bought a UV filter, honestly! This soo much undermines your whole way of reasoning. You said you could not afford plants... A bunch of Vallis costs about £2 (£5 for 3) in the LFS’s across the country and Tropica pots (Starogine as any other plant) is widely sold for £10 per three pots (unless you live somewhere obscure that this general tendency dos not apply). £30 or even £15 would have been the start of solving your problem – you have opted to mask the problem (not cure it) with an UV filter which, I bet, cost you  much-much more.
Ammonia spikes. They are called “spikes” for a reason. They do not time their appearance to the time you do your water testing. They come and go – sometimes a few times in a short period of time. You really have to be there testing every hour to detect them – you should know that by now. Undetected by once in a while testing these spikes damage your fish and influence the overall state of your tank – hence your green water algae and your poor tetra...
In fairness, not only dirt but very expensive and iconic substrates like ADA ones do leach ammonia in the first few weeks (or months) – hence they are ideal of doing a fishless cycle without adding Ammonia from a bottle (again, you should know this before you put dirt into your tank!) Apart from Ammonia, substrates not covered with plants leach (and will continue to do so) all sorts of “stuff” (you should have investigated this before putting dirt into what is fundamentally a tank with VERY few plants – which really should have started with a principle of a non-planted tank, e.g. dirt was a mistake altogether with the level of planting you have).
Your newly bought UV filter will “mask” the problem e.g. by killing the free suspended green water algae but it will not eliminate the main problem – NOT ENOUGH PLANTS. Other problems will be lingering in the vicinity manifesting themselves as soon as they can. Again, I am still in disbelief that you rejected buying new plants for your, frankly, bare, tank but spent money on UV filter instead.
For your (and others) information: Amano shrimps do NOT eat HEALTHY plants. They only attack what is disintegrating in plant tissue. So your Taiwan being eaten overnight is not a surprise. What still looked O.K. to your human eye was, in fact, dying – and this is why the Amanos “all of a sudden” started eating it (they did not do that from the very start, did they???)
As a finishing touch – please, see photos of three of my 6 planted tanks(made with a very old 12 years camera, so not that good as photographs) They are all planted but I would not call them HEAVILY planted – you will see what I mean calling your tank a bare one.
Do read Diana Walstad’s book, do a search for Tom Barr (search for Barr Report) on the net – and do think and apply the knowledge to your particular tank. I have been corresponding with Diana and Tom replied to a couple of my messages on another forum – I think I do know something about keeping plants but the main mistake is (as you did) to assume you already have got enough of knowledge... By the number of times you log in I can guess that you are much luckier than me working from 8:30 till whenever I can escape from work – not having time to look elsewhere but work matters. As you have much more time on your hands you should have gained much more knowledge than me – if you only looked and did not assume you already know everything...
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 27, 2013, 09:58:49 AM
^^

This is the reason I don't frequent large forums anymore, I've had my fill of elitist high-and-mighty posters to last a lifetime.  Suggestions are great, usually helpful, and always welcomed, but when used as part of an attack I'll always question the motives.

Did I reject getting more plants as an option?  No, I thought about it, and even freed up a slice of my household budget.  I made a choice, obviously one you don't like, but I have no intention of justifying my actions to someone who posts with such an abhorrent attitude. I even now get attacked for logging on to the forum more than once a day... that's quite a chip on your shoulder missy.

I could go on and make further objections to your missive, but I won't bother pointing out where you are wrong, and where I agree with you.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Resa on April 27, 2013, 03:24:35 PM
What a shame some people have to be so unpleasant :(  I really don't feel that it's anyones business but your own, how many times you do or do not visit the forum.  Personally, I am always popping in and out...my son often comments, "oh, she's thinking fish again"  :D  Yet, I have a business to run, a home and massive garden to keep and 2 men to pick up after, not to mention an abundance of friends both here and in the UK to keep up with, plus of course my lovely fish to sit and gaze at. ;) Perhaps, others would have more time for the friendly chat and banter that we normally experience on this forum, if they took more care with what they were reading in the first place? 
I have to admit that I needed to read Natalia's posts several times to fully understand them as her writing is not that clear. I wondered if this and her abrasive manner were because maybe english is not her first language?  I didn't particularly feel that she was very helpful in her comments, either in giving much information or in the manner in which she did give her opinions, which is a shame because many people, including myself, would have welcomed solid knowledge on aquarium planting.

I have only ever experienced on this forum friendliness, patience, helpful advice and if the answers were not known to my problem, support.  I look forward to logging in and seeing how everyone is doing...and what new fishy stuff they have got :D

Personally, I am extremely pleased to have discovered this site first, as I did find some of the other ones after and would have been entirely put off any forums if they were my only choice.
So, perhaps it is for the best that Natalia returns to one of these where she will be happier and be with like-minded people.

I apologise for my rambling but this did rather rattle my cage >:(
Have a nice weekend Dave

Resa
  :)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on April 27, 2013, 03:50:36 PM
Exactly - keep posting Dave. I enjoy reading about what you're doing.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 27, 2013, 05:01:34 PM
 :) Thanks peeps, I appreciate that a lot.  Normal service has been resumed.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: jesnon on April 27, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
I was quite confused and upset by Natalia's more recent comments. When I first joined the forum she was very welcoming and patient and gave me great advice. She has a great knowledge and was an asset to the forum especially in all things  plants. It's a shame to see such nastiness instead :-(
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 28, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
Ok.

End of Week 10.

I've done two 50% water changes this week (Thu+Sat) to get the water clarity to an acceptable level for picture taking.  UV kit is now installed, so at least I can start to let my aching right arm recover from all that heavy lifting. I have definitely managed to get myself a strain injury.  >:(

The Taiwan continues to gather strength, with 4 stalks showing leaf growth.  The Echinodorus quadricostatus seems to be determined to make a break for freedom and has now grown up the right side to almost the surface of the water column.  The other one has grown its runner around the back right corner and is breaking out along the back of the tank.

This weeks pics attached.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on April 29, 2013, 07:28:31 AM
That's really starting to take shape. With the Echinodorus quadricostatus, can you cut it into the little sections and plant each of those? I can't quite get enough detail of the plant to see if each section has grown a root or not.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 29, 2013, 09:46:22 AM
Thank Colin,

Yes on the Quad, each of the rosettes appear on the runner every 3 inches and immediately drop a root then grow leaves (clever plant). I took a cutting last week and dropped them into my isolation tank, but they are not getting anywhere near enough nutrients to grow much in there.  It kind of shows how well the 180ltr is going considering I don't add any additional ferts.  I'm going to attack them this coming weekend and get the rosettes planted along the borders of the gravel and sand.   If they keep on going, as I'm sure they will, I'll be able to start creating an interesting looking carpet going over the sand.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: jimbo1goey on April 29, 2013, 12:53:39 PM
Really enjoying following your progress Dave, by the looks of things, although young, your tank will be well and truely planted in no time - attack of the underwater triffids!  ;)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 29, 2013, 01:50:02 PM
Thanks Jimbo, that's very encouraging.   :)

I'm pretty sure that in a few months the whole tank will have improved no end, but yes you are quite right, it's still only a young build yet, and plenty of growing to be done.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on April 29, 2013, 07:23:32 PM
Well, the UV kit is doing its thang... the water is even better tonight.  Problem is...

I can now see how dirty the glass in the tank is.  ::)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Resa on April 29, 2013, 07:28:03 PM
I don't know much about these UV kits.  Is it something that all tanks could benefit from?

Resa
  :)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Sue on April 29, 2013, 07:44:15 PM
Generally speaking, UV should not be used all the time. Yes, they do get rid of algae and bugs in the water, but this leaves the fish with nothing to build up resistance to if they are run full time and kill everything in the water. The danger lies in the fact that the bulbs have to replaced on a regular basis; if not obviously they stop killing things and if the fish are then exposed to a pathogen (from getting new fish, plants etc) they will have no resistance to the bugs.
Used on a less than full time basis to contol bouts of green water or to kill any bugs when the fish are sick is not a problem.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Resa on April 29, 2013, 08:00:09 PM
Hi Sue,

Thanks for the info, I guess I don't really need one then.  Just thought I'd check in case I could do better by my fishies! ;)

Another question for you in particular, what do you think is the best temperature to keep a bettas water at, please?  Also, I've probably asked this before, but are there any fish, maybe smallish ones that shoal that would pretty much be alright in with Rafe, (25L)?  Or maybe some others you could suggest, just to give his tank a bit more life.

Thanks Sue,

Resa
  :)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: Sue on April 29, 2013, 08:15:00 PM
I keep my bettas at 25-26o C

25 litres is a bit small for a shoal of anything. The problem with bettas is that they are so unpredictable. Any particular one could be OK with, say, a few male endlers, but if he turned out to be an aggressive one they wouldn't last long. Fish like dwarf corydoras are recommended tankmates but a 25 litre tank won't have enough floor space for a shoal of them.
In a 25 litre tank, any shoaling fish would have to be very small and I'd be worried that a betta would see them as lunch.

Sorry, not what you want to hear  :-\


After a month or two, I'll put a snail in with mine. I've always had snails with my bettas but this time I'm waiting because snails are badly affected by unstable water conditions in a newly cycled tank.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 05, 2013, 06:41:42 PM
End Of Week #11

UV Kit

The UV was running for a full 28 hours (Sunday 28th through Monday 29th April) and as the water was nicely cleared, I added a segment timer and cut the regime down to 15 minutes per hour.  This to preserve the lifetime of the bulb as much as possible. Hopefully my 4,000 hours recommended will take me into March 2014 at the current regime.  The question remains as to whether switching the unit on and off on a regular basis has a detrimental effect on the bulb... jury is out on that.

Aquascaping (aka Fiddling with stuff)

This is a dangerously addictive thing to do, but I am going to be strong.

I have been looking more closely at other plant growth (now that I can actually see through the water properly makes a huge difference). So, I've decided to do a little bit of rearranging as some of the plants on the right are being swamped and are not growing too quickly at all. So, this evening I'm starting a bit of 'scaping. Now that growth patterns seem to be settled I can now see which plants will do better in front, middle or to the rear.

My end game (for want of a better description) is to remove the gravel completely in preference for just sand.  I was hoping that the gravel and sand borders would "blend", but to be honest it just looks scruffy.  Although it'll mean shifting stuff around, I'm hoping to be able to take cuttings of the smaller plants (Repens for example) to enable a larger physical area to be covered. I'll be starting on the left third because there's actually less in there to start with.  The fly-away Quadricostatus will be brought under control too.

Additions

I've managed to acquire two pots of Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig' (Rosae Australis) (link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=050B)), which have been sitting in my isolation tank since last weekend. It is quite tall already, some 11 inches, so will make a great background.  Apparently very easy to propagate, which will help me build up a nice bush.

Another acquisition is a large 4.9Kg lump of Ocean Rock, and 6 palm sized rounded stones of a pale pink colour. The Ocean Rock has some interesting holes and cavities into which will be placed some sort of plant-life.

This weeks photo's attached.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on May 06, 2013, 09:14:57 AM
Lookin' good. I've got the H. polysperma in my isolating tank and it grows like buggery (technical term). If you keep cutting it back then it gets nice and bushy and spreads out and scoffs nitrates like there's no tomorrow. You can plant the cuttings and they take-off quickly, too. I have to kill it by throwing cuttings in the compost bin!
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 09, 2013, 08:19:15 PM
Here's a taster of my re-scaping efforts so far.  I've dug out the gravel from the left third of the tank (pain in the rear that was), removed all the plants that were there and recreated from scratch with added decor.  I've added one pot of Polysperma and have been replanting bits across from the right side of the tank.  I have another pot of Polysperma to add into the back, and more Repens to carpet in the open area.  I'll be expanding this theme across the tank over the next couple of weeks.

Pics attached.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on May 10, 2013, 07:34:54 AM
I like that Ocean rock.... (any more info on that available, please?) and it adds a more 3-D look to the tank which I like, plus interesting exploration activities to keep your fish amused. What's not to like?
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 10, 2013, 12:49:15 PM
Apart from it being a large and heavy lump of rock, a piece from a much larger lump, the colour and shape attracted me right away.  I pulled this from a small collection of assorted rock, stones and pebbles in my local Maidenhead Aquatics @ £2.99 a Kg.  Despite the cost, I spent £20 on that and the 6 pale pink stones, I am over the moon with how it looks.  Sometimes I simply have to impulse buy, I am weak and feeble  ;D

There is a nice formation at the base that the fish can swim through, a large crevice at the top where I have planted my Anubias barteri var. angustifolia and a little Eleocharis parvula.  There was a neat little hole on the left side, so I pushed in a stem of Staurogyne repens for good measure.

It's truly awesome what nature can do to rock over many centuries, the shapes can be really incredible.

As it's a calciferous rock, I was informed that it would affect pH, KH and GH slightly upwards, but I don't think that will cause me any problems.  My Cotswold rock I used to use in my small tank did that too, but I never used vast amounts of it to worry.

I really do like the contrast in colours between the green of the plants, white and pale pink.  With the Polysperma in the background also having some light pink leaves, it all looks rather sweet.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on May 10, 2013, 01:38:58 PM
Cheers Dave. I've never seen anything like that in my local MA so I'll have a closer look next time I'm in.

p.s. I, too, am a weak and feeble creature. :)
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 12, 2013, 10:56:37 PM
End of Week #12

Black Neon Tetras (x5) and the replacement Glowlight Tetra were transferred from 3 week isolation on Saturday and have settled in nicely.  I also added another 3 Assassin Snails to complement the work done so far by the first 3.  Pond snails are definitely on the decline.

Next new residents were added to isolation on Sunday, in the form of Golden Pencilfish (x5) and Penguin Tetra (x5)

I've got hold of some more stones and smaller and rougher piece of Ocean Rock for the next stage in reshaping the Roma tank during this week.

This weeks pics attached.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 19, 2013, 11:17:00 PM
End of Week #13

Nothing of note to report this week, I've basically done nothing to the tank.  I'm on a few days off from work over this coming weekend so will have time to get stuck in and complete my intended mods.  Rock, stone and pebbles await!

Pics attached.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 27, 2013, 04:40:43 PM
End of Week #14

I delayed the photos for a day as the water was a bit mucky after a couple of days digging out the rest of the tank.  I've now added back in the extra pieces of stone, large pebbles and the second bit of Ocean Rock.  For now I've not added back the wood as I think I'm going to use it all in my 64ltr instead.  There are still a small number of plants to put back in, which I'll be doing this evening and tomorrow (extra day off work).

I lost a Black Neon Tetra too, found it when the lights came on this afternoon, no apparent damage.  :'(

Now that I have the rest of the tank dug out, and new decor in, I am definitely happier with the rocky look, it feels much more natural (even though it doesn't resemble a real habitat).  Removing the dark wood and the dark green mass of Java Moss has lifted the visual brightness of the tank a great deal.

Pics attached.  I'll followup with some more detailed images.
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 27, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
Added some medium sized close-ups of the left, middle and right sections.  The left section has been replanted since May 9th and is filling out very well indeed. Previous pics are [HERE (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,161.msg3427.html#msg3427)] for comparison.

Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: ColinB on May 28, 2013, 03:45:59 PM
That certainly looks different.... and good. I like the rocks.

Have you thought about any floating plants to offer some shady spots?

Sorry about your Black Neon.  :(
Title: Re: Preparations for a Planted Tank
Post by: TigzFish on May 28, 2013, 04:15:42 PM
Thanks Colin, yup I like the rocks too. (Note to self, don't bugger about with it again).

Have you thought about any floating plants to offer some shady spots?

I hadn't actually, any suggestions?

The Echinodorus "Red Special" [link (http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plantdescription.aspx?pid=073J)] I have now cut right back and replanted in the back right corner of the tank.  The biggest leaves were over 30cm long and 10cm wide, so quite a monster. It should grow up and over the right side rock quite nicely.  Considering the size of the leaves, this will provide a pretty large umbrella in a few weeks time.