Plants And Stocking Levels

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Offline Helen

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Plants and stocking levels
« on: February 28, 2015, 08:29:05 PM »
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I apologise in advance if the answer to this question is on the website. I've had a look and can't find any reference, but could just be being daft.

How does live plants effect stocking levels? I have quite a heavily planted tank, but am looking to increase my stock levels. The community creator has me on amber stock at 75%. I thought I've read before that heavy planting can enable higher stock levels, but am not totally sure. And if it does, how much can I push it? I don't want to be in a position where I need to increase my water changes to cope with the additional stock. But I also know from past experience that my plants do better when there are more fish providing CO2 and ferts.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2015, 07:54:45 AM »
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You'll probably find many answers to this, some vehemently opposed to others!

My tanks (9 at present) are all well planted and are all overstocked according to the community creator. I've had no problems whatsoever with fish health or water quality.

Plants are undoubtedly capable of using up fish waste products. After all, people kept fish successfully for decades before the modern concept of biological filtration came in, mainly by aiming for a balanced tank in which plants and fish complimented each other. In theory, an adequately filtered tank which is also well planted can hold a higher stocking level than one with few or no plants. Having started with a soil under gravel substrate, my plants were growing pretty well before I added any fish, but there was a real spurt in growth once the fish went in. I used ammonia for cycling, which would have provided plenty of nitrogen, and the soil would have enough of the other nutrients. This leads me to conclude that it was the extra carbon dioxide from the fish that was the main reason for the spurt in plant growth.

Unlike Diana Walstad (I don't always agree with her), who says that biological filtration is not necessary in a densely planted tank, mine are actually over filtered, in most cases by having two smallish filters rather than one oversized one. This gives good filtration without causing too high currents and would be less disastrous if one failed.

I do try to create a mini ecosystem in each tank. As well as plants, I also have snails in every tank plus some other invertebrates which I'll get round to writing about some day. My tanks are not neat underwater  "gardens", but a tangle of plants including Java moss and lots of floating Amazon Frogbit with long roots trailing down and, yes, filamentous algae in some cases. My aim is to make something that looks like a natural environment rather than a pretty picture and I believe the fish, which are all fairly small and in shoals, are comfortable in these conditions. Many people will probably scream in horror at my stocking densities, low level water changes, low temperatures (23oC or less and other things, but "the proof of the pudding .................".

I have digressed quite a lot, but I would say that you definitely can stock more densely in a well-planted tank and that your 75% is well below what would be comfortable. I'm sure others will have a contrary view.

Offline Sue

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2015, 10:21:49 AM »
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Richard, do plants remove other things besides ammonia/nitrate and CO2? I'm thinking of the reed beds used at Wilton to clean up water from the chemical plant. Can plants help with the organic waste created by the fish? Are some plants better at doing this than others?

In tanks that have no live plants or just a few, sensible stocking and water changes are important to keep these organics at low levels as well as nitrate. But heavily planted tanks seem to be able to take care of themselves to a large extent. Is my understanding correct?

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2015, 11:31:53 AM »
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Plants do remove heavy metals, though that shouldn't be an issue with an aquarium as I guess everybody uses a conditioner that deals with them. Perhaps the other main thing is phosphate, which can be high in tap water and is usually blamed for algal blooms in rivers and lakes. Aquarists worry about nitrates since they have an effect on fish but tend to ignore phosphates completely. Algae in tanks is usually blamed on too much nitrate or too much light, but I often wonder if phosphates are a factor.

According to Walstad, breakdown of organic matter is one of the main sources of CO2 for plants in aquaria. From my long ago organic chemistry, I seem to remember that CO2  and H2O are produced in many reactions, most equations could be balanced by a molecule or a few of these! Certainly, I virtually never get any accumulation of mulm in my tanks, which I assume is because I have a good population of heterotrophic bacteria which break down the fish poo etc into smaller molecules which the plants use. The snails probably help in this process. Regular weekly cleaning of the substrate probably greatly reduces the population of bacteria.

To quote Walstad again:
"Having a ‘dirty’ aquarium that will support good plant growth requires a leap of faith. The hobbyist must believe that plants can help purify the aquarium".

Personally I would change "believe" to "be convinced by the evidence" since I don't believe in belief  :).

Offline Sue

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2015, 11:41:41 AM »
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I was thinking more of organic compounds in the water rather than solid matter. Thinks like hormones, pheromones etc. For example, I know that hormones have been accused of causing stunting in some fish species - the dominant fish secretes hormones that stop the 'lower' members of the species developing fully.

How does a heavily stocked, heavily planted tank deal with these?

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 11:55:25 AM »
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I've no idea. Personally, I wonder if these are really a common issue, certainly I've seen no evidence myself. Though I would imagine that a biologically diverse tank with a wide range of bacteria would be more likely to break down any organic compounds present than would a super clean and relatively sterile one. Maybe that's where these problems occur??

Offline Helen

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2015, 02:22:33 PM »
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Phosphate is definitely one of the main causes of algae problems. And it is the ratio of phosphate to nitrate that is important for plant growth. I have previously had issues with algae because my phosphate levels were too high. But the solution turned out to be to add nitrates! The tap water in my area has less than 5ppm of nitrates and I've never been able to stock enough fish to keep up with the plants' demands.

Richard, the 75% I'm looking at doesn't worry me. I'm trying to decide whether to go for the extra fish I have my eye on! It won't be straight away, but in the next few months, if I see them.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 02:34:07 PM »
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I broke the rules (again) by putting all of my fish in at once in most of my tanks. It made sense after spending all that time adding ammonia to build up and maintain the bacteria levels, and I waited weeks (actually months) for the whole tank to become mature, rather than just the filter. I've had no problems. Adding new fish to an established tank always brings the risk of disease, but getting them all in at once from one source meant that disease would likely appear pretty quickly and at least I only had to look out for it for a couple of weeks rather than every time I added new fish. And of course the fish I added were by no means fully grown so that I was not actually stocking fully, while the filter bacteria had time (if they really needed it) to grow with the fish.

It would be interesting to see a proper reference to the phosphate/nitrate balance for algae, I'm not quite convinced until I do!

Offline Helen

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Re: Plants and stocking levels
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 09:32:01 PM »
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I've had my tank about 5 years now, and did loads of research at the beginning to try to identify and solve the problems in my tank. I definitely read about the phosphate / nitrate ratio, as it also quantified the ratio. But I can't for the life of me remember where that would have been.

But it is also the optimum growing conditions (macro nutrients) for terrestrial plants PKN, (phosphate, potassium, nitrate). To promote plant growth, it is about getting the right ratio of nutrients. So if there's a problem, you look for the one that is the inhibitor. When you've fixed it, you move onto the next one and so on. Because algae are less complex organisms, they are excellent at taking advantage of the imbalance and use up the nutrient that is in excess. Phosphate is commonly in fish food, which is why it is often blamed for algae blooms in tanks when the cause is overfeeding. When there's more food than the fish can eat, there will be too much phosphate in the water compared to the amount of nitrate that the same fish can excrete.

Previously I had a much more high intensity tank, though with T8 lights, additional blue and red LEDs, injected CO2. After a long period of neglect, I am now looking towards a less intense set up. The LEDs have gone, as well as the CO2. But as I have a spare tank, I'm contemplating temporarily setting up the CO2 to help get the new plants established.

A lot of the issues I have had with my tank are associated with living in an area that has rather soft water and very low nitrates and unfortunately they will still exist even with a low intensity regime. I have to do water changes to add nutrients to my tank. The nutrient that has the biggest effect on my fish is lack of calcium in the water. And the stem plants I had were taking any calcium that was there, making it worse. So I'd like to avoid stem plants and the frequency of my water changes is set by the calcium and nitrate levels.

And because my tank is pretty well established, I have to restock slowly and don't have the time to be doing a complete substrate change, so am stuck with the small gravel I originally set up with.

If you're interested, here is a link to a post in the gallery forum about my tank, before it got neglected. I will update when my tank has done a bit more growing.
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,78.0.html

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