Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Tank Plant Advice => Topic started by: Sue on June 22, 2013, 02:05:35 PM
-
I have three tanks, a 125 litre, a 50 litre and a 25 litre. In the larger tanks I had a mixture of Salvinia (either natans or minima) and duck weed on the surface. The Salvinia in the 125 had been there since Jan 2010 and in the 50 since I got it last May. I've always had to throw handfuls in the compost bin to keep it under control. As for the duckweed, I did have some several years ago but it vanished, then it suddenly appeared again this year, possibly a contaminant in a bag of fish.
I did water changes on all my tanks this morning, slightly overdue (9 days since the last one) as I twisted my knee the day I should have done them. When I opened the tanks, I found all the Salvinia was brown in both tanks and all the duckweed was white. They were fine 9 days ago. I had noticed reddish speckles on the Salvinia in the 125 but assumed I'd accidentally tipped fish food over it when I was feeding the fish. The feeding hatch on the 50 is not over the end of the tank with the Salvinia so I wouldn't have seen anything in there.
The java fern and anubias look fine, it's just the floating plants that are dead.
I've tested the water in the 50 for everything I have testers for. It was only after I'd filled up the 125 that I realised I should have tetsted in there so did the 50 instead.
pH between 7.2 and 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20 (tapwater 5)
KH 3
GH 8
All the test results look the same as they've always done.
Things I've done recently:
Added Seachem Flourish after the last but one water change (just over 2 weeks ago) at half the recommended dose as I don't have many plants, and from the same bottle I've been using for a year or so.
I bought some shrimps and fish 2 weeks ago, the fish went in the 125 and the shrimps in the 50. I did not quarantine them. I always net fish/shrimps out of the bag after acclimation so there would have been only a tiny amount of shop water got into each tank - and the shrimp tank at the shop was full of live, healthy looking duckweed.
I've fed the fish/shrimps finely chopped spinach over the last couple of weeks or so to try and give some green stuff to the cherry shrimps to see if that would help stop them dying (one website blamed the kind of deaths I've been seeing on lack of calcium containing food, and spinach contains calcium). I've put spinach in the 125 litre once (amano shrimps) but 3 or 4 times in the 50.
Help!!!!!!
What has killed my floating plants in two tanks at the same time? Why are the java fern and anubias still alive?
-
I know I'm new to all this and know nothing at all about aquarium plants, but could it be light related, with the nights being lighter longer. Or possibly heat related, with it being quite warm (I had to put my ceiling fans on last night I got so hot). :(
-
You really shouldn't be allowed to have plants! ;) Duckweed is indestructible! After the third Atomic Apocalypse, the only surviving species will be rats, cockroaches and duckweed. It's a criminal offence under the wildlife and countryside act to even let a sniff of this stuff escape into the wild. I think the penalty is the loss of your first-born ;D
The tirade above is cover for the fact that I don't know what has killed your plants! Sorry. So I will have to make some suggestions. 9 days since your last water-change. (I hope your leg's better by the way) You have soft-water, so could you have had a pH crash? I assume the measurements you posted were from the 50 litre before a water change which would suggest not, but I don't know if the bioload on your other tank is significantly different. Nitrates at 20 isn't criminal (I would kill to get that level of nitrates in my tap water)
Seachem Flourish at half dose shouldn't cause any problems unless it was flourish excel, some plants are sensitive to this stuff. Similarly, I haven't heard of any lurgy you can introduce into a tank by not quarantining livestock that affects only floating plants!
Which leaves us with spinach! (As an aside, spinach isn't a desperately good source of dietary calcium. It contains a fair amount but it also contains other stuff that prevents it from being absorbed by the body efficiently, at least in people it does; I'm not sure if the same is true of fish.) This seems to have been the only significant change you have made recently so it must be suspicious. The only explanation that springs to mind is it could be caused by Allelopathic chemicals produced by the spinach. I have never heard of such but...
PS. Sorry for the delay answering this but I had an eye-exam today and the drops they put in my eyes made them go "squiffy". They have only just recovered.
-
Sorry Sue....after all the help you've given me, I really wish I could shed some light on your plant problem, but I can't. Garden or houseplants...fine, but aquatic plants...no idea. The only thing I can suggest about your disappearing duckweed is......you've got ninja ducks! ;D
Hope you get it sorted, perhaps Natalia isn't too far away and can help you.
-
Hey Steve, if you can still write Allelopathic then I think your eyes are fine! ;D
As for the plants...... haven't a clue. Sorry.
-
The wonders of Cut & Paste I'm afraid ;D
-
The water parameters were pre-water change.
The bioload is similar in the two tanks - according to the CC they are 63% stocked in the 125 litre and 66% in the 50 (using real volumes of actual water not the manufacturers' volumes)
I didn't have a pH crash, that was the first test I did.
It was plain flourish, the one with trace elements. I don't use flourish excel very often as that made the leaves fall off the hornwort in the 50 litre (the only tank with hornwort). Though I gave up on the hornwort as leaves kept falling off anyway and making a mess on the sand, it was just a lot worse with flourish excel.
The website I found talking about failed moults and lack of calcium in the shrimp's food recommended kale. I don't know what I'd do with a whole pack of kale, it would last several years at the amount I feed them. But I do have frozen chopped spinach in the freezer. I scraped some off the side of a block. I'll stop using it just in case it was that (and it stops the shrimps absorbing calcium)
Any suggestions for calcium rich food suitable for shrimps? Do they make pellets for shrimps that contain calcium?
I did manage to find a few plants of salvinia that were still green. They are now in a tub of dechlorinated water on the windowsill, there's enough to cover maybe 2 square inches. Everything else was brown.
I've had duckweed die off before, I put it down to my aquatic plant growing skills. But it's the first salvinia problem I've had, and the java fern & anubias are still OK. And my african violets look wonderful now they are in flower ;D
Have we had any very hot weather since Jan 2010 until this last few weeks? Maybe Gaynor is right.....
My knee is fine now. I had knelt on the floor to sort out a drawer and got up awkwardly.
I know what you mean about eye exams, Steve. I was diagnosed with intraoccular hypertension (not glaucoma yet as my sight isn't damaged) earlier this year and with check-ups for that and screening for diabetic retinopathy I regularly have drops in my eyes. It looks as though someone has smeared your glasses with vaseline for several hours. I can see I have fish, but can't tell if they have fins ;D
-
Hi again,
I thought it might be heat related because despite the rain it has been quite warm and close, plus when outdoor plants get too much heat the leaves sometimes turn brown. Not that I'm an outdoor plant expert either, but I recently inherited a garden load of potted plants from my hubby's nan, and I'm trying my best to keep them alive. :)
-
You can get specialist shrimp food; One assumes that it contains calcium if shrimps require it, you would have to look at the label to be sure. The biggest problem would be delivery; how do you ensure that the shrimps get the shrimp food before the ravenous hordes descend?
My test was for diabetic retinopathy, it wasn't so much that everything was blurred, although it was, but that everything was so bright it hurt, even my screen!
-
Coming home from these eye tests in the dark, I have to wear sunglasses as headlights are too bright. I find it sort of bleaches everything, and glare is painful.
My last retinopathy screening said I had R1 in my left eye. 10 days later, I was examined by the specialist at the hospital during the follow up visit after starting eye drops for the hypertension, and he could find no trace of it. I do wonder about these screenings as they are just literally a snapshot in time. The doctor at the diabetes clinic said she'd believe the specialist over the screening......
Nearly forgot - I'll have a look and see what I can find re shrimp food. have to be careful with googling though as last time I had a quick look, most of the hits were for fish food containing shrimp :-\
-
I've just bought some Hikari Shrimp Cuisine on ebay - it's impossible to find specialist food locally. I'll feed that instead of spinach from now on. Hopefully it will help with the shrimps (it says it contains minerals to help with successful ecdysis) and not kill any more plants.
-
Hi all,
There is something about this forum which makes me to return and have a look as a guest... Then I see something, which I know the answer to, and to prevent further mistakes/help out/just because I know the problem is solved – I log in... Sorry for inconsistency.
Sue, Gaynor is actually absolutely right – this is the heat and light which caused the damage to your plants. It has been a few not so warm summers, so the effect of overheating did not show. This summer so far is warmer than of recent. As far as I remember/could figure out you have tanks with hoods. So, the lights heat the air between the hood and the water surface. Floaters need good air circulation to thrive – this is why they thrive in ponds. As you did not do your regular water change in 7 days (e.g. did not lift the hood), the conditions under the hood brought the plants to the breaking point – they simply “cooked” (or “boiled” whatever term is best). There is also such thing called “lensing” – when drops of water from evaporation land on floaters’ leaves and with the light bulbs being directly above them in closed environment these drops act as “lenses” (like magnifying glass) increasing the effect of lighting – effectively burning the floaters’ leaves. There is nothing more to this problem. You will be able to grow them as long as you just lift the hoods of your tanks regularly to let fresh air in and shake off excess evaporation...
On a different note (I know it was a separate post – sorry Steve!) your and Jesnon’s shrimp may be suffering from a shrimp specific bacterial infection. I know that some people swear by Seachem Paraguard to cure these but personally I use milder and more natural remedy as a preventative measure (that what it is actually) – it is called Beta G. It is a powder which is beneficial to fish as well as shrimps...
-
On a different note (I know it was a separate post – sorry Steve!)
No apology required; I'm sorry, but I think I'm a little puzzled by this. The only thing I can come up with is the couple of posts I have made about off-topic or chained posts. If so let me stress to everyone, I have no intention of becoming the off-topic police. You may post what you like where you like. On the other hand, I reserve my right to comment if I think it may be better discussed elsewhere.
On a different note ;) you say
This summer so far is warmer than of recent.
Now I'm not disputing the cause of the problem is as you suggest; God knows, you know more about this stuff than I do, but I have to say that my summer has been far from "warmer than of recent". Quite the opposite in fact!
-
I am very grateful for your 'inconsitency' Natalia :D
It has been very hot recently in the north east, hotter than I remember it for a couple of years. (Teesside is sandwiched between North Yorkshire and Co Durham)
Yes, my tanks do have hoods. The Juwel Rio 125 has a light bar running side to side in the middle of the tank with full width flaps attached to it front and back. I just lift the front lid to put food in, then shut it again. There are two cutouts in the back of the tank in the rim on top of the glass where the cables go through. They are just big enough to take the tubes from an external filter.
The Eheim Aquastar 54 has a single moulded lid with two flaps at the front, one bigger than the other. I feed the fish (and remove dead shrimps) through the larger one, then shut it. The lid has two cutouts at the back for cables.
So if it is the heat that killed the plants, would it help if I left a flap open on each tank when it's hot? Or would that not be sufficient? The very few Salvinia plants that were still alive are in an open topped tub on the window sill so at least they shouldn't boil, though they might get too cold?
I had not considered the lens effect of condensation dropping onto the leaves, though I am very careful not to leave droplets of water on the leaves of my houseplants because of this lens effect. An example of inconsistency on my part.
My cherry shrimps - I had not come across shrimp bacterial infections in my researches on google. The closest I could find to the symptoms was a failed moult - the dead shrimps all had a white split across their backs. I've just looked for Beta G and see that it says it does help with moulting problems. I'll buy some straight away.
Thank you Natalia.
-
Thank you for your post Natalia, hopefully your plant problems will be gone now Sue! I was up in Durham at the weekend actually and it was really hot on the Friday - not at all how I remember my times up North at Uni!
It is nice to see your posts here so do please keep popping back! I could do with some plant advice but I think I really need to look more into the actual plants I have and how to look after them properly! My java fern is looking a little rough around the edges, and the 'forked' version of java fern isn't looking too good recently except it has what seems like lots of roots growing out of the leaves - is that normal!?
If the treatment Beta G won't do any harm to my shrimp / fish if there is no problem I think I might as well get some and try it too! I don't want to lose any more shrimp, they are already a little thin on my ground at 4 now :-( I'm reluctant to buy any more until I've not lost any shrimp for a while. Will have a read up on it and source some :-)
-
Sorry to double post and for the stupidity but I'm having some problems finding the product as when I google I keep finding a lot of posts about betta fish instead!
Is this the right kind of thing?
http://www.tankscape.co.uk/Genchem-Beta-G-Lucans-50g-Shrimp-Molting-Aid
It sounds right!
-
I hope it's the right stuff because that's what I've bought. I'm just waiting for it to arrive. Bought it yesterday so in theory I should have had it today. Maybe tomorrow.
-
My java fern is looking a little rough around the edges, and the 'forked' version of java fern isn't looking too good recently except it has what seems like lots of roots growing out of the leaves - is that normal!?
It's how they reproduce. They grow little plantlets at the end of the leaf. These break off and float around until they find a new place to settle. You can just pick them off when they grow to a handleable size and place them to your liking.
-
Ooh that's good then at least that's a somewhat positive sign that my poor plants aren't doing too badly!
Where did you order your beta-g from Sue? I've not ordered any fishy related things from anywhere other than Amazon before so wasn't sure if you had a reputable online source for yours as I'm always slightly sceptical about these things!
-
Errrr....ebay :-[
I would have been sceptical if Natalia hadn't recommended it.
-
Ha fair enough Sue, you do like Ebay! It's not the product itself I'm sceptical about (as you say, Natalia recommended it and it seems like it makes sense to me!) so much as the website. Mine has been dispatched now from TankScape so I'm hoping it should all be fine, I just haven't used the website before and paranoia does tend to get the better of me!
-
The main reason I use ebay is that I have an account already and I can pay by paypal. Too many other shops want a debit/credit card.
-
Very true, I need to update my paypal account really since it's out of date now as I'm the opposite - I only want to use my debit card!
-
Hi Sue, Steve and Jesnon,
Steve – I did not mean to portray you as a “in-house police”. It was meant to be rather flattering, in fact – a sane person around with logic... And as for the heat – you are in London, aren’t you? It is probably the only place in the UK where it is colder than it used to be in summers of the last few years but it is actually much warmer elsewhere! My recollection of the last summer (hugely inaccurate and exaggerated) is of a one with rain non-stop 24/7 and the daytime temperatures being somewhat “not right” – about +12 to + 15...with an occasional “balmy day” with a “hot” +18 and just clouds... Last summer with a few days with +23 or so here was in 2006, if I remember correctly... You lucky Londoners!
Sue, - thanks for the kind words! I simply cannot just ignore things when I can help – and this will (hopefully) help aquarium fauna and flora (which is, in a way, also “aquatic pets” as they are living things)...
I think temperature wise your Salvinia will be fine in a tub but it has got rather used to the aquarium water which will be different to tap water, so I would pop it back in... With the flaps open – it is certainly a thing to try. There are a few unknown “parameters” like: how much air movement around your tanks (people passing, doors/windows open/closed, etc.). Anyway, it is certainly worth a try. I would separate the Salvinia into two portions and add it to each tank – and see what happens. It may be it will be doing better in one than in another...
As for the Beta G: it contains Beta Glucans (sorry, this is obvious, really). Beta Glucans are known to help shrimp keepers/breeders – the ones which deal with more challenging shrimp. The reports are that the mortality rates are significantly reduced when adding Beta Glucans. In any case – this is not a miracle cure but it helps and if even it does not (something else is causing shrimp’s mortality) it is absolutely harmless and I think that it is at least neutral or possibly even quite good for fish as well. I have a tank with rare wild caught in China Caridinas. I have had a few deaths which was frustrating and expensive – at £8 + per shrimp. I started adding Beta G and I have not had any fatalities for a while now. As I accidentally bought two packets and only a small amount is needed every time, I thought I would start adding Beta G to every tank during a water change (some of them have shrimps and some don’t). I have not noticed any significant improvement in my fish but they are all fundamentally healthy so I could not expect them to be “even better”, really... The fish are ranging from Burmese Rosy loaches to Melanotaenia Australis with anything in between...
Jesnon, -first of all: thanks! I do get frustrated by militant ignorance and lack of common sense – this is true... but my intensions at all times are to put things right (ONLY when I know the answer!). Steve is absolutely right about the little plantlets on your Windelov fern – they are little “babies”! What slightly – only slightly! – concerns me is the fact they are produced in numbers (if I understood this correctly). They do produce one or two over a long period but they start producing more either if they are very happy or very unhappy (survival instinct in plants, believe it or not!). “Unhappy” is most likely, to be honest... So, if your main plant is not spreading and growing new leaves but just producing plantlets in quantities – then there might be a slight problem. This is not anything to panic about – it all can be resolved...
-
I put the Salvinia back into the 125 litre this afternon - it always did better in that tank rather than the smaller one - as I was afraid it would get too cold on the kitchen window sill. It's been cold enough the last couple of nights for me to take my african violets off the bedroom window sills. I'll move a small bit to the smaller tank.
When it gets hot again, I'll prop the lids open, see if that keeps the air circulating better. The 125 litre is in the lounge next to the door into the kitchen, while the 50 litre is in the kitchen; the back door is not quite opposite the tank.
I bought some beta g on Monday and I'm still waiting for it to arrive - it was apparently posted on Monday first class but it didn't come today. I haven't had any shrimp deaths for a few days (though now I've said that there's bound to be another) but I intend using the beta g as soon as it gets here.
It is interesting that it is only the cherry shrimp in the 50 litre tank that are dying. I bought 5 Caridina japonica (or is it C. multidenta nowadays?) four and a half years ago. I lost one within a few days and a female last year. The remaining female and 2 males are still going strong. The female shrimp is bigger than most fish in the tank, only the male Apistogramma cacatuoides is bigger, and the Ambastaia sidthimunki are about the same size.
Is this just luck, or are different shrimp species more prone to bacterial infections?
-
... And as for the heat – you are in London, aren’t you? It is probably the only place in the UK where it is colder than it used to be in summers of the last few years but it is actually much warmer elsewhere!
Do I get the impression that the rest of the country has been swanning round in swimsuits and spf30 whilst I have been shivering in my long-johns and winter duvet! Swines! :)
Is this just luck, or are different shrimp species more prone to bacterial infections?
To use some of my logic (See post above ;D) it would seem plain that this may be so. Your Cherries are Neocaridina heteropoda. So are a load of other types of shrimp; there's "red" "yellow" "bumble bee" "blue", "rili", and loads of others. These are colour varieties produced by selective breeding. This is probably not going to end well; much like guppies!
It reminds me of a similar thing I encountered in Germany when I worked there a while ago. I ended up in this tiny place miles from anywhere. As I fought my way blearily through my mental fog the first morning in town (tiredness, definitely not a hangover as one of my so-called colleagues remarked!), I kept getting accosted by this ugly little sod, sorry german, with the look of quasimodo about him. It was only after he started yammering on about bells and calling me Esmerelda for the umpteenth time that I cottoned onto the fact that it was actually many ugly sods not just one. They could all have been "cast from the same mould" as any campanologist might put it! Inbreeding in action!
-
... And as for the heat – you are in London, aren’t you? It is probably the only place in the UK where it is colder than it used to be in summers of the last few years but it is actually much warmer elsewhere!
Do I get the impression that the rest of the country has been swanning round in swimsuits and spf30 whilst I have been shivering in my long-johns and winter duvet! Swines! :)
It would seem so. A week or so ago, my mother even had to get out her electric fan as she was so hot ;D
It is raining now though. My husband is very relieved, he was talking hosepipes. And on the subject of hosepipes, the area I live has not had a hosepipe ban since we moved here 22 years ago. All down to the 'white elephant' called Kielder Water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielder_Water). Northumbrian Water has had the last laugh. So I don't have to feel guilty about water changes :D
-
It's wet and miserable here - where d'you guys live who've got good weather?
Resa will now tell us exactly how hot and sunny it is in the South of France >:(
-
I did say it was raining today!
The very hot weather was when when my husband had a week off work (10 to 14 June) and a few days the week after. My husband went back to work looking like he'd been on the beach in the Med for a week instead of pottering in the garden. I did a water change on Sat 22 June, that's when I found the dead plants. The previous water change was Thurs 13th (or possibly Wed 12th) and it was very hot the rest of that week and the weekend.
It was a well known fact in my home town that whenever my father had time off work it would be nice weather. People used to find out when he was on holiday and book the same week off ;D My husband seems to have inherited this ability since my Dad died. He's off again 15 to 19 July so we shall see if it works then. Now I've said that we'll have snow ;D
-
Ahh Sue - so it was your husband we owe the good weather to! Make sure he has more holidays please ;D
My Beta-G arrived yesterday - I didn't finish work until 10 so haven't done anything with it yet (miraculously it actually fit in my postbox for a change and I didn't need to arrange for redelivery!). I'll be adding that today at some point and hopefully I'll be sticking to 4 shrimps (plus any babies...!) for a long time!
Steve is absolutely right about the little plantlets on your Windelov fern – they are little “babies”! What slightly – only slightly! – concerns me is the fact they are produced in numbers (if I understood this correctly). They do produce one or two over a long period but they start producing more either if they are very happy or very unhappy (survival instinct in plants, believe it or not!). “Unhappy” is most likely, to be honest... So, if your main plant is not spreading and growing new leaves but just producing plantlets in quantities – then there might be a slight problem. This is not anything to panic about – it all can be resolved...
Hmm I suspect you're right that it's not good news! I think to be honest I haven't had much luck with this plant since I got it... I had an absolute nightmare trying to attach it to my bogwood in the first place and not being the most patient person and struggling with fiddly things like that I kept getting angrier and angrier! I took off all the babies when I did my last water change but the whole thing is looking a little barren to be honest... I think the problem I had from square one was attaching it to the wood, and even now whenever I move the wood to gravel clean underneath / search for missing shrimp parts of the plant just float off! Since I got my typical java fern I think I realised I made a huge mistake separating out the roots of the plant so much when I should have left them in one big clump :-\
In better news the other plants seem much happier... so I'm not really sure what to do about this java!
-
My Beta-G arrived yesterday
Mine still hasn't come and the seller said it was posted first class on Monday :(
-
Ooh that's annoying and very strange! Hopefully it's just delayed in the post. If it helps I was utterly bewildered by how to properly dose it in my tank and added a very small blob (since apparently 1/5 of the spoon is for 100l! So that's... 1/25 for me!?... I'm waiting until you get yours and have worked it out!! However I did also finally find my shrimp's food that I lost for ages which they seemed happy with. I'm wondering whether I should try and get a couple more shrimps - maybe at least one other definite male? Since I'm hoping they have little shrimpy babies at some point!
-
Hi Jesnon - I use elastic bands to fit a Java fern to bogwood. Give it 5 or 6 weeks then cut off the band and remove it. The tank looks a bit funky with some coloured bands in it - but it works every time for me.
-
I think I might have to do that I had no luck with string!
Well today I found a shrimp skin and my 4 shrimp still alive and well so hopefully this is a good sign!
-
And I found a shrimp skin yesterday even though I don't have any beta g yet.
-
I think I may have lost another of my shrimps... no sign of my fourth shrimp since I got back from work this morning. However I had this problem the other day and found her a while later so I'm hoping that's the case today...
-
Hi all,
Sue, I would be REALLY worried if your shrimps molted only when you add Beta G! Beta G is not a miracle cure for everything but just a supposedly natural substance which assists dwarf shrimp with many of their challenges in aquariums – that’s it.
Dwarf shrimps fundamentally are much more sensitive than Amanos and should not be compared just because they are shrimps... We all know that Malawi’s are very different to Rasboras – so shrimps have to be treated in the same way.
Continuing Steve’s (very correct imo) line of logical thinking about breeding and weakening of the shrimps, there are many other factors. Amanos – as we all know – only reproduce in brackish water. Therefore their habitats are very diverse – and hence their adaptability and extreme resilience. Dwarf shrimps do not have that.
Cherry shrimps are one of the easiest dwarf shrimps, it is true. I’ll tell you some of my own experience. About three years ago (one of our recent very harsh winters), I decided to remove Riccia from a tank with Cherry shrimps (I was getting bored with it as I do...). I had a thought about selling it or even giving it away as it was healthy so did not get rid of it but filled a small tub with water and put it in. I put it in a North facing conservatory next to the very north window. Frosts arrived, I got distracted, etc., etc. – so I did not check on it in a couple of months. By that time there were 10 (!) healthy and well young Cherry shrimps in there – I obviously had missed the tiny babies when I removed the plant. They were growing there happily – no water changes, temperatures + 15 at best when the heating was on and much lower when the heating was off, no feeding (they fed off the plant and micro-algae, I believe). So, they are not THAT weak. However, they are much more sensitive than fish... Hence, I remember, I opposed a suggestion for Jesnon to have some Crystal Red shrimps – they are much more fragile than the Cherries.
What kills these shrimps is not catering for their specific requirements and alien bacteria. By alien bacteria I mean the bacteria they are not used to and therefore being perfectly harmless otherwise it can kill them just because they are not used to it and do not have an immunity to it. This is as simple as that... Also, dwarf shrimps are VERY sensitive to sudden water parameters change - even a large water change done too quickly can harm them.
Another thing – harassment from fish. Even some tiny fish can be upsetting for dwarf shrimps – like with fish, compatibility matters a great deal... Expensive, rare and otherwise cherished shrimps are often kept on their own by shrimps enthusiasts.
The bottom line is – shrimps have to be treated in the same way as fish with plenty of research, trial and error and a back up plan...
-
Hi Natalia - I think I phrased my post clumsily. What I meant was that I had actually had a shrimp go through a moult successfully as evidenced by the shed skin, and done it all by itself. I meant to say that I wasn't attributing it to Beta G as a 'miracle cure' because I hadn't added any yet.
I wasn't sure if the bacterial infections affected all shrimp or whether only certain species became infected by any given bacterium, similar to neon tetra disease not affecting different species of fish. And I do realise that different species of shrimps will react differently in the same way that neons are more delicate than, say, harlequin rasboras.
Do I understand you to mean that my tank will have different bacteria in it than the shop tank, so the shrimps might have been affected by not having resistance to my tank bacteria? In the same way that students arriving at university for the first time come down with all sorts of infections as they are not 'used to' the the water etc in their new homes.
The cherry shrimps are in the same tank as male endlers and pygmy cories. The endlers spend most of their time (or at least when I'm watching them) chasing each other. But the cories spend their time in and out of the decor on the bottom of the tank. Would either of these stress the shrimps badly? I do have baby cories in the tank.....
I would love to keep these shrimps in their own tank. I could move the endlers into the 125 litre, but with Apistigramma cacatuoides and Ambastaia sidthimunki in there I won't risk the cories. And my husband would go mad if I set up another tank >:(
-
Thanks for your post Natalia - I'm hoping there's less 'error' on my part soon, I don't like the idea that I'm a shrimp murderer! :-( Impressive story about your shrimp babies survival! Not sure if you caught my other post - but I discovered the other day all of my shrimp are actually female... so I'm potentially buying more shrimp soon (hopefully a male or two) as I'd love to see some baby shrimps and bring up my numbers again. I always assumed my endlers would be harmless enough to my shrimp, especially since the shrimp are the same size, but I guess the lack of any shrimp bodies is probably evidence enough that they aren't quite so angelic as I believed!
-
Hi Sue,
Ah, O.K. I was worried that you thought about Beta G as of something “one thing solves all you problems”...
I just re-read my post and I can see how my work affects my posts. I write about 200 emails a day most of which can be interpreted legally if the need would be (a dispute, claim, etc.), so I tend and need to use quite a specific language. I just realised that it affects me in my private life. Whenever I write something factual, I tend to “slip” into that official language... So, my post does sound "official" (sigh...)... :(
Yes, this is what I believe after reading about and from my own experience – your comparison to students is spot on. The more shrimps are moved around the more they are affected. You LFS tanks will be different to yours but it is even worse when the shrimps are moved to your LFS from even further afield and then to your home tank. This is a lot of stress and a lot of new bacteria to cope with. That’s where Beta G is supposed to help (I cannot fault it from my experience, really).
Pygmy corries are fine with the Cherries – I keep them together. I do not have experience of keeping them with Endlers though. Size wise, habits wise, etc. they should be O.K. in theory as far as I can judge, I think one of the indicators of a happy shrimp is that they do not hide all the time (some hiding is perfectly normal) but swim around freely when they feel like it – with all fish around. Happy shrimps just go about their business completely ignoring the fish or even (like mine often do) treating the fish in the same way as plants or decor – just “something on their way” (mine regularly land on the fish using them as a sort of “landing point” or an object convenient to be on at the moment for whatever reason – mainly getting closer to food).
Hi Jesnon, Hmm, maybe Endlers are not so angelic, indeed. Since I kept Guppies as I child, I sort of went “done this before” when I returned to fish keeping later on, so I never had Guppies or related Endlers... I don’t know but they may be prone to hunting down shrimps' babies as well (they are quick so they have a good chance). So, maybe some fluffy real or artificial plant will help... Another thought – when you go to get some more shrimps, it is good to try to get them from some local aquarium enthusiast selling them rather than a shop – they will be born in a water similar to yours and not shipped from far away (as many LFS’s ones are). Aquarist classified, Ebay – have a look if there is anything available.
-
oh no, Jesnon :( Hope you find your shrimpy ok
-
Natalia - as a chemistry graduate I was used to writing in a very technical way. Then I became 'editor' (ie I wrote it) of the Neighbourhood Watch magazine and at first found it difficult writing as though I was talking to the readers. Some of the articles in the early days read more like a technical manual. So I do understand what you mean.
Now I've gone the other way, I don't write precisely enough :-[
On a slightly different topic - has anyone had problems with aquarist classifieds? I have read warnings not to use the site because of trojans. I have used it in the past with no problems, but not being very computer literate I'm wary of going there now. Is there any way I can check before entering the site? Norton doesn't find anything, but that's not proof to me.
-
oh no, Jesnon :( Hope you find your shrimpy ok
Unfortunately it's not looking too good. I did a water change earlier and moved all the decor around and I still can only spot 3 shrimps, half the number I started with :(
I think one of the indicators of a happy shrimp is that they do not hide all the time (some hiding is perfectly normal) but swim around freely when they feel like it – with all fish around. Happy shrimps just go about their business completely ignoring the fish or even (like mine often do) treating the fish in the same way as plants or decor – just “something on their way” (mine regularly land on the fish using them as a sort of “landing point” or an object convenient to be on at the moment for whatever reason – mainly getting closer to food).
Hi Jesnon, Hmm, maybe Endlers are not so angelic, indeed. Since I kept Guppies as I child, I sort of went “done this before” when I returned to fish keeping later on, so I never had Guppies or related Endlers... I don’t know but they may be prone to hunting down shrimps' babies as well (they are quick so they have a good chance). So, maybe some fluffy real or artificial plant will help... Another thought – when you go to get some more shrimps, it is good to try to get them from some local aquarium enthusiast selling them rather than a shop – they will be born in a water similar to yours and not shipped from far away (as many LFS’s ones are). Aquarist classified, Ebay – have a look if there is anything available.
Natalia your description of shrimp using fish as landing spots - ha! This is where I'm a little confused as my shrimp do honestly seem very happy. The reason I can easily spot when one has gone missing is because they don't often hide and if I sit long enough in front of the tank I can usually find them all - they seem to really like hanging out together most of the time, and will swim around quite happily and never seem to really take any notice of the fish. They seem really attached to two of my artificial plants as they're always resting on the leaves, and especially love to hide inbetween some of the leaves.
One odd thing I've noticed with my shrimp who's developed the saddle is that she keeps swimming eratically upside down!? She seems happy otherwise, but every now and then she dashes about upside down throughout the tank, especially around my algae magnet. Not really sure if this is normal shrimp behaviour or not! Perhaps since she's got eggs she's searching for a male shrimp.
When you say fluffy plants - what kind of fluffy plant do you think I could grow OK in my low light setup? I do have quite a few plants in there now, I've got the two large artificial plants that my shrimp love, one moss ball, a big java fern I've put on one of my rocks, the 'pronged' java fern (I can't remember what it's official name is!) which is on both of my bog wood (though I might give one of the bits up as a bad job on one of them as it just will not stay put!) and then another plant near the front of my tank that I've completely forgotten the name of. No fluffy plants though as you say! My tank is looking a little full these days, but if I won't kill off the plant too easily and it might help my shrimpies then I'm happy to make some changes (I think since you're so good at aquascaping and with plants Natalia you would probably look at my poor tank and cry, it's not very well set up these days!)
I've never thought to buy locally to be honest. I know one of my LFS tends to buy off of local breeders rather than ship in, and I always assumed because the MA is just down the road our water would be very similar but as you say they probably aren't bred here. I'll have to investigate whether I can get some RCS locally. The idea of postal orders when it comes to fish and shrimp still confuses me though!
-
Hi Jesnon and Sue,
Sue – I am glad you understand what I mean. I certain style of writing sort of “sticks” to you...
I have not had a problem with aquarist classifieds, to be honest. Only that here is an amazing number of fraudsters lurking there, it seems. They even issued a warning about that – people offering to buy from you stating they are located in, say, Portugal... and asking for your account details “to send the fund to”... I always just deleted these emails not answering (as the warning from AC suggested). Otherwise I did not have any problems.
P.S. I hope your floaters are recovering in spite of the real summer we are having now!
Jesnon – I think you tank has quite a few of live plants which is really good. There is no “fluffy” plant I can immediately think of which will do well in your tank. I am thinking that once grown a little bit, you baby shrimps have enough hideaways already; it is just the new born ones I am worried about. They are literally about a millimetre (the same as the developed eggs on your girlie shrimps). So, I would think, adding a little artificial plant (only a small one) will provide the hiding place for the smallest of the shrimps offspring. Otherwise you are fully prepared for “teenage” shrimplets. The plant has to be really fine – I am thinking like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Artificial-Plastic-Plants-Aquarium-Ornament/dp/B0052WGDJS/ref=sr_1_14/275-0671952-8305750?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1373144092&sr=1-14&keywords=aquarium+plants+plastic
I remember I saw something like this in an LFS – just a bunch of fluffy twigs. Only one or two will do in you tank – I remember they were very cheap. You just need a little bit, I think...
Swimming erratically and upside down is perfectly normal for shrimps. I cannot say if this is because they are searching for partners or whatever but they do this often enough that I am not worried about it. The reason I suggested to buy locally is that the shrimps will be born in water very similar to yours and will not have the stress of being brought from another continent for sale. To my experience, shrimps bought from people locally often look pale (not that nice as in shops) but adapt quicker and survival rate is much higher. And they do colour up in time. One more thing – cherry shrimps are brighter when you have a darker substrate. They change their colour to “match” the environment and they look much paler on white sand then on black gravel – the darker the substrate, the brighter are the Cherries.
-
The small clump of Salvinia that survived is still alive. During the night I leave the feeding flaps open slightly; but during the day, with the temperatures at the moment, I have them fully open. Hopefully no fish will decide to jump out.......
I definitely have four cherry shrimps, 2 adults and 2 juveniles, as I have seen all four at once. There may be others as well. You can only be certain of the number visible at any one time. Since they are out and about, these four must be reasonable happy with their tank mates.
I do have plastic plants similar to the one in the link. I've found newly hatched pygmy cories under one spherical plant (think moss ball shape but plastic) so if the cories can survive in/under those plants, they should be OK for newly hatched cherries as well?
-
Good news on the plant front - I now have a lot more salvinia than I managed to save, so it is growing. This is the plant I used to throw in the compost bin on a regular basis to keep it under control. Leaving the flaps open seems to be working.
But on the shrimp front, I'm now down to just three - one berried female and two juveniles. I assume the adult I found dead during the week was a male as I don't think the juveniles are old enough to fertilise eggs yet.
And the missing pack of Beta G - the seller said to wait until last weekend (giving it 2 working weeks to arrive) then let him know if it still hadn't turned up. It didn't so I did, and he refunded the money straight away, no quibbling.
-
Great news Sue on the plant front, sorry to hear about the shrimp though. And good news you got a refund on the Beta G.
Sorry I thought I had already replied to this but obviously got distracted! I think I've seen a similar plastic plant to that in my local Pets at Home so may have to get myself one of those for when my shrimpies potentially have babies. Unfortunately right now I'm down to 3 from the original 6 I started with - the large bright red shrimp, another deep red and the pale girl with the saddle. Since I'm now moving house I won't be buying any more shrimp until after the move when the tank is settle again as keen as I am to get more shrimp! It just seems like the most sensible thing to do for now.
Do you have any recommendations for the best way to move my shrimpies for the 2 - 3 hours of driving and setting up the tank again? Just the idea of it is stressing me out!
-
The only way I can think of is to bag them like fish but in a separate bag from the endlers. You will need to put something in the bag for the shrimps to stand on so either put them in the same bag as your live plants or give them something like a piece of filter wool.
As a last resort with my shrimps, I've put the berried female in one of my home made breeding traps, the one with the very fine lining. She has a plastic spherical plant and a half coconut shell with java fern coming out of the holes in the trap with her. She's been in there a few days now and seems to be OK. My intention is to try and save as many baby shrimps from being eaten as possible.
-
I hadn't even thought about them having something to stand on! Will definitely bag them with one of my plants.
Ooh that's not a bad idea Sue - will see what happens once I move!
-
The problem is "What do you do with them after they are born?" You can't raise 30-50 baby shrimp in a breeding trap! I'm not really convinced that the baby shrimp will actually stay in the breeding trap; I would expect them to climb out. The only solutions I can think of are 1) a dedicated small tank or 2) loads and loads of dense plants to provide lots of hiding places. Given your track record that really boils down to 1) a dedicated tank. But that will cause issues with TOH.
-
It all depends on
1) will the female live long enough for the eggs to hatch. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as the shrimp have all died trying to moult and she shouldn't moult till the eggs have hatched
2) if the eggs do hatch, how many babies will there be and how many will die immediately
He doesn't object too much to temporary additional tanks, quarantining for example. So if I do end up with any baby shrimp I'll set up the QT till they are big enough to go in with endlers and pygmy cories. If any survive long enough. Because I've no idea how long she's been carrying eggs (it takes the light shining through her abdomen in a certain direction to see them) I've no idea how long it'll be before the eggs hatch. I have read 30 days in total, and it's been a week and a bit since I saw the eggs. I'm fully expecting all the babies to die from what's been killing the adults so I didn't want to set up the QT till I knew I had live babies.
-
Husband is in a good mood, having had the last week off work (his influence on the weather struck again ;D ) and he said I could set up the QT provided it is just temporary. So yesterday I set it up. I used some filter media and water from the tank they were in and moved across the spherical plastic plant, another plastic plant and the coconut shell with java fern. All three shrimps are now in the QT.
Fingers crossed the female does carry the eggs till they hatch, and the babies live. I've even put the toe of a knee high sock over the filter just in case ;D
-
A week later -
One of the juvenile shrimps died during the week, and I found the adult female dead this morning, leaving one juvenile. The adult female corpse did not have any eggs under the abdomen, but I couldn't see any sign of life except for the juvenile shrimp. So I decided to move that one back to the 50 litre and close down the QT.
But being the 'better safe than sorry' type, first I removed all the decor bit by bit, shaking each bit thoroughly in the tank before putting it in the bucket, then I moved the last shrimp - and noticed tiny things moving on the tank bottom. Using airline tubing, I hoovered the muck of the bottom of the tank and realised that besides baby cherry shrimp, I also had baby pygmy cories :)
I checked the bucket that had the decor in and the bucket I siphoned the water into by decanting it a bit at a time into a small plastic tub, and used a pipette that you get with medication with the thin end trimmed off to catch more babies of both species. Took ages, but it was worth it. I now have about 5 baby cories and around a dozen baby shrimp.
The pygmy cories like the spherical plastic plants for laying eggs in, there must have been eggs on the one I moved to the QT last week. I've put that plant back in the 50 litre tank, and put the other one into the QT. You never know!
Now to go and look up how long it takes for pygmy cory eggs to hatch.........
Edit - 3 to 5 days. So if I swap plants every 5 days, there is a chance of there being some eggs on them.
-
Congrats on the little babies! Shame to hear about your adult and juvenile shrimp though :-( Hopefully if it is an immunity style bacteria problem then raising baby shrimps in your tanks will eradicate your problem as they'll be used to the bacteria in your tank? Or have I made that up!?
-
That's what I'm wondering. Only Natalia will know for sure.
I've just had another shrimp death - when I came to feed the fish tonight, I found the female amano in my 125 litre dead. In this case, I wonder if it was her age. I don't know the life expectancy of amano shrimps, but I bought five on 18 Feb 2009 from Maidenhead Aquatics in York (yes I do keep records ;D ). One died shortly after purchase, one female died last year and the other female died today, leaving 2 males. I presume they are in the tank somewhere; I hardly ever see them, and I haven't found any bodies.
Edit - forgot to mention that I finally had the chance to measure the female amano. She was 2 inches/5cm from nose to tail not counting her antennae.
And I've just seen a male in the tank!
-
Oh no poor amano :-( Definitely sounds like old age to me though at least
-
I've just googled it; most sources say amano shrimps (Caridina multidentata) have a life expectancy in captivity of 2 to 3 years, though one website does say up to 4 years. It looks like it was just old age then.
-
That's good news Sue, though still a shame to lose your shrimp at least she had a good old life with you!