Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Tank Plant Advice => Topic started by: Aquamaid on November 25, 2014, 09:48:53 AM
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I'm setting up new 260l tank, i intend (at present) to put substrate of Pool sand and small gravel and then add a good few easy low light plants, should i consider putting a base layer of some sort under planted area a fertalised base maybe? and if so, what would you recommend,
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I would go biffster's method and use a layer of pond compost underneath which will provide plenty of fertility for the plants and would be much less expensive than the supposed specialist aquarium materials.
How do you intend to use sand AND gravel? If you mix them together, or put sand on top of gravel, the smaller sand grains will tend to sink down between the gravel so that you end up with gravel on top.
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AM
I'll be using the Pond Compost method too. I'm also going to use windbreak netting over it. as in that link I sent you (I got 2m of it off ebay, and it came this morning)
Is the 'red' sand that you are going to use the stuff from Maidenhead? They have some tan/dusky stuff that lovs really good.
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j Arthur bowers aquatic compost is the stuff
i use its low in nitrates and plants take to it
quick plus its cheap and cheerful
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Hi all, bit worried that the aquatic pond compost might bump up my Ph? as i am very high/hard water already, and it would need to be well covered i imagine (netting as you say NM) otherwise very muddy water maybe?. iv'e got 25kg of Pool Silica sand, it's a beautiful colour, very ochre yellow sand with black/brown specs in, lovely. i was going to have that in main front three quarters of tank and have gravel on top at the back with large rocks/pebbles as a bit of a divider come barrier. :)
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Pond compost should help stabilise your pH rather than raise it, I can't see any reason why it should do that.
I have ordinary garden soil in all of my tanks under sand or gravel and I've never had the least problem with muddy water. It's buried under an inch or so of the sand or gravel and there's no reason why it should come to the surface. Putting net over it just seems like yet another of those unnecessary extra worries which seem to permeate the world of fish keeping.
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I recently switched from a gravel tank to a planted tank with a soil substrate. I used John Innes compost no 1 for the soil layer and Arthur Bowers lime free silver sand for the top layer. About an inch of each layer. I had no problem with water being muddy. The switch took me one day and I have put all my fish back in the tank in the evening of the same day. A few bits of soil/compost have floated up, but didn't make the water muddy. I did make sure that the sand is very well washed as I didn't want a cloudy water. If you are not in a hurry to put in fish and need to cycle the tank etc, then I'm sure any cloudiness will clear by the time you are ready to introduce fish. My tap water pH is 8.2 and after switching to soil substrate it went down to 7.4 and it's stable at this level. Your water parameters will be different, but the switch worked well for me.
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All this sounds really good. Wish I'd put more thought into my tank before I added plain gravel. Would it be too much stress on the fish if I took gravel out and put in soil substrate with sand on top?
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Thanks all, yes i thought the lime content of some composts would raise the Ph, but if yours has lowered Pawel that's good, as mine is 7.6 and 8.2 on the high reading. I pressume the feeding ability or nutrients of the soil base will leach away after a while, so is it any better than say gravel in the long run?
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Ignore the lower pH tester. 7.6 is the highest that one can go so everything higher than that will still show up as 7.6. You only need to use that one if the high range tester shows the lowest on its scale - because everything below that will still show as the lowest colour.
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Soil will be better than gravel in the long run because of nutrient binding, which basically means that plant nutrients bind to the surface of soil particles and hence are available to plant roots. Because the particles in soil or soil-based compost are much smaller than sand, let alone gravel, they have a much higher surface area and hence much higher binding capacity. In this way, nutrients from the water are constantly replenished in the substrate. Of course, if you are an obsessive gravel vacuumer, there will be less of these nutrients available as they largely come from breakdown of mulm (fish poo etc.)
Soil in general is a much friendlier substrate for plants than sand or gravel. I've surveyed a lot of water-filled former sand and gravel quarries and you never find plants growing in the bare sand or gravel, only in areas where silt has accumulated. That seems to suggest something to me!
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hi aquamaid if anything it will lower
your ph rather than raising it i found that
most shop bought plant substrate raise the ph
be careful which one you buy and make sure you
read up on the one you get before using it :isay:
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Will have a good google of the John Innes range, thanks all, i think a well planted tank is the way to go, infact my 90L looks that nice with plants and decor that i shall probably keep it understocked, don't need lots of fish just a nice balance :))
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Well it looks like i will have to choose between John Innes no 3 or J Arthur bowers aquatic compost for ponds, Miracle Gro and Organic mixes got bad reviews.
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i wouldnt trust anything that is not approved
for aquatic planting a lot of them have ph stabilizers
high nitrate and hi phosphate content i would not recommend
any of the gardening composts only use aquatic approved compost
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Do not use John Innes No 3! It contains the highest level of nutrients, designed for long=term growth of plants in pots and will probably raise the nitrate levels through the roof and fill your tank with an algal bloom
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:yikes: thanks Richard, what do you recomend then, the aquatic pond compost, or innes no 1 or 2 ?
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The pond compost would probably be the most reliable, but personally I reckon JI No. 1 would also be OK as it has very low nutrient levels. No. 1 has the lowest levels, No. 2 the next, No. 3 the highest.
As I use ordinary garden soil in mine and have never had any problems, this isn't very different from JI No. 1. But costs nothing.
Don't forget that there is no point in using a soil layer in a tank unless you intend to have it densely planted. I think you'd need more than the 5 hours of light for that.
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I intend upping the hours of light in this big tank, maybe 9hrs, i dont intend having it more than a third planted, but in the future you never know, so some pond compost or maybe just gravel will do?
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Well, as a believer in soil under gravel, I'd recommend that, but there will also be people who will tell you that they grow plants perfectly well in plain gravel ................ but others who say they can't :)
Don't forget that plants grow and spread, you may start with a third planted but it will need a fair amount of "gardening" to keep it to that.
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I do not recommend anything that is not aquarium approved
john Innis compost is not aquarium approved and could possibly
poison your tank
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No it will not! What "poison" could it contain? "Aquarium approved" is usually just a rip off, like "aquarium sand" all dug up from the same hole in the ground as other sand. Not quite as expensive as RO water, instead of rainwater, but equally pointless. Fish shops are packed with nonsense substrates, additives, treatments and god knows what else, 99% of which are just there to relieve gullible people of more cash.
Who are the people who "approve" things for aquaria? An independent body? No, it's the people who want to sell you their products.
I've only ever used things that are free or cheap, soil from the garden (not approved) lime-free sand from the garden centre (not approved), tap water (not approved), rainwater from the roof (not approved). My fish are all alive, healthy, lively and showing natural behaviour. The only criterion for judging if you are doing things correctly is the health of your fish, not what rules you have followed nor how much time and/or money you spend on your tanks.
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I've got to agree with Richard on this. JI no 1 should be fine. So too, should 'Pond compost' (btw, NOT for aquariums, but ponds!)
The shops are full of nice bright shiny things that cost lots and lots.
I have to sat rhough that a lot of it CAN be useful, or make your tank look the way you think you might like it.
I've looked at supa-dupa aquariums full of expensive and rare plants, on substrates that have probably cost hundreds of pounds, all very nice, but where do you stop? I shall probably use the cheap Pond Compost from B&Q. I think it was about £4.50 for 20l. I may buy some nice red/brown sand from Maidenhead, but that is because I like the look of it, not the fact that it has been prepared in a negative karma free environment by some foreign Johnny in a lab coat who was humming a Zen lullaby to the sand as he packed it!
I'm going to do some meditation now, as I'm all cross...
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :)
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Hi NM, i got a 25kg bag of silica pool filter sand for £15, it is a beautiful colour, that deep ochre yellow with brown and black flecks in, lovely. Yes i think the pond compost is my base layer of choice, will have to put thick layer of gravel over it i think to stop prospective Corys disturbing it lol
Mm :-\ not really any the wiser, only thing available locally is from Maidenhead Aquatics Aqua Soil, otherwise i may just stick to gravel and fertilizer tabs.
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you never know what is in non aquatic based compost
as its not meant to be used in ponds or the aquarium
so care as not been taken so much as to what as gone in to
it where as care as been taken over what as gone in to aquatic
compost to ensure it can be used in ponds and the aquarium
john inis compost in not an aquatic compost it is not an approved
aquatic compost so there for should not be used in the pound
or aquarium where as j Aurthur bowers compost is an approved
aquatic compost and can be used in the pond or aquarium put it
this way i wouldnt use non aquatic compost its not worth the risk
plus aquatic compost is just about the same price or cheaper and its a
peace of mind
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No it will not! What "poison" could it contain? "Aquarium approved" is usually just a rip off, like "aquarium sand" all dug up from the same hole in the ground as other sand. Not quite as expensive as RO water, instead of rainwater, but equally pointless. Fish shops are packed with nonsense substrates, additives, treatments and god knows what else, 99% of which are just there to relieve gullible people of more cash.
Whilst I don't disagree with your post in general terms, R/O water and rainwater are very different. R/O water is a purified version of tap water. Tap water is, to all sensible limits, a pure sterile source. Rainwater may start off in a similar form to R/O water when it leaves a cloud, but from that moment on it is subject to the impurities of it's environment. Firstly it absorbs all sort of chemicals from the atmosphere, have you heard of acid-rain? Secondly, it carries on picking up impurities as it hits your roof, flows through the gutter and then is stored for some indeterminate time in your rain barrel. There it may encounter dead rats, wasp nests, dead leaves, cat's peeing into it, kids tossing in fireworks, and any number of other contaminants that just don't appear in R/O water.
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No it will not! What "poison" could it contain? "Aquarium approved" is usually just a rip off, like "aquarium sand" all dug up from the same hole in the ground as other sand. Not quite as expensive as RO water, instead of rainwater, but equally pointless. Fish shops are packed with nonsense substrates, additives, treatments and god knows what else, 99% of which are just there to relieve gullible people of more cash.
i am speaking from experience not out the back of my neck aquarium approved
means its been selected cleaned and washed when it comes to aquarium sand
and rain water is nowhere near RO water RO water is totally stripped of all it minerals
and contaminates sure i made mistakes in the past with using non approved aquarium
products and paid the price but i learned by my mistakes 43 years i have been fish keeping
and i have made cock ups and i have seen people make and i am still seeing people making
them like asking my advice i give them sound advice then went against because some one had told
them it was ok to use normal every day tree wood and normal every day river sand and did they listen
no and it cost them a lot of money in upside down discus and angels and neons yeah but like
i said thats only my opinion i got an email a few days ago saying quote(i wish i had gone with your advice
instead of trying to cut corners and cost i am selling up and quitting the hobby due to this bad experience)unquote
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Well iv'e gone with Miadenhead Aquatics pond soil, low in nitrogen, so fingers crossed :) Thank's all for the input, good to get a cross section of views.
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pond soil is ideal its aquatic approved soil
for pond baskets and marginal planting
of ponds very similar to j Arthur bowers
aquatic compost good selection aquamaid :)