Plant Base Layer Under Sand/grave?

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Offline Aquamaid

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Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« on: November 25, 2014, 09:48:53 AM »
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I'm setting up new 260l tank, i intend (at present) to put substrate of Pool sand and small gravel and then add a good few easy low light plants, should i consider putting a base layer of some sort under planted area a fertalised base maybe? and if so, what would you recommend,

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2014, 10:20:58 AM »
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I would go biffster's method and use a layer of pond compost underneath which will provide plenty of fertility for the plants and would be much less expensive than the supposed specialist aquarium materials.

How do you intend to use sand AND gravel? If you mix them together, or put sand on top of gravel, the smaller sand grains will tend to sink down between the gravel so that you end up with gravel on top.

Offline naughtymoose

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2014, 10:58:53 AM »
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AM

I'll be using the Pond Compost method too. I'm also going to use windbreak netting over it. as in that link I sent you (I got 2m of it off ebay, and it came this morning)

Is the 'red' sand that you are going to use the stuff from Maidenhead? They have some tan/dusky stuff that lovs really good.

Offline biffster

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2014, 12:34:23 PM »
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j Arthur  bowers aquatic compost is the stuff
i use its low in nitrates and plants take to it
quick plus its cheap and cheerful

Offline Aquamaid

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 01:06:04 PM »
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Hi all, bit worried that the aquatic pond compost might bump up my Ph? as i am very high/hard water already, and it would need to be well covered i imagine (netting as you say NM) otherwise very muddy water maybe?. iv'e got 25kg of Pool Silica sand, it's a beautiful colour, very ochre yellow sand with black/brown specs in, lovely. i was going to have that in main front three quarters of tank and have gravel on top at the back with large rocks/pebbles as a bit of a divider come barrier.  :)

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 01:31:08 PM »
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Pond compost should help stabilise your pH rather than raise it, I can't see any reason why it should do that.
I have ordinary garden soil in all of my tanks under sand or gravel and I've never had the least problem with muddy water. It's buried under an inch or so of the sand or gravel and there's no reason why it should come to the surface. Putting net over it just seems like yet another of those unnecessary extra worries which seem to permeate the world of fish keeping.

Offline Pawel

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 01:35:36 PM »
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I recently switched from a gravel tank to a planted tank with a soil substrate. I used John Innes compost no 1 for the soil layer and Arthur Bowers lime free silver sand for the top layer. About an inch of each layer. I had no problem with water being muddy. The switch took me one day and I have put all my fish back in the tank in the evening of the same day. A few bits of soil/compost have floated up, but didn't make the water muddy. I did make sure that the sand is very well washed as I didn't want a cloudy water. If you are not in a hurry to put in fish and need to cycle the tank etc, then I'm sure any cloudiness will clear by the time you are ready to introduce fish. My tap water pH is 8.2 and after switching to soil substrate it went down to 7.4 and it's stable at this level. Your water parameters will be different, but the switch worked well for me.

Offline steven

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 02:32:07 PM »
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All this sounds really good. Wish I'd put more thought into my tank before I added plain gravel. Would it be too much stress on the fish if I took gravel out and put in soil substrate with sand on top?

Offline Aquamaid

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 02:57:31 PM »
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Thanks all, yes i thought the lime content of some composts would raise the Ph, but if yours has lowered Pawel that's good, as mine is 7.6 and 8.2 on the high reading. I pressume the feeding ability or nutrients  of the soil base will leach away after a while, so is it any better than say gravel in the long run?

Offline Sue

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 04:22:44 PM »
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Ignore the lower pH tester. 7.6 is the highest that one can go so everything higher than that will still show up as 7.6. You only need to use that one if the high range tester shows the lowest on its scale - because everything below that will still show as the lowest colour.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 04:32:48 PM »
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Soil will be better than gravel in the long run because of nutrient binding, which basically means that plant nutrients bind to the surface of soil particles and hence are available to plant roots. Because the particles in soil or soil-based compost are much smaller than sand, let alone gravel, they have a much higher surface area and hence much higher binding capacity. In this way, nutrients from the water are constantly replenished in the substrate. Of course, if you are an obsessive gravel vacuumer, there will be less of these nutrients available as they largely come from breakdown of mulm (fish poo etc.)

Soil in general is a much friendlier substrate for plants  than sand or gravel. I've surveyed a lot of water-filled former sand and gravel quarries and you never find plants growing in the bare sand or gravel, only in areas where silt has accumulated. That seems to suggest something to me!

Offline biffster

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 04:56:28 PM »
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hi aquamaid if anything it will lower
your ph rather than raising it i found that
most shop bought plant substrate raise the ph
be careful which one you buy and make sure you
read up on the one you get before using it  :isay:

Offline Aquamaid

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 06:05:01 PM »
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Will have a good google of the John Innes range, thanks all, i think a well planted tank is the way to go, infact my 90L looks that nice with plants and decor that i shall probably keep it understocked, don't need lots of fish just a nice balance  :))

Offline Aquamaid

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 07:06:35 PM »
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Well it looks like i will have to choose between John Innes no 3 or J Arthur bowers aquatic compost for ponds, Miracle Gro and Organic mixes got bad reviews.

Offline biffster

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2014, 03:22:07 AM »
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i wouldnt trust anything that is not approved
for aquatic planting a lot of them have ph stabilizers
high nitrate and hi phosphate content i would not recommend
any of the gardening composts only use aquatic approved compost   

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2014, 07:11:59 AM »
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Do not use John Innes No 3! It contains the highest level of nutrients, designed for long=term growth of plants in pots and will probably raise the nitrate levels through the roof and fill your tank with an algal bloom

Offline Aquamaid

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2014, 10:28:43 AM »
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 :yikes: thanks Richard, what do you recomend then, the aquatic pond compost, or innes no 1 or 2 ?

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2014, 10:34:33 AM »
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The pond compost would probably be the most reliable, but personally I reckon JI No. 1 would also be OK as it has very low nutrient levels. No. 1 has the lowest levels, No. 2 the next, No. 3 the highest.

As I use ordinary garden soil in mine and have never had any problems, this isn't very different from JI No. 1. But costs nothing.

Don't forget that there is no point in using a soil layer in a tank unless you intend to have it densely planted. I think you'd need more than the 5 hours of light for that.

Offline Aquamaid

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2014, 10:47:10 AM »
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I intend upping the hours of light in this big tank, maybe 9hrs, i dont intend having it more than a third planted, but in the future you never know, so some pond compost or maybe just gravel will do?

Offline Richard W

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Re: Plant base layer under sand/grave?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2014, 11:36:10 AM »
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Well, as a believer in soil under gravel, I'd recommend that, but there will also be people who will tell you that they grow plants perfectly well in plain gravel ................ but others who say they can't  :)

Don't forget that plants grow and spread, you may start with a third planted but it will need a fair amount of "gardening" to keep it to that.

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